 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein with my co-host the doctor Jimmy Buccellato everyone the producer extraordinaire Benito Agosta and we are coming at you on zoom today You also have a audio recording of this that will drop on all Podcast platforms, but this is a video and audio special with a very very special guest Matthew Gentile a hot hot up-and-coming writer director in Hollywood that really Embraces the true crime genre and has his first major feature coming out soon based on an incredible true story of Jason Derek Brown who for well over a decade was on America's 10 most wanted list Con man murder Just Great film we recommend it and we're gonna bring Matthew in right now to discuss it Matthew. Thank you very much for joining us Thank you so much for having me Scott. It's a pleasure to be here. That was quite an intro So I'll do my best to live up to it movies called American murder and It is in theaters as we speak It will be on video on demand pretty soon on Friday. Yeah, so Friday October 28th You can rent it on the iTunes store Amazon Moodu cable direct TV anywhere you can rent a film on Digital you can rent American murderers. So if you can't make it to a theater Please rent it there if you can make it to a theater We highly recommend that because it's a great big screen movie, but whatever Whatever you can do as long as you get to see it. That's what matters I mean, I think the story Itself is Obviously so ripe for for a movie adaptation, but it's also a Hidden gem I think in the world of true crime. I didn't know about Jason until he approached me or when we when we hooked up and and It's really a a diamond in the rough of a True crime tale and it's pretty pretty recent most of this stuff was was happening in the 2000s late 90s early early 2000s and yeah out out on the west coast Pacific Northwest So why don't you tell us and then Jimmy you can chime in whenever you feel necessary but Matthew, why don't you just tell us, you know, where you how you came up about this story and How you went about finding a way to to bring it to the big screen and we should say that the movie stars Tom Pelfrey of Ozark Ryan Philippi who's been around forever and is just one of those really Staples of America cinema the last two three decades Dina Menzel a Broadway All-time great Jackie Weaver Oscar nominee. You got a pretty stack cast Kevin Corrigan is in it Who's one of my favorite like character actors? Scorsese films a lot of Spike Lee movies. Yes. He has Yes, I'll start with what drew me to it So before I wanted to be a filmmaker, you know, I wanted to be an FBI agent and you know, I got to say You know, Jimmy, I see your wall behind you and the movies that are behind Jimmy right now Scarface Sopranos I see Godfather. Yep. Doug the afternoon, right? These are the kinds of movies that made me want to be a filmmaker My father showed me dog the afternoon when I was 12 with Al Pacino And it quickly became my favorite film of all time. I just was obsessed with the story I really related to the character and I just felt that you know, even though this guy robbed the bank I was putting a gun in people's faces. I felt bad for him at the end when he got caught So, you know, this was the kind of you know, when I saw this movie at age 12 You know, I grew up and it's I'm an Italian Jew from New York So, you know when I used to go out my mom and dad They used to take me to the theater a lot me and my siblings we'd go and when you want streets in New York They used to sell screenplays on street stands only old vendors They used to print out scripts and sell them with like a little image from the movies He's like a bootleg script that they probably had no right to sell But my mom saw me eyeing a streets in the head copies of films like dog the afternoon good fellas and Dog and many others and the Godfather. So my mom saw me eyeing the the copy of dog the afternoon She bought it for me. I took it home 12 years old read the screenplay had the movie on VHS Watched it read it and said to myself. This is what I want to do. I want to be Frank Pierce I want to write the script for this thermally like this so Age 14. I used to I like I said, I want to be an FBI gen So I basically wanted to be Ryan Phillip based character in this movie and You know, I used to go on the FBI.gov website and look at the top 10 fugitives And I would do this with the hope of helping the FBI catch one Right and get the reward money and use it to do whatever So I would go on I'd peruse the fugitive site and at this time Jason Derek Brown's headshot was on The FBI's most wanted fugitive site because he committed the crime in 04 That made him become a top 10 fugitive and I was around 14 And I remembered being struck by his face And the reason his face really stood out was because when you look at the FBI top 10 fugitives, especially at that time You had really a lot of mean menacing sophisticated criminals up there like Why do bulger of some bin Laden, you know, guys who really didn't look like Jason Derek Brown Jason really clearly stood out. There's a surfer Spicoli Exactly. He looks so much like Spicoli. He's been you want to think funny you're gonna love Sean Penn's body levels been arrested twice in the 18 years. I read that when I was researching this, right? So, I mean, you know, it just the face immediately stood out not the crime But just his face and I remembered the mugshot. It was like I'm printed on me So cut to 14 years later. I'm gonna jump back around a time a lot. You've seen my movie. So, you know, I do that I love I love this podcast I really use it as a re as a research tool and I think for any crime writer out there any crime creator content and creation Listen to this podcast. So there's there's my endorsement for you guys Unpaid sponsor Which is this too, but you know, yeah, so anyways, I was really You know, I had not thought about it for about over a decade You know cut to 14 years later and graduate film school day if I am trying to figure out what my first movie is And you know, I'm thinking like, you know, I think a lot of us filmmakers and certainly writers like we kind of write The stuff we grew up loving in a weird way Like, you know, you kind of the movies you love that age 12 13 14 or kind of I feel like the films You go out and try to make more or less or the maybe the books you try to write and so for me Um, I was struggling to figure out what my first movie was. I had options You know, I had a couple short films that were doing well getting seen around the industry But you know in Hollywood whenever you have a small measure of success all anyone asked you is what do you got next? What do you got next and I didn't quite have that first movie lined up So I was doing a lot of you know gigs. I was shooting commercials for people and such one day I was storyboarding a shoot and as I'm storyboarding I have the TV on In the background and um, you know, just drawing on my images and an American green pops up on my tv I said cmvc or something like that in the background And american greek is on the tv and all of a sudden jason's face flashes on my television Like I see a full full mug shot and I look at michael. What the fuck I turn up the volume I go that guy is still missing because I knew in that time that bin Laden been apprehended Like boulder had been apprehended but not this man. What happened here? Something must have gone wrong So I started doing my research I started looking into the case and I started to you know, and I turned up the volume on that documentary And I saw that documentary was interesting the american green one because it jason's story has been covered everywhere Dateline american greed, you know multiple books newspaper articles, right? There's a lot out there about him And you know, he also put his own image out there a lot, you know, kind of like a gangster He was very much about flashy being flashy showing off his life show, you know He filmed himself throwing a major boat party that we recreate in the film, right with like girl, perhaps if this story happens 10 years Into the future. This is on instagram Absolutely, that's the thing I've always said is that yeah jason was an influencer before the thing existed You know, he was doing that he was ahead of his time in that way And um, so yeah, so I just became absolutely fascinated and what I realized was this was a fascinating story to me Because here was this charismatic con man Who was so good and convincing to so many different people That he actually managed to have this web of people who knew him who loved him Who saw him through different perspectives completely if you were to talk to adina menzel's character Who's a composite character, but if you were to talk to her you were talked to his sister He would talk to his brother, which I didn't do by myself But I thought all these interviews with them and listened to them I started to see that everyone had a different take on who this guy was and what he meant And that was just really fascinating to me the idea that this person You know, wasn't so much of I mean the crime was interesting and fascinating for sure Dharma truck heist, you know, and I grew up loving movies like that like heat You know and and crime thrillers, you know and crime drama We can we can jump back, but I just want to throw in there for people Uh that are you know consuming this, uh, you know, and they don't have any preconceived notions of who this guy is It wasn't like this guy was a professional Bank robber or a stick-up artist, you know, he made a big leap going from right con man to Now I'm going for I'm taking it to a whole other level of criminality Yeah Yeah, you know and for a while, you know jason did petty cons and crimes and that escalated but you know in You know, really, you know, that's the fascinating thing about jason's character is you know There's a lot of ways you can look at him Right on one hand, you know, he he has elements. He has tendencies of a sociopath on the other, you know In his mind, he was desperate And thought he needed to do this to get back to a certain lifestyle that he wanted to have right And that's fucked up and crazy and bizarre and twisted and the movie is It's pretty twisted, you know, because we're really trying to show you the psychology of this morally very reprehensible guy, you know And and those are the kinds of films I grew up loving like the films that are on jimmy shell, you know, like I I love moral gray area I love, you know The films of the 70s, you know and and the film to ours in the 40s 50s, you know Those kinds of films that really explore that dark psychology and that's what I think, you know, american murder is Striving to do yeah I something right away when I was watching it I was texting with scott like as I was watching it in real time for the first time And I reminded me of of some movies like Catch me if you can or even or even american psycho in the sense that You don't really like this guy. He's a despicable Despicable person, but as scott put it in our conversation like you you want to take this ride though You want to like you want to be on this ride with this guy even though he's he's a really just the A cringe-worthy Path and you're not rooting for him Nevertheless, you want to you want to stay on this ride and see what happens You're cool riding shotgun On that road trip and I think it's oh It's so important When you're making a film and you're you're talking about characters that are Not black and white at all. There's a lot of gray in there And uh, if you don't find a you know, um a lens-in perspective with the right You know character plot points the way that the characters written and then the right actor to get Get you know hit those sweet spots You know I've been There could there could be great intentions and a great story and you can still miss the mark I I lived it with my experience with white boy rick That film, you know, it didn't resonate with people and There was a great story there that just didn't translate from This the I guess from the page or the the real life Actions into people didn't want to ride With the characters in that film for whatever reason so I just I think what jimmy what we were saying is that Whether it's a despicable character or The you know the the a type of character that could be up for the noble peace prize if you don't resonate with it You're not going to want to be riding shotgun on that trip Right, and you know, you bring up a great point because this is the you know, I think the common You know, and I know you work in hollywood too. So, you know, you you deal with this in hollywood Better put that in Me too by the way man I'm independent bro You know No, but you know when you you know in the film industry or you know studios companies financiers often Screenwriters complain that the notes they get back on their scripts are oh, this character is not likeable enough You know this character needs to be more likable or endearing or this and that and you know the funny thing is though I mean, there is it's not a completely it's not completely a throwaway point Right, there are there is some truth to that and that you have to be invested Right as you said you have to be able to at least ride shotgun Right and what I could say about our movie, you know, american murder is that you know, correct Jason is despicable and we don't really try to make him not that you know We're really showing you who he was warts and all the whole way through You're showing him not just he's conning his own family Right, right. Yeah. No, he'll still steal from his own mother. He's not still subjective You know, it's like he he will he there's nothing this guy won't do and just when you think he might do something redeeming that he doesn't You know But the thing about it though that I think makes the movie You know the movie because early drafts the screenplay were just focused on jason You know, they were just in his point of view. I never went outside of it And those drafts while some of them are kind of interesting and cool as an experiment They didn't really work because what made the story work and I think what makes the movie work Is you see jason derrick brown from all of these different perspectives So you see him from the point of view of his sister She had played by shantel man sando I think it was an amazing job And she really shows you how he changes from this innocent boy Who got swept over by his father and just quickly like him and core again and just you know Turned into this criminal and then you see his mother jackie weaver who she sees right through his bullshit Right and that's the con man's worst nightmare Is the person who can see right through and then you have a dina menzel who sees him as a romantic hero Right and so we use each of these characters or ryan's character sees him as as a you know, that's his prey He's trying to hunt this guy So you kind of are seeing it from all these different perspectives And I think because of that constant shift and lens like you talked about how it's like now you're going to see him To this way now you're going to see now we're going to be with him alone Now we're going to see him through his brother who's kind of like a surrogate father You know, you're going to you're going to get all these different Perspectives of jason so that by the end of the movie whether you love him hate him Ball anywhere in between brute forum brute against him wanted to get caught wanted to get away I think you can enjoy the film because you get a 360 degree view of him and you get a fun ride Right and you get confronted with who was this guy? What was he about why and you know the movie if any I don't really believe in messages because I think A lot of those movies on the shelf there and the movies we all love I don't think they had messages, you know, I don't think talking to afternoon said bank robbing is bad Right, I mean it is but I don't think that was what that movie was saying I don't think the godfather said, you know off the mob's evil like we already knew that Telling a great story. Oh my godfather. Yeah, the godfather is about family. What does family mean? They post questions, you know And the movie the question behind american murder for me was why do we call for con artists? Like why does this keep happening that we keep falling for their charm? We keep falling for their tricks because it's very it's it's as prevalent I mean, there's two great versions of the book nightmare alley, right? I love both movies equally the 46 version the new version delta already. I thought was very underrated and You know those movies were made at different times 2021 and and 1946 But it's the same problem that they're talking about which is that con artists have a way especially I mean it's a it's a worldwide thing, but it's especially I think prevalent in our culture So that that's what I was really trying to you know, explore con artists gangsters that kind of stuff Well, I think the the lead actor does a great job of Being this like chameleon and in those different situations where you're talking about I don't want to give too much away, but Depending on who he's interacting with he almost takes on a completely different personality It's really remarkable. And I think that's what a con man at least the the ones who are who are good at what they do Are really able to mutate and transform And so what if he needs to be a kind of a yuppie party boy, you can do that if he needs to be Enduring and like just a fun brother. He can do that and even the scene where he's with the guy that he tries to Well, I don't want to give too much weight But he's he's trying to put together the bank heist and he tries to recruit this guy And in that scene all of a sudden he's acting like kind of like he's like some urban thug gangster kind of dude And it was really fun to watch how depending on the situation he can transform And uh, and as you point out that one of the great scenes is with the mom that never falls for Never and then and then he tries something else so that he's he's trying these different masks And she's the only one that is like no try again Yeah No, absolutely and yeah, I think that's a con man's first never but absolutely I mean tom and I even talked about this I think he gives such an amazing performance because he really understood that part of Jason He understood the charisma and the physicality. He understood, you know, he had all these things in spades But I think you know what you're tapping on is clearly correct. You know, he is like an actor You know, he can every time he goes in somewhere. He's playing another role And you're glad you picked up on that like, you know, how he out when he visits moises are his character He's a thug now, you know, and he's talking like when he's like it's like he listened to You know, it's like he just watched eight mile and decided to talk about that, you know Like we even talked about that. I think in one of my descriptions that yeah It's just that he's always constantly shape shifting to fit who he's with So he can give them whatever they need, you know with the deanus character He's like nice suburban man, you know, but this brother he's golf boy You know, it's like he's always changing and I think that's what makes him So fascinating was such a fun character to you know, I think for tom to play And for me as a writer and a director to really You know follow because he's always doing he's always going to do something that will throw you off and I think you know, it's tough to figure him out And I think that's what makes great engaging characters, you know, like But like I've seen the godfather now probably 300 times and I still can't figure out what makes Michael Corley on tick You know, I'm like You know, he's complex, you know, you watch that scene when he You know kills a kind of brother or kind of a husband, you know, and I I had a great argument with my drama teacher about that and you're like Like, you know, we're it's like does he want to do it or does he do it? You know, and it's like there's always this complex Questions that these these great movies. I think do they they sit in here They made these characters get under your skin and they sustain your head, you know The fact that we're having that conversation about Michael Corley on 50 years after that film came out It speaks to what why it's one of the all-time great written characters Yeah, I I think the greatest film. Well, the greatest american film ever made for sure For my money, but in my opinion is worth it. Yeah, I think so and I would say that with The the main character He's not one dimensional though in the sense of yeah, yes, he's despicable. He's a con man But I really was impressed with how Again, not trying to give too much weight, but the scenes with his siblings Are the moments where you actually do see a little crack in in the arm with him He's still a piece of shit. Don't get me wrong even with even with his siblings But there is I like how you did that where you're like people are Complicated so even though he's a bad guy. He's a con man. He's always lying Even a guy like that or he's going to have his soft spots And and it's clear in the film that it's with his siblings and again I don't want to overstate that he takes advantage of them too But you could just tell that if he does have a weak link It's how he feels about his siblings and and and I would just want curious. It was just just my Reading of that or is there something something? No, not at all. I think that's completely true I I think that you know the one word theme of the movie as I always saw it was family You know and that this was a family sibling love story actually underneath You know, we've carefully disguised it for you with the poster behind me as you can see a crime thriller a cat a mouse chase A try an FBI agent and a criminal. It's got all those elements, you know for sure But underneath it all at the core this to me was a story about family And um, you know, even though Jason Derek Brown is evil and does evil things throughout the course of the film and tests your ability to Watch him You know at the end of the day this was somebody who was loved by people And I think he did love his siblings even though he did horrible things to them Right. I think he did love jame. I think he did love jame I think by the way all of his cons to a degree In his own brain had some truth to them, you know, otherwise. I don't think he would have been So convincing, you know, so I think that's also part of the interesting thing about a con man Is it's like it's always a question is well, what was real, you know was I get asked a lot in q&a's an interview as well Well, did he love a deanist character? You know, did did he people say or did he just not care about was he just using and the answer is well, obviously he was using right because That's what it is. But at the same time, you know, I think and tom said this in another interview I think a part of it had to be real to him Otherwise, I don't think he could convince her of that because her character is not stupid You know the marks in this movie the people who get used and taken advantage of I think are all For the most part very intelligent people certainly like the sister was very strong and smart. I think at least that's how I saw her character The brother, you know, I think these are just These people just you know got unfortunately got caught up in this guy's web And we talked about the movie some in some ways as a bit of a monster movie You know, um, this was a movie where you know, anyone jason pubs into contact with is in danger You know and so run, right? But you know, that's the question the movie's asking is like How do we deal with people like this because sociopaths con artists people like that they're they're around right people who use people And so that's what the movie's asking is why do we fall for them? How do we deal with them? You know, what's the what's the deal with that? Yeah, I mean I was I was texting scott when again in real time when we were watching it and My favorite scene in the movie is the golf course. Yeah, I know I know that sort of I get it's an action film And I I could easily pick, you know, any, you know, that might think you might think people that have watched the film Like well that not not a lot is happening, but that's not the point. I know it's an action film It's a hoist film crime film But to me that's the most powerful scene in the movie on the golf course with his brother And one of the few moments where I think he lets his guard down A little bit I agree and I just I think you can relate to it on so many levels because I think a lot of us have Loved ones whether it's family or friends not not to this extreme What the lead character is involved in but we all have family members loved ones who are For lack of a better term lost souls And we try to reach them and we try to communicate with them and guide them and it just it just doesn't stick It doesn't stick and it's frustrating and that's why it really resonated with me I think uh, maybe maybe not about bank robbery and trying to avoid A rest for murder, but to some extent someone who's a lost soul who you care about and you just It doesn't matter what you do. You can't you can't reach them and that's what I thought of when I watched that scene Who's that that scene that scene and then the final scene with him and his mother Jackie weavers We were talking about diamonds in the rough and hidden gems to start our interview and Maybe because she's not You know, she didn't get to america She didn't get here for audiences to start really appreciating her until the last 10 15 years But wow, jackie weaver is is such an amazing actress Uh, I'm gonna turn it over to you matthew and tell me what it was like directing her But I want to tell everybody that's watching this or listening to this. That's that's a true crime aficionado I'm sure a lot of people know about the television show animal kingdom um, but The movie animal kingdom with jackie weaver. She got a I believe she got an oscar nod. She did. Yeah, that's right and It's an australian movie Uh, there's a number of actors that you'll recognize that have made their way into into big united states You know, hollywood blockbuster films. So I grew the necrotin um Great film and a mendelson But it is amazing film It's the same story that you're getting in the tv show, but it's I And I know the tv show is a hit. So i'm not trying to Down talk the tv show, but the movie to me is a brilliant movie And she gives a tour de force performance every time you see her Uh, she still seems um You know, she was with brad cooper and silver silver linings playbook Was was great What was it like Getting that getting to work with her. She's an incredible actress. I agree. Um, you know, and also yeah, she you're right She did not become famous in america until like 15 years ago, but she's been around forever You know the 1970s. She's in some of my favorite australian films Two of which i'll over name here and recommend picnic at hanging rock great fucking movie peter weir film Um, kind of a thriller She's very young and then she's amazing. Um, and she's also in this great film called stork, which is like a cult australian cult classic So she's better, but she's been around forever theater film all that and you know, she's somebody who yeah, she's known this for like 50 something years Um, she was the coolest. I mean one of the easiest people in the world to work with You know, you would not think you were talking to someone who's been nominated for two oscar. She was very unassuming Um, you know a little very funny, you know and would make funny jokes and things she made fun of Us in my dialogue for having the words actually really and truly in it a lot and we were laughing the whole day Um, you know, I mean her scene you she we only had one day with her Because this this movie was made on a pretty tight budget. I can't say what the budget was but it was tight um less than it looks is what I say and um, you know, we were we were you know We had to be creative and and certainly you know with her or someone of her caliber We only had one day to shoot all her scenes. There's quite a lot in ours Her main scene is like eight eight pages long. So, you know, we had it was a you know It looked like it was going to be a really hectic day The truth is it wasn't because her and tom When they played their big scene together and her and chantel two both scenes I think came out really nicely But her and tom like when that scene went up on its feet I thought it was gonna have to be all this work or these camera angles And once it played it just worked so well because the two of them were so good That all I really had to do as a director was set the shot up right and get out of their way You know, I didn't have to give I didn't like, you know, I gotta say you don't really direct jackie reaver You know, if she asks you for something you help her You know if she needs to if she wants some information to give it to her But like, you know, jaguar any and the same with all these guys, honestly, tom pelfrey, ryan billipay, you know These are people who've been doing it for such a long time. They're so good and they're so seasoned and they've worked with so many great directors You know, I mean jackie as you point out. So we're david me job and david russle You know constantly is on taylor shared him with with y'all stone. I mean, she's worked with real heavy headers So, you know, I found that she was really easy to work with very You know reverent, you know very reverential to the director, which I found funny and you know, just really cool and fun And uh, you know, I consider her friend now like I got lunch for recently She's just a great great person great actress. Um, very funny very Cool and even killed and you know Any director out there with the movie if you have a role for her getter because she's the best I never thought we were gonna get her by the way. I uh, in fact, I'll tell you a funny story I was developing the script in 2019 I remember I the script was an option by these two companies that produced a film a trial and picture of gg films and We were doing rewrites and uh, I was taking I was getting my first round of notes you know becoming a professional writer getting hazed and um You know, he's in the development process, but they were great But they were they were pushing me to do better and I'm really glad they did But uh, I remember I was doing a pass on that one scene with Jason and his mother And it was a lot shorter originally it was like briefer. It kind of comes in tries to con her She doesn't work any leaves and the producers were like none and I really like Make that role hit because I'm telling you you can get someone like you can get jackie weaver And I looked at them. I said you guys are fucking crazy I was like, we're not gonna get jackie. We were through this world in no way and then sure enough You know, when we went out to cast American murderer, you know, we cast we started casting in March of 2020 So not the best time to start casting the world shut down in the middle of the world shutting down We're trying to make offers. Nobody's getting back to us. It's this whole thing It really looked kind of dim. You know, it was like, okay Maybe we'll film this in 2021 if this thing blows over was kind of the thought But I kind of believed I was like, you know, we're gonna film this here I kind of had this like resolve in my own gut where I was like, we're gonna shoot this year I don't care. Let's start storyboarding call me some it's hard for everybody. Let's shot list every day We're filming, you know, it's going to happen and you kind of have to be that way and film I find you I don't have to give yourself the green light, you know, you can't really wait on someone to give it to you and um I Remember like, you know, then we like once tom joined though and then ryan joined like once those two were locked in Once they joined the cast We got these amazing people to come and I think a huge part of it was like, yes They like the script enough to take a chance on a first time director, you know But I think people were hungry to work, you know, jackie weaver I think we wanted to do something fun, you know, and like this was a fun roll for and I think same with Adina or same with You know, Paul schneider shantel van sands or kevin forgan You know, I think a lot of people were coming and this also the same for the crew, by the way A lot of the utah crew that filmed this movie were you know We were all coming out from a time of we were locked up in our apartments or houses And we wanted to get to work and do something and so that we got you know, because we shot the movie in december 2020 So, you know, roughly in that time So you think about when that was it was a time when the world was in lockdown pre-vaccine covid And uh, you know, we were just lucky to be getting to do this period You know, and I think that was part of the fun of this cast, you know And how I was able to come together because I think if we filmed any other time Maybe we would have gotten one or two of these people but that the odds that all of them would have been available at that time I think came down to you know The time that it was did you did you cast tom based on ozark? I mean Was that something that really Your eyes and be like wow this guy. No, absolutely man. Absolutely. I mean, well, I I'll tell you what happened I was so Back to march 2020 where we have lists, right tom was not on the list. I didn't I I found out later I knew who he was but I didn't have the time out, you know And my producer gia walsh called me and she goes Hey Matthew, are you watching ozark? And I said no, I don't watch tv. I just watch tc. I'm a criterion at old movies And she said well stop being stupid and watch ozark So I started watching and then In the same hour My brother who's the composer of the film and my best friend who's a talent agent call me and they say hey Are you watching ozark sky tom pelver is perfect for your movie? So I go, okay, either gia talked to them or they all are old feeling this but let me go watch it so I turned on the show And you know, I used I acted in high school. I was I took this great acting class at At a conservatory and I remember there's this crazy ass teacher by law named gel and she used to say to us She would go now guys listen when you audition for a movie or a show They know in the first five seconds if you're right for the part Give me my actor friends would laugh at her and be like this woman's crazy. Like, you know, how do you know in five seconds? You need a monologue. You need a scene. You need something But I learned that gel was fucking right when I saw tom in that first episode of ozark because it was like It was literally like the second he came on screen It was just so clear that he was the right guy And part of what it is. I think that made him pop out, you know, and I wasn't really thinking about enough Oh, is he a leading man or this and that I was really more thinking You know, when I saw him it just hit me. He had all the right traits jason derrick brown needed You know jason derrick brown needed to be for one. He has to be charismatic, right? He can't have an uncharismatic guy playing jason. So he's got to have that He's got to be physical You know, because it's a physical role. He's doing pull ups. He's shirtless a lot. He's showing off. He's he's peacocking, right? So you got something you can do that Then you got to have somebody Who is unpredictable, right and can switch notes can go from You can kind of hit every spectrum of the emotion tom very clearly can do that And so as I watched those arc I was like, where have I seen this guy before and then I realized I had seen tom Plenty of things. He's been a lot of plays in new york that I saw which I'd seen him in I'd seen him in play in in indie films and tv shows like banshee You know where he was also excellent by the way and played a really complex character on that show so I'd seen this guy as being someone who was like, wow, he was really interesting and That ultimately it just it became very clear pretty clearly. He was right. He was he was the right guy for this And then when I was filming I realized to myself He was the only guy who could have done this I don't really I really genuinely don't think there's another actor who could have pulled this role You know and all and I had a lot of great guys on lists, but Now tom pelfrey was absolutely meant to chase the director. I don't think there's any accident that he was cast I like how uh ryan's uh rule two is um in this case it actually is one dimensional But I like it because it reminds me of as as you know, matthew I mentioned off-camera that I I teach a course on crime and film and we talk about different tropes and things like that and one of the classic tropes for crime films is the g-man The guy who's who's just buttoned up straight lace Not complicated just like I just processed intel and I get bad guys and um, and It really was like a throwback kind of character to those kind of g-man films. Um Is that is that something you had in mind for his character because I think it really plays well Absolutely, you know, there's many ways to describe ryan's character You know, I've heard some people say in a way he functions as both. Yes. He's the man hunter, right? He's on the guys tail. He's simple, right? He's got a mission. That's it. It's an understated role. It's You know, ryan one thing ryan said to me when he read the script and told me he wanted to do it was He said the part of the reason I want to do this is I'm just I'm so glad you didn't do any of those like tropes where it's like You know, his wife is like, why are you still working on this piece? You don't understand, you know, we didn't do any of that Yes, we really you know, we kept it's a minimalist role and I think ryan does a really good job at it because You know, he he's very you know, I think ryan is a very subtle actor actually and I think I think a lot of his work Um, I think ryan is able to do a little like by just doing a little bit He can give you a lot and I think he really understood it. I think he was very much You know, he he saw the character. I know as a shark like just kind of One-tracked mind, which I'm kind of like to actually there's a one-track singular focus kind of guy And um, you know, I think he's the straight man in the movie, you know, and then that that can be a more challenging You know, I mean, you know, I think everyone I'm really proud of this entire cast I think they all just did such great jobs with their roles and I think they all elevated what I had there Um, but yeah, no, he was he was exact You know, and I've heard people describe him as the man hunter, you know Sometimes and I even thought of it like he's in a way like kind of like joe cotton's character and says and came He's kind of that narrator. He's taking you through, you know, he's guiding you through the movie But you know without his character the film doesn't work or hold up at all because He's ultimately threading you through and taking the audience on the ride So he's sort of your way in as a viewer You know, he's he's how you're going to see this world unfold and all these different perspectives unfold And you know, he's kind of kept at a distance from Jason because all he has are memories images and photographs and videos and recreations, right? And so that's kind of what you know, that's what his character Function serves but I had such an extraordinary time working with him. Um, He's such a pro in the first day when he got there like We were chatting he was telling stories of working with Tony scott Clint Eastwood Robert all men. I mean, he's such a uh, he has such a cool career and Baxter like I don't even know see he's the reason gospel park Robert all men's one more about all these last films got findings You know, it's just like he's just he's had such an interesting career and has worked with so many great filmmakers And he's done consistently so much good work. Um, I'm a huge huge rifle big man. He was really fun to work with Yeah, I like in the film also has the the kind of dynamic where When he's talking to adena manzell's character or or the the siblings You know, he has this kind of um Well, you couldn't you couldn't figure out your brother is there this this guy you're dating He's a piece of shit and he does all this he he's a con man. He robs banks but It that's easy from his perspective because he doesn't even know who this guy is until he sees a dead body And surveillance footage of him of him running away So he's got this tunnel vision as you say like this is a bad guy. He did something really bad and I like the kind of the just the contrast when he's he's playing that straight man And and I almost felt a little bit of sympathy for the other characters when they're like It's easy for you to say because this is your first and only exposure to this guy But for these other people it's a much more complicated Relationship and and you can tell they're struggling with it. They don't they don't want to They don't condone the bad things he's doing They they are wrestling with this But you know, he is thinking his time is of the essence. We got to get this guy laser focused But the other people are just trying to process this all and it was just it was just a lot of tension And it was fun to watch watch the different actors play that play that off of each other I think Jimmy can attest to this and and I'm interested in Matthew's response that Both Jimmy and I we've Been around because of our career and our research path Uh, we've been around a lot of GMet, you know guys that were very high and law enforcement elite law enforcement, whether bfbi da um iras Ats we could go through the alphabet soup and I'll tell you That the way that ryan played the character his character's name is lance. I'm a I'm assuming that was a composite No, he's actually a real guy This is how most of these guys are and I'm not trying to unfairly paint a brush over all crime busters but there's a certain personality Uh and and a singular focus and uh an obsessive almost You know ocd type personality. Yeah that and it's 90 of these type of guys that I've met fit that profile Yeah, you know, I mean, you know because they live the job they live the job 24 seven Exactly. Yeah, you know and look, you know, we we never I never spoke to the real Lance that there are interviews with him that I watched and kind of you know to get a sense of what his wardrobe was like It was deep, you know as much detail as I could but you know We yeah, we wanted we were striving to be as authentic as possible not necessarily as accurate as possible You know, there's a lot of there are things we change to dramatize this movie I should be clear about that, you know in case of anyone who's portraying the film The listening and angry at me, you know, this was this is a work of true crime fiction You know, I I dramatize things I made things up to make things more exciting and compelling for an audience But we you know, there was a lot of research that was done and you know There were a lot of facts that I did use and maybe with twist It's kind of like you make the story to to inspire certain scenes and events But um, you know, yeah, I mean we wanted to be as authentic as possible And you know, I think that's part of why ryan really responded to this You know in the way his character was portraying because he said to him and ryan's played a lot of jeanette He's played a lot of cops. He's played a lot of agents So, you know, he's he's done this type of world before and he said it felt very honest to him as well So I'm glad you said that I'm done. Yeah, I agree. I like them as a police officer in crash Yeah He plays kind of a the young uh doe-eyed Yeah, cop that's going out with the the seasoned cop and he realizes very quickly that uh He's also great in the police. The police officer sometimes Don't always walk the straight and narrow and and matt dillon was great in that role Got it nominated for for an academy. Any any plays a great prick, too You know, I like I look it up. You look back at cruel attentions. Oh, yeah That was that was the sleepover. I was growing up or the party, you know, they would put on a party I know he did last summer. I this is what I am such a nerd that I can remember his character name in that movie His character's name was barry cops Was it? Yeah He plays a great. Yeah. No, he can really he's arranged me. He could play he plays a great But he also plays a great, you know, lawman and he's from a mill. It's his family's military background So, you know, he actually knew the right way to hold the gun and everything I had someone on a screen in their day said I was so glad your movie He was holding the gun the right way because every other crime We're the you know that cops actually hold a gun like Or FBI just was a little gun like this not making the movies It's always like that always but they actually hold her first like that until they're ready to draw And so and he knew that that was I didn't tell him to I actually was kind of like why are you holding the gun like that? That's how we hold guns, dude So I really yeah This was a lot of fun, you know, I I want to you know Wrap up in the next, you know, let's say five minutes or so, but let's uh Do a little rapid fire with with Matthew me and jimmy just maybe throw some um So, you know, give me your Right now like I'm not gonna say top five or top ten, but when you say You've mentioned a couple of them already, but directors that have inspired you over your career through the through the eras Maybe just you know, name a handful of them. Yeah, that I can do easily. Um favorite filmmaker of all time, Sakura Kurosawa. Um That's my all-time favorite director. Uh number two would be david lean. Um Lawrence Moravia is my all-time favorite movie. So gotta go with that Um have to drop France for Coppola. I actually got to meet him this year at the world premiere of this movie Oh, that's amazing. He was at the we've world premiered in Sicily at the terramina film festival He was there showing the 50th anniversary of the godfather. Um, so that's that's a film that uh, and you know, so certainly yeah Coppola is up there for me. He was also the coolest. Uh, I talked to him for like half an hour and He his brain is an encyclopedia. Wow, that is he's a real cinephile Oh and music person, you know, my brother did the score for this film and first he asked me about curse I asked him about curse. I was like, because they were friends and then we started going, you know curse I mean like 30 fucking movies and And Coppola has of course seen all them. I've seen most of them and He's gone one for long music. Have you seen this one? Have you seen that one? Have you seen this one? He's now when we get like 15 in and then finally at the 15th movie I don't know which one he's talking about anymore and I'm like, do I lie or do I tell the truth? I told the truth. I told him the truth and he said go watch this You go watch. You don't want it. Um, you're very nice very warm Then he did the same with my brother with music He could he knew more about music than he did about film was kind of crazy. So just yeah, you could see a genius mind there's always Coppola Scorsese of course, I mean, I don't you know, it's cliche to say him, but he's I think the go the living go um Sydney Lumet, um, yeah, I was gonna say so we talked about dog day afternoon uh as as kind of the movie that that sparked this this interest in filmmaking and storytelling and You know interweaving crime as a major a factor in that Lumet to me is It's when you go pound for pound And and you know his entire catalog Uh You put it you can put him up with with the all-time greats Oh, yeah, I I wholly agree and he did such a variety of movies, you know Right now like before the devil knows you're dead. It's I think a phenomenal film, you know, but last I mean he because I He did it for so long, you know, and he did so many different kinds of films Yeah, so Lou Man would be up there for me. See you know what I was I was just I was just Sorry, just to digress, but I want to reference as my father and I Uh, we're just watching an old Lumet movie that that's really Talk we're talking about hidden gems and things that fall through the cracks. Um, But that night night falls on Manhattan from night. Oh, yeah Oh, yeah Jimmy Gandolfini right before Tony Dominic Tienese Junior, uh junior, uh So, yeah another kind of great great new york gangsters cops He made a lot of films that were under it to you know another movie of his I love I love that one and I love Prince of the City Oh Prince of the City is amazing Such a but also like kind of like I hit it like I remember how to find that movie. Yeah So anyways, yeah, I could talk to him that all day, you know He is and if there's any aspiring filmmakers listening He wrote hands down the best book on movie directing his book making movies Is a must-read for any filmmaker that that book will just inspire you and you know Kind of what they say on writing by Stephen King is for writers I think making movies by send new event is for directors. He really just like broke down his whole process How he shoots blocks and works with actors And there's 10 bits in there that saved my ass on set like, you know, like asking actors if they want another take That's a good one. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of of movies from the 1970s as you mentioned so many great crime thrillers that inspired directors in the years to come but You know trying to you know Twisting it a little bit What would you say? I mean there's so much to talk about with those movies those great movies from the late 60s 70s 80s But what would you say since the year 2000? um In the last 20 20 years 22 years, what would you say are the best? crime thrillers or true crime movies that And as an adult maybe that you've Really gravitated towards this one's not true crime, but I loved on cut gems The safty brothers on cut gems the safty brothers and I thought I thought they don't need my But I thought it was phenomenal. I thought that was my favorite movie of that year The guy that played that the guy that I have no idea what his name is but the guy that played the the gangster in that movie um I don't know why I have not seen him in more movies since then Yeah, they cast a lot of real like non-actors in their movies. So yeah on cut gems. I thought was excellent You know really great one. It's kind of not a little not hit uh not seen as my hidden gem Is uh an indian film called gangs of wassey poor It's a it's in two parts. So it's two two-hour movies and it's it's it is based on a true gang in mum by I think And it spans a family an indian crime family over the course of like 50 years And it's awesome. It's fucking crazy and wild like it's you know Done in a really cool style like they literally have like it's like peck and paw tony scott Like it's got like these shooting scenes were like the fucking firing machine guns to dubstep It's wild, but I learned about the ones. I think there was an article where scorsese talked about it another great indians crime film company a great movie um Indian take on mcbeth also indian gangster films. I in the recent like last 20 years. I really love um And you know, of course scorsese is still I mean, I love the irish man. I thought it was excellent. I love We can do a whole other episode on that. Well, I Stepping away from the The drama In terms of the the acting was great directing was great writing was great You know jimmy and I I don't want to speak for jimmy Lots of problems with the history in that movie and and how it espouses to kind of be the The gospel when it comes to jimmy hoffa and I I wish people would just take that as great movie Scorsese is brilliant. Pacino pesce De Niro all brilliant, but it it doesn't sit well with me that Really the majority of the world right now because it was coming from De Niro and and scorsese now believe that that's what happened with jimmy hoffa and it's right Could not it be further from the truth? Right, right, but there's a whole other podcast Yeah, no, I hear I hear you I wanted to ask matthew. I know we're getting short on time but um About as you've mentioned other kind of genres and you can see as you've pointed out I have this shrine to to crime films behind me But my first love as maybe others know listening I've mentioned it before my first loves are horror and science fiction And you already sort of tipped your hand a little bit in this episode talking about a monster movie And there's a scene in the movie. I I don't want to Spoiler because it's a very jarring scene, but it's where tom's character is is having some post-traumatic stress and There's some really jarring scenes where right away. I'm like, oh, this is this is turning into a horror film And matthew, I'm sure you know what scenes I'm talking about Was that was that was that an influence? Because there's those moments where it seemed to me like you're you're drawing in at least briefly some some a type of American psycho vibes there too Yeah, no, I mean I I I do love horror. It's not the genre. I'm the most knowledgeable on but I do love it You know and certainly like there's a great I was actually for that scene you're talking about I was influenced by uh thrown of blood for a saw a film That's a take also a take on macbeth and you know Macbeth I think has a similar storyline to american murder haunted in a way where you know, he's haunted by his past So, you know, I was looking at that. Um, you know, I didn't for that scene I didn't look at too many horror films in particular, but I do I do love horror I love japanese horror, especially ony baba. I don't know if you've ever seen that but awesome movie Um, you know, I just saw the film pearl by ty west. I thought it was fucking great Um, it really I haven't seen it yet It's fun. It's weird. It's one of the weirdest tones. I've ever seen in a movie, but Um, I thought it was pretty spectacular. I was really surprised by it I'm not sure if this is how to pronounce it, but I watched uh, uh, is it quite on uh, 1964 film as a toho film And it's really creepy And I love I'm a big kaiju film fan. I love godzilla movies and things like that But um, so it's the same studio, but it's a very different kind of film. It's not like science fiction You know giant it's a ghost story. Yeah. No story. It's very it's very uh haunting creepy type of film Yeah, that film that that was a classic. Yeah No, so just to wind up one last question, uh, if you know, you could tell our listeners our viewers, uh One movie that you've seen in the last year um That people would really appreciate and and enjoy There's a lot of content out there, right? It's the gift and the curse because there's so much But then you got to kind of curate through that content to to figure out what's the best to consume What what what have you what have you been in the last year that really blew your sock or blew you away Not your sock and it it doesn't have to be a movie made this year. It can just be any film Um, you know what I just saw recently. I never seen took me a long time. It's a film classic It's a movie called peeping tom by michael paul. Yeah Um, I had never somehow this movie escaped me. I love the director and I love a lot of this film Michael Powell was a great british filmmaker did films with emmerich presperger and they did a bunch of classics like the red shoes and life and death of carol blimp, but this movie peeping tom he made by himself and uh, he made in 1960 and the movie completely Everyone out the critics panned it when it came out it was like he was vilified it ruined his career basically and made him stop directing But it's such it became a classic status and became known as one of the best movies ever made You know scorsese's talked about a lot other film scholars have noticed you it's it's a really cool Horror film, but it's actually what I love about it. And I think pearl the other movie I just mentioned that came out there's kind of like this too. It was bloodier than peeping tom But um, it's for me the best horror is psychological Um, you know and scary just being in someone's mind and peeping tom is a really great Film because it puts you in this killer's brain And it makes you so uncomfortable and on the edge of your seat Um, so if you're looking for harmony, it's not too scary. Like my my girlfriend can't handle she she couldn't sleep after parasite for three weeks Um, but you know like she she's very like not into horror But she watched peeping tom with me and she she loved it, you know, because again, it's all about psychology And that's more interesting. I think so I would I have a key for yet. Check out peeping tom Anything you've seen in the last year like more recent stuff No, I mean the peeping tom I saw this past year, but you know, I mean, I mean anything that's been made of say post Pearl definitely, um Was excellent. Um They made post pandemic released post Um, yeah pearl was pearl was really Excellent. Um, I really enjoyed tar the cape blanche. I thought that was a really really interesting movie. Uh, great performance from her So I think that's out right now too. So people can see it So do you think pearl is better than x because pearl is the prequel I haven't seen x Um, interesting. So you're gonna watch it chronologically that actually yeah, I went into I went into x totally completely blind Um, so I had no idea what I was going to I'm trying to what was the oh, I love nightmare alley The Guillermo del Toro's I got I've seen the original. I have not seen the one with bradley coop where I got to I've heard the original is great too That's box office, but I've heard it's really good. The original is great too. It They're very different, you know, it's a very different takes on the same story kind of like infertile affairs is departed, you know And oh, yeah, you can get a great watch out of both and appreciate different things about it But um, I thought del Toro did a mess from blob. I think the movies criminally underrated Well, this was this was this was sorry. No, sorry. If you have more tell us Yeah, no, those are all say nightmare alley pearl and peeping tom. So I'll give you a mixture Yeah, if I can just say uh for peeping tom I'm sorry to turn this into one of my lectures But we talk about that in my crime and film class Because peeping tom comes out around the same time as psycho and these are these are both very important in terms of a shift in filmmaking from uh More science fiction supernatural horror to reality based Horror because up until that point most horror films not all but most were either aliens vampires sorcery something like that ghost and uh psycho and peeping tom really Signified a trend toward what we would see more in the 70s and 80s which was uh, uh slasher films and More reality based horror. So I agree. I agree with the great film and an important film just in terms of the history of cinema Matthew, thank you so much for coming on. This was we what we really want to make og Podcast not just a place where people can you know get their true crime fix and their mob fix or their biker fix drug dealing fix But we want to make it a place where where true crime storytellers can come and and engage and promote And we can geek out with them like we are with you For for filmmaking and storytelling. So this was a great way for us to kind of maybe kick off that new new chapter in in in the og uh Uh, you know a new a new way for og to to produce Podcasts and and our zoom content will be kind of complimentary to some of our other stuff So thank you so much for for helping us Tip it all off and where can we where can we like our audience find out more about you and your films and you know We're sure. Yeah. Well, first. I'll thank you guys so much For having me on this was so fun and this this podcast was made for me. So You know, thank you and I made this movie for you guys and your fans and people who are into true crime and true crime stories Yes, please Follow me on instagram at matthew l genteel Um, and you follow me on my website at matthew genteel director.com I have to update it, but I do update it pretty frequently. You can also write me there. I get the email from there May take the time to respond, but I do and um The other as far as seeing american murder goes you can see american murder right now in theaters You can check on showtimes or fandango to see where playing that's playing in the city near you. Um And it's now as of friday october 28th going to be available on all digital platforms So anywhere you rent a movie itunes star amazon You know any of them you can rent the film cable And please come see it. Please check out american murder and if you like it, please review it on imdb Please review it on ron tomatoes. Please review it on letterbox river you review movies because a movie like this Is an indie film. It's a labor of love just like this podcast. I know is a labor of love You know labors of love are great. They fulfill us, but we need support So please support this i'm gonna go wait you guys original gangsters five out of five on apple and everything Um, and please please fans of the film and fans of the podcast go rank the film and recommend it to your friends If you like it, um, and if you don't just stay quiet All right, man guys, thank you so much. This was such a blast. Um, I had such a great time talking about Crime and gangsters and movies we all love and uh, you you've got me for any of my films. So Yeah, thank you very much. We'll stay in touch Yeah, you never know where things can evolve to uh, you know, we'd love to have conversations about you know Anything in the future any type of collaborations and and we endorse matthew gentile and and everything He puts out uh, he's a true true rising star in the industry You need to know about him. You need to know about his film. Um, and I and I know it's just the The tip of the iceberg in terms of where his career is going to go He's he's younger than jimmy. I mean we jimmy and I got out more than a decade on him and uh, I I can tell that this is the next uh Couple decades for mr. Gentile are are going to be bright and we're going to be a lot a lot of movies and And I and I we hope that we will see you on the red carpet at the oscars one day. Oh, yeah Let's get there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. So for uh for ben behind the glass Matthew, thank you so much scott burnstein Jimmy butchalata. We will be back next week on the og podcast. We're out