 So, again, welcome to Cooper Hewitt's National Design Week celebrating our 20th year this year. Today's Winner Salon, 20x20, shares the National Design Award winners with you through 20 20-minute programs, so not ambitious at all. This is the first program, and my name is Andrea Lips. I'm an Associate Creator of Contemporary Design here at the Museum, and I'm honored to moderate the discussion between Tinker Hatfield, who is our winner for product design, and Scott Datich, who is the executive producer and creator of Abstract the Art of Design. So our design topic today will focus on storytelling through design, because my gosh, Tinker, you have so many stories. So this is going to be fun, inspiring, and fast, so let's get started. First of all, I absolutely love the lens of storytelling that you used and explored with the film. So Scott, Tinker, of course, has a lot of great stories. Tell us about one that did not make the cut. This was sort of tough because part of the casting process, part of the research process that we used to create the film that was directed so beautifully by Brian Oakes, is a conversational approach. That moment inside his little airstream in his studio, that was what, a four or five-hour conversation that we had, and just filled with stories. And I'd have a hard time picking out just one that didn't make it, but obviously the one about Michael being out on the golf course was pretty remarkable and what that led to, and the dawn of Jordan from three beyond. But I love the part about Michael's dad yelling at him after that meeting. That didn't quite make the episode, but maybe I'll get you in trouble here, Tinker. The story is quite simple. I said in the piece that the founder of Nike and still the big boss, he still to this day thinks I saved Nike because of that design to keep Michael Jordan at our company. Because Phil was there, he watched the whole thing happen, but I asked Michael like three or four years later, I said, so what really kept you with us? He goes, well, the shoe was amazing. I couldn't believe you came up with that and all that, and he goes, but right after the presentation, I was out in the parking lot, and my dad grabbed me, turned me around, and his dad was like six feet tall, Michael's six, six, and his dad's looking at him. Son, don't you ever disrespect your mother and your father and me, and Phil might like that again because he kept us all waiting for four hours before he showed up. And so Michael says, I'm sorry, dad. So Michael's telling me this, and Michael goes on to say that he asked, then he asked his father, well, what should I do? And his father said, son, you can tell that they can do the work. It's guaranteed, you can work a new deal, some guaranteed money, don't go anyplace else. So I'm like, so it wasn't just the shoe, and he goes, well, no, it wasn't just this shoe. I said, well, you know what? How about we just keep that between the two of us? And he did. So Phil might still think, so that story didn't, I think maybe didn't make it because I pleaded with Scott not to put it in, I think is probably what happened. The wisdom of parents. So Tinker, you're an athlete and still very active as we saw, you've been in the film. Beyond you're being an athlete and it's leading to your connection to Bill, how does your own experience being very active as an athlete shape your designs, your shoe designs? I think I was always, always an athlete first, you know, for a long, long time, and had some success. And then, you know, as depicted in the piece, I got hurt, and I had to sort of reevaluate what I was doing with my life, and it wasn't like I was going to go on and maybe set a world record or anything after that. So I had to sort of knuckle down, you know, and become more focused on trying to be, you know, learn the process and the art of design. But the good news, kind of later on, was that not only did I go to architecture school and learn how to design complex things and solve problems, but I had already been that athlete in the past so I could sit down with somebody like Michael Jordan and completely understand the emotion, the hard work, the lingo, everything that kind of goes into performing at that level, and it made it much easier for me then to design the products. So that was sports and the designs were coming together. Yeah, it was a unique connection because I guess you could say most designers maybe don't quite have, or at least in my experience it's not a common combination. Seeing that early on in our conversations as we talked about Tinker's participation in the series, that was so clear to us and it was so resonant because every one of those designs was so purpose-oriented that it was oriented around solving problems and that gave us such a wonderful opportunity to expose his genius because we could actually do it through story. And actually Scott, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. How did you decide to include Tinker in the series? I will embarrass him a little bit by going into the depths of my fandom for him and he is truly a hero of mine and has been for so many years sort of been able to meet him and work with him and now call him a friend is just incredible for me. But he was right on our list, he was at the top of our list as we started to conceive of the show and Dave O'Connor and I had him right in our crosshairs and we went to go see him and talk about our ambition for the show and of course it didn't exist at the time and really he trusted us and the entire Nike team really trusted us and it was a discovery that we went on together and as a crew it took almost 300 people to make the series and to be able to focus attention on a craftsperson and a leader and a teacher Light Tinker was really important to us, it was really important to the design community at large. And I'm glad that I didn't want to do it. Interesting. Because our PR department approached me, I think because Scott went through proper channels and set up this and I said, I don't know, I don't want to be followed around and talk, you know, I'm busy, blah, blah, blah, but so what happened was that there was a meeting set up and it occurred in that airstream and so Scott and I talked for several hours as he mentioned and it was, I think he was interviewing me to see if I was interesting enough to put some time and energy into it and I was sort of interviewing him as to whether I didn't want to do it in the first place and it was, we came out of that airstream just really understanding each other and we were already friends and I couldn't say no at all. In fact, it looked, it sounded to me like it was actually going to be a lot of fun. And was it? It was a blast. Every bit of it was a total blast. Did you see me crash on that skateboard? I love that that made the cut. Well, yeah, so that was me being stupid, but I'm going down the street and there's a van filming me on that skateboard and they're kind of telling me, trying to tell me to go this way or that way and I'm kind of, and they said, no, go buy the van and we'll get you skating off down the street from behind and I, in a moment of, I would call this a lapse of good judgment, I decided to go right at the camera. Instead of going past it, I just veered and went right at the camera, crashed into the van, the camera and kind of roll out of it and nobody got hurt, well, the camera maybe, I don't know. But anyway, what was funny was that they kept it rolling and you see the skateboard which bounced off of the camera and the van and everybody else and then it bounced right back into the frame and it was funny at the time, but it was even more funny to see it actually end up in the piece. So that sort of lapse of good judgment is also part of the risk-taking that sometimes leads you to do more exciting and interesting stuff. Totally. How long did it take to film that episode altogether? I think we were at it for what, six or seven months, all told. We have a process, we designed a process really around not taking too much time out of his life and because as busy as all the subjects are and we want to really spend some time getting to know their story and he guided the story as much as anyone and as a producer and storyteller, then we go in and we actually craft the moments that we know we're going to be resonant. So we have really some sense where we're going with it, it's sort of a magazine-like approach certainly with my background in magazines. We all sort of articulated that, but it was something we did a couple days here and we go away for six weeks and we come back for a day or two and then go away. That allowed the story to also progress as he was building the Earl. Yeah, it was to me, they really didn't interrupt my flow of work and it was fun and I got to be friends with Brian, the director and the cameramen and of course Scott and I have to tell you that the more I learned about Scott and the more friendly we became I started to realize that he was a great designer as well. He's the managing editor of Wired Magazine at the time and also doing this TV project or Netflix project and he has an incredible backlog of graphic design, work is beautiful and so you're knowing that as I got to know that I'm like well this is actually it's not really about me, it's about all of us and it's this collaborative process that creates a good piece and so that was a lot of fun to learn more about Scott and his amazing talent and vision and he's got a new Netflix- New season out now. Nice plug, thank you. Little plug. So a lot like you are the athlete then connecting to those who inspire your shoe designs, I mean here you are you know having some graphic design backgrounds. Yeah the kind of the roles get reversed sometimes back and forth so it was a nice process and I often have, well I had not often but a couple times I've mentioned to Scott that he gave me quite a nice gift because you don't often get to see your life strong together like that and I think we all I think we most of us think about you know just day to day activities and goals and rarely do you get a chance to see it strong together so I was you know a little bit embarrassed when I first saw the first time but after that this then the second time I saw that I was I started to realize what what they really had done was quite special and and I got over the embarrassment and just started watching the the actual art of of the abstract series and and it was just it was really amazing. Yeah it's incredibly well done. Way to go, not props buddy, yeah yeah maybe you'll make something of yourself someday. All right so Tinker we asked our public for some questions for you and this was an Instagram question that was submitted by at othman underscore Almidani. So what is the most complex problem that you've designed for? It's really easy because it was right there in the in the in the piece which was the you know the Earl project because it it didn't really mention it but it actually was a 10 year long project and that doesn't count the the several years before when the movie concept had been put together which you know I worked on and so that was very complicated and time consuming and I had to keep going and asking for more money and you know from you know the you know the people who are keep track of those things rightly so and I had to keep basically trying to explain well this you know why why we needed to keep at it so that was very complicated technically you know presentation wise emotionally it just went on and on and on and finally we ended up with that with that product so that was that was a pretty pretty complicated and long process. Well and I think very much speaks to what product design is I mean you start with an idea a concept inspiration I mean having to even wait a few years for the technology to keep up yeah yeah we I mean you know when we first did the shoe in the movie the move the shoe didn't not lace itself as Mark Parker explained there was someone underneath the street the cables were going through the shoes through the pavement under there's a room under there and there's a guy who pulled on these cables to get those shoes to lace themselves but there was it did have its own lighting and even that wasn't that easy and Michael J. Fox had to wear a big giant battery pack in his back pocket that and with cables going down his pants into the shoes and it was like this big and and I mean and that was just to get it to light so so the technology to sort of shrink all of that down and have it work and be reliable and you know flex and be part of part of us an actual performance product it took it did take a while for technology to sort of catch up with what we're trying to do the magic of film I was there I was I was there that day when they when they shot that and we were laughing about so I mean it didn't look that good in person but you know through the magic of editing and you know you know Scott would know it's like you they really made it look like it really did what it did doesn't Mark have one of the originals in his office yeah he does as a matter of fact yeah yeah and so the hyperadapt then which is the consumer shoe which came from that same as Earl yeah right which is the same yeah as Earl it's 2.0 coming out anytime soon it already has oh yeah and it's been in the NBA and there's a there were a handful players that that were last season and it performed beautifully and there are all kinds of players excited to get you know get those again and also there's an ongoing kind of process of refinement and improvement so and so actually if if players are already wearing that shoe do you find that you know at the free throw line or whatnot at the bench are they loosening those laces and then tightening them back up and no I mean really the players are the shoe is not fully let's just say it's not fully automated that way yet I mean it's a it will be so you put them on and they automatically adjust your foot to the shape of your foot the sensors are really good about that but they don't quite have the ability to you know kind of like anticipate when they need to loosen back up yet but that will happen very soon so we're we're excited about that and so if somebody wants to loosen their shoes during a game all they have to do is just tap a button on the shoe or something on a watch so that's so cool yeah I have a pair they're pretty amazing imagine that how'd you get a pair oh that's so weird the other thing too tinker that I really love and we see this in the film is inspiration I mean you see it coming from Wally and Eve we saw it coming from even women's heels you know everything like how you know that process for you even of you know your sketchbook just filled with all sorts of drawings and just sort of letting loose you know talk about that stream of consciousness process for you yeah you know I think that part of my job always felt was you know you had to solve the problems for the athletes and try to make a better product for an athlete and athletes of all different levels and that was kind of the status quo of kind of the utilitarian nature of athletic product design this was back in like the 1980s and so when I started designing shoes I was already relatively seasoned architect and it was all actually it was also so in architecture it was about trying to design in meaning to a church or to a school or to someone's home or something like that and so it was it was natural for me to to want to solve the problems and talk to the athlete about their desires their their needs and their wants and then so that's kind of two things you're solving problems you're also trying to cater to an athlete and then the third thing was I probably was the first one I don't know for certain but I was bringing in a third kind of narrative which was inspiration from who knows where you know and you know travel around the world and meeting very interesting people was always a great way to sort of add that extra little kind of storyline which really informed some a lot of the styling of the shoe you know that idea that you have shared so many times about getting out in the world and that is so inspirational about you that you're not locked in the studio although that's really important to the process that you do have to be out and about has been I think a huge inspiration to so many designers that the outside world is so incredibly important to that I think I think I've coined a phrase of sort of sorts or who knows maybe I stole it from somebody back in but but it is when I sit down to design and I'm sure it's true for most people that are trying to create something new and different and I would just totally bet that you know Scott went through this process as well but when I think about it and when I sit down I really I sort of have this notion that when I draw and I'm trying to you know kind of start this process what I'm doing is a result of everything that I've seen and done or an experience in my life up to that point and that's what informs the design as part of that design process therefore I can't even remember when I haven't had ideas because I just keep doing stuff all the time I keep traveling and keep meeting really interesting people and also just participating as well in the number of activities and so I think as long as I do that or if you're a if you're an aspiring designer maybe you're already talented designers that's that's the secret sauce I just can't say anything you know more important than that be open to the world yeah very very much so yeah and actually I just want to touch on really quickly architecture so what drove you to go to art school for architecture it's interesting I had no clue yeah because I was such an athlete such a jock in school and then I got recruited all over the place for actually for different sports football basketball and or track it was depending on dependent on the school they would always ask me I'm going to recruiting visit and we're talking about full full right scholarship stuff at division one schools so they're very serious and they would they would ultimately get around to asking me well what do you want to study and I'm kind of this you know naive high school kid who was successful in sports but not much else and the only thing that could pop in my head was architecture and I guess it's because I had sketched a building or something I don't know you know probably when I wasn't paying attention in class but anyway I just I would just blurt out architecture and they're like well no no no that's not no no you can't we're not you we're not going to give you a full right scholarship and then let you go to architecture school we never even be in the come to practice you know because because that's an you know time very time-consuming sort of education so the last visit I took to the probably made 20 or 30 visits to different schools around the country the last one was to the University of Oregon Bill Barman that that track coach who was in that piece asked me that same question well what do you want to study and I said it to everybody else so I said architecture he goes he rolls his eyes a little bit and then he looks at me and he goes you know what you know the University of Oregon is here to you know build character and and help teach people you know how to be great citizens in addition to the athletic side he said you know what I'm going to give you a shot at doing that so not only will I give you your scholarship but I will personally since I know a few got our professors in the architecture department I'll actually get you into the school because I had no portfolio anyway so so that would that sort of sealed the deal I'm like okay I'm going to Oregon so that would that would do it that kind of did it wait and and in sketching and drawing and whatnot you must have known that you can draw before you know I just doodled around a little bit I did take one art class in in high school and I I I don't remember doing much of anything in there really so so really when I went to architecture school of course now you're you're competing in a sense against people who have been drawing and designing probably all through school and maybe even working for architects and I remember some some of the students just way and be way more advanced than myself but it was really only in college that I really started to sort of understand that that could visualize and then draw so I got better and better at it and took me about three years and I kind of started to catch up it's really cool to see that and I love that you're even still carrying your yeah you know I can't this is this is full of Nike secrets of Jordan intellectual property and someone was I think someone volunteered to hold it for me I said you know if this disappears I am toast it's got a lot of it's got a lot of stuff in it so Scott also you know tell us a little bit about how you shape the narrative for Tinker's episode we undergo that process I described where we we just talk for a good long while and we hear stories like the ones Tinker is sharing today and through the course of that we record everything and a lot of the narrative that you heard in the film is actually from those recordings of just conversations and and we use that to sort of build out scenes we have some understanding well we want to tell a story of that Jordan 3 we want to tell the Agassi story we want to tell the Mackinac story and it's very much like you'd expect you put cards on the wall and we work as a team to basically understand how we're going to pair visuals with those narratives where we need to go what film film techniques are we going to use a kind of lensing and cameras and gear required and then that really forms a production plan that we're able to go and map out those days across those months that we discussed so it is a pretty calculated process which is why when you have little serendipitous moments like the falling off the skateboard we enjoy those and it is a process I think that is really collaborative and it's as important to get the narrative thrust built in from the hero designer because these are really we're only there to honor their story and I'm not just my dad this is times eight so there are Scott is that you know producing all eight of these segments at the same time so that's that six months of work is is magnified by by a factor of eight and I'm I'm just like blown away at Scott's ability to not only mastermind the whole thing but to kind of keep it keep everything kind of moving and all of the stuff had to come together basically at the same time so amazing you're pretty amazing should be you should be in that thing well and that's a thing too I like I love that you know you really get at Tinker's process you know we see him in a studio you know sketching as well as even sketching on his tablet and whatnot you know so not even just you know focusing on the stories and the hero design but even the process behind all of that and part of is just voyeuristic and just curiosity from us as filmmaking team is creatives ourselves and we love to draw just as much and so what does Tinker draw when he's got his notepad out open so a lot of it is just driven by your own personal curiosity and wanting to know how his process work works and how how things come to life in his mind and definitely as an audience that's something we would want to know too it's really it's fun to see all of that so I actually want to mention something about the series and my experience so this is what's been out two out two years I'm still getting notes from people who are just now discovering the show and because it's out there and you can it's just gonna be there probably for a while for a good while for a good while the other cool thing when this came out there were something like 70 million netflix subscribers and today there are more than 150 million yeah so so I get letters all the time from people who've just discovered the show and they're like well cool you know a lot great it's really interesting and and sometimes I'll be someone will come up to me in a restaurant then the guys are you are you Tinker had feel like yes I guess so and and they're this is typical like well I'm I'm a design and art teacher at this local high school and I just wanted to come up and tell you that that every one of my students gets this is shown your particular segment of abstract and and so I think one of the really wonderful sort of aspects of this whole thing is that watching all eight of the episodes or just if you just choose you know the ones that you're most interested in it's like a bit of a master class in how to how to how to be how to be a designer how to be creative or how to do do something you know unique and that this is a great gift that again scott's created for millions actually millions of young young people are learning from the whole series yeah it's really cool you're you're the gift my friend so tinker if you were to look back at your career thus far what would you want to be known for oh well you know I've been asked that question before because you know people they want to maybe you know you know add that into the storyline and you know and I think that for me it's actually not the design work at all it's it's I want to be known basically for being a mentor and a teacher and you saw I coach track and field at a local high school and I did a lot of mentoring at Nike and I think that ultimately I think what what is most important about doing doing good work is that is that you become confident enough to then pass that try and pass that along Netflix has done a great job of doing that but also I just do it have all the time and I that's what I would want to be remembered for was that was one of those people like Bill Bowman who just sort of passed along what they knew so yeah that's really cool and overall architecture but really design what is design taught you uh it's taught me how to get by on very little sleep that's still the case doesn't I always wonder like in architecture school when you have to they basically force you to stay up all night and finish your projects and then tear your stuff up and tell you to start over and well that is like for real if you so so but I think there's I think that you know this design education whether it's an architecture or industrial design or you know maybe in a more fine art or whatever I think you learn you learn how to express yourself and you have to sort of start to learn about who you are as a person and kind of develop confidence and then of course there's this other thing which is and I hear about it all the time which is the inspirational side and or the teaching side and so for me design is really multifaceted in that there's this kind of a nice halo effect if you do it right so I think that's real cool for me it's been patience it I was a very impatient young man as a as a as a younger designer and certainly in school and to witness your process and persistence over decades and decades and decades and just the back to the future the air mag shoe alone you see the persistence and the mentorship of of your team members and to be able to do that is something I continue to aspire to and and think a long and hard about every every night as I'm I've learned a lot from Scott and because he's he's just again a master mind and vision visionary but also he's just a gracious and gentlemanly person and I'm like I want to be like that so he's a designer and I'm like I'm inspired by that and I think that's I think that that's kind of what we're I think in part that's what we're all trying to do is is is share what we know and and then good good things happen for others and yourself so I think well I have to say we are absolutely thrilled to have you here today sharing what you know and Scott for you to be able to be here and to join us has really been a total honor thank you for inviting us because this for me this is an acknowledgement of of the kind of work that that you know companies do you know to try and help athletes perform better and there is there is a there it is serious design work and solve problem solving and it's also very artistic in its own way and I think that I want to thank you for recognizing that and inviting us into this museum thank you