 make it in the ways that we're used to. So I'm very glad to keep going in a way, to keep iterating, to keep kind of changing this form. And so I, so one, there are a ton of interviews that I've asked several friends and colleagues of mine to join me for. So we're gonna hear from directors, we're gonna hear from Evan Ojikin. We're gonna hear from, let's see, Martine K. Green, who's in a dramaturg, president of the Literary Managers and Dramaturg Association of America. We're gonna hear from incredible Deep Tran who is a theater journalist and theater critic. So I'm gonna do interviews with as many people as I can find and bring into this space to share with you how theater's actually made. How does the director of new plays work with the playwright? How does a dramaturg work with the playwright? What is the relationship between theater journalist and theater critic and writer and theater maker and our, so I'm just gonna keep populating this space with a lot of interviews. And I missed that when I was in grad school. I didn't get necessarily the community aspect of theater makers all over the country. So I'm really thrilled to do that. And I hope you, I think you'll learn a ton. And I get to spend some time with fun people. So there's already a couple of interviews that you can watch now with my co-writer, Margot Melcon. She and I wrote Miss Bennet and the Whitthams and the incredible actor and acting teacher, Reggie D. White. So there'll be a bunch more of those. So I hope you enjoy those. I think they'll give you a ton to think about. We're also going to be doing a new book club because I don't know why. So this time next Wednesday and the Wednesday after, we're gonna be discussing a couple books on writing that I found really useful. The first one next week will be Backwards and Forwards by David Ball. If you can order this due, it's unfortunately not available on like a Kindle or digital, but there are a few chapters that if you Google this book, Backwards and Forwards by David Ball, you can see a couple of chapters for free that are scanned in Google's book repository. So that'll give you a great place to start. And even if you don't know the book, I think you'll learn a lot. The next week we'll do this book, John York's Into the Woods, which is a lot about screen and TV and stuff, but it blew my mind in how he talks about specifically dramatic structure, dialogue and character. And just, I think there's a lot here that'll get you thinking. But I wanted to start today a couple of ways. One, I will shortly rant about a thing that I've been thinking a lot about, about streaming theater and the responses to it and the proliferation of it. The short version is I think it's awesome and I think it should continue, but I will rant on that for a moment. The thing I wanted to start with is like many of us, even very seasoned writers that I've been excited to talk to. There's a new podcast coming from the Playwrights Foundation, which is located here in the Bay Area, which will be Conversations with Writers and kind of what they're like right now. What is it like to be a writer right now? What's it like kind of internally and externally as a creative but as a singular person? Anyway, but in that context, I was talking to people and see these incredible writers and we're all a bit messed up and mixed up. And some days I feel very organized and structured and certainly proud of what I do. And some days I'm just, I don't know what's going on. I don't know how to do what I used to do. I don't know, I don't know how to be an artist. I don't know how to be a writer in this time. Both of those forms, any form that your reality takes right now is fine. I mainly hope that we're all safe. I hope that people's lives and livelihoods are protected and after this we can all kind of see a new normal on the side and do the grieving we need to do and be there for each other. But however you are in this time is how you should be. I'm telling you that because I need to hear that. And I also say that there is profound work being done for those of you who are artists, which I think all of you are, in just witnessing and witnessing this moment and being aware of this moment in unpacking it as you choose to and just hearing each other and being there for each other. That is the work of an artist too and a writer. So do that work as well. And if that's all you do is just go, man, this is freaking weird. That is fine and helpful. And who knows what that will become in the long run. And it may not become anything. And that's fine too. All right. So let's start with our rant. Well, here's what we're going to do after the rant. We're going to talk about streaming theater. And then we're going to talk about comedy writing because there is, it is a thing, a specific thing. So I want to just spend a little bit of time on kind of how I do it, which would be very different than say how David Lindsay, a bear or Peter Noctriebe or all of these amazing comedy theater writers do. But I think there is some, there's some similarity that I think we can, we can talk about. We're also going to talk about writing specifically for younger audiences or family shows that what we call TYA theater for young audiences. I don't know a ton about theater for the very young, which is a whole different art form, which is thankfully very alive now. Maybe I can get somebody who's a specialist in that to join me and talk to you about that. But that's for, by very young, it means as young as six months old, what is theater for a six month old? I would like to know more. So maybe we can, I'll try to find somebody to chat with us about that. But anyway, so we're going to talk about writing for theater for young audiences. We are going to talk about, what else did I want to talk about? Yes. Kind of the process of a new play, the business of playwriting can chat, share with you what I know about working with publishers and agents and all that kind of stuff. And one thing that I really want to spend some time on is the question of, should I write this play? And that conversation about cultural appropriation, working with cultural consultants. Is this the story that you get to tell? Is it, you know, those kinds of questions? And mainly I don't have a ton of answers, but I want to make open the space for that to be a part of how you consider writing, because it's a very important one now. Okay. So let's start with our rant. I am sure as you have known, we're seeing a lot of streaming and theater. And I think it's great. I think, is it the same thing as seeing theater life? Of course not. Absolutely not. Should it be the same thing? No, what if we don't try to make it the same thing? What if it is a new thing? It is a distinctive thing and it's not trying to replace theater. It is not trying to be theater in the way that we know it as the congregationality and the convergence and the collectivity that I so miss. I'm so thirsty for that coming together. Nothing replaces that. I cannot wait to go see a play and stand up and applaud with hundreds of people at the end. But I feel like we are, and immediately doubting and jumping to, to judge it and to say, well, this is ridiculous. The theaters doesn't belong on a screen. Some theater can work beautifully on a screen and some not. And if you don't want it to be the same thing, I think that it can do an incredible, it can be an incredible gift and an equalizer in this art form, which as much as I love it can be elitist. It can cost money. It takes time and space. It, it takes getting to places. It is regional. And that stuff makes it many, that is the core of what makes it beautiful. In terms of that, the democracy of congregation that we get to come together, all of us and experience this thing together, you can sit next to anybody, but at the same times, if you can pay $10 to stream a play, I would say she should do it. I would say if you can't pay $80 to see, to go to see a play, if you can't pay the money to get there or the childcare to go see that show, the, the jobs that you may have to cancel or pause to go see, to be someplace at a certain time, I'd say, why not? Let's stream it. If we can get our unions behind this and understand the gift that this is, I'm like a lot of you watching plays at the globe in London right now. I'm watching the National Theater in London. I'm watching shows in Chicago and Minneapolis and in New York and DC. I mean, there's so much going on and I don't get to go see those plays all the time. And you know, if, if a person can't pay $80 to go see the show, they probably certainly can't pay $300 to sit in the best seats closest to the actors, which is what those streaming shows give us. I get right next to see the, the wonderful musical Tony stone at ACT or the beautiful production Gloria also at ACT Berkeley reps shows up my world is Bay Area. So a lot of these coming from that Marin theater did a beautiful recording of the world premiere show. That world premiere could have like zapped away, but we have this recording and I get to go and see it. And I get right up next to these actors in a way that you don't always get and normal theater experience. This is not a bad thing. This is a great thing. Is it a different thing? Yes. The other thing that makes me think of is like, this isn't a strange thing to televised something that is best experienced live, like, you know, all of sports. Obviously going to see like Steph Curry front row on the court of a warrior's game is like the coolest, but am I going to watch it on TV? Yes, I will. This is not strange. This whole like, wow, taking a live event and putting it on a stream platform to see at your leisure. I don't understand why this is so baffling. And I do think it does so much good. Not just at this time when of course we cannot be together. We can't do it. So to shame or demean any attempt to put more out art in the world, to put more connectivity in the world, to say, I don't know if we have months or years to plan this, it may look a little bit different, but we didn't. The fact that we acted this quickly is incredible. Bravo us. Thank you to all of these theaters that pivoted so quickly. Thank you to the union for going, you know what? Okay, just go do it. Yes. Thank you. I just, I find it amazing. Will it last? Can it last? I hope so. In some version, I would love to be able to be subscribers of theaters across the world and be able to stream their shows. And does every show need to be streamed? Probably not. Every theater probably not. We're making this up, but I think to, to say this is a just for now thing and adjust for this crazy time thing. I think that is. Visionless. I think theater has a lot of work to be done to equalize in its own terms to make it as democratic and open and welcoming as it can possibly be in our bricks and mortar way. But can, should we turn our back on this form? Absolutely not. Should we question it interrogate it and make sure it works for everybody? Absolutely. But the idea that, that it is this strange and foreign thing seems, seems a little conservative in terms of the vision that I expect theater people to have. Now I want to again interrogate it and make sure it serves people and doesn't take advantage of folks. But thank God for these people putting music out there, putting Shakespeare speeches, reading sonnets, doing scenes. And you know what, if you don't like it, if it doesn't feel right to you, just don't stream it. It's fine. Let us play. Let us have our art. Put more art in the world. Yes. Please. Oh my God. Don't be like, well, it's not perfect. Yeah, life is not perfect right now. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. That's not going to happen. Anyway. I could obviously rant on this. I'm looking forward to conversations. About this. But man, do I hope that we can take a lesson for this and see the gift that it is to share art and all the forms that we can get it. Knowing how ready I am to get back to its original form. This is an old art form. And the reason that it is old and is still here and is not perfect is because it's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's not perfect. And it adds. So let's, let's let it do that. Now and forever more. All right. Rant over. Okay. We're going to have a comedy. You're my notes on comedy. Okay. So I. The basis of all good theater, but certainly comedy is actually not the one liners. Not the witticism, not the word play. But the very sense of comedy is the one. And that means that the more we know a person, we can spot their inconsistencies. We can spot their loves and hates. We can imbue them and understand their opinion. And already build the tension required for a good comic moment. Comedy happens with tension, tension break, tension, tension, break. You can build tension a lot of ways in terms of let's say repetition is an obvious one. This rule of three, right? That the rule of pattern creates tension because we now, if there is a pattern, we want to keep that pattern going which creates tension. And when you break the pattern on the third or fourth time, that bursts the tension and we have this new normal set to do that again. You can do that with character, the pattern of a character. Well, we know they hate broccoli, hate broccoli, hate broccoli. Of course, when the broccoli comes right down on the plate, although not a very good joke, we will all go, right? Because we know a plate of broccoli on its own does not make us chortle, but a plate of broccoli in front of a character we know has a version to it. It's Indiana Jones and the snakes, right? As soon as he drops in that thing and he sees the snakes, we're already like, oh man, oh, Indy, you're gonna hate this, right? So it's about knowing and communing and understanding. So play into that. Again, this is all, in some ways all of play-writing notes are the same note, but certainly with comedy, the more specific and consistent your character is, then when they do reverse or are put in front of the thing that we already know about them, we'll drive them crazy or make them fall in love or et cetera. Then we get the pleasure of knowing and not being told. That's a good thing. We can experience it not being and not have it be told to us. Because one thing that just ruins comedy is as we know explaining the joke. So that encourages us to, as our dear Polonia says, brevity being the soul of wit, brevity, brevity, brevity. So again, if we have to explain a joke or set up a joke that takes forever, the soul of wit is shriveling in our midst. But using all the tools of character building and clippy dialogue and pace, we can have the soul of wit be alive and well because we are being brief, we are being efficient, we are being swift and smart. So one other thing to add to character is of course comedy comes from opinion. Your characters need to have strong opinions, strong passions that thing my grandmother told me about interesting people or people with interests, that is true with opinion as well. If you have an interest, you have an opinion about that thing. So it can be very funny for people of opposing opinions, of course, to be in the same conversation in the same space, even more funny if they're trying to work together. So adding opinion, using that opinion, testing that opinion is where a lot of that integral and intimate comedy comes from. Again, it's not about a pratfall, it's about knowing, oh my God, I know that this character hates that. And of course, here comes the character displaying that thing and we get to exercise that hatred humorously. So there is also a comedy strategy in strategic repetition. This is a little bit of that rule of threes thing. But if you again talk about using something you've planted earlier at a strategic moment later, now again, too much repetition is obvious. The audience is gonna be ahead of you. We don't want that. But strategic repetition is a good exercise of comedy. Plant something earlier, use it later. That's basically it. And this could be a phrase, an entrance pattern, a physicality, a symbol, gesture, whatever. But using it over, again, strategically, can have great power. And again, do the brief work of not having to explain a thing if we've already seen it once before we don't have to explain it again. So brevity, soul of wit, just listen to him as always. Contrast is funny, bringing characters of differing, as I mentioned, differing opinions, different lifestyles, different, all of that you can put them right next to each other and locking them in a room together where we will see a version of comedy or barbarism and so forth. Surprise is funny, reversal is funny. So building these things in, I've told you these before, certainly about surprise, secrets, all of that. But there is, the secret itself might not be, have a comic heart to it, but the reaction, the opinion of the people around experiencing that secret is where we get to go, oh, no, the secret came out and I already know that character one and character two are gonna be miserable about it and character three and character four are gonna be elated. Now we can all go, oh, it's gonna happen. So tension continued, reversal, contrast, surprise. Reversal of opinion can be a great source of comedy as well. This is, again, all about changing, plot is changed. How does a character grow? How does the world change from beginning of a play to an end? All things we've discussed before, but on the micro level, that can be great. And I will say the general comic principle and when important for those of you as you're writing, think about how fast comedy has to go. Comedy is not slow, it is fast. And that means reversals can be a fast, changing of opinions can be a fast. Surprises can be fast, come and go, come and go. Things move rapidly now and comedy necessitates that because of that tension. Again, slow can have a certain tension. Drama and tragedy and horror are slow tension. Comedy is fast tension. So do with that what you will. You can try to prove me wrong, but I will say every single play I've ever given, except for one, and I'll tell you which one, the note has always been faster, funnier because the drama can usually take care of itself with great actors, good direction. You can make space for the drama, for those soulful moments, for the weeps or the rages. They are more obvious and less technical. Now to be inside an actor's body as they are doing that, very technical, athletic, profoundly brilliant you have to be to do that. But comedy is so technical, the execution of it that the writing has to help that. So help with speed, go, go, go. Making characters turn on a dime in their opinion. Talk this way, then talk that way. Entrance exits, moving in this rapidity will help that comedy flow, flow, flow. And if it's not working, if it's not funny, I swear to God, just tell the actors to go faster. I love actors so much. And I know I'm deeply annoying every time that I show up at a preview and are like, this was amazing, you're fabulous, go faster, it was amazing, you're fabulous, go faster. You're not fast enough, a little bit faster. And I think Reggie D. White and I talked a little bit about this in the interview with him about the kind of actors that I love working with are the ones that know that they can take that technical note of going fast and also know that they have room to have full characters, full range of their voice and emotion and bring all of the talent that they have but also do that, execute the things technically. So comedy is the one thing. I will always work with a comic actor even if the play is dead serious because the capacity of great comedians to know how to work with text and take those technical notes and give us something clear and fast and funny and full, I find unparalleled in great comics. So that's a tiny bit about comedy. The big note for writers of course is say it out loud, hear it out loud, get somebody to read it out loud because you really don't know how funny it is or how funny you can make it if you can't hear it. So make yourself read it out loud, hear it out loud, get people around you to read it for you and know that it is supposed to be out loud. So this comedy is one of those things that it's very rarely the information that is funny, it's the delivery, it's the line next to this line, it's the reversal, the surprise, the interruption, the one, two, three, that is funny. It's more circumstantial and less informationally that is funny. That's not always true, you can say a funny thing but giving that pace and rhythm of writing is gonna be really important in comedy. I find it to be such. All right, moving right on to theater-free young audiences. Again, we call it TYA for short. Theater-free young audiences, I started my career in theater-free young audiences, I love writing theater-free young audiences and I wrote it before I had kids and I think I learned a bunch reading it now, now that I have kids and going back and be like, yeah, that was an interesting choice for children. But I've worked with some incredible companies, incredible artists and I wanted to put these together, a conversation about comedy and a conversation about TYA because they speak to each other. The thing you're gonna run up against with kids is they are very honest audience members. They will tell you immediately when they're bored if it is not interesting. And so you have to surf that and know that ahead of time so that you can give them something that is a lean forward experience for them. And a lot of it is, once again, faster funnier. Now it's not always a comedy. Kids don't necessarily always have to be laughing. They can totally comprehend and understand great depth of emotion and real issues. It's not just about who stole my popsicle or whatever. It can be about justice and family and love and death, good things, hard things, big things. Kids are totally capable of going for that. And I think that's great. Children's theater is writing for that wisdom, childhood wisdom. I will also say that I think if it is writing a normal show, I write the show to make me laugh as well as them. Now I will certainly put like a stinky foot joke in there, absolutely. And every now and then like a poop joke because man, kids love a poop joke. But it's really like a normal show. And I think the most successful versions of theater free audiences is giving them respect, treating them like mature audience members because they are, they have their own sophistication. The notes that I will give though, so if it's a normal show, we need a clear beginning. We need that midpoint where something changes and things get real big, but we need to talk about midpoints again too. And we need an ending where the character defines who they are, the journey has been completed. We know what this character has been pushed to declare about themselves and what they feel about it. All of that normal playwriting, right? Specifically, children's shows, family shows are usually under an hour or about an hour. So you gotta go quick. That may mean that you're not gonna have room for a ton of subplots, a ton of characters, but it all works out because we want to get to the fun really fast. I would say don't dawdle, don't have a lot of long speeches. Characters need to be very clear in what they want and why this is important now. Those two things, once those are clear, audiences click in and kids need to buy in really early. Now I've written both plays that are not musicals for kids and musicals for kids. And I find that both require a couple of things. Clarity and brevity, both of which we've somewhat discussed in comedy as well. Brevity is going to just make that thing speed along because as any of you who have kids or know them know that attention wanes very quickly. So the more next, next, next, next that you can put in your show, the better for kids. Honestly for adults too, but certainly for kids. I will also say there's this wonderful thing and it's a bit of magic that I experienced in some of my first children's shows. And it is the absolute and singular power of two things. One, somebody leaning forward and saying, I'm gonna tell you a story. Suddenly all eyes go open and breath hushes and we listen. Now, how long we listen and how attentively is up to you? How fast can we put facts, clarity of character, clarity of goal, what they're up against, how they're gonna go for it. Let's not wait to go for it, we're going for it now. That's how you, once you say that, once those lights up and sometimes you can actually have a character come out and say, I'm gonna tell you a story. Even better, I have a secret and I'll tell you those are lean forward moments. And you can actually do this in theater for young audiences even more kind of gracefully again in adult theater. So, but take that power in. The idea that you can say and whatever that magic is for you, that is truly the simplest magic of theater is I'm gonna tell you a story, you're gonna love it. Guess what happens next, guess what happens next. Kids need that to buy in. And the other thing is when they sing. As soon as somebody starts singing, kids stop talking, focus in, kind of cannot wait for the magic of music and song to transport them. They will buy in. So part of why such great theater for young audiences is musicals is because of that because it helps go right to the point. It's also instantly emotional. So it's very good for kids to know what do they feel? Are they okay? What's wrong? What are they worried about? What do they love? You can use music to just zap you right in and it really helps get kids all in the same emotional space and on the journey really quickly. I will say audience interaction is one that kids both love. Also, I will caution you to use it sparingly because in a live performance, man, can that get out of hand? I've had some fabulous times when the audience is invited in the show and it's also very hard to get them to like, okay, you're just going to listen quietly now. I know I asked you to like run around like crazy people. Now you have to zoom back in and listen. So use it at distinctive times, but I would say don't make the whole show that at least in my opinion, I will not do that because it's too, it can be too distracting. And there's always the one show off kid, many of us watching may have been that show off kid who will take it and run with it and then try to take it on the show and blah, blah, blah. But even a really big punchline can let kids get out of control. So I would say the more that you workshop your theater for your audience and show and do it in front of kids, you'll be able to spot those lines coming and can build something in after that as a kind of even a character coming on to me like, all right, all right, all right, you know, or start a song right after that so that the audience can be swept up and have someone enter, have something happen so that you're not sitting there with your poor characters trying to get that attention back. Yes, so again, kids can handle big ideas. My colleagues, Kate and Brian, who we'll be speaking to on Friday for our musical theater class. So excited to be right here. Then we all wrote a musical at the Kennedy Center about the moon landing. It's about physics and kids and it's the 60s in America. And so it was also about being a young black girl and looking at these white male astronauts and thinking, could I be one of those? And so you can write big, big stuff. That was directed by Don Manequil and she did such an incredible job. And I reminded me the power of theater for young audiences partly because it's not just for young audiences. It's for parents, it's for grandparents. It's a multi-generational theater experience. And if you think of it like that and that it is a real ass play, then you can, I think make the most of it. And it's so gratifying. I love nothing more than the memory of bringing my boys to see the show that we wrote and they just flipped. They were singing the songs, they still sing the songs all the time. So it's such a worthwhile thing. And I also think of theater for young audiences as building the future of theater. If you can make a really rad, emotional, exciting, well-crafted, if you can just give kids great art, they will come to want it and need it and expect it and seek it out at every stage of their life. And that certainly is a good day's work. So it's also a great way to get started, kind of much like we were talking about adaptations or history plays as being a real way to kind of sink in. Sorry, just knocking stuff over. Get your career kind of catalyze that career, get started, show what you can do. Children's Theses is a great way to do that. There's a lot of people seeking it out. And yeah, the door is a little bit more open for new writers in that capacity. I think it always has been. So anyway, think about that. Yeah, great, all right. So we've talked about theater for young audiences. We've ranted, we've talked about comedy. I'm gonna spend a tiny bit of time. What am I gonna talk about? Oh yeah, for a brief second talking about midpoints because I've talked about midpoints a lot in terms of adding danger and strangeness and upset to a character midway through. Remember, we have our beginning. The midpoint right in the middle of the show is when that character is going to be tested. Greatly some massive obstacle is put in their way. Something changes enormously for that character. And I've talked about it in negative terms, but midpoints don't have to all be negative. And this is what I'm gonna get to in a second about tracking emotionality, kind of emotional outline because the midpoint can be, depending on the ending of your play and how you're earning it, can be a great thing. It can be, they get a version of what they want. They get the first news that the person loves them back. They get a big success, a discovery, something that's still paradigm shift, right? As long as there's a big paradigm shift at the end, depending on what your play ultimately is going to be about, that midpoint doesn't have to be bad news. It can also be like, holy shit, what? Yay, you know. So anyway, just putting that out there. So part of what this feeds me into is this conversation about ups and downs. And there are two versions of this, that conversations I've had in my career, one from a professor and one from very famous screenwriter. And both of them tell me the same thing, which is thinking about the ups and downs, there's a jaggedness to the emotional journey of your character. So if you have, basically, if you have three awesome things happen in a row, five awesome things, just the full, first act is nothing but awesome things, that is, gives your character nothing to do, no range. And we need to watch the character go, good news, bad news, good news, bad news. I'm loving this, oh, this is hard. Oh, this is great, oh, this is different. Okay, I'm in the medium, oh no, that's bad. Oh wait, Rebecca, good. That is what we literally refer to colloquially as the rollercoaster, right? It's a rollercoaster, this show is TV show, this play. So think of it as such, we need those ups and downs to get the contrasting feeling that makes a character rich and interesting, to get that extra speed and acceleration that you get going around a corner, physically, that's emotionally what you get if we go from highs to lows, good news to bad news. So think about that, if your character, if the plot of your play has like lots of good news in a row or lots of bad news in a row, it's like the bad play, the bad news play, the good news play, it has to be this, we have to go up and down. And so one way to think about structuring your play or interrogating the outline that you've had or your plays is to track that. How many good things happen without a bad thing? How many bad things happen without some glimmer of hope? And if there's a lot, if it's the train of despair, then try to upset that, adjust that, iterate in that space to figure out how you can have some range. We don't really write full-on tragedies right now. Everything is hard and good and comedies aren't just solidly comic. The Greeks had that separation and that doesn't really exist now because I think we have a more complex sense of what theater storytelling wants. And good news and bad news can come right next to each other. Happiness and tragedy can be right on the heels of each other. And I think plays that really speak to that and give your character places to go. And that's really what it's about. Give your character something to do. Imagine how boring it would be for an actor to have to just be like, happy face, the whole play. Or, oh man, this is the crying play. I just never stop crying and frowning in this play. So think about that. The other version of this is to, when we think about, so that's ups and downs, right? If you have an up, put a down, up, down, up, down. And think about this on acts too. If the act ends on an up, then the next act should probably end on the down. And you can reverse that logic as well. You can reverse engineer it. If you know where you're going, because we've always talked about, the sooner you can know where your play is going, then you can reverse engineer it to go, well, if it ends with everybody killing themselves at the end, that midpoint should maybe great news. They're home. She loves me. We did it. Some version of good disruption so that the bad news of the end of the play can be that much more poignant and we have that much farther to go. We have a journey to go from midpoint to end. And opposite, if we're ending with marriage in a wedding and a dance party, then maybe that ending, that midpoint has to be, oh no, this is never gonna work. Oh God, she's dead. I don't know if that's terrible midpoint for a cavity. But anyway, go with what you want. But think about that. It is balance. It's ups and downs. It's positive, negative. This is, everything sounds like physics when I talk about it. The high valence and the complementarity of your magnetic poles need to be aligned. Great. So the other version of this, which was told to me and it blew my mind by an amazing screenwriter who talked about when we plot outline, it's often plot. The outline is usually a series of events that we're going, okay, this happens and this happens and this happens and this person does this, which causes this. And then we get to the end. Great, done. Outline accomplished. But his point, which I've literally never stopped thinking about is there is the parallel emotional outline which is what is your character feeling at each point? And the outline of how they feel about it, what their opinion is, what is going on in their heart can help remind you that this is playable. These characters are full of feeling and knowing and desire and complexity. So it's not just the drama of things happening. It's people feeling. It's the drama of people feeling. And we started this whole thing talking about the power of character, comedy as character, drama as character. The whole point of a play is watching a character test themselves. So we need to know throughout the outline every scene, what are they feeling? And honestly, if you can't describe what they're feeling, then you need to go investigate what's going on in that scene or make them feel something, amp up that opinion, amp up their passion or whatever, but your character has to feel. So you can outline the whole play and go literally just ask yourself, what is the character feeling about this? Okay, this happens in this scene. What do they feel about it? Then this happens in this scene. Okay, what do they feel about it? What are they coming into that scene with emotionally and what do they leave with emotionally? This helps you really supercharge your characters and make sure that they are invested and engaged in every scene. So I love that idea. It's a great exercise even for later drafts when you're kind of like, does this play really singing or are we ready? Making sure that every scene has an emotional arc as well as that plot arc, the dominoes of plot falling, the tension and release of emotion has to be going to. All right, okay, cool. So now we're gonna get a little bit more practical. I will start with a general overview of like how plays come to their world premieres because I think a lot of people can get confused about that and there's just a lot of questions about, I wrote a play, okay, when are we premiering it? And knowing kind of the steps so that you can look out for them, you can seek them out, you can find them and apply for them. So basically, all right, the writing of the play, getting to draft one where you come out of your, the hovel of your office and emerge bleary eyed with a script first draft is honestly, the writing begins at that point. Don't freak out. But I say that to say that your play is nowhere near done when it's done. That first draft is nowhere near done because all of the truth of what's gonna make this great theater happens when you invite people in to read it, to consult as dramaturgs and directors, to work with artistic teams at theaters to premiere and not to mention designers, actors. There's so many steps from when you go, I have a draft to that first production. Quickly I'll go through this. The first step is various versions of readings and workshops that can be at your kitchen table. Mine is always at my kitchen table first. You are then looking in series of readings. We need to read several times. And workshops, we call that usually a day or more of time together. Some rehearsal involves, which means you're gonna need a director. Ideally a dramaturg as well. Martine K. Green's discussion about what a dramaturg is and does and why are they are so awesome will happen I think next week. Look on the Facebook page, the events section. You'll see all of the classes and interviews, but that one will be very important because we'll discuss exactly what a dramaturg does, why they're so valuable, and how they work with writers, et cetera. Anyway, so at a certain point, you will involve directors, dramaturgs, obviously actors to do reading, hearing and out loud. And after every one of these steps will almost certainly be rewrites. For me, it is constant rewriting. This is what I mean when I say that the draft is, the journey is like 10% completed after draft one. It's not 90% completed, it's like 10. Because there's so much rewriting, so much rewriting instantly you'll know if things are working and great. Always ask for questions. If you feel, if you've surrounded yourself with people that you feel comfortable with, get their opinions, get their questions. This does not mean take all of their notes. I could do a whole rant on note taking. I think I did on Twitter once, but trust the notes from people you trust. And the loudest voice in the room does not mean that their opinion goes in the play and trust that you know this play more than anyone. So no matter who is involved, the writer is the eyes, ears, heart, guts, cerebral system of the play. So don't let anyone take over. If someone is taking over or promises, well, if you change this about your script, we'll do a workshop of it or we'll do a premiere of it, F that. They don't like the script. They shouldn't do it. And it's very hard to say no to those things. I know early on in your career, that's when a lot of these mistakes happen where you give over control or you take too many notes and the play becomes not yours anymore. And then at that point, what's the point? What is this? So we can talk about how to navigate that and how to find allies to make sure that you're making smart decisions. But it's the trusting that instinct. Part of what you will build as a playwright is the instinct to know which notes to take, whether it works for your play or not, whether you're like, that is a great note for someone else's play or that is a fabulous note. I'm gonna change that right now or tell me more about that. What do you mean? So yes, you are, the box does stop with you, the writer, but finding people you trust means that you can really have conversations and figure things out and go deep and truly collaborate. But it is fine to go, I trust this person and not this person. I'd be like, I can work with this actor not this actor. This dramaturg totally gets me. We're the same person. We like the same wine. We have the same coffee order. And this director, awesome, tried to take over my play. Now we're gonna work with them again, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, okay, so we've done readings. We've done workshops. We've done a crap ton of rewrites. Ideally, there will be an offer whether it comes as a part of something you've submitted to, like a new play festival, something like the O'Neill with Bay Area Playwrights Festival. If it's something that an artistic director or a literary director has reached out to you saying, I'd love to read you play. If you have an agent, it might come from agents. If you don't, totally fine. We'll talk about it in just a second. And then that offer of a world premiere. Yay, may come to pass. And what a good day that is and celebrate that day because it will be amazing, but it will also be complicated as anything is. I will tell you that once we are in the room of a new play that first week, I will almost certainly end day four or five or that first week having reprinted the entire play for the team. Meaning that there are rewrites going on so thoroughly during that first week of production of rehearsal that I am absorbing all of this in real time, absorbing the talent and the vision and the offerings of these actors, absorbing just now we're actually making it and the conversations with director and dramaturg. So even at that point, when you're like, great, they chose it. This is the play they're going to produce means that I'm still changing it. And the truth is that things can be changed up till opening night. Now the savvy playwright will know that you don't want to add a new act, even a new scene on opening because it will terrorize your actors. But tweaks are fine, adjustments are fine, line cuts are fine. At least I work with actors who know that that may be coming, know that that's a reality and know that that's what's best for the play, that we're all working to make the best play not to make the easiest performance. Hopefully those are the same thing. They often aren't because a new play is a work in progress. You learn everything about this play from that first production. So much so that you're still learning after it's already opened and you can't change things so that that second production is actually after that is when I know, okay, I learned how this play works. So it's actually does take two productions for me. And I know that as a privilege to even say some people don't get one production much less too. But this is why we need these great things like those Rolling World premieres I was talking about part of the national new play network that we need this sense of supporting a new play on its journey includes several iterations, fully realized iterations so we can know what we're doing. It is only after that production or two that you perhaps will get an offer for publishing. Publishing happens after production. So people sometimes think, and I certainly did when I, before I started this that you kind of do publishing first and the publishing is how you get the plays the play productions, but it is not. It comes after partly because they wanna publish something that has been tested and maybe there's a nice review to put on it or such. So think about it in that order. And basically why I'm telling you that is to kind of get a bit of a sense of the long game but also know where to put your energy right now. Don't worry about publishing or agents right now if you are starting on your career or mid career or whatever work with finding those literary managers those artistic directors of theater companies those actors, directors, dramatic that get you that wanna support you aim your relationships and your work at those folks because those are the gatekeepers the gatekeepers and the, you know, huggers who will be the ones to realize this. I don't know a ton about self production so maybe we can have somebody on to talk about that because that is certainly an option and can be amazing. So we can talk about those options as well. Yeah, I hope that helps. The conversation about agents is similar to the conversation about publishing houses. Shout out to my publishers. Thank you dramatists and play scripts and Samuel French and all of these amazing people who are offering a ton of free content right now if you wanna read some of their plays. It's a great thing. So anyway, agents, agents will come to you that's the short version. They'll come to you. You don't need to reach out to them. If you end up in a great new play festival if you win an award, if you have a production I think it's fine to let them know but they probably already know cause they're good at their jobs and they're surveying the theater landscape. That's how it's happened to me and most of my friends who've gotten agents. You can also, you don't have to have them I know several people who've gotten major productions at huge theaters with no agent in sight. So that is certainly possible and it requires that same kind of diligence and tenacity of finding your people. It's all about finding your people. The people that believe in you that you believe in that you trust and that will may include an agent, it may not but eventually with enough productions and stuff the agents will come and they are great when you can have them. But even still I will say I adore my agents so much and my managers as well but there's still a lot of just personal connection that happens to get plays on stages and to start new relationships with theaters. It's still a lot of me. My agents do a ton of work and I'm so grateful but it's still about people being people to each other. So you can do that without an agent and I encourage you to do so. But all of that starts with finding the theaters that do the work you love and respond to looking at the work they're doing who's working at those theaters what directors and actors and dramaturgs are working there and starting relationships with them in any way that you can follow them on Twitter for starters see their work. If they're local to you, reach out and say I loved that show that you did. I'd be happy to take you out to coffee I'd love to hear more about it but I know that you're busy I just wanted to say I love your work. That stuff is valuable and great and real and I think it is meaningful to a lot of people. Can everyone that you reach out to have a cup of coffee with you? Probably not because we're all busy and we're all quarantined right now anyway but some people might and that's how relationships begin. Okay, so that's a little bit of the business I covered some of it. There's any other questions about business things? Put them in the comments and I'll do my best to answer them. I guess we didn't talk about commissions that that can happen again with relationships. The commissions that I got were based on relationships I had formed long before that happened. Some commissions come out of the blue but again, that usually happens once you have some career to point to and plays that people can read and see and go, oh yeah, now that's exactly who that's kind of the theater I wanna do or put more out in the world. And you can also pitch. I will have to have on a couple of the people directing the directors who are coming to speak with us and their interviews can have some insight on that because I actually don't know what it's like to decide which commissions to give and such. So we'll ask some people about that because that would be good information for all of us. All right, a few more things. I would like to put this out there again. I don't have answers for this but I do wanna bring it to your attention that this is a time where thankfully we can ask ourselves who's in charge of storytelling. And what I mean by that is to bring up the question about should I write this play as a white woman? There are plays that I'm gonna say I shouldn't write. I should pass the mic. I should support somebody else whose story that more aligns with. And I am happy to do that. And I think all of us should be. This is in the same vein, like so many of us are able to now acknowledge our privilege and to shut up instead of talk. Says the woman broadcasting long monologues on Facebook all the time. But it is a good thing to ask yourself. Oftentimes in playwriting classes, I have come to learn about plays that people are writing and it's about a civil rights struggle and it's written by a straight white man. You go, mm, nothing you can't write or shouldn't and art is art, write what you wanna write. But know that when you're finding a team to choose to produce this, they might ask those questions. Why are you writing this? What soulful authenticity are you adding to this? Is this just a great story that you kind of saw and are putting on stage and writing? Now, if your play has parts of it that do not come from your personal experience, it doesn't mean you can't write it. It means that you should reach out to those communities early to do your diligence, talk to them. And frankly, this is a good sign. If you don't know anyone in those communities to reach out to and talk to, maybe that's a sign you shouldn't be writing this play. But I will use, again, one of my plays as an example when we were writing Peter Pan for Shakespeare Theatre Company, of course, the first thing I wanted to do is reimagine the role of Tiger Lily as a more authentic indigenous American experience and view her with agency and not all of the horrendous stereotypes that she comes with in other versions of that play. But I know that I can't do that by myself. So first, I insisted, and of course, Shakespeare Theatre already was on board with this, about casting an indigenous American actor. But I also know that it is not the actor's job necessarily to speak from a cultural place while they are also trying to do their job of being a great actor. So you don't wanna just have the actor in the room being responsible because partly the imbalance of power is obvious there. If it's only the actors that are representing a part of the story that writer or director don't represent, that imbalance is off. So this is where cultural consultants can come in. I was very lucky to have two indigenous American, Native American consultants. And they read the script and were very honest about things. And I said, thank you for your honesty. And they said, are you sure? Because there's a couple of things that you don't have to take these notes. And I'm like, no, the whole point is to take the notes because you know the things that I don't know. And there is certainly a version of Peter Pan that will be written by an indigenous writer. And I cannot wait for that version. I will be the first in line. But because this play had the team built in this way, I wanted to make sure to have that. So that is possible for you. And I would say, first off, pay these people. You don't just get to kind of take their wisdom as a favor, pay them, give them the time and they need to think and really talk to you. And if you're going to engage with a cultural consultant, listen to them. If you want somebody to just tell you you're doing a great job and you're totally right and super woke, then that's not what a cultural consultant is. You need to listen to them. So find somebody that you trust and can work with you. So putting them out there in general. Again, I don't have a ton of advice or specific rules because I'm learning as well. But the only thing I do know is to open the room and invite people in. And if you really do care about telling stories about communities of which you are not a part but of which you obviously care because you're writing about them or want to write about them, open the doors. Let them in, talk, listen mostly. Maybe not talk. I should put that at the end of the list. Listen, listen, listen. And they will be amazing plays that you shouldn't be the person to write. And that is fine and awesome because that opens the door for some, a voice that we desperately need. So take of that with you, Will. I'm sure this will provoke a lot of conversation and I'm happy to engage in that because I think it's very important. All right, we've talked about a lot of things. Huh, directors, actors. Oh my gosh, so much going on. Revisions, I talked about that business of writing and talked a ton about that. Yeah, what's left? I guess what's left is talking about what's coming next. Yeah, we made such a thing. This has been like a month of things that we made at this strange-ass time and I am incredibly grateful and so proud of all of you and the questions you've sent to me. And I will say some of these questions and comments that I've gotten, I've really changed the way I think about teaching, writing myself, how theater works and should work, which is part of why this series of interviews and conversations has become really important. We're gonna have a bunch upcoming, I've mentioned a few. So the next two Wednesdays we'll do our book club, like I mentioned, same time, same place. This Friday we have our musical theater class with Kate Kerrigan and Brian Lautermilk. They are amazing. They will tell you the inside scoop of how, at least we write, how they write. We've written theater for young audiences as well as main stage so we can talk about both. But bring your questions, learn about how the musicals are made. They are so smart. And again, an encyclopedic knowledge of musical theaters that they reference to the drop of the hat. So I'm very excited to share that conversation with you. I think you can learn a ton from those interested in musicals. We have, as I mentioned, Evern Odjikin who will talk about directing new plays, that director-playwright relationship. We have Martine K. Green who's gonna talk about dramaturg and playwright relationships. We have a bunch of stuff upcoming. Deep Tran is going to talk about theater journalists and theater critics' relationships with playwrights and the kind of landscape of that. I have a couple of new people that have just agreed or starting to agree, Regina Victor and Eric Ting and a bunch of others. So we're going to just kind of fill the space with these conversations. If there's something that you would really like to hear about, I can reach into my email and see if we can get an interview. People have been incredibly generous with their time and wisdom. And I hope that you're as grateful for that as I am. And yeah, thanks again for spending this hour talking about theater in a time when theater is hard to make and hard to support. But I think the way we make theater and support theater now is to make it and support it. So all of you in virtual rehearsals and sharing your monologues and your songs, thank you for those of you getting subscriptions to theaters now, sending them a few bucks. It makes a world of difference. For those of you who know artists who are affected by this, who have lost their jobs, been furloughed, lost productions, reach out to them and say thank you. And I don't know, Venmo them a couple bucks for a delivery of some noodles or something. Yeah, I have been incredibly inspired by the online social media presence of people. I know it does not replace a real hug and a real high five and real work in the room, nor should it, but it is a thing and it's a big thing. And I think it's a beautiful thing. So thank you for all that you're doing to put out in the world and reaching out. And I'll see you in many other forms in many other Facebook lives. And yeah, all right, I'm thinking of all of you. Thank you.