 Well, hello. Welcome everybody. Welcome to Brain Club. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I'm the executive director of all brains belong. Let's get oriented. Here we go. I'm going to share screen today we'll be revisiting a theme that we have discussed many times at brain club this year, which is interdependence and building a culture of interdependence and normalizing interdependence that is being connected to and relying on other people. And we'll talk about how often there's a lot of unlearning that has to be done to get us there. Brain Club, of course, especially for those who are new or who are watching after the fact on YouTube brain clubs are weekly community education program. We've been running brain club for almost two years or like a couple weeks shy of running brain club for two years. It's our weekly very intentionally created education space for the collective all brains belong community for purpose of providing education about neurodiversity and related topics of inclusion. This is not for medical or mental health advice. This is not a support group. ABB has programs that are those things but not this one. So an end will will you can participate. However, you are most comfortable as many of you have figured out you can have your video on or off. Even if it's on we don't expect anything of you. We certainly don't need you to sit still or like look at the camera, you know, any of that so please feel free to walk, move, stim, fidget, eat, take breaks, whatever, whatever you need. And everyone's welcome here at brain club. And as I said all forms of participation including observation no one's going to ask you questions no one's going to like, try to engage you like it's really participation however you are comfortable. So, you know, that you're welcome to communicate however you're comfortable to you can unmute and use mouth words for about half of tonight's brain club will be a series of pre recorded videos. During that time we'll have the chat box going chat box is always going but during that time chat box will go alongside the video playing. And the chat participation will kind of like run in parallel to what's going on the screen. And, you know, some people say sometimes with every time I make it make every time I draw attention to this it's not this way, but sometimes depending on on like how, how many people are using the chat at a time it's going really fast so just, you know, if feel free to ignore the chat just close it and don't look at it. It's not the main idea the main idea is on the screen. And to norm our view of the world here at all brains belong. We all have different brains and bodies. We have the correct type of brain or body. Just, you know, naming that explicitly. We, we think is a really important part of queuing safety, and queuing safety is the most important thing here. So in addition to affirming all aspects of identity. You know, we really want to make sure that everyone, you know, individually but but but but more so collectively has their access needs here. We have direct messaging enabled so you can send a private message if you have a question and we'll read it without reading your name. Certainly if there's any, any, any, anything that you need any adjustments made for your access needs or certainly if you feel excluded and they would please let us know so that we can take action on that. And because our goal is to create a space where people can collectively learn and unlearn, and where people can feel safe and experience something different from many people very different from the outside world. Right from the very first time that's really important to us. And in fact, we, we earlier today we just posted on social media quote from a brain club participant. And this is where I'm not masking, I'm not acting, and I'm not spending over half my mental energy asking what they expect of me. That's what we're going here, that's what we're going for here at brain club, because we're all on this journey together. Speaking of social media, we have a spread the word team volunteers who like share our stuff when it gets posted a couple times a week or whatever they have chance so if if you are interested in that. Feel free to throw your through your email in the chat or Sarah can you post the spread the word Google form sign up in the chat. Sure. Thank you. One more announcement. Oh no, I'll tell you but I'll tell you about closed captioning first and then I'll make an announcement. So, close captioning is enabled you just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of zoom, you might see the live transcript closed captioning icon, but if you don't try them more dot dot dot, and choose show subtitles. You can also do the same and choose hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. And that's my visual support to actually open the chat. So I'll see it anybody's using it. All right, so we're continuing our conversation. This month our theme is brain club greatest hits, where we're revisiting some of the most salient themes of the year with the idea that late as as the year goes by we experienced these topics differently since you know we're like learning and growing every day and all that. So, um, before we get into to our topic I also just want to announce that we have a bonus brain club this month as part of our virtual New Year's Eve event which is Sunday the 31st from five to 730 Eastern. There's zoom breakouts with activities for all ages and a special New Year's brain club is is one of the zoom breakouts. We have a really cool performers our lineup is really cool so we have Rajni Eddins poppy's planet, Barry and me and Todd Gevry all performing at New Year's Eve. So, Sarah if you can throw a link to to New Year's in the chat that would be amazing. Because we'd love if you join us. Okay, now I'm done. So, David if you can check off our first video. We actually were fortunate enough to be able to hire Sandhya to present because of the time difference. She's in Australia. It's a pre recorded asynchronous presentation but I interviewed her a couple months ago, a couple months ago, a couple weeks ago, and it's amazing and anyway so she's reading her own book for us on the 29th so save guest author. Yes, so cool. So cool. So, anyway, here we go. I'm learning the myths of independence. I'm going to try something really not really done before I like pulled these kind of ridiculous video clips they are here like ridiculous on purpose. So I'm just bear with me we're having some technical glitchiness a little while ago so maybe they won't even work we'll see. The idea was to try to capture messages, these common messages. Steve Steve says how'd you know I need these particular topics right now it's because we all need this particular topics now it's like at all times I need these things so I'm so glad I'm so glad you're here. Yes, I'm independent. Yes, I can do it. I think you get the point right like. So I think, like, this is so rewarded. Work real hard, make a lot of friends. I, I can do the thing I'm responsible I can focus I can do it myself like this message is so out there. And you know when you really think about it, this starts really early. We'll see if this video works any better. Yeah, and it says pull yourself up by your bootstraps right exactly. That's how fast kids seem to grow up. At what age, though, are they considered grown up enough to start being independent. And what are some things you can do to help encourage your little ones to become more independent. We're going to dive into the topic of independence in this video. But before we do, do give this video a thumbs up and subscribe to our YouTube channel for more parenting videos like this. First of all, let's explore the benefits of introducing independence at an early age. One of the most important benefits is that it allows children to learn how to do things for themselves, which serves as a great foundation. It teaches them that they can accomplish tasks without help, and this builds their self confidence. Self independence also prepares children for the challenges of life they might face later on, such as moving away from home and living. All right, have we seen enough. So, yeah, right exactly. So, I'm yeah right still working on that because it's a myth that's exactly right Steve it's a myth. It's not a thing. And so last last last clip. You can do things for ourselves we've learned to be resourceful and creative over the years and independence is one of those qualities that we that we treasure is perhaps even something that has been nurtured since we were young and we do we you know we tell children to be independent you know do things by yourself now go walk you know to take your bike and go around the block it's okay now. You can go to a movie by yourself and these sort of extra additional benefits are kind of seen as a value reward for independence doing things on your own. And I you know I think that's a good quality I mean it teaches us to be strong and and resilient. But I wonder if in some ways we have become too focused on independence and not enough focus on interdependence. How we're all connected. And I think one of the one of the great benefits of the system of the situation we're facing with the with the with this pandemic and it's not you know there's not many benefits but one is that we're learning how to see how we're connected to each other, because we've been put in situations where we cannot get together, we cannot, you know, socialize, we realize now how much we do depend on other people, and not just on people it goes way beyond that. And one of our bloggers Riley Gibson wrote this article is cool. Alright, I think we get the concept there too. So I, I, I wonder for someone to read Sarah's comment. Unlike that video saying independence prepares them for life challenges I feel like it prepares them for a life of trying to handle everything on your own, and not reach out for help when they need it, not a message I want to send my kids. Yep. Yes, exactly. I wonder, I just, I just wonder what what reactions or thoughts are coming up for anyone so far around narratives of independence that that that maybe you, you, you've grown up with or that you've, you, you see out there in the world. I think there's so many different kinds of messages that we get. And sometimes it's very, I mean, especially here is very cultural, but I think there are some kinds of guidance that we provide that are helpful and not. I think the worst one is being the emotional independence that is being promoted like emotional independence can be such a toxic thing. Because we end up like negating our own needs in that. And I think that's one of the most critical things that we can give to our children, especially in each other. Yeah, you know, it's not really talked about but I think that's one of the things that should be discussed when we talk about interdependent interdependence. Justina and I think, you know, connected to that like the idea that, you know, already at toddler hood people are talking about self regulation skills, people of all ages, including me. I need other nervous systems to co-regulate like a lot of the day. That's just normal. What do you think about narratives of independence? I remember. Well, it's still very much part of my life now but it was always this just figure it out. Just figure it out and you can do this. And everyone else is struggling, but you know, you have to do like it was not a choice that you know you can figure it out. I'm still figuring it out. What? What are you talking about? Totally. That resonates with me a lot Cynthia and I think, I think like with anything else, I think about those like early messages that get so hardwired and, you know, they're common. They're really common. And so, you know, if somebody grows up having been told, you know, you just figure it out, you know. Just do the thing because that's what they were taught as little kids and it's just, you know, it's intergenerationally leading to, I think, really bad impact on mental health for so many of us. When, you know, yeah, we can figure it out. We can do the thing a lot of the time at a cost, at a cost of that internalized, like internalized ableism. We'll talk more about that. And I think it's next week or the week after that's the topic of brain club, but it's just the invalidation. And I see several of you are commenting about gaslighting in the chat. Exactly. And Elizabeth says linked with ideas of independence. I think of the messages that all the elders have internalized, which is quote not be a burden. And I always feel like feeling like a burden is such a gross perversion of how you feel about yourself and how one gives and receives love. I just want to stay with that. Yes. Yes. Right, because if you did not think that you were supposed to be connected to and depend on other humans, if that wasn't the premise. Does that put you at increased risk of thinking that having needs makes you a burden, and then the, all of the impacts of that, that premise. And I think, I, I, I think, um, yeah, I forgot what I was going to say. Steve says, I'm struggling with needing to ask my wife how I did in social situations because I just can't tell right there's so many of us who have grown up, having a social situation and then afterwards getting feedback that like something happened and that was not the way we perceived it, or receive the message that there's like, you know, a right way to have been in that social situation and that's not how we did it. There's all these like levels of what what leads to that. But, you know, quote, if I try to be independent I get the crap of myself at 3am right it's this, you know, rumination of like, did I do it like, or, you know, what we hear from a lot of people is that after a situation happens, people go home and they're like replaying the situation and wondering wondering you know did I did I do the thing. What did that you know what did that facial expression mean what did that what does that silence mean, you know, all of it because those are that those are all like survival strategies. If you've had an access need to be picking up on all these cues because you're interacting with people who don't mean what they say and say what they mean. And it looks like that's resonating with Amy also. Yeah, sorry, go ahead, Sylvia. Sorry, I was going to jump in and say I've been finding more and more that there's, I'm not being told. And I haven't been told. And I find that like toddlers where they parallel play. I just find myself parallel playing through life. I don't know. And then I wonder why well I didn't get invited to this party and I didn't, you know, you see it on Facebook or you see oh they all went there but I wasn't given the go because I, you know, I may have said something or may have done something or may have not done something or, you know, but but but nobody says anything. No one will tell you. So you have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing or so so so so so it's you know all of those examples you gave Cynthia that resonates with me so much throughout my life. And the ghosting of like people just disappearing of like, you don't know why I guess it was something I said and did but you still don't know why and so you don't know like what to not repeat, but like maybe you might repeat it anyway because maybe there's not your person and you know all of it Sierra. Your, your sounds not connecting it's doing the thing with your headphone there you go. Sorry, that was my fault. I think that ties back for me to what you were saying about the goal of not being a burden for people I know working in hospice that was like the most common goal for people was I don't want to be a burden to my family and to the family they're like oh no of course we want to keep this person at home we want to take care of them that's our goal and that but disconnect is people don't know I say what they mean is that disconnect those. Oh people aren't telling me that I'm doing something wrong with people also aren't telling me that they want to help take care of me or they want to help be in this interdependent relationship with me. Yes. Right. All that switching to the next video. Okay team. It's all the things project Eve. This is my list of things that have to be done in the next several hours. So, in full transparency. I am having a lot of dissonance. Because I am not asking for help in appropriate ways. And there are barriers to me asking for help, namely, there are barriers I made up. Number one, we work really hard not to inhabit and perpetuate urgency culture. And I feel like it's just me being like hey we got to do that things and do that things need to do right now. Like, I want to not do that to other people so I take it and I keep it, and I feel it like the urgency actually still happening it's just contained here. I also like my impression management of like what people think of me plays out like all day long. So does anyone else experience that we're like it's hard to ask for help because of like the stories that you're telling yourself about about it. What is all three of all three of us. Yeah, yeah. So like, even in a culture where like we like caught like cortically like my cortex knows that this is a team that I can ask for help I am still not asking for help. Like, it like lives. I think it lives in one's nervous system and I think it's I think it's like a trauma response I think it's a trauma response that like dates back to childhood about like all the dysfunctional teams I have ever been part of or like all of the, you know, the like feedback around like you know you're there's something about you functioning on a team that is like not desirable. Right you still have that voice. At least I still have that voice in the back of my head always saying oh well, if you ask for help and people are going to think that you are not able to do it and they're going to think that you're incompetent. And I think there's also at least for me there tends to be a lot of. Oh, well if I ask for help then maybe they won't do it the way that I want it and I just do it myself anyway. And I think that's a really. I think that can be a really hard part about interdependence for at least my flavor of brain where I like, I like things done the way that makes sense to me. And that's I mean that's part of the hard part about collaboration and interdependence. Yeah for me my voice is I don't want to be a burden to others and I don't want to put this on your plate that's already full and I should be able to get enough spoons together for myself to figure it out and not be a burden. Yeah, or there's like the comparative thing like other people would be able to do this other people can figure this out. So what's going on with me that like I'm struggling right now and so it's really easy to just isolate in the struggle, even when you have a team of people that are safe, and have shown you that they will show up and support you it's still like you said it's hard. When, you know, all the way back to family of origin stuff, you know, trying to courtically override that trauma response is really hard. I also think I mean it's actually pretty new in the big scheme of things. Like that. I don't I think this is like the first, like, this is the first interdependent team I've ever been part of, like I don't have any experience, like, actually playing out. It's kind of like, do you remember that time on New Year's Eve, when we screwed up the link for our like our event that was starting in 30 seconds. And like, I like never want to feel that again, and I never want to like recreate that emotional experience like for anybody. But yet at the same time it like, I look at my list and it like kind of feels like that and so I'm like well I just hold on to that and I like keep it. It feels like like I value so much our team that if I have to choose between dividing and conquering and like maintaining the integrity like maintaining the team. Like, I will choose. I will choose the team family every time, which is also kind of dysfunctional. But that's the part of working with it with a team that you, I mean actually like, but also just kind of like working with a team where you really respect everybody and when the, I mean, I think, working in dysfunctional systems and knowing that this is something that I don't want to do this is something that I hate doing that feels really horrible for me to do. It's really hard to put that on somebody else or to ask for help with that because you know it's a miserable task and you know it's something that. I mean that's the reason that we delegate often is because it's something that we don't necessarily want to or is difficult for our brains to be able to do. Well that's really interesting right can we like, let's let's stay with that idea. Because it's interesting that your brain says, I delegate when it's something that is hard for me. Like that makes sense. It's interesting that your brain does that because my brain doesn't do that. My brain says the thing that is hard for me, I will keep and I will suffer through and I will slog through it because I can't imagine being responsible for any of my team members feeling the way I feel about this task. That's what my brain says to, and I find that I will reach out to ask for help. If it's like, really going to severely break my brain, but I won't reach out. If it's only going to break it a little bit. I think one of the helpful things about being in a team where and I think Mel you've been a really good job of this for our organization is very specifically asking people what. Basically like what their strengths are what is easy for them to do what they're able to do well even if it's not easy and having that known to the rest of the team so like. I know that filling out forms and paperwork is something that I don't mind doing and other people on the team don't like doing that so I'm fine. Taking that over whereas making a phone call something that I really hate doing but I know somebody else on the team doesn't mind that so it feels easier to delegate knowing that even though that's something that's really hard for my brain. There might be something that's not as hard for somebody else's brain and it's okay to delegate but you only know that if you ask. We have members of this team who don't hate making phone calls that's new information to me. I think we have members of the team who it doesn't ruin their entire day to make a phone call. There, that's fair. Okay. Maybe not enjoy it, but doesn't I mean I think that like comes back to our like our first team retreat like a year ago when we like reflected on you know what are the things that like come really easy to you. What are the things that like we'll destroy your day. And it's interesting because what I remember about that and like we can go look at it, but like what I remember is when asked in an open ended way what are the things that destroy your day. It was actually kind of hard to answer that question when other people started giving examples and someone's like oh yeah me too that that that destroys my day it does. But like, there's so many things that destroy my day. Um, so I think there's and like I think that it comes down to like everything comes back to an awareness of access needs and like you don't know what your access needs are. You just know that your days been destroyed. And especially when you like have this narrative of like all the times your days been destroyed and your, your the story you tell yourself about that is that there's something wrong with you. Which is why the day was destroyed because you stuck that also I think plays into this. Absolutely agree with that. And that comes back to I can't remember if it was you, Lizzie or you Sarah who talked about kind of the comparing to people in the in the other people are able to do this and get through their day and other people can whatever work at 12 hour shift why can't I do that other people are able to make a phone call and still go through the rest of their day why can't I do that. People are able to take a shower and like also work after that like, but but then when you like build awareness like you know when you when you when you think about like the all the things project like through the lens of understanding. You know, the shower for example you know with the heat and the temperature and the gravity and the math cells and you know all of it like you're like oh like, obviously that's why it costs an entire day is worth of energy to do that thing. But like, there's so many other thing or you know like when Lizzie and I, like, Lizzie right we have so many examples where we like, like things that break our brain. We're aware, like now I mean a year like a year into this we're aware of like there are certain patterns that break our brain, because it involves shifting between two documents or shifting between two websites and so we have evolved this. This strategy of like well, well we don't do that we don't shift between two websites anymore, and we've evolved these kind of workarounds that like one person's on one website and the other person's on the other. And, you know, I don't know that a year ago I wouldn't have I don't think I would have thought of that. Yeah, I think the first step is understanding you know what drains your battery and that's what all brains belong is helped me to do is to like really reflect on like what really is giving me dopamine and what is draining my battery here. And it takes, you know, understanding that in an interdependent interdependent team like different people are going to have different areas that like you were saying Sierra like that are that are that are work for them or that drain their battery and understanding that like as a basis of, you know, how to function as a team and figuring out those workarounds so that hopefully the battery doesn't get as drained. Slowing down and giving yourself permission to ask and be okay if something drains your battery that you're not a bad person and there's, there isn't something wrong with you that it's okay that your battery gets drained like that. And to not heap shame on yourself is part of the process. Because like there's different buckets of shame. So there's the shame of like, there's something wrong with me that I need help to like, I mean, intellectually, I think that for me is the easiest one to talk myself down from the other ones are much more subtle. It's like, well, if I asked for help. That means something else about me it's not that like I'm, you know, like, so, you know, Sierra gave the example of like if I asked for help, you know, they'll think I'm incompetent like I know you won't think I'm incompetent, because I actually don't think I'm incompetent like what I think you might think about me is that like I'm a micromanager and like I'm a tyrant or I'm a whatever like that, that I actually think is possible depending on how I communicate what I need help with. Because like those are the messages like those are the ones like when I was when I was a little kid like I didn't get the messages of like you're incompetent like that was I mean there are people who like you know their parents up and down they tell them that and that's super sucks and that stays in your nervous system. I didn't get that one, but I got the, your selfish yourself absorbed. All that matters is you your way of a highway so like anything that comes up that gets to those messages, like that's what that those are my barriers. Like, like, I wonder if we can like, think about are there any like common themes of buckets around the shame, like the shame barriers to interdependence that we could talk about. So I think part of bringing down the shame is like having somebody else to teach you like it's okay to like call someone up and be like, hey, can you just be on the phone with me while I'm doing this thing so my eyeballs don't fall out like that to me feels like one of the first steps is like seeing it modeled around you. I've learned about body doubling through all brains belong you know and and like Lizzie will call me and be like, can you like just be on the phone with me because my eyeballs are going to fall out if I try to do this by myself and I'm like sure. Yeah, but like, I wouldn't have thought to do that before, you know, and this is the first interdependent safety I've ever been on so like I feel okay to call Sarah and say hey my eyeballs are going to fall out. You know, and I know Sarah is not going to laugh at me or think less of me or anything you know. The opposite like I actually like we've talked about this before where it's like, I actually trust people more who are like this is hard for me I need help, or I don't know the answer to this I'm trying to figure it out like that actually builds trust for me with other people. So it's like the authenticity the vulnerability like engenders trust. And yet, it is still hard to ask for help like Lizzie you gave the example of like, well, if it's only going to break my brain a little just stuff it in, you know, like, it's only one like anyway so like what, what is it about that, despite having like cortical awareness that you belong to a team of like people who get it. What for you what do you think, what's the barrier. I think it still comes back back to the, to the voice in my head that says you're going to be a burden. If you ask too much. Right, I don't want to be too much. And those are the stories that I had I was too much. Right. Too much. Yeah, yeah, from childhood I'm too much. Yeah. Yeah, you have to stuff it. Yeah. And not be too much. Right, because if you're, if you're too much, people won't like you. Yeah. Yeah. I think a big one for me is the like everybody else is already busy everybody else is already at their limit. You know, how to write how to how to how to ask for that help from people who you know are already approaching burnout or really busy or busy with their kids are busy with their family are busy with work or whatever that looks like and with kind of urgency culture and with kind of over productivity culture, I think it's really rare to find people who don't feel like they're busy and there isn't enough time in the day already. Right. And so I think that goes back to that burden. I'm going to, I'm going to let Gabe in and then like give them an out if they don't want to be part of this. I'm just going to say are we recording. Hi Gabe do you want to be in the tail end of the brain club conversation. Otherwise, can you leave and come back in two minutes. What's happening. We're finishing the brain club recording. Oh, yeah, for the the interdependent. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. If you don't want to be, you want to text me just text you when it's done. Okay. Bye. Anyway. What else do we want to say. The other thing that just, I mean, we'll see if we use this and like, maybe, maybe some kind of meta application of this conversation around like, so it's actually objectively true that I know I can't do all these things. I know that it did get organized to at least like operationalize what are all the things that have to get done. I of course did it in a way that is very difficult for it to be shared because it's on paper. I could like type it out and make it into checklist and in fact I think I will do that. And then it might just be a matter of like, I think what my brain would allow me to do would be to invite others to self select the tasks that would not break their brains. Because actually, many of them are not. They're not terrible tasks. It's just that there's too many of them. I like that system I think allowing people to to self select, especially if you, I mean, I think at that point you need a team who's going to do that I'm going to be willing to help but I think that I think that that increases the pressure of okay what are you having to do the kind of emotional and mental labor of what are the things that this person finds easy to do what can I assign to this person work things that this person finds easy to do and actually taking that off of your plate as well. The people are like people are like in the trenches, they don't maybe they don't even like belong to a team where people talk about this kind of thing. Where do people start think like what you like Lizzie and Sarah what you guys talked about about body doubling I think sometimes finding like that one person who maybe is also struggling or also like you've talked about like has a similar brain as your struggles with similar things as you or whatever that looks like and doing asking for help in a way where you're kind of helping each other like doing bottling or body doubling or creating tasks or just talking through things together I think sometimes that can feel a little bit easier versus hey can you do this for me of hey can you help me do this together or can we work on this thing that we both have to do. That's good advice. I think when I think back up like previous workplaces that like the team dynamics were not like ours are like that is that's a strategy that I think I used a lot because it like on at on first blush it absolutely absolutely appears that quote everyone else can do the thing. And then when you identify like literally anyone else who struggles to do the thing that has like a huge impact, at least for me. And then you like, you know, in real life, like, there's a whole lot of people leave a whole community of people who struggle to do the thing in isolation because you're not the, you're not supposed to be able to do things in isolation all the time like that's the whole point about interdependence. So it was, I personally got a lot out of revisiting revisiting this theme, because even though like intellectually, my cortex knows that these things are true. And the pick of it in the trenches, those over rehearsal neural pathways, they continue to creep up. There are a lot of conversations like this. The idea of being that, that, that, you know, the more passes that you take at these on these themes that next time. You have a different perspective with the idea of being that like, you know, to shift your own narrative of your own self, and what it means when things are hard. So I'm sorry for making you keep your thought in working memory for like a half an hour. But I remember you had your hand up. Do you, do you remember what that was. Let's see what I was going to say this was back when we were talking about cultural differences. And I was just going to remark and how, when I was in my very early 20s, I couldn't move out of my parent's house fast enough. But my husband's family was Sicilian. And his mother wanted to know what was wrong with me and my parents, because I was moving out. And she just didn't understand why a daughter would leave her parents before she was married. And, you know, she thought maybe I hated my parents or something. And it was just not something any of the girls in that family did now I'm 64. And this was the 80s, but they still weren't leaving at in like the early 80s. And it was a huge cultural difference. And I was just pointing out the notions of dependence and interdependence are so culturally bound. And in my family, it's like get out and get away as fast as you can. And his family for the girls anyway it's like, hang around forever until you get married. And in for some of my other friends, like whose families were from India, you know, they definitely spent a lot of time with their families until they moved out. So I think there's definitely a different culture of interdependence with extended families that sometimes with other cultures and I think that can be really good. Sometimes it's bad, because the older generations may not understand neurodiverse kids as much, but sometimes it's really good. And it's about it's about the collective, the co a collectivist mindset of, you know, your, your, your, your, your village. And so whether it is your family you're born into or your chosen family. You know, you're right. There are absolutely cultures where belonging to belonging and engaging with your community is is valued. Yeah. And if I was starting to type something in the chat, but I think I lost it. If you just let me say something real quick. You were talking about trying to get providers to have a more holistic view of people. And I spent a couple hours today on the phone with a woman who is who recently figured out she's autistic. And she is trying, she's going through a continuing disability review with social security, trying to make sure that she's medically re approved so that she can continue to get SSDI. And to make a long story short, she has epilepsy PTSD, irritable bowel syndrome, Lyme and recommended spotted disease and a few other things. And she previously had breast cancer, but she survived that. That's not her problem anymore. So she mostly qualified in the past because of the breast cancer. But now she's what she's finding is kind of the combination of the PTSD and the irritable bowels syndrome and all the immune things are really making it difficult for her to deal with kind of the autism stuff, which explains her challenges throughout her entire life. So the point is trying to put this all together to explain to her neurologists, psychiatrists, immunologists and gastroenterologists how this all fits together. And in a way, it explained why she can't work. Right. Right. And Michelle, I think that I would, I would refer you to the all the things from how those you did. Okay. So make an outline. We did. And give this to your providers. Amazing. Oh, I hope that that is. Yes. Thank you for, thank you for, you know, thank you for sharing that. And I think there's just so many people in that situation. It's just very, very, very hard. You know, the healthcare system really, it's the healthcare system that really fragments, it really interferes with clinicians being able to zoom out and see the big picture and see things from a lens where everything's connected to everything. So thank you, Sierra. First off, I want to say I agree. I think that's a really common, a really common place for interdependence to like show up is when people ask for like, hey, you're in this field. What are some of the buzzwords that I can use to like get people to pay attention to me, whether you're networking, whether you're talking to healthcare professionals or whatever that looks like. I also just wanted to bring up something that was in the chat earlier that I thought was a really good point. I'm trying to find who said it so I can attribute the right person. Vicki maybe of that like the, the intersection between interdependence but also having a very specific way you want things done or a very specific way that you need things done for your brain of like, hey, I really want help with this but if it's, if whatever I need help organizing this information but if you put it in a list versus in a table my brain's not going to be able to process that. And like how to how to navigate that and I just wanted to just put that out there to see if other people have info because it's a hard thing for me and everyone else. I want to layer onto that though like and we see this on our team all the time like then you layer on conflicting access needs and we're going to talk about access needs and understanding your access needs and navigating conflicting access needs at next week spring club. But the idea being that if you have the kind of brain that needs a thing this way and someone else's brain needs to produce it in a different way we've figured that that out and you know we can figure that out if ahead of time we knew that. Um, but also how do I assert my access needs without inducing rejection sensitive dysphoria in the other person so rejection this sensitive dysphoria RSD. Um, it's a concept that there are many nervous systems that experience, not just negative feedback but even neutral feedback as painful. It's not a choice. My whole life, you know, I was like little kid me got the narrative that I was like always making such a big deal and I'm so dramatic but I mean it really is painful. I mean knowing about it allows me to like match the pattern because that is one of the strengths of many autistic brains is to match patterns. So okay so okay the reason I am reacting in this way is because this is the phenomenon of rejection sensitive dysphoria and then maybe I now have a chance to you know, I can move past it. Maybe override in that moment because I can match that pattern early enough, but like, you know, I spent almost 40 years not knowing that that was a thing. Love to invite anyone who hasn't had a chance to share yet in our last couple of minutes anything that's coming to mind. Jenny saying here's to a healthier 2024. Amen. And you know how you get there how you get there you know, Michelle and other spoke of culture right so culture is defined by groups of all kinds and so as being part of this community. This is a culture. This is a culture that you can bring with you out in the world. And I forget who I was having this conversation with, and maybe even have been like 10 minutes ago for all I know but just the idea that when you when you do have the experience of being like feeling safe in a group of people in the community. Especially if that's new for you. Then when you're in environments that don't feel like that you can tell the difference now like you can really discern safe, not safe, which allows you to realize that it's not you it's the environment. And that's what makes the difference. I'm just going to read Julia's comment in the chat. I've been in a situation where a friend was helping is okay now did not want to get help and I knew he needed to be healthy and safe I wonder if it's possible to influence a friend to get up. I agree. I agree with the way Chris responded in the chat top situation I'd say that gentle consistent but not overbearing reminders that you care and want them to be well, or a good start. Yeah, you know, there are many, many nervous systems that when you pressure someone to do the thing even if it's coming from a good place like when I pressure my child to take their medicine like, you know, this is like a very unidentified and benign version of what you're describing, but like they literally can't take their medicine, because I engage with them in that way. And so that's, they're not not knowing your friend and whether that's the situation there's just a lot of a lot of people who the pressure pressure to do the thing makes it literally. It's impossible to do that thing but queuing safety, whatever that looks like in any given relationship, I think is absolutely the first step. So with that, you know, thank you thank you all so much for for being here being part of our community. I know that there's quite a few people who were new tonight so you know we, we, we would love for you to come back. You know, and if you know there's many people who like are in various degrees of getting to know us it all brings belong and put a link in the chat. We know if you've heard things that that resonate with you and you want to get more connected with some of the other programs that we have going on here I'll put a link in the chat. And more about some of the other things we have going on. So, so thank you all so much and we look forward to seeing you next week will be continuing the conversation on access needs.