 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind Close Doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 54 of The Therapy Show behind Close Doors with the wonderful Bob Cook and myself, Jackie Jones. And following on from the last one, which was all about intuition, what we're going to be looking at on this next one is understanding emotional triggers and why this is important in the therapy process. What a wonderful subject. I love a trigger. I'm just looking at the zoom because I'm on zoomed in these podcasts. And I'm actually in my office, which I often am not, by the way, I'm usually down in my conservatory, but I'm in my office and behind me is Dr, a picture of the Daleks. I know people are listening to this one, be able to see that, unless you're watching it through the YouTube channel. And I couldn't say that's a trigger for me. A trigger all the way back to Dr. Who, early, earlier, Dr. Who, when I used to hide behind the satis and be so scared. So I'm not actually going to go to my child, Igor, at that out. But it just reminds me of what we're talking about. But a therapist needs to think about triggers. Yes. Yeah. I'm not sure whether I've said this on previous podcasts or not, but sometimes the universe brings me clients. If I'm going through something in my own personal life, you can guarantee that at some point in the next two weeks, there'll be a client walk through the door and talk about something quite similar. And I don't know why that is, but it does happen a lot. Yeah. Yeah, all time. And I do all the assessments still from the Institute or the low cost assessments and all the private assessments. And what that is for people who don't know, people come along who want therapy. I talk to them half an hour and then pass them to the therapist to suit them. But I explain mostly nine out of 10 times what therapy is for people who haven't had therapy before. Yeah. And I explain about therapy basically working on two levels. One is helping be aware of the triggers in the present. That may take you back to places you don't want to go. That's one level. Yeah. The other level is that the client understands how the past is played out in the present. That may need the therapist and the client going back to the past. So they can actually, so if you take that from that picture then, part of therapy and a big part of it is helping the client understand the emotional triggers that takes them back to places they don't want to go. Because they're not aware of that. They often think they're acting out in May the first, 2022, but actually they're coming from a very different place. Yeah. Yeah. They can start understanding their emotional triggers. They're halfway there. Yeah. It's a conversation that I have quite a lot with clients about triggers and bringing the past into the present. Because 99.9% of the stuff that's going on in our head in the here and now is probably connected to either in the past or trying to predict the future. And that's the key is getting in the here and now, particularly in the therapy session. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people again in the assessments right at the beginning often say, well, I know, I know when I'm triggered and especially if they've had therapy before so they understand the language. Yeah. But we need to find out what triggers people and how people be aware of that. So they, to first of all, understand the trigger. And secondly, perhaps moving areas where they're not going to get so triggered. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking then for some of my clients, sounds a ridiculous thing to say, but I think they find a lot of comfort from the past. Could you elaborate? They're very attached to it. And it's part of who they think they are in the here and now. Yes, in terms of identity. It's quite comfortable to keep that being triggered feeling around them. I'm not sure if they would know what to do if they weren't being triggered a lot of the time, if that makes sense. Well, what I think you're saying is that they're done identity, which has been part of them is a product of their past. Yeah. Yeah. So therefore, there's a sense of predictability. Yeah. Sense of continuity. Yeah. Sense of knowing who they are. So if somebody's been sexually abused, at least they might call themselves an abused person. So they have a sense of identity, predictability, continuity, which all comes from their past. Yeah. And that completely. And that might be soothing to a certain extent. And most people who come into therapy come from a level of discomfort. So even they may get be soothed from the past like we're talking about. They actually do have to change. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But that, it's a leap of faith, kind of, do you know what I mean? Because they are so comfortable in that discomfort that to allow that to stay where it belongs in the past is a big thing for a lot of people. Oh, it's very big. That's why I always say to the people who walk through the door, you know, you made a really brave step to know who's doing the first place. Yeah. Some may say minimize that. Some may say there's no choice. Yes. Yeah. So another way of looking at this and you are correct, I think, is that most people are attached to their past. Yes. Because that's who they are. And that's who they know. And that's the predictability and continuity and etc, etc. And at the same time, they also want to change. Yeah. So a lot of therapy, of course, is helping people understand themselves, understand how they have got to where they are today. And understanding that it's not the path that they can never change their past. No. What they can do is change their response to the past. Yes. So the work therapists do is helping the person change their response to the past, which is a very different thing. Yes. 100%. Yeah. I like the way you worded that because that's absolutely 100% how it is. We can't change the past. It doesn't matter how many times you go back there and we relive it. And if I'd have done this, if they'd have done that, if it's not going to change it. And one of the big things that I always say to clients is that you survived it, it's already happened and you survived it. You know, that's the bit going forward. So if they can get hold of what in the present triggers off challenges from the past. Yeah. Got more chance to change their response. Yeah. And an interesting thing, you know, that crops up a lot for me as far as like child development and things like that is, you know, if things happened when you were younger and you've now got children, that triggering can happen an awful lot because you're kind of recycling and reliving that period of time that your children are maybe going through. Yeah. And there's one thing I'm saying to many people come through the door is that, you know, what age are your children and what was happening for you at their age? Yeah. Because quite often what the three year old is doing or not doing is the trigger for the three year old onto the client. Yeah. Which is something I never knew as a parent. You know, your parent, your children and their life is their life and yours is yours. But they're so intertwined a lot of the time as far as emotional triggers are concerned. You can't help but compare your life to their life. Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I have my daughter when I was 48. So I've been a therapist 13 years by then. Yeah. And, you know, I was very aware of what we're talking about now. And when I think of the things that happened in my own history, the most difficult things that happened in my history, I was very aware that when my daughter was those ages that might trigger off a dysfunctional toxic traumatic younger self. And I think the most difficult times for me was when my daughter had teenage years because they were particularly toxic times for me. And the younger adolescents and that trauma was triggered off just by my daughter being the age she was. Yeah. But, you know, before I started training to be a psychiatrist, I had no idea that that was even a thing. No, no, I think, I think it's a really, I call this educative therapy. Yes. Yeah. Teach clients this, these sorts of, well, we sort of led and butt of our trade before a lot of people. It's like a new way of thinking. Yeah. And I've lose, you know, I do count of people come in and said, you know, to my question, why have you come to therapy? I've come to therapy because I've got some, you know, I've got young children, I've got children on the way. And they want to not pass on. Yeah. History. Yes. Yeah. Which we do. Well, inevitably, therapists are not. Yeah. I've been a therapist for 12 years, 15 years. You know, I can, I can, it's helped me a lot though. Really, really very much helped me being a psychotherapist in the, this area we're talking about with my daughter. For me, I'm not talking about my daughter, I'm talking about me understanding why I feel the way I felt didn't actually come from myself of 52 or whatever it was. It came from a very long time ago, even though my daughter was triggering that off. Yeah. So that meant I didn't, first of all, I had an understanding of that. And secondly, I didn't have to act out on that because it comes from another epoch. Yes. And that knowing that we don't need to act out on it, I think is really powerful. You know, one being aware that you're triggered and whatever it is I'm reacting to is not what's going on in front of me now. I've literally been rubber banding back to something in my past. And I don't need to be reacting and responding in that way to this what's going in front of me now. That's right. It's really powerful. Very, very powerful. And it's not just understanding is half the battle. Yeah. And the land of addictions, especially AA, I was thinking of AA, which is sprung up to deal with the world of alcoholism. They, of course, understand all this only too well. So they say to people, well, you can't drink another drop. And once you start drinking again, for example, not only you've got the physical aspect of that, but also you've got the psychological aspect of that, which will trigger you back to where you were before. So they go to the extreme of that you can't have a drink at all. Yeah. What I'm saying in the world of psychology and psychopathism is that we I think the first step is to help clients be aware of these triggers if they don't know them in the first place. And secondly, to help them go down a different different road. So they don't. So they don't. So they know the red flags. Yes. Yeah. Because forewarned is forearmed. So they say it is. Yeah. That's half the story. That's what this podcast about. The other half is the healing in another epoch. In other words, the healing of the trauma of the younger self. Yeah. As you start to heal the younger self therapeutically. And by definition, you'll understand your triggers better. Yeah. And it is all around awareness and understanding. Because can we ever be trigger free? Well, I think for I was thinking of a lot of really well known therapists who would say that cure is simply awareness. That the client becoming aware. That's cure. I don't follow that completely. I think being aware is three quarters of the we're on the road then to being cured. But we need to do more than just being aware. We need to actually go down another road. Yeah. Freud used to say that cure was awareness. But I actually think it's more and that is helping the client not just be aware. Not just understand the importance of seeing the red flags, but also to go down another road, which is more healthy. Yeah. There's a wonderful poem about that. Yeah. Today by Institute and Van Joins by Nelson Porsche, I think it's going down one road and eventually through therapy and not going down that road at all. Yeah. But the different stages you first of all have to be aware of it. And then you have to X and then X and eventually you are at a level of healing where you don't even have to go down that road in the first place. Yeah. But it's a process, not an event. No, 100%. Yeah. And we, you know, often it does feel like you're falling in the same hole over and over again. And when in the early stages of therapy, you're quite shocked when it happens, even though you're replaying the same behavior and doing the same things. It's like awareness has to come into it. Yeah. The therapist has to help the client. Look at the trauma that drives that repetitive process. Yeah. They have to help the clients look at the unmet needs to drive the repetitive process time and time and time again. And the, and is the product of their misery. Yeah. Because unless you can get to those unmet needs, unless you can go to the trauma that drives the behaviors, that repetitive behaviors, the script always stays the same. Yeah. That's why I'm not a great fan of behavioral therapy. I'm not a wonderful fan of CBT either. You know, all those listening can take a big breath, but I think we need to get to the younger self, the relational deficit, the unmet needs, the emotional traumas. Because unless we do that, the behaviors may last six months, one year, but they drop away very quickly. Yeah. That's my experience of it as well. You know, not personal, but you know, clients that have had CBT. Well, the plastic's come off. Yeah. So we have to get to the unmet needs, the trauma that drives the behaviors and the triggers. Yeah. As well as helping them understanding the red flags and the triggers. Yeah. This is what the nuances of therapy is all about, Jackie. Yeah. I think. And you know, triggers, although they can be quite emotional and knock us off kilter a while, they are a good signpost for where we are. Whether a signpost. But they're positive in helping the person understand maybe their levels of dysfunction even. Yeah. It's, you know, I don't want to be negative about triggers all the time, because they can be quite useful. It's a good marker for where we are, if that makes sense. Like you said that, because if you thought or heard me actually in a way saying triggers are negative, that's certainly not what I mean at all. Triggers are, in fact, coping mechanisms. Yeah. They're there the way people survive. Yeah. And they come from in the context of the history, it's the best the person can do to survive. Yeah. So they're very, very positive. Yeah. And it wasn't you that said that. I'm just, you know, for the listeners or people when I, you know, in therapy, I know some clients think that a trigger is quite a negative thing. Oh, no. Whereas I, you know, make peace with them because they're there for a reason. It's yeah, our benefit really. Yeah. Absolutely. And to understand those defense mechanisms, to understand those coping strategies. Yeah. And help the person deal with the trauma that's beneath all this so they can have different ways of being or coping, which are more healthy. In terms of creative adjustment is what therapy is about. Yeah. And, you know, even though it is very uncomfortable, it's, it's there like you say for our survival and our protection. So it's doing the best that it can really. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's the job of the therapist to help the client understand all this. Yeah. As well as moving to the trauma that drives it. Yeah. Which takes time. You know, nobody, nobody wants to go back there and look at these. It takes, it's a process, not an event. Yeah. We'll take the time that it takes. Yeah. Anna, and the client may well get stuck or may well procrastinate or may well take ages or may well go there very quickly. I don't know. What I do know is they will go in their own time, but they need the therapist as a witness and also to help them on the way. Yeah. And understanding is a big part of it. Yeah. First of all, I think the therapist needs to see therapy as a process, not full of techniques and doing things. Half of the clue, if you like, is how to be with the client on this voyage of discovery. Yeah. And I think that's really important when you said how to be with them. Because for me, it is being alongside them. It's not, you know, dragging them down a path. It's not being behind and pushing them. It's about being alongside them in that journey. Because sometimes we are their safety and their security so that they can go back to that place. Well, we always, we nearly always are. It's whether the client can allow us to be on that journey with them and allow us or allow themselves to get on that train. Yeah. Yeah. It's not straightforward. But one thing I do know is that for me, it's always been a humbling journey. I think clients, it is a big step. You've just said that. And even if they don't really take this on board or minimize this, what I'm going to say, takes a lot of courage. Yeah. Absolutely. Both parts, actually, on the therapist and the client. But I think, of course, on the client more. Yeah. Because it's not the therapist's, it's not their history, is it? The therapist, they may have similarities or may have flavors of these traumas we're talking about, but it's not the, not their history. So it is a big step for clients to come to therapy in the first place, which I always applaud them for, even when they minimize it in the first place. But teaching them triggers is so important. Yeah. And normalizing them as well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some clients do think that they're worse than anybody else when they walk in the room. You know, I've had clients that openly say you've never worked with anybody as bad as me and things like that. You know, normalizing the triggers and, you know, that we all have triggers. I often say to my clients, I still get triggered just like everybody else. I just know when it's happening now. That's the difference. And knowing when it's happening means I don't stay in it for as long as what I used to do. But it's not that I'm, you know, untouchable. You're absolutely right. If clients say that to me, and I've had that said to me as well, I will say how come it's so important for me to understand that? Yeah. So it's a gift when somebody says that because it's a straight internal world. But we, but, you know, the more they understand their defense mechanisms and the more they can get to the younger self and the trauma that drives it so they can go down a different road and understand those red flags. It's a therapy. Yeah. It's a wonderful job that we do, Bob. Yes. I don't do as much as I used to do it. I used to work a lot harder if you won't know, more longer hours and there was more demands on me. But it's certainly been a very and still is a very satisfying and wonderful job. It's given me a lot of purpose in life. And very, I think satisfying is probably the humbling as well. Yeah. It is. And, you know, I can hand on how to say it's an honor to work with some clients. It's been an honor to work with them and be part of that journey. Yeah. In the end of the day, it's one human meeting another, one human meeting another, even though some, well, we will have our own traumas. And I learned something along the way in some people are more, have more trauma than others. Yeah. A topic for another podcast, maybe. Yeah, because I didn't used to believe it. I, for a long time, used to talk about whether you can have one, one poison is so you can have a, you know, a drop of poison, you can have a beaker of poison. It's the same thing. And I think differently now, every work with people who have been, you know, have had very, very, very, very deeply traumatic histories. Mm. That is, it would make a really good podcast. Yeah. It would, it would. Because it is a perception of our trauma and whether one is worse than the other or whether our trauma is a trauma. And, you know, it's how the person's resilient to it or how it impacts, so there's so many variables on that. We could do another podcast on that. So we'll leave that for another day. Don't get, don't get me down that road. Don't get it started on that. No. So on that note, what we're going to be looking at next time. I've no idea. I'm sure you've got it on your list of. I'm very organised, Bob. The total contrast to what we've just been doing is love and compassion in the therapy process. Well, that's, that is such a wonderful subject. That's fantastic. I'm looking forward to that already. Well, that's the next episode. I'm organised, so I know what we're doing. So until the next one, Bob, I shall speak to you soon. Take care. Yeah. Bye-bye. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.