 So all right, we're recording it. Mandy, if you don't mind making that announcement for you. Thank you. I will. I will. Okay. So we. See. Are we missing shall we? We are, but I'll, I'll make note of that when I open and all. Okay. So. It is, I'll make that announcement Athena as part of my opening spiel. So it is 431 PM and seeing a form of the committee present. I am calling this community resources committee of the town council to order. At 4, about 431 PM. I just said that. This meeting is being recorded and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapters 22 and 107 of the acts of 22. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time. At this time I'm going to call the roll to make sure that everyone can hear us and we can hear everyone else. I'm going to start with the member that is absent and that is Shalini ball mill, and she will not be attending today. So with that, Pat. Present. Mandy is present Pam. And Jennifer present. Thank you. We've done all that, which means we do not have any public here. Oh, Kelly. Yes. All right, hold on before I want to say to the audience and attendees that we have a new minute taker. So that is Kelly and so Kelly may have a couple of questions today and we'll be dealing with them as they pop up Kelly. Yes. My only question so far is if you could spell the name of the council member who is not present. Excellent. That is Shalini is her first name. A, L, I, N, I, and ball mill is hyphenated B, A, B is in boy, H, L, and then the hyphen and then mill, M, I, L, N, E. Wonderful. Thank you very much. You're welcome Kelly. And we're going to move through our agenda. So, no public hearings today. We have on the agenda to action items. We're going to start with associate member vacancies but there's really nothing on the agenda for that I didn't left that there in case we needed to discuss anything. We'll, we'll make announcements and if the committee wants to discuss, we'll discuss. Everything is posted for interviews for December 20, 2022 at 10am. By, by zoom, everyone should have gotten their invitations, the candidates should have gotten their invitations, all the SLIs are up, and the names are in the agenda, we have three candidates for three spots. So, I guess I have it on here in case the committee would like to discuss or make any other votes regarding sufficiency of applicant pool because I believe when we originally voted that I said we would come back. And wait till we saw the SO, what SOIs were submitted. But three applicants and three up to three vacancies to fill. And we're not required to fill all three. Okay, I haven't looked at truly supplied yet so. I have, I know the names because I had to do the agenda I have not read the SOIs either. I did count the words, because I always have to count the words to make sure they comply. You're mean. It's in the rules. And I actually had to do one word count this year instead of like relying on the electronics because one was submitted by paper so I actually did count the words. I haven't seen any hands regarding or any comments regarding wanting to revisit revisit the sufficiency of the pool. Oh, Pam. Well, I'm obviously this is this is a not a great position to be in to have only three candidates and three positions. Last time we had four candidates in three positions and it made us very nervous that there were so few choices kind of a thing. So, you know, we're in a very similar situation. I think it's pretty indicative that a lot of people, one person who stepped back who was actually, you know, in the pool was was interested. So, back to me and just said, you know, the things going on in life that I just don't think I need to exacerbate by by adding meetings and, and another kind of schedule to my life so people are busy. And I, I just have to say I really appreciate that people are interested in these committees. Whatever we can do to facilitate that is good. Right. It is, it is disappointing, especially with the second round that the, you know, what I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I thought you were done Pam. What kind of how long a delay would it be if we tried to get more people makes me nervous because we've had such a hard time. It's hard to find an interview time right now. I mean, how, no, like, well, how, let's just say the weeks, you know, I don't know this vacancy was posted in July. Okay. And this is where we are after waiting. I think the last time we voted, which was mid November, I think it was three meetings ago, Pam, where we voted sufficiency with a goal of hoping more people and trying to announce more people and all and nothing came, right. And so we've been sitting sort of in this position. Since July, I would say right we kept pushing off let's go out let's make people known in August and September and October I don't think, and I don't think we've received a new SOI since late July. Yeah. Sorry, yes, calf. Oh, and calf for Kelly's benefit is a community activity form and SOI is statement of interest. Thank you very much. Why would you know that. I mean I think there's something about the ZBA description is a little, you know something we can do about it. I don't think it's what it is but it's a little intimidating. I know a couple of I reached out to just thought they were qualified or Well, I would, I would like to help Steve judge the chair, you know, at least have a full compliment it sounds like the associate member that was brought on last July has actually been very busy which I mean so that surprised me but you know maybe if you were associate members did you have to work a little bit so that the associate member wouldn't actually feel like a full member or wouldn't need to be acting as a full member. Good point. Good point. I think there was one meeting they didn't have a quorum. Any other comments on the sufficiency. I will put these notes into a report. So that so that we can let the council know we did revisit this issue after we knew the total pool to. So, and then make the comments about, we got to figure something out. It's not our committee's only role. It's the whole council's duty to figure something out. With that, I'm going to move on to the second action item. Our only other. Well, we have the major business for today, I would say it's not our only other. This is the residential rental bylaw. I apologize we put, I put new drafts of the bylaw and the regulations into the packet on Tuesday night. I am sorry that they were so late. I'm going to explain why they were and why there were so many changes. And then we can discuss everything. So after last meeting, when we were trying to discuss the regulations. In general concept, I realized that if we had a hope of getting this done in a reasonable amount of time and I took the questions from Shalini at the end about what else can we do on our agenda besides just this as part of let's not spend the next six months on just this too. That a potentially another approach to regulations needed done. And so I contacted Pam on my own, who's the vice chair and also someone who's been very interested in the language, the, the, the specific language instead of the concepts around the language. So I sat together on Tuesday morning and just hashed out some of it. That's why there is a full track changes and a clean version to try and talk through some of what this committee has been discussing and come up with some language. So we can potentially move our conversations forward, and the progress this committee is making, and that's not to say we have made tremendous progress, I will say that this is nothing about the committee not making progress to move it forward, even farther. One of the big things that will be noticed in these drafts and Pam can, and I'm going to give time for Pam to talk about anything we did to. After that discussion, we worked through things, everything's tracked, because we're not a subcommittee and all I made the final decisions for what goes into today's packet right that's everything's always up for grabs right and everything's always up for discussion, but one of the biggest things that might have concerned people is there was a lot of removal of the point system and the problem property designation from these drafts. So what we discussed and what sort of these new drafts propose, which is worth discussing today is to use the nuisance house by law as part of sort of how a rental registration permit is deemed suspendable or not so use things already in place use our code enforcement that's already in place so you saw some stuff regarding what the checklist might look like really got pared down and use the codes that are already in place. So let's use the bylaws that are already in place and yes this committee has already talked about the nuisance house bylaw and said we need to rewrite it needs revisited right. So, using that revisiting to say, let's figure out what a nuisance house is, and then, if it makes it if a house that is a rental is deemed a nuisance house at some point under that bylaw well that has ramifications under the rental permit bylaw. There will not be a draft of the nuisance house bylaw until the new year too much to do in one day. But it's a recognition also that part of the package that we would send to the Council with our recommendations would include the nuisance house bylaw revisions. So it's not an intent to say oh we need to revise that later but we're going to work it into this one and in six months we'll have a revision to that. I intend to have a draft revision of that to discuss in January so that the package that we would send to the Council would include a rental registration bylaw rental registration regulations, fee structures and fee schedule for the rental registration bylaw and a nuisance house bylaw either revision or it probably would end up being repeal and replace right, it would be all for now instead of just three we started with one now we're up to four. So that's one of the biggest changes but I wanted to address that right away because I figured people would have some concerns seen so much do Pam and then I'll go to what some of the other changes are. Yeah, I was going to say so in general the basic the basic separation of these into of the material that's been put together over the past month. It's been pulled apart into kind of two components of the bylaws, sort of the rules and regulations, and then excuse me, the rules, and then the second piece is regulations and that's where we, we can reference things like what did the checklist for safety and health security, etc. What what to those checklists look like. So it's sort of the the nuts and bolts of of of action items I'm not expressing this very well but it's sort of the details. The procedures what's going to be required on a form, all of that is pulled up away from the bylaw, which can be a little clearer and just be sort of the rules of the road. So people reading it will understand much more quickly. So what they have to deal with what the picture is that they're dealing with if they are to go to rent, or to become a landlord or something like that. So it's sort of cleaned it up into two pots of information. And then you segue directly into what my other point was going to be which is you'll see a lot of stuff got deleted from one and moved to another, like the language was moved wholesale from one from say the bylaw to the reg or from the reg to the bylaw. We saw when we took this deep dive on Tuesday morning that in some sections particularly I think it was regarding inspection procedure or something. So in those sections where the regs were nearly like that had been pulled directly from the bylaw and almost nothing else was added into the regs and so it sort of the thinking was, well if you're not adding any content into the regs and you're just copying it over delete it from the regs and put it all in the bylaw. So, so there looks like there's a lot of changes to some stuff, but some of it was just recognizing it doesn't need repeated in both places. So I'll take general questions and all and then I think we're going to we're going to start with the regulations and then move back to the bylaw and see what we get through. But general questions first and any concerns or anything like that anything Pam and I can answer before we delve into language path. A quick question and a comment. What kind of inspection checklists exist now in Amherst what does john or anyone inspecting use now. And do you have a sense of that because if it could be either expanded or simply added that would save some time. That's one question and then my comment is it's really nice to see you and Pam working closely together. I mean you've been doing it for a while but it feels really good. Thank you both. Um, so I can't fully answer that question pat in terms of rental registration there is no checklist anymore. The back of the application says sign here that your rental complies with the state building code and then it and zoning bylaws pat Pam's got a copy of it probably right in front of her but it's like it sign here and certify that it complies with these three things. Here's links to those three things and it literally links to the CMR. That's like 20 pages long. And all you're doing is certifying that so there's no like quick reference of even a summary of the CMR. What I can't answer is, is there, when a complaint is filed does john or Rob have a checklist they go in with for their inspections. I haven't asked that question I we can we can certainly ask it and I'm, I'm watching to make sure Rob is supposed to be joining us so when when he does. You know we can try and get him to answer that question. And if not, I'll send that question over to him. Thank you. Jennifer and mute. Yeah, I thought it was much easier to read. So I'm actually when I, yeah, I started reading and I was like, Oh, this is much easier to read maybe I'm just familiar with it but I think it makes much more sense. And then like when you refer to the CMR when we get to see all this and maybe it could be in the next package just so we just see all the components. And so I just want to be clear and so the nuisance house bylaw that's in the zoning bylaw. That's a general bylaw, general bylaw. So it would be the inspectors that would link the two. So if you have a violation under the nuisance house bylaw, that would be recorded so if you go to renew permit they'll know that that landlord has. So right now, I'll let Pam respond to that. I think the short answer needs to be yes, because they are the only ones that are that are responding to the complaints and registering something the records I think are probably good in their minds but they're not enabling us to. They're not enabling us to associate with with any particular building in terms of permit. And I had read the, and highlighted the nuisance bylaw a while ago, and what struck me is that it says, you know, here's the definition of a nuisance house. And they're, and there are, you know, these little definitions but it never says, if you are deemed a nuisance house, this is what happens to you it's just like there's nothing. There's no ramification of being a nuisance house it's just that you get called one. Okay. Fine I thought there was a fine connected. There may be a fine but it's again it's not like it's not clear is it one violation is it two is it three is it five. So I think, I think this is a really good opportunity to strengthen and or just clean it up. It makes sense out of it. Other general questions before we move to specific language. How do you, how are you planning to do this you want to just go like line by line. Um, basically, but I was going to do it section by section or mini section. But yeah, I would like to remind people in the audience that these documents, we're going to be talking about are in our CRC meeting packet, and the ones that they ought to look at are labeled. Um, three point be regulations for general bylaw 3.50 residential, property, blah, blah, blah, blah, clean. They just go in and look for the clean one. So that's, that's what we're talking about. Yeah, and I'm sorry that that most of us haven't really had much chance to look at them, just because they got put in so recently. Um, I, I never like to go that late, but it's just when Pam and I could get together. So, um, well, obviously we'll have plenty of time to do these other times too, but, um, oh. Athena, can you enable screen sharing? And we're going to put them on the screen so that anyone watching can also see what we're talking about. And once we get it enabled is Athena around. I know Athena is juggling, Athena is juggling multiple meetings right now. And she is our only host. Oh, Kelly is co-host. No. Give me a second. Let me try this again. We'll give her a second. So we're going to start with the application requirements and one of the things that Ham and I lagged for future discussion, we've had some discussions on this and we might want to postpone it until we can get the ECAC members in here or not. So we're going to lag for future discussion, the energy efficiency information that the ECAC has asked us to ask about in applications. So we'll treat that section, which is one H of section A. We'll look at the rest of section one A one before we look at section H. Kelly. The group that you just mentioned was the AC. ACAC, which is our energy and climate action committee. Great. Thank you. Mandy, where are we starting? Regulations and the very first line. Once I can get. I'm going to keep trying screen sharing. I texted Athena to ask Athena to do so. I have it up on my own screen, but so we'll start and I'll keep checking the screen sharing capabilities and as soon as we get it. We'll put it on the screen, but it is in the packet so that we can all go to the packet to look, but I will every 30 seconds or so click the screen share button to see if we've gotten it there. So we're going to start from juggling many things and we're still unused to screen sharing, not being enabled automatically for these. So we're going to start with regulations, clean draft application requirements, section one A to G is what we're starting with. We're going to start with a section one so we can probably redo the numbering. So there isn't just a no section to but any questions, comments, requests for changes to sections A to G. Pam. I would like to just note that I think it's pretty apparent that this this section a application requirements really needs to reflect what our registration form asks for, why would we ask for in a form and not here on the list. So at some point we probably will also end up having to adjust the application form. So I just wanted to make sure everybody was aware of that in that, and because of that, on the application form there is a section called what is your property type. And it gives examples of single family duplex. And so we obviously need to ask that question as well. And so you're looking to add a line, probably between B and C, or between A and B probably. So the order on the application form it's either a new A1 or B or B1, but it really needs to go in there it's the one. It's the second line on the form and it just says property type example single family to family, etc. And so we would just need to add that in. Yep. Okay, I will make that note on my document. Anything else until we get to energy efficiency information. Ham. A1C asks for the total number of bedrooms and bathrooms each dwelling unit to be rented. And I think what is difficult is that we're so far talking about a permit for property and the property could have 15 buildings on it. But in some shape or form we need to know, like building one has four two bedrooms, or three, three bedrooms, so that we have a count by building. It could already be on the property card. But it needs that needs to get documented in some way. Yeah, I mean the current application asks for total number of bedrooms and bathrooms and it's unclear whether it's on the property like if it's a boulders is it. Do they put like 100 and well there'd be like 300 right like or do they list each one separately and so I think this needs to be tagged for conversation with what would a form look like on how we do this. For both CND the number of occupants right because, because right now they're in each dwelling unit. And so when you get a boulders or a puffed in or a south point. You know, or townhouse. What does that application look like if they have to list every single unit separately and numbers. Now, maybe after the first year of this, they've got their system right but but I'm very cognizant of, if something like this is on the property card. See, I wonder is that on the property card and if it's on the property card does it need to be asked in an application. And so I think I'd want to hear from Rob at some point. What he thinks about some of these questions. We may, we may have some folks in the audience who also could respond to that kind of a question. Yeah. Okay, Jennifer. Or I don't know if this is helpful to have it could say, if you're a puffed in you know how many one bedroom to bedroom. You have to list them individually. One more comment. Yep. In item G which is requirements requirements for person in charge contact information. It says contact. We need a line name. We need name and that's not being asked for here. Um, so it's contact address. I mean that must be no I have G whether the owner resides in the property. Oh, am I looking at the wrong version. I probably am. Um, Once we add that line Pam, then the numbers. The numbering goes up. No, it was originally G in the draft, Jennifer. Is this page five? Or am I in the total? No, we're on page one of the regulations. Just the regulations. Okay. Cause I, I just. Found that out a little bit before this. So. Okay. Now I was going to refer back to. The bylaw for that question, Pam, because the bylaw. What we did with this one with the application is we removed. The, a lot of information from the bylaw and moved it to the. The. Regulations and that bylaw still requires the names, contact mailing addresses, valid telephone numbers and valid email addresses for persons in charge. And so this was an attempt to define, we removed those definitions of what a con valid contact and valid telephone number means. What a valid mailing address means. And so maybe it's worth putting it back into the bylaw. If it gets confusing here. We kept in the bylaw. Name, mailing address, telephone number, email address of the owners, that same information for a person in charge. Short-term rentals, some information, if it's going to be a short-term rental, and then D was the catch all and anything else in the regs. And so that's what we did. With the goal of saying, what should never change? What should we always ask for? And not leave up to the board of license commissioners to be able to modify. And we felt person in charge owner and for short-term rentals. Those two items that were in there should stay in the bylaw. And then everything else could go into the regs. And so that's what we did. And so that's what we did. And so that's what we did. We did work. Intermixed with each other. So we're on page one of the regs with that. Thoughts, Pam, on. Or thoughts from the committee on whether we would move those G one, two, and three back into the bylaw or. Well, so looking at the bylaw and there is. A definition called person person in charge. It describes owner. You know, so. I think this. The section is trying to reflect what is on the application. So it's not. It doesn't need to be overly complicated. It just. I think we end up. Having a form. And then we have the same information. And then we have a form. And then we have a form. That's spelled out in words. In the, in the regulation. So at some point we. And that's pretty clear on the, on the application form. It says property agent. And agents address agents phone number agents. Email address. So that's everything that's being asked for. In the regulation. So that's the name of, which is, I think it's pretty important. So for now, I, I'm happy having it right here in. In the regulations. Okay. Anything else until we move to energy efficiency information. We're going to move to this. Energy efficiency information and. I'm just going to summarize where. We left it in, obviously we've had a discussion before. We've had a discussion on whether to put it in or not. We've generally just thrown everything in the East, the committee asked for ECAC asked for. My concern, which is why I brought it up for potential discussion is. If you look at this list. Some of it, I think is on a property card already. So it goes back to, do we need to have it on this application? If it's already on a property card. Number one. Number two is. I don't know how easy it is to actually obtain some of this information. And what is our goal with the application form? Is it something we're okay with landlords needing four or five hours or days to complete to come up with some of this information? Or is it something that we want. To not be daunting to complete and I read some of this energy. Efficiency information that ECAC has asked us to. Put into these regs and bylaws as requesting and. If I wanted to rent out an ADU, I'd be. I don't know what I'd do with some of this, right? You know, especially depending on who's paying the utilities. You know, if I was as a landlord paying some of the utilities, maybe it wouldn't be so hard, but if I'm not paying the utilities, if the utilities are getting paid by the tenant, how do I get some of this information? It might not even be available to me. And so I don't know what the right answer myself is. But I wonder if it's going beyond what we want a residential rental permitting bylaw to be, and we can have that discussion now, or if the committee would prefer that discussion happened with. Steve roof and Stephanie Chikarello here, we can postpone it to a time where we can get them here. I think I would like both things without, I feel like what are the things that. We are requiring of. Any home. I mean, what do we have a legal right to require? I don't have to make my home energy efficient. I own it. I'm not renting it. I don't have to do anything to it. So to me, what are the most essential things that should be in there and these regulations, the regulations need not to be daunting and they need to be able to be looked at carefully. Does it really matter in terms of regulation, whether there is an electric charging station near my, at my house. Even if I'm going to rent it. And maybe it does. I just, you know, so I feel like I want to hear from Stephanie. And Steve or somebody else, but. I think that these need to be condensed and slimmed down to what is essential. In response to Pat, I agree with that. I think there are a couple of things trying to go on. And one is that certainly across town. People that are trying to, you know, improve our, our climate, our efficiency, et cetera, et cetera. Need, need the information they need data, you know, how is Amherst doing? How have we, you know, how close are we to our meeting, our climate goals? And in, in some sense, if, if there were certain questions to say, you know, do you have, do you have an EV charging station on your property? Do you have any solar panels on your property? If yes, you know, how many kilowatts or what size thing. So that we can start, start to sort of accrue a little bit of information about how we're doing the thing that struck me about asking these kinds of questions is that I don't know, I don't know actually what kind of a, I don't know if we have a database for property cards. And that's in the real sense of, you know, is this a queryable database where I can go say, how many, how many EV stations do we have on rental properties? And you query the system and it can tell you that. I don't get a sense that our property cards are truly databases. And so the only way to find that information is literally go card by card or, you know, file by file. So I think that's a good question for Rob and town staff is, you know, can we, can we find, if we ask for this information, can we even find it? If someone asks us about it. That's where I'm thinking is who, who needs the information and, and is it retrievable? Yeah. Jennifer. Oh wait. Just really quickly. Could I get last names for Stephanie and Steve and their affiliations? Yes. Okay. I'm going to go back to Steve Roof R O F. He is the liaison from the energy and climate action committee to our committee. Okay. And Stephanie's last name is Chickarello. And I always try. I'm trying to spell it right. C I. CC. A. R E L L O. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. And we now have Rob on the call. I just noticed you, Rob. So if you've been here for a while, thank you. But Rob Mora is our. He is our building. Commissioner. Great. And he's the Rob. We've been referencing throughout this meeting. Excellent. Thank you. Jennifer. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And what Pat's is saying that, you know, somebody who is renting out a house shouldn't have a greater burden than someone living in a house. For like energy efficiency necessarily. But if we might have covered this before. If you're renting out. Property and the tenant is paying the utility bill. And we were trying to create some incentives. Right. Right. I understand that. But I, and there's information. I don't know how we balance that. Yeah. I'm sorry. I thought you were done. Yeah, yeah. No, go. Well, I'm trying to figure out, you know, there's information on here that's important for a tenant. Who's responsible for the energy bills is an important, we need to know that. And the annual costs. I think that's important for tenants to know. But I'm sitting here. Do, do we want our. This is all important information and I support energy efficiency. I mean, I, and I, but I'm. Trying to understand. Why do we have such are we gathering the data for other committees through. Is the town gathering that information. Through our regulations. These aren't regulations. These are questions. Mostly. That's a good point. So, you know, I somehow rather. I don't know. It just feels odd to me or too dense or something. I don't know. And I. Yeah, and to piggyback on that, and then I'm going to ask Rob, a couple of questions to catch you up, Rob. We're working on the regulations for general by law that are in there and we're working from the clean version right now. And we're working on through it. And we have a couple of questions that came up before you joined us, but I wanted to respond to Pat before I post them to you, which is. You know, is. Is some of this information. We need to require to give tenants the right information. Or is it something that tenants should be responsible for finding out on their own. And would, would the application itself help them get that information, right? That goes back to sort of Pam's queryable database. What would we do with the information if we have it? Would it just be internally accessible or externally accessible? Yeah. I think I mentioned one, the others. It may be hard for tenants to obtain the information, but who's responsible for the utilities bills should be something that tenant knows before they sign a contract. Right. But I made a sense of what those costs are important for a tenant to know in advance. So they have. They can make a decision that fits their budget. Right. And so maybe we don't have to ask the question. I don't think it's possible for the utility bills, but maybe because that should be obvious based on. Whatever their negotiation is, but, you know, when I've tried to find utility bill information before I've purchased a house or when I've rented. It's really hard to find because, you know, the utilities aren't always willing to give you that information. You might not know particularly when I have oil heat. I don't know which company the come the prior tenant or owner of the house. I don't know. I don't know. They might have used different ones. Right. So it might not be even accessible when trying to access it. Unlike water where you can go on and see the bill for every property. Already accessible. The water and sewer. Usage is already on attached to property cards. So if you search for the property, you can see those usages. I don't know if that might also be helpful, but Rob, a couple of questions that came up. The first one was about inspection checklists. We know for residential rental by law purposes, there isn't an actual checklist anymore. But when an inspector goes in based on a complaint, or when you go into inspect, I think you've said you have to inspect the common areas of. The apartment complexes on a yearly basis, or I think some of the fraternities get inspected on a regular basis. So I think that's a good question. Do you have a checklist that you use? Or is it just sort of all in your head? It's actually a combination. And it'll vary depending on the type of building that it is. And each inspector, you know, I know. For example, the fire inspector and the building inspector that. Do common inspections together. They can go through and electronically, you know, go through their process that's also used for fraternities and sororities by the inspectors as a joint team. There's, when it's a complaint though, it's handled a little bit differently because it's generally a health, a process through the health codes. And that has a document that is used as a checklist. It's several pages and identifies every, you know, every component throughout the dwelling unit that the inspector uses and includes the code reference for the issue. And then uses that as the report to send off to the owner of the property. So it's really a mix of things. And the format is different depending on the type of inspection, which code it's based on. Thanks for that. Any follow-ups on that right now. Before we go back to applications. We're going to get back to inspection checklists later on. Hopefully in this meeting. So we'll have time then too. The next one was about. We were talking about energy efficiency information and some of this other stuff. And. Yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Well, because Rob has joined us. We were, we were asking, I was asking if he could describe. If we actually have databases on properties. I don't know that a property card or the file for a property. Card is a, a queryable database, or is it sort of a static thing that you go in and just fill it in some blocks? The reason I'm asking is. What information are we asking for? Is it something that could then be searched? You know, and, and you could search and query the database to actually use the information that we're asking for. What is our system? So our, our system. Well, let me start with what our new system is and what we've started using this year with our new permitting program, because that probably will answer your question about. How can we use this, this information? Anything that's plugged in to the application or asked through the application process. Is reportable. So, you know, so I can, I can ask staff to generate a report on the number of bedrooms in. Two to five unit properties, because that's something we asked for through the application process. So as long as we build it into the, as long as we have that information as a question that has to be completed, we can report on that information. I think what we want to be able to do ourselves that we haven't figured out quite yet. Is how to display some of that information. On the website. So in the past. Under the old system. We were able to take the permit displayed on the GIS and the mapping system under, under the property. So we've been able to have that information. And so, we've been able to access and any activity that was, you know, related to code enforcement or permitting. We've temporarily lost that ability. So we need to work with it and how to do that. You know, the systems weren't compatible. For security purposes to have that continue. But, you know, IT knows it's of great interest for us to have that available on the site. So we need to be able to easily access and do something with it. If needed. Great. Thank you. I'm going to follow up, but, but for now to be clear, that's internal access, not external access. That's right. Okay. But hopefully at some point there will be external access. And, you know, just to clarify that, you know, for, because we use this more for the building permit application that we have, there, there is public access to the building permits there. There's access by the users who are applying or are given permissions to see the back and forth discussion that happens between inspectors and applicant or contractors and so on. That houses a lot of documents, all the attachments that would normally be part of a permit application. And that's the same for a rental permit. So you've got your parking plan. You know, so there just isn't a lot of that type of information, but the system is capable of, of that as well. So, you know, one thought is, can we generate or easily generate a report so that we're not making the permits so lengthy? You know, we want to have some information on the permit. That's important, but do we need to list the year of the last renovation? But maybe there's a report that could be generated fairly easy and that being attached document that gets put into that, but we don't need to list the year of the last renovation. So we're trying to figure out how to use the system. So we're trying to figure out how to use the system we have for that type of purpose to display more information about the property. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions on the application section, section a of the regulations right now, or the, the, I could put up, but we're going to stay on regulations. Yeah. There are other things that I could discuss, but I'm going to give that to you. I would just bring up what's in the loan. Now we kind of summarize what's in the bylaw right now on that, and that's section G in the application. In the bylaw draft. I think it will get confusing if we try to shuttle attacks, or it'll come back to the bylaw, you're absolutely right. Thank you. I will. You're absolutely right. Okay. We're moving on then to inspection requirements. I just asked something, is this the document that's in the public file? Yes. Okay. It should be. It's a different date. Okay. It should be because it's there. I sent it to Athena to post these four and Athena said they were posted. It should say revision two. So what I have is revision nine. Oh, that's the bylaws. Okay. I look in the file. Under today's meeting. I've seen it. Okay. It's never mind. I don't want to. Regulations revision two, although the revision two might be off the thing. It should start three B regulations. Okay. It does. I'll follow this. That's on the screen. Yeah, I'm going to keep it on the screen now that I can. And if I'll check, if it's not in there, we'll get it in there. It's definitely in SharePoint because I've put it in. Okay. Okay. I don't know. But I did request Athena put it online. I can double check, but I usually don't lie about those things. It could have been missed is all I'm saying because. Lots of documents. So. No disparaging. Okay. I would blame myself before I'd blame Athena for not checking to make sure that it was done. That it, you know, I, I don't always check because I trust Athena so much. And so that's on me for. Yeah. No, I have to get, you know, having to go into SharePoint. I still go on to the public file, but that's okay. It is in SharePoint. Yeah. Okay. So. This section on inspection requirements. Had a bunch of changes, but not a lot of substantive, I think Pam, I think it was just a lot of moving stuff around. Between moving stuff out of by law and into regulations. But not much substantively changed and fixing up the organization. We had like two sections that talked about five year inspections. Now they're both under the same section. Things like that. You know, and so we'll start first with the frequency schedule. Not all of it is on the page right now. I don't believe. Because there's. We're missing just those two and three down below under annual or other periodic. And so. So I'll page down to that eventually, but basically it remains the same as we've been talking about, which is the goal is a three year inspection requirement. Basically. Rob's department gets into every rental unit at least once every three years. We've put there's been in the, in all the drafts. We've put there's been in the drafts. We've put there's been in the drafts. We've put there's been in the drafts. Ability to lengthen that to five years for two reasons. The first is long-term tenants. That have occupied the same dwelling unit for five or more years. And then the second one is. One we've talked about where there aren't violations. The inspections aren't finding any and the properties not having complaints for general by law violations. And so we've moved into just cleared up and sort of what that means. So sort of that, that carrot of. For landlords and tenants, you know, if you're keeping your house and your rental unit. The property in good condition and compliant with building code. And there aren't noise complaints and nuisance complaints and things like that. And then there's the annual or periodic section. Which is the shortening part, right? Sort of the, the other side of that. Which is if there are. Multiple. We can talk about which by law violations are in there. Then. You don't have to have that inspection even every three years. So those are the two sort of length inspections that, that have been in this for a while. And then there's the annual or periodic section. And then there's the annual or periodic section. And then there's the annual or periodic section. Multiple building code violations. And this is where we might have to revise the language, but, but inspection violations, if you've had a lot of them, well, then we're giving the building commissioner. The option of going in more than once every three years. Is the first one. The second one is if you, this is where. The second one is if you've had a lot of them. And then there's the annual or periodic section. That takes it to a nuisance house designation under the bylaw. As, as I said, well, no, no. Then. And if that's within the past three years where you'd normally have one inspection, well, then now you're. Can be made to be inspected more than once. More than frequently than every three years. And then the third one is. And this gets down to a number of units inspected. And the third one is to get into every dwelling unit. In a reasonable amount of time too. So for buildings that have lots of dwelling units where we're saying the building commissioners, the inspections, the, and those, those permit inspections don't have to inspect all hundred or 200 units in one go. The goal is to get into every single one of those units over a four year period. And so that's sort of the third one. And because you want to get into the units in a four year period. You want to get into every single one of those units. So that's sort of the property. More frequently than every three years. So that's sort of the new wish one that wasn't in. The. Regulations prior to Tuesday. So that's sort of the new one for this one. Thoughts from anyone, including Rob on this structure and the goal is to get into any language change that might be needed for this. And then the green sections. I didn't get all the green ones. The green is sort of those decision points. You know, three or more building fire or sanitary code. That might be three or more in. Those are things that need to be decided. Pam. Thank you. Mandy, you actually used the wording properties. The compliant. I like the word compliant properties. Would be would be inspected. Five years. Five years. And you actually used the word at least every five years. And so I would love to say. In that very first paragraph. I would love to use the word at least every five years. When I, when I see no less than. I just have to sit there and think, wait a minute. What does that mean? I would love to use the words. At least every five years. For people like me who are easily confused. It's just much clearer. And I think this is just this section because. It replies to B two. B one B. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where it is. Another, another element that we, I think got lost in translation here. Is that we had a phrase. About. Frequency of inspection for. New, new units. And so if they've just had a certificate of occupancy. Within the last three years, they don't need to be inspected. So that would probably want to be. You know, I mean, I think we've seen the bylaw under exempted inspection. I think we kept exemptions in the bylaw. This is where sometimes you have to go back and forth. Rob, are you seeing anything you want to comment on? I'm wondering in D one, just to. Figure out a way to make it clearer. That the three or more violations. Really is about. Yeah. Just because that I don't want it to be interpreted as. You know, we conduct our inspection and it's very likely there could be a list of eight or 10 things that. Are part of that inspection. That that's one. One inspection visit. So I'm not sure exactly how to word that, but that might want to. Think about that one a little bit more, just to make sure we're clear about that. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Some more or more. Somewhere in the bylaw, we refer to orders. Notice of violation and order to remedy. Would something like three or more notices of. Separate notices of violation. I assume when you issue a notice of violation, it might have 20 different violations on it. Right. And that, that would, that would take care of it. That's what I would mean. Yes. And would three be reasonable? Or, you know, what would you, where would you want to get to in terms of being able to say, we want to be in here more than every three years. I actually. I would probably like, I would prefer that to be. Well, I guess I would, what I would like is the ability to set. A follow up inspection schedule. Almost at any time. Because, you know, it's one thing to, you know, be out there and dealing with a leaky faucet. And, and, you know, the more severe cases that are the ones that I've been most concerned about having the ability to. To put into some sort of follow up inspection program. So, you know, maybe some language about, you know, for severe violations, you know, as deemed by the, the, the code official. You know, additional inspections. Maybe, maybe required, you know, some, something like that, that we can put in somewhere just to have that ability. It's very rare, but there's, you know, there's, there's the dozen properties or so that we, we know about that fall into that category that I would, would like to be able to do that. And so, you know, as we inspect properties, it's very likely that there could be more added to a list like that. Does this section here about failed inspections. Cover it or like, could we reference that. It requires you to have been in and inspected at least once. Right. I think, I think we're on time to actually. Yeah, I forgot. Yeah, I forgot about this section. I don't know the language about setting the inspection. Mandy, I would. I'll make a note to add language about. Setting inspection schedules. And then, then reference the failed inspections up in. Yeah, D one or something. Maybe. Andy, I would like to go ahead. I'm going to go back up to D one here. You can go Pam. I don't know how to tie this in, but, but somewhere in there is probably either reference to nuisance house. If a nuisance house is something is a, is a property that has achieved X number of violations. We've got it there. Okay. So yeah, this depends on what it takes to be designated a nuisance house, right? We haven't heard from that yet. Right. Okay. What number is that? That is D two D two. D two. Got it. Yep. That's what I wanted. It's there. And we picked three years on that one because of the standard three year inspection. Time frame that's above the other comment. Oh, I had one more question for Rob, which is. Obviously we have to get on to an inspection schedule, Rob, if this passes, right? Right now. We given your department sort of three years. Is that enough time or do you need four or five or what, what kind of time do you need to get into every. Permitted property. What do you think you need? I like three years. I think that's a good place to start. And that's what we're going to base our, you know, what we need to design the staffing to, you know, to be able to perform those inspections. So I think that's, that's a good starting point. And we'll see what the, you know, where we go from there. Okay. So I'm going to unhighlight that then. No other comments on that one. We're going to move to the number of units inspected and inspection standards. Basically I'm going with what's on the screen. Checklists will get to when we can put the whole thing on the screen. So the number of units didn't really change. It just got reworded. There were three subsets to this before it's exactly the same as those three, but reworded and combined into two. Again, efficiency. So the first one is if you've got less than 25 dwelling units on a property, everything gets inspected for that. Inspection for. Anything with more than for, for more than, well, so up to 25, 25 or less. So the wording could probably be, or it should be less than 25 or 25 or more is actually what it should be. And so at that point. No less than 25 units, but at least 25%. So whichever of those numbers is greater. So between 25 and 100 dwelling units on a property, it'll be 25. Above 100, it'll be 25%. And. So this, this gives the building, the code enforcement officer has the discretion to say, Oh, hey, you know, like 12 of your 25 units failed inspection for major reasons and say, we want to see another 12. You know, it, and we didn't put into the regulations right now. What those. Decision points are that's been entirely left up to the inspector to determine at what point. Is it comfortable with. Passing the building off and approving that inspection is good. And at what point are they going to say, we need to see more units this year. Instead of say next year. Pam. I think again, this is sort of a wording of a total of no less than 25 units, the last sentence here. It would be easier for me if it said. At least 25. Unit. I think it's 25%. At least 25% of the units shall be inspected. I think it's 25%, not just 25 units. No, so a minimum of 25 units shall be inspected. Well, what if it's a 400 unit. Then every talking. So not less than 25%. So 100. So 100 would be inspected in a 400 unit. Building. Okay. Or property. So not less than 25%, but a minimum of 25 units. So a 50 unit building or a 50 unit property gets 25 units, which is greater than 25%. I'm not sure where we came up with that number, but. Again, we could talk about that number. I don't know what Rob, Rob, do you have a, you know, like in some of these larger buildings, what do you think is. An appropriate percentage. And where would you set these numbers if you set them. Probably right where you have them. I'm comfortable with that. There's not that many properties. We also have. The option to review. I think that's a reasonable place to. To be with those numbers. The standards came. All of this is directly from the bylaw. So we've seen this language before. I don't think any of this language changed. It just moved from actually it was mostly in both. I think this is one we had it in both. We had, we had three pages of this listed in the regulations originally. Not this, no, the standards, not the checklist. The standards were in both. There. And then. And then there's the checklist. So we'll move on to the checklist. Which is where there were like four pages in the regulations. And what we've done here. Is basically say. It needs to have that's checklist needs to have sections on fire safety, electrical building envelope exits, plumbing, mechanical and security. Based on. The. CMR. And then in addition. That checklist should have. Should be able to confirm. So should have sections that could confirm compliance with. The land use permit. And then things that were. Put into the application. Submitted with the application, a management plan, a parking site plan. And then we added the sort of generic readily confirmable information in the permit application. So, you know, that can be massaged as we know what goes in the application. But basically. The checklist should also say everyone has to submit a parking application. The checklist should also say everyone has to submit a parking management of parking site plan. When the inspectors, they're doing the inspection. They should check off the parking site plan is actually complied with. At the property. We've added submitting a management plan with the permit. And so. They should make sure if there's things that are in that management plan that are readily confirmable, that should be confirmed when they're on site is sort of the thinking behind these Rob. Could we say up in the, the, the main, the introduction line that the inspection checklist. At a minimum shall include the following. A question for Rob. And that is if we, if we were to add either. Under E of inspection standards or here under inspection checklist. That the chief. Inspection officer. We'll update discrepancies on property cards based on inspection finding. I don't know that we ask anywhere. For that to happen. I assume because I know. You're, you and your staff are probably doing that kind of thing, but is it worth putting in here that, that we get an updated. File. In some way or form. I like the intent of that. I don't know if I want it. In the regulations. You know, we don't have the ability. We don't have access to the property card system. It's different. So what we do is. You know, share the information with the assessing department. And it would be up to them to, you know, have the time, the staff availability to take that on. I don't know how that. Will be handled with. Implementing the program with so many us doing so many inspections and gathering this information. So. I guess I can't say we can commit to. The property card updated. In any timeframe. But the goal would be to do that. You know, we have, we have a. Very interested. Assessor that, you know, is communicating very well with us on these types of issues. And we're sharing what they find and what we find in the field. And doing that every day, but. It'll be a big task when we, when we're out there inspecting these in the larger numbers. I think that goes to that earlier question is, you know, as we're asking for certain kinds of information, even if it's. Number of bedrooms and. And even sometimes a number of units. I was hoping that. Information coming from this form would become a database or be. Part of another database that. You could all use. So you wouldn't have to, you know, send. You know, copies of data to the assessor, but then somebody else can sit there and update another file, which I think would be really onerous. And not a good use of their time. So I'm looking for efficiencies. If we, if we can share this information. Yeah, I think we would love that too. You know, I'm not sure we'll ever, you know, be on the same type of system with assessing, you know, they, they have different categories that don't align with our land use descriptions, you know, building code, consider something an apartment that they don't consider an apartment. They just, it's, it's. Seems to be a whole lot more complicated to get the idea of getting everybody on the same system. I'm not sure if that would ever happen. The best we can do is give them. The best we can do. We can give that right now. The best we can do with the systems we have is given the, the newest information that we have. And ask them to, you know, reflect that in the latest property card. Oh, okay. You don't have access to the property cards. We don't have access to that at all. We can't, we can't change anything in the property cards. It's a completely separate system from what we use for the property cards. So, you know, we don't have access to the property cards. We don't have access to the property cards. We don't have access to the property cards. We don't have access to the property cards. We don't have access to the property cards. So failed inspections. Moving on to that. This is one of the ones that we moved here. From the bylaw. So we've seen all of this language before. So. I'm going to move on to the energy efficiency standards. Which we've discussed before. These did not change from previous drafts. Or from what Steve Roof had sent. A request from the committee to put in. Pam. Of all of the. ECAC. Request for information. I think the. The one thing that we've seen before. We've seen them before. They did not change from prior drafts or from what. Steve Roof had sent. A request from the committee to put in. Pam. Of all of the ECAC. Request for information. I think the. The one thing that I'm. Thoroughly comfortable with. Is. Is asking that a. A mass save audit be. Be. Conducted. And that that becomes something that at least raises awareness of. The shortcomings of any of the units. So that. As time goes on. I think that. The town might be able to partner with. With property owners to make some of the upgrades. You know, who knows where it would lead. But I, I feel really comfortable asking for a mass save audit within the three years. So one thing I. I think I forgot to ask Steve when we did this. Does mass save do audits of large apartment buildings? Or is it really only up to a certain number of units in a building? Or is it really only up to a certain number of units in a building? Or is it really only up to a certain number of units in a building? What you're worried about is this one is not that mass save audit. That one is free. That one is a means of scheduling something. And then the owner being there and we're giving them. Like. Three years to do that. And so sometime in those three years. You'll either have the place empty to hopefully be able to schedule one. Yeah. If, if tenants don't want, or you'll be able to work with the tenants to get it done. You'll be able to get it done. And then you'll be able to get it done. I don't know how complicated that is. I don't know how much. Knowledge of properties it requires. I know it is a free system. Steve told me that. But I would worry that if it gets. If it is onerous. We might have problems. You know, if it's onerous information that's just not readily available, like we might have problems. And so I think I want to talk to. The committee about. And maybe even see what this platform looks like, right? Like, could they get us a. A print out. Of. Of what this thing. What information it requires. A property owner to input. So I think that would be a good idea. Because then I think maybe I'd be more comfortable with it, but that's my worry. But right now I'm not willing to change it. But I think before I'd recommend to the committee. That it get to the council that, that we put it in here. I'd want more information about it. So. If there are no other questions on that, we can bring that when we bring Stephanie and Steve in. We can ask them those questions. Property management plan. And then we can go back to the committee. And then we can review the requirements for. A, for obtaining a permit. And obviously then in the regulations, it's not written yet. But. When we sat down on. Tuesday, Pam and I. We were thinking, you know, based on. The things that were required to under that, the, the bylaw we've been looking at and food and drink and said, well, what of that should we require for obtaining this permit? And we thought that. Well, most rentals should have a management plan, at least as part of their land use permit, such that they already have one written. Well, let's have it submitted with this application. And then the part that's not written is if there's not a management plan. In effect, because it wasn't part of a use. Class of, you know, a use permit. Mainly probably applies mostly to single family home rentals. Well, something should be submitted. And what we haven't written is what that includes yet. So that'll get filled in a little bit later. As to the things if Rob's got suggestions as to what we should. What should be required in that we'd love to have them. You don't have to do that now. But that was the thinking of that if you're getting, you know, you don't have to do that. You don't have to do that. You don't have to do that. You don't have to do that. And you want to permit. Well, you should have a management plan. And so we've added it into the bylaw. And then this would explain what it needs to include. If it's not something already passed by the ZBA or planning. Board or Rob for say AD use Jennifer. Yeah, I just had a question. Maybe I should probably know this, but is a management plan currently required. For properties under a certain size. Rob. Yeah. I think it's only required when. When there's a site plan review or a special permit. On a property. But this would be a great place to deal with things like guest policies and trash and recycling. So yeah, I'll be able to send you a list of things that we. Commonly look for in management plans. That we think should be there for this. These types of properties. I mean, this is a great idea. So. Yeah, I think in that just. On that first, then D one, I think it. To submit either of the following to meet requirements of the management plan. I think we copied and pasted parking site plan instead. The D one should be managed. I missed it in one spot. We got the language. Oh, and this one review the management plan. You can see where we pulled the language. And I was thinking about subdividable dwellings, which, you know, you can build up to three units and there is definitely a management plan required under subdividable dwelling units. That would be similar, hopefully. Yeah. So I think if it's always, if it's generally required for site plan review and special permit, well, the most of the only things that don't have that. And I know we put it into the ADU. And I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. So. Accessory use management plans. And so I believe we did, which means single family homes would probably be the only things that don't actually have. A pre-existing management plan. So parking site plan requirements haven't changed. This was already here. And that brings us to the end of the regulations. And I think that as currently written, anything people think are missing. Want to add Kelly. I was wondering if Rob could clarify. When a management plan is currently required. So right, right now, a management plan is an application requirement. It's a submission requirement for any application for site plan review or special permit. So, there are other instances in the bylaw. Under administrative approval, when site plan review is. Would be the permitting path, but there's administrative approval. Availability, you know, we'll ask for a management plan in order to make that decision. That's related to residential type properties. That's those are the, those are the instances. There are many properties that are larger than single family that. Exist without special permits or site plan reviews in town. That wouldn't necessarily have a management plan. So I think this, you know, will. Generate more management plans than just the single family homes. Thank you very much. I just wanted to make sure I have the notes accurate. Thank you. And for Rob's benefit, Kelly is our new minute taker. So. Hello. Nice to meet you. Day one and we're throwing all these acronyms. That we're trying to clarify. Any other questions before we move on. On regulations only. I'm going to go back if I could. The energy efficiency. Discussion. And. Rob, we were just saying, you know, what, what information is captured? Would it be retrievable reportable? And, and who, who needs this kind of information as we, as we look to more than 50% of our housing stock is, is rental units. And if we're going to make any kind of strides in our, in meeting climate action goals. We really, we really, you know, have to start somewhere as, and does it make sense as part of a, a requirement for getting a permit to, to rent. To. At least acknowledge that we could be making gains in energy efficiency. So our dilemma is, you know, is that something that belongs in a rental registration. Or is it, is this a tool, is this the appropriate tool and can we use the data? So I mean, my opinion is that it's appropriate. So, you know, I think that these types of questions. Well, historically on any permit application, there's a series of questions about the property, about the building that are asked. I think that everything we have is so outdated. You know, that we're moving towards asking questions like this. I think we'll, we'll do so in other instances as well. As we update those, those permit applications, you know, based on energy codes that are mandated. You know, so I think, I think we're moving in that direction. So if there's balancing that with not making the application so lengthy that it's that time consuming to get through. You know, what, what information would be really valuable. That we're going to do something with or using some way would be a good starting place. And it's really easy for us to, you know, have half a dozen questions related to energy efficiency and add to that over time. If there's the desire to have new and for different information collected. So I think, I think we should do it. Yeah, I'm apologies, but I'm going to need to leave the meeting. I am really not feeling well. Thank you for coming for the length of time you did Pat, and I hope you feel better. Feel better. Yeah, I care. So I had one question for Rob. As it relates to this, you know, balancing that, how long an application takes to fill out, you know. If we ask this information with this new permitting system, or any application, I think you've mentioned, and I just want to confirm. For a renewal, like if all of this is filled in for the first year, including something like gross square footage, which generally doesn't change year to year, right? When they sign back in to quote, apply again. So does their answers from the year before just pop up? And so that then they only have to go in and change what changed, or do they have to re-input every single one of these every time, such that they might have to look it up again every time. So if the system's working properly, they're only entering it once. And they're, they're essentially asked the question, has anything changed? You know, then provide the new information. And the goal would be to have the renewal be much more efficient than the first time around. Okay. That eases some of my concern then. Including around, we were discussing it actually with, as it more relates to number of bedrooms and bathrooms in each dwelling unit, and number of occupants in each dwelling unit, and how that might look on an application. And, you know, the bedrooms and bathrooms doesn't change every year. And so you've got a puffed in or someplace that's got 300 units. If you have to enter that for each unit every year, that's very onerous, but. Yeah, we don't want them to do that, you know, and it's similar to the parking plan. Once we receive a parking plan, they're asked the question, has anything changed in the parking plan? If not, you don't need to upload a new plan every single year with the renewal. Okay. Great. Any other questions related to regulations? Pam. No, but on that, on that very topic. I was thinking about the form. I, I don't know, but I would hope that the, the application form is actually expandable text blocks. So that if in fact they're listing five buildings with X number of bedrooms, et cetera, that it can be expanded as needed to add that information. Otherwise it's, otherwise it's not data. I think we can do that. You know, it's definitely something I want to check with Steve in my office, but I think we can break it down by, you know, building one, two, three, four, five and have that answer. I think right now we collect it just as a total number of bedrooms on the property associated with the card. Number of buildings and number of bedrooms, but I think we can break it down. By building and ask those questions. And while I'm at it, we talked about the attachment of a parking plan or management plan. Do you see those attached as. You know, a PDF or something to the primary application. Right. That's the easiest way for. The applicant to get it into the, into the system. You know, in some cases attachments like that or email to us and we're converting them to PDFs or. And getting them and attaching them for them, but it can be done through the application process as a PDF. Right. Any other questions. Seeing none. I'm going to stop this share. This will be cleaned up for the next meeting. We are not at this point going to go on to the bylaw. I'm actually going to, we'll see what kind of time we have left after I do the next couple of things. We're going to move on and take general public comment right now. And depending on how long that takes, I'm, we're going to end this meeting on time. Depending on how long that takes, we'll decide whether we have time to go back to any, or have a desire to go back to any of the bylaw or whether we have time to go back to the bylaw or whether we have time to go back to the bylaw or whether we have time to go back to the bylaw or whether we have time to just finish up our agenda and adjourn after that. And then the fee structure. We're not going to do this. We're not touching fee structure. I've sent the list, the, the item in the packet for street free structure is what I requested Rob to provide some answers to or his department to, I gave him. Essentially to the first week in January with a goal of bringing it to the public comment. I think it was unreasonable to ask that it be provided by this meeting. So yeah, we're, but I put the document in so people could see what I forwarded to Rob. So right now we're going to take public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of CRC residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes. And CRC in general does not engage in a dialogue or comment on matters raised during public comment. So at this time, if you'd like to make public comment, please raise your hand and I will. Call on people as they are and hopefully Athena's present to be able to do all the unmuting. If not, we'll figure it out. Excellent. Thank you, Athena. So Patrick Kamens, please unmute yourself, identify where you live or who you're speaking on behalf of, and then make your comment. Well, thank you, Patrick Kamens from Kamens Real Estate. I just wanted to mention that Jennifer, said she was struggling to find the regulations and we were to the regulations weren't actually up on the website. So I thought about five 30 from when I looked so it was really difficult for us to follow with you because I'm on my phone and trying to, I mean, I tried my best and listen. So I would like to offer that maybe so we could have the public have time to prepare for this meeting if we could address some of these things at the next meeting so that the public has time to actually have a chance to read the regulations as they weren't provided, you know, until just a few minutes ago and I feel very scared to speak on many things, even though I'm listening to what you're saying and following along. I find it difficult without actually, you know, seeing it all there and trying to follow along on my phone. Thank you. Thank you for that comment, Patrick. This was not the only time we have regulations on it will be on future agendas. And I apologize for them not having been on in online meetings. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Prior to the meeting. I should have checked. Renata, please unmute yourself and make your statement and identify where you live and make your statement. Hi, Renata Shepard. Justice driving Amherst. I would. I don't know how possible this is, but. I would like to see the committee maybe do a mock. We can. We can go. Play thinking of where you live. If you own or whatever. And put yourself in a landlord shoes and go through this registration process with all the requirements. And like pretend you're renting to a student or. To a family. regulations and maybe go to each item and see how much you're going to spend in terms of time and fees versus how much you spend for housing versus how much you're going to be getting in rent and see how feasible all the little details are to get done or information to get acquired and input into the system. Thank you. Thank you for your comment, Renata. Seeing no other hands, we are going to close public comment period right now. As I said, I apologize for the documents not being online. I should have checked to I should have checked to confirm that they were. Does Athena? Yeah, I'll apologize for that. Mandy, you did send them to me and I didn't send confirmation because I hadn't posted them. So I thought I had confirmation. So you did, but I didn't lie. But I do apologize, especially to Mr. Crossner or to Mr. Caimans, who was looking for them at the meeting. Sorry about that. No. And I had not realized I hadn't gotten a confirmation that Athena is always so good about sending them to me when it is done. So errors around and I'll take full responsibility for all of it because I'm chair. So we have minutes to do an announcement. Does the committee want to go back to bylaws for brief five minutes or shall we just do minutes announcements and then end the meeting early? I think I'm getting some early. It's fine, because some of us have another meeting after. So I figured it might be nice to finally end early instead of five minutes late. So with that, we have minutes of December 1, 2022 to pass. They are in the packet. Any comments on them? Pam? I don't recall seeing any issues and I would make a motion to approve as posted. Is there a second? Second. Jennifer, seconds. Are we ready to vote on that? I'll start. I'm an I, Pam. I and Jennifer. I they are approved as presented. And what was the excuse me? What was the date on them? December 1st minutes. Thank you. And for the record, that's that's three to zero with two members absent. Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Two members absent. Pat DeAngelis and Shawnee Balmille are absent. And Pat, Pat for the note left around six o'clock. Yeah. Announcements are sort of the same as next agenda preview, but but there's a little bit of difference on some of them. So December 20th at 10am are ZBA interviews and recommendations they will be on zoom. So that is this coming Tuesday at 10am. So that's half announcement, half next agenda preview. Those are the only things on the December 20th agenda is the interviews and then committee recommendations. Can I just ask again, when you think you'll because I mean, we're not having any more public forums on the bylaw, right? But we don't have any scheduled at this point. We could try and schedule one now that we're getting closer to having sort of full discussion on everything. If that would be desirable, I can look at dates in late January, early February for sort of a public forum on hopefully by then we'll have a draft nuisance bylaw on sort of the whole package. It would probably be good to have a public forum on the whole package maybe before we vote a final one. We won't have good drafts of probably fee structure or nuisance until the end of January in terms of timing. So we'd probably be looking early to mid February for something like that if the committee would want to have one. And then we'd probably go back to the full council. So the goal is to be at the full council. What did I say? The end of well, I think I said to the council, the end of January is extremely hopeful, but I don't expect it until the end of February, if you're earliest. Yeah, I the goal would be the end of February. So I guess the goal would be the first March meeting for the council, right? Okay. So four more CRC regular meetings. And maybe in that fourth one, I it's still very ambitious, right? It's still a very ambitious timeline. The amount of work we've accomplished today, right? I recognize it's still very ambitious. But that's that's the ambition in, you know, more logically, it's coming to the council, the April meeting, right? That's probably the more logical one is, is the April meeting where we need March, March's meetings too. Okay, that's better. I may miss the March meeting. So I wanted to be sure. Pam? News since house bylaw. We chatted about that coming to be discussed. I mean, that obviously has to get discussed here as well. And that target was second meeting in January. Is that correct? Let me let me take that. So we had notes on a public forum in February. I don't have my meeting schedule in front of me. So given what we got through a two hour two hours at the first January meeting, it's probably logical for the second for nuisance house. Because the first January meeting is hopefully the fee, the fee schedule is one of the planned items. It is the bylaw that we was in the packet today would be one of the other planned items. So the permit bylaw. And then the other planned item, which I have not, I have a request from Pam for having a guest in hopefully at the first January meeting, and I haven't been able to respond to the email, Pam, but yes, so Pam had requested that we bring the assessor's office in to talk about how rental units and housing units, residential properties in general are assessed in terms of whether they whether that assessment part of that for this is could those changes or whatever those assessment methods are do they have an impact on what we write for permitting? And Pam had requested a brief conversation with the assessor's office on that. And so I hope to fit that into the January, the first meeting in January, the 12th, I think that meeting is. And so those three things together, I think will fill the first meeting. Yeah, easily. And so and we have to get back to so the second meeting would then be the second meeting in January would then be the nuisance house bylaw. And the the engagement report. So I hope I have we're having a meeting on January fifth and January 19. No, we changed them with the new schedule, the 12th and the 20th. I need to get I need to file my new. I mentioned that when we passed the new schedule that we flipped the meetings for January that old schedule. So it's the 12th and the 19th. And so the 12. And so the 19th would then be engagement report and nuisance house bylaw. And all and Kelly, you have a question. My question, I just wanted to clarify the public forum that you're discussing for February. What would the subject matter be? Oh, it would be on the residential rental bylaw. Great. So that basically covers our agendas, depending on what else we're doing, things might change a little bit, but we have those five things plus. Shalini had requested an update on implementation of comprehensive housing policy sort of next steps on that where where things are going in the planning department for that. So if we can fit that in in January, I will if not February might be more logical given, especially given the the vacancies that are in the planning department right now, pushing until waiting until we have filled some of those vacancies, if possible, might be more logical because we might get a better idea of what's actually capacity wise doable in the department. Once there are less vacancies. But that's also sort of on my radar is something that that needs scheduled for agendas, future agendas. Any other future agenda requests? Like to clear, I don't have I don't again don't have the the meeting schedule in front of me. But I was looking at the 12th and the 26th of the RC meetings. What was the 19th? There is not one on the 19th. Just the 12 might be going to MMA is that was probably why I didn't like the 19th anymore. And I was like, Oh, that's not a wise time to have a meeting. And so instead of yeah, that makes sense to in a row, one of those I just moved them that you're probably right as to why I was like, I don't like one then. So 12 and 26. Any other agenda items? See none. I don't have anything unanticipated, which means we're adjourning the meeting at 6 21 p.m. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you, Athena. And I know Rob's already left, but thank you, Rob too. Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye. Thanks, Athena. Thank you. It was great to meet you all. Yeah, thank you, Kelly. Bye bye.