 Mae'r ydych chi'n chael dyma i ddweud gwrth bwysig oherwydd yr oedd gallwn nhw i'w hynny ymwneud iawn, ac efallai'n ni wneud i'r cyfryd i'w sefydliol yn dweud yr ysbytech syniadau am ni oherwydd gyda'r ysbytech ffordd gwn i'n ei ddweud o'r mlynedd, i wneud wereth ar y dw i'r rhaid. A oes wedi cael ei ddweud ar y peth oedd. Mae rhaid i'w wneud â chyfyrdd i chi'n ei ddweud, sydd yn fawr cyfwyrwyrrwyr yna? Ieithio chi'n gweithio ito'n gweithio'n gweithio'r ffordd honno? Rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio, yn gyfyrdd, a'r TV? Well, gallwch chi'n wneud rhywbeth. Gallwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gwneud o'r blynydd ymddangos cyfnod ar ystod, sydd ymddiad yn ei wneud o'r byd i'ch gwybod y Pasysgwrth a'r bobl. that was interesting. I mean, fact as a kind of technology provider had a fair amount of resource at its hands in terms of what it can building the platform, providing services to film events, record events. But yeah, I think probably finding the right partners is the key thing, like, as in life. We got into Zen philosophy, that was good. So how do you go about it then? Well we looked around, really. I mean obviously the first port of call is to see what people are doing with their own websites. We wanted to keep it local as well, initially in the first phase. As I said the art player platform sort of spread over three phases. The third phase being sort of very reasonably big, well established national organisations. The second phase being organisations that are creating content, a fair amount of content, but not necessarily with some where it's put it. But the first phase being keep it local, keep it a good spread of activity, keep and go out and meet and make sure you get on. Okay, so I think that's probably one for you isn't it? Major challenge? I think I emphasised it a little bit in the presentation, but I think with the stakeholders we have we all have very different interests. We have different core competencies and I think we need to lean, we need to learn when to lean on the other partner for information, especially bridging a big gap between what we can do technologically, as well as what the arts and cultural organisations are about. I mean that was a big learning I think for both of us, to be able to appreciate what both bring to the table and you're really bridging a gap of knowledge. So I think that's why communication is important. Okay, so dig into that a bit further then. So you're bridging a gap. My personal view on this is that generally speaking the technology is the enabler and in this particular context it's all about taking the art form and all the artistic mission or whatever it is to a wider audience or developing it in new ways. Was it a vocabulary thing? Did you not know how to talk to each other? What were the symptoms of the problem? I definitely say vocabulary is one thing. I mean we seem to have to explain ourselves two or three times and that's absolutely fine. Because you're not very good at explaining yourself. No, I think it's because we have a different language and we refer to things. Sorry, you're being flippant. No, it's the same thing with content. I think when I talk about content is that we can refer to accession numbers maybe four or five different ways and how is it that we're going to represent this content if we don't understand where it's coming from or what it was supposed to do from the very beginning. It can be as simple as let's just put that up there. Do you need it? We have it. No, no, it's really what was the purpose of having it in there at the first place. Is the right users accessing it or is it behind the scenes type of enabler? So really having the technology help means understanding comprehensively what we need to do from the very beginning. How do you go about working to develop the trust that sounds like you need in the relationship? I've got 15 years of experience and scalls on my back from digital projects but how do you build them on? The same way you do with everybody. You meet people, you talk to them, you find out what their limitations are, what your limitations are, where the gaps are, who you can bring in to fit in those gaps. What I was going to add to what was just said was that actually there are quite a lot now of opportunities for people to go out and meet other people from different backgrounds in terms of technology backgrounds. So for example, the work that the TSB do in terms of the consortium building projects and the work that the Northwest Vision Media do in terms of events that they do, I went to one recently with a presentation by Pact who's a very interesting bridge between, in fact I know you're involved with it, a bridge between producers and distributors and they're very good to do great advocacy work for the sector as well. So they'll just find us, I mean it's a short notice now and obviously we're entering into the kind of August period too, where everybody's going to be away and I know in some of the other research projects I'm working on, it's a real problem actually in the August period, but essentially just get yourself out there and go and meet people, see who you get on with, see where the gaps are in terms of your knowledge and see who you can find to fill those gaps. So how do you find, Prasilyr and Alexandra, how do you find a person to fill the gaps? Project managers, producers, do you suddenly all have to become sort of pocket geeks? I mean how do you actually do it in practice? If I may take this one. Well I think that actually you do end up doing a little bit of everything and I think it is extremely important to actually put yourself in the position of your partners. And I mean one of the ways I think we sort of started bridging this gap is that coming from very different points of expertise, when you talk about visuals, there's nothing like being able to show somebody something and have them tell us it's wrong and that's really one of our approaches in the beginning if we realized it's a lot of work but it actually will save you time to just say look just let's try something and then you can tell us whether or not this is the way you want your work to represent it, this is the way you want things to actually function and your user experience. Going back to what Prasilyr said earlier about learning from the expertise of your partners I think that's really how we do it and that involves having a project management plan but also making it flexible because at the end of the day, there's a lot of coming back and forth and the more we do it, the better we are at doing it. So there's a huge learning curve on our side as well. Definitely, I mean the milestones and scheduling are really important but you've got to keep flexible. You have to have an aim, steps you want to reach, milestones you want to reach but I mean for example with our, we've had to kind of pour our back end redevelop it basically because it wasn't reaching the kind of quality standards that we needed it to do so that was a milestone we had for July but we've kind of had to buy another couple of weeks in terms of our scheduling time to sort of fix that. So create milestones, create schedules, sure but don't get too sweaty about sort of sitting and fix it on that. Okay, I'm going to come to a question at the back in a second but just to close off this. Prasilyr, you mentioned sprints. That's a project management methodology called ADJAR, isn't it? Where in which you operate in a weekly or bi-weekly, very rapid, you show the thing you've made, you look at it, you reiterate it, you do some more work on it and another couple of weeks you do it again because people may have a different experience of waiting nine months for a website and then one being sort of born fully formed in a sort of bloody mess. How are sprints different? I mean is that the way you would advise people on a structured model? Well, it's worked for us and I think it goes back to having a tool that gives you kind of a structure but realising that things do change and adapt to and that we can iterate and that's the key part, that your process allows you to iterate, allows you to put some feedback in there so it's not so rigid. So yes, it absolutely works for us but I'm sure there are other methods as well. Okay, so I've got a question up at the back, I think. Thank you. Hi, Fiona Gasparole, Exchange Theatre. Hi Fiona. I'm going back to what you said earlier which was how do you make sure the audience has find it? I mean that seems to be the bit for me that's missing really that there's more and more platforms to show work in different ways and share work in different ways but actually then how do you really make them useful? How do you make sure people go to that? What's the sort of marketing strategy around that platform, I suppose? It's a really good question and it's a really big question as well because it's how in some ways what we're doing with the art player platform as a whole is to try and create another platform where people can let's go to and have some of the rambloing there, I think. Ask a different way around, might help you. How do you differentiate it from YouTube and Vimeo? Because people already go to YouTube. So why are they not going for art? I had an interesting chat with Tate Online a group and basically a lot of the traffic to their site comes from YouTube and Uview so that is actually where the traffic is directed to their site from. We are not building a marketing strategy to help increase audiences for the whole sector we're just trying to create a site where people can put their content on and we will look at how other marketing strategies might work around that but effectively I don't have an answer to that question. How are you doing it? I'm guessing eventually you are breaking through into commercial at some point so how do you generate traffic for both art finder of the site and the apps and things that you create for individual galleries? What are the tips and techniques do you think? Say that with your teeth in. Then I'm coming to a question. It goes back to partnerships because we talk about driving traffic not just physical footfall but we have a lot of backlinks. I know Alex went through our slides very quickly but making sure we have those backlinks and actually pulling from this I'm an idiot, tell me what a backlink is again. It's basically a hyperlink that takes you to directs you to the right places it's also how pages are ranked in priority for Google to bring in all those resources and leverage each other so that traffic comes from different places and that's a good thing as long as you're giving people a place to go and knowing that they have all these options and that same for the apps I think we're very lucky to have extremely engaged and enthusiastic partners and again we sort of have this expertise that goes into a much wider and diverse audience but we also acknowledge that our partners already have an audience in place and there's no reason why we shouldn't engage them as well so there is a lot of communication going between us when we make apps when we actually have more content coming in from partners to have them help us get the word out that these new products are available and if their general audience is interested then they can access it easily and is it paid for marketing this or are you doing it using clever internet techniques? We didn't really emphasize the social media aspect and again it's all over our pages but Facebook and Twitter being able to allow our users to actually share that content is a large part of how the word gets out so we use Facebook a lot in terms of if you log in by your Facebook account and we all know how people are using that a lot lately but we make sure that our message gets out to the platform we have Facebook commenting that's also shared on their platform so you can see that it just reaches out to various methods so I think it's important that we test and try out those social media and let the users drive some of that That's exactly the approach that we're taking with the art player platform as well I mean essentially the partners in this project are all of the organizations in the art sector who have their own marketing strategies the site is an aggregator for the content they're creating so what I want to see really at the end of the project is Twitter, Facebook and art player embedded into their own websites and platforms so it forms a part of the general marketing strategy across the sector to engage people or traffic people to the art player platform OK You'll be very patient in the middle, thank you My question was similar to Fiona's actually, my name's Emma Parsons I'm a freelance consultant I've heard a lot of case studies recently from museums and galleries who are using YouTube and their decision was based on that's where the audiences are now rather than creating a new platform use the platform where audiences are already going to for instance the Brooklyn Museum and the Guggenheim in New York have been creating their own channels on YouTube I'm just interested in what the panel think about using existing channels that are already massively used by audiences Absolutely, you've got to absolutely exploit those as well I mean most the feedback we got from the Tate when we were looking into research in this was that most of their international traffic their new international traffic is diverted to their website through YouTube so actually people looking for content go to YouTube first outside of the UK and we're not going to change that no matter how much you throw out a marketing strategy for emerging products you can't change the habits that people have created so OK, so why try to create a platform then coming from the floor well the platform is one place for all content to get put so it's a store effectively or an archive oh yeah no you would use that as well OK, let me repeat that for the camera why create a place for people to go to a new place when they're going somewhere else why well because we think it's needed because the sector doesn't really support doesn't really have as I was showing in my presentation there isn't really everybody is not capable of actually doing that so we are creating a platform but as I was saying we're also creating services to help create content to support that platform OK I'm going to come down here somebody waving a little orange pencil it has been for some time if you've got the mic go on you go and then I'll come down here let me direct the mic if you would guys rather than just positive Tekin Suleiman from Crowd FM I'm just wondering if you could tell us a bit about any difficulties you had in convincing partners to get involved with your projects particularly museums and galleries I mean what your platform obviously has benefits but the level of engagement and the level of work required to add all the content must be quite large how easy was it to convince them to be involved before you start within that can you talk about rights please I think it was incredibly difficult especially when we started the project we didn't have something to show and I think Alex brought that up in that everything is nice conceptually but it was very difficult to kind of persuade so there has been situations where a lot harder we put the idea we plant the seed and it takes a lot longer for that to kind of materialize then you'll find partners that are willing to take that leap and that chance and I think that's just trying to find the right fit and then what happens is once we've got now our platform we've got our apps I can tell you it's a lot easier to say this is what I'm talking about and play with it and that's why I definitely encourage you guys to just touch and feel and see it so I definitely wouldn't discount the fact it is very difficult in the beginning but I think you'll find partners that are also willing to take the leap because there's nothing out there or that they are looking for the same kind of synergies as you are and I think not to kind of take a leap forward just for the sake of having a partner really thinking it through because that's a long term relationship or at least you want it to be So how does it work on the specifics of rights then because from my experience you would tumble over a moment where everybody tried to decide who owned what you put on the screen how do the deals work without giving emotionally confidential things away I think with image rights I mean we deal with picture libraries museums galleries and artists so you can imagine that it's different for each stakeholder so some of them will say that the rights belong to me the rights belong to a third party you'll need to contact them so I think it's a matter of just understanding the landscape enough to say okay this is where we'll need this particular piece of information these are the rights how it's managed and again making sure that we respect the rights exactly the way that they've shared it with us Have you found they've fallen into categories are they falling into their three or four different groups of the ways you deal with this one in which you pay a sort of core rights holder one in which you revenue share there are various different models presumably down the line Yeah there are various different yeah I would say a mixture yeah Okay so that's a useful learning go to think about people who've learnt about rights Okay down here please Denise Farme Arts Council England Hello Denise I think what is very exciting about art player TV is that it does provide a editorial quality level that I don't think you can achieve through YouTube but the other exciting area around it is that it also provides you with a production team and skilled production team that can work with your organisation to develop that content and that's what we found through the research that Fact Under Talk is lacking in arts organisations current profile web profiles but what I don't quite understand is presumably you can't apply a licence fee to develop art player TV and you can't generate huge advertising revenues so what is the business model to continue art player as a service for the arts The business well effectively the business model is not defined so we are still in the process of defining what that could be but where we kind of started with this process of an art player TV platform was with emerging opportunities to disseminate content so effectively IPTV platforms I think it's in the brochure as well at the time we started investigating or building the model around how we might actually go forward with a platform we you view was very much in the public consciousness at that time it was called a project canvas which was an emerging as I say internet television protocol platform which would require new content so around that we thought well why not use the great kind of work which is being created across the sector capture it, edit it post it publish it and have that as a kind of repository for some of the content that could be used to create program for IPTV platforms for emerging to create content for emerging platforms that opens up a kind of Pandora's box of activities and shared you know partnerships with creative industry sector to production companies local to the area of the kind of organisations that maybe have a channel on the art player platform to create content around packages that could be useful for broadcast purposes that's going to start that's going to form the backbone of our business package in some ways OK we've got lots of people I've got somebody sort of three calls of the way back I think Andrew I have her yeah hello Hi claymackenzie, claymackenzie.com questions kind of for Roger but also I hope you don't think I'm being facetious perhaps a bit of a lifeline as well because everybody's sort of getting stuck on this YouTube thing obviously they are owned by the biggest search engine in the world so it's going to be very difficult for art player to compete in that capacity I think the training side of it will be very very useful because through experience people tend to be very very unsure of what to do and how to upload content so I think the strength for you will lie in the training side of it I also think you'll need to be careful about what content they're uploading in terms of perhaps advising them and guiding them on that I think if they just put up kind of sections of performances or whatever their sort of activities might be and dance I don't think that's going to particularly serve them very well online plus you have a limit for how long they can have the films and the videos for what I do think people will be interested in is not overly produced material that shows what goes on behind the scenes in terms of rehearsals directors, choreography and I think there's an opportunity perhaps there Absolutely, I totally agree with that I mean it's effectively what we're providing is an assisted service which is self-managed so the fact is sorry, the Art Player TV administrative team if you like if this rolls out further is not going to babysit every channel or every organisation that's kind of submitting content to their channel within the site but we will we will be offering assistance around production, around dissemination around the relationships we have with other production companies to help them create that content I do think the YouTube thing is a bit of a red herring because I think that's going to happen kind of anyway and as I said the the Tate will get a lot of their new traffic through that kind of route so yeah it's that, it's an assisted service which is self-managed because no one organisation could oversee the entire sector in terms of what content they publish that's impossible just here Manus Cary from Camerato again I have kind of a two-part question just to pick up on the whole business plan thing we do a lot of live streaming ourselves and it's incredibly expensive and it's an incredibly expensive thing to set up websites and to do all the work and create all the partnerships and I was just wondering are you both trying to create websites platforms that stand alone for themselves or that are there to lead on to the organisations involved and if the second is the case how do you do that so if I'm a gallery or whatever how can I ensure that if I'm involved that your website leads to me and then the second question is do either of you have any interest in creating any kind of income because there must be a massive amount of cost have you discussed ways to generate any income okay let's do our finder on those questions so how do you drive traffic back to people's websites or is it just about you and then where does the money come into this so the first part driving traffic we talked about that and I think one of the ways of attracting our partners is to say that we're going to give you the stats behind that because we can say where and how we're directing people to the site and actually in particular so I think giving those insights as to who's coming to the site what are they looking at that's valuable customer information and being able to share that with them and then we're directing them from our previous discussions to maybe your print on demand we'll do an affiliate link there or do you want them to go towards the exhibition and I guess again being nimble enough to understand where the traffic is really flowing and adjusting it so that it's actually what you want or best for the user information is definitely something we work with our partners to provide so I hope you like that if I can actually add to that as well I mean our entire concept of being able to explore art and share art includes exactly linking people to our partners I mean you have no other way of experience live art until you actually go to an exhibition, go to a museum so that is at the very core of what we're trying to do with our website is it too early to know whether that's actually working so the Constable app how would you track whether or not people have downloaded the app and then showed up more to the National Gallery for instance I know it's quite early but how would you theoretically how would you go about it I mean we can track these things and there are ways to track it through the people we've built and saw the apps through but it is very early so you could for instance give a special access code or a discount voucher you'd give a free cup of coffee to people who showed up for instance to track so you could be slightly counterintuitive about it and we are trying very different things I mean we have apps that are we have different well I'll speak to apps because I know more about that but we have different models as to how we create them and depending on your exhibition and not a content that you want to put in an app some of our partners for example have decided that well we'll do sort of a sample app that opens up your taste to the full thing and we have a promotional giveaways so it's really I mean as a company that's all very old we are still sort of testing which one of these strategies work best I think that the key part of the benefit of the digitisation putting that stuff on the web gives you insights deeper insights and you would having to measure people coming into your gallery and museum and they've looked at something you don't know what they've looked at whereas let's say we have our smart phone image recognition you take you know what that image is and it's a profile now you can go back and revisit it you can look at that one image ten more times and we know you've seen it like 20 times and maybe you're interested in that particular artist and so that's really valuable insights to recommending and directing users where they want to go so yeah I think definitely crucial and when building a plan it's important to have those metrics OK and how does money get made any of this and would you revenue share it or what would happen if there is any I'm assuming that it should must be at some point because you're going to be receiving grants for a long time well we talked about print on demand and that definitely there's some revenue sharing involved in that and we talked about of the apps as well Alex mentions taste or apps as well as let's say you get a taste of it you want let's say more images, higher resolution apps nowadays are not expensive so especially when you're going to museum and gallery and buying a guide you might just want that guide on your handheld versus trying to peer through and finding that place card information at your fingertips so there's in various ways I would say so a partner might pay you for an app or you might share the revenue from creating one together OK I've got a question waiting here and then I'm going to do one more and then we're done Joe Biccato from anti-limited just coming back to the commercials that's what I've been most interested in because probably everybody in the room here has got great ideas or great needs but one of the things at the beginning of this session was we were told about innovation in terms of income generation in terms of revenue streaming and I've been struggling to understand exactly how some of the people that you're providing products or services to will help you to derive revenue beyond being self funded or grant funded we've just touched upon it in some of the answers but I'm still struggling to understand how there is necessarily a viable scalable business model with the great ideas that you have so how do you convert an idea into something sorry from our point the business model is the only really exploitable business model asset that we have is the content that we create the things that we do and the more things that we do the better we do it the more likely we can redeploy that content elsewhere for our because we're creating new content possibly also posting up existing content through people's archives we're able to start looking at building models around as I said before around production services creative industries that create program for broadcast for distribution so those are the models that we're looking at I think hooking up with local as I said earlier local production houses organisations in the area of the organisations that have got the channels on the site you have to say redeploying it to create a good quality program which can then be sold locally, nationally, globally wherever we can that's going to form the basis of our business modelling around it I think I get that but do you have high overheads if you're looking at hosting, streaming video content how do you amortise the high overheads you may have in one side of the business against the knowledge economy or the service provision that you're tending to offer we're not intending to do streaming through the site that's not one of our aims although the broadcast group who are one of our partners are looking at models around streaming there are organisations within the UK and groupings of organisations and the cross art form venue network is one of them and they're looking at ways to distribute content through digital cinema networks so ticket and sales for new content that's emerging out of these developing platforms in some ways that CAVN network grew out of the work that the anti-live project indicated and the revenue models that they published around that as far as I could gather really actually very successful so there are new emerging distribution models for creative content and programme which I think are exploitable Okay so with you guys I think I'm spotting various models I'm spotting a kind of white label apps development this is for you as opposed to your partners so I've got a white label you make apps and then you can sell them into partners or revenue share on apps you've got traffic coming through your website which is potentially if you wanted to you've got advertising value you've got various referral revenue tell me if I'm wrong like print on demand you may have even ticketing on demand for big events that sort of stuff your partners are getting what they're getting their shares of that they're potentially getting more full through the gallery where they might charge or they might be able to measure against their grant funding applications what have I missed I'm just trying to get through this quickly okay there you go that's how art finder works when I should be investing later okay but I think these what's very interesting about both they're coming from different places to the same set of questions because you're I think I'm right in saying you had an R&D innovation grant initially and the plan is to become a commercialised entity whereas you're living more in the public public sector space to some degree so you can't kind of expect them to be the same particularly okay I've got one last question and then we're going to have our lunch because I have one need a sandwich this is kind of to art finder my question is in terms of would you partner up with maybe private gallery spaces or groups of artists and would they then be able to sell their products within the platform because I would really like to do that okay so we've got a business deal going on across the area okay so that's a kind of we didn't get that one thank you very much so can you do that will you do that is that a good idea so there's a really long answer to that we have the really short version of the really long one because I really do need a sandwich there goes yes I mean and we spoke a little bit about great so lunch no let's take the private conversation offline the answer is clearly yes and it's a really important sort of area but let's let them have their quiet conversation we are running a little bit later and I hate that in conferences there we go thank you so much to Roger, to Priscilla, to Alexandra for I think a very illuminating session