 This is Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. Our show right now is a middle way. It's about China, but other things too. And the title of our discussion today is teaching young people globally part two. The future belongs to young people who said that. Obama said that. In fact, I'll quote you. The future belongs to young people with an education and the imagination to create Iraq Obama. And for this discussion, we have Russell Liu, my co-host on the show, the middle way. And we have David Larson, who's with Mitchell. We get this right, Hamlin School of Law in Minneapolis. St. Paul. To us in Hawaii is pretty much the same thing. Sorry, David. Yeah, if you look at the twist, it is, you know, you've got more of a divide. But, okay. And Russell, my co-host, has taught in China, worked in China, practiced in China for over 15 years or so, and now he's here back in Hawaii. And that's a beautiful library he's in right now. And welcome to your show, Russell. Welcome, Jay and Aloha. I'm glad to be here today. You know, just before the show, we had a discussion with someone named Michael Davis, who's also a Hawaii lawyer, who is now with a think tank in Washington and other connections. And he's a specialist in Hong Kong. He taught at the Hong Kong University Law School for years and years. And he was talking to us about, you know, the emergence of this kind of nasty thing. I was teaching Ping right now. And, you know, teaching Ping is even more aggressive now than it was a year or two ago, at least with Hong Kong. And of course, it's complicated. It's complicated in relations between China and the US and between China and certainly and Taiwan. And, you know, the whole One Built One Road initiative, or shall I say, Built and Road initiative. But we should talk about the, you know, the delicate balance, the tension, if you will, between believing optimistically that the students in China who are more sophisticated, perhaps more global every day, you know, will change the way China operates going forward. And likewise, we should certainly discuss whether the students here, and I mean students of all ages, will learn more about global affairs. And we'll, like Obama says, take us to the next generation of better time. It's actually not clear. Russell, why don't you introduce the track of this discussion? Great, Jay. I'd first also like to introduce David Larson, who's a law professor at Hamline College of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, who's joining us. And he's going to, I think he has more expertise teaching American law students. He's also taught in China, in the Chinese law schools. And my background, Jay, is teaching Chinese law students for last 20 years. I've seen several generations now of Chinese law students, young people who are making their way into life. And so those are my observations, Jay. I'll talk about the generations, the current generation, Z, which are the, I call them the zillennials, and the generation Y, the differences. You know, I'm very concerned about that Z thing. You know, why? Because what happens after Z? It's only rhetorical. After Z, we have no more alphabet. What do you go? Double A? What happens? We go back to A. Simply keep it simple. We go back to A. Yeah, go Greek alphabet. There's other alphabets. Well, let's go to you, David. I mean, your teaching, we'll hear from Russell and his teaching, too. But your teaching, you get a handle as more than most people I know about the generation X and Y and millennial and what have you. Are they going to be able to take us to a better world? Well, you know, young people always, I think, kind of intuitively have that optimism. You know, it's, it's, I think we're going to talk about education and students that we have to talk about technology and social media because that plays a role in people's perceptions and ways that it never has in the past. Social media is incredibly powerful. You know, you look at the studies about people looking at their cell phones and millennials look at it every 12 seconds and generation Z looks every second seconds. And so in terms of whether people are connected globally, I think because of technology, they are connected globally in ways they were never able to before. There was one study that said that generation Z believes that national borders are relics of the past because they cruise the world every day with complete freedom. And, and I think with that idea that I've got that kind of mobility and ability to touch people globally that I think maybe I could affect more change. So I think there is that optimism that there's a technology available that I'm speaking now as generation Z that I understand better than you do that I'm going to be able to to employ and utilize more effectively than you can because you don't have the same intuitive understanding you weren't birthed with it like I was. And I'm going to be able to use this technology in ways for productive change that you just can't, you're not going to be capable of. You know, what about the, what about the downside, the flip side of social media? I know it's not, it's not limited to 140 characters anymore, but it's short bites anyway. And people are interested in short bites. Young people are interested in, you know, the headlines and the first paragraph maybe. And social media is loaded with misinformation, disinformation, propaganda from all sources. How can you be educated and thoughtful and constructive and take the world to a better place if you don't know what's going on because you're misled with social media? Yeah, I'm, you know, I think as educators we have a real responsibility to tell people to have a real broad perspective when it comes to information to kind of understand that a lot of social media information is driven by analytics. And the goal is to keep people on the screen. That's kind of, the goal is to have advertisers. And I only can sell the advertisers if I have a lot of users. So my goal isn't so much to educate you accurately, it's to keep you on the screen. And I'm going to do whatever I can to keep you on the screen. And one way I can keep you on the screen is to look at what you've looked at before, and then funnel things to you that are similar to that that kind of reinforce what I know you already like, and keep funneling that kind of information to you. And people get more and more siloed as that happens increasingly, just keep hearing that same voice. And I think as educators, we have to make it clear that that's happening. That's how social media works. And to be aware and attentive of what's happening, that there are other voices out there and other opinions, and that it's really important to make an effort to identify and hear some of those voices. How do you as a law professor cope with the tension between an accurate statement of our world through the law? Because that is the reality and the lack of reality that these kids and students are exposed to. I mean, I'm thinking, for example, the way the Trump administration and people in and around the Trump during the time of the Trump administration, learn how to use social media to disinform, you know, hundreds, hundreds, thousands, millions of people. And they are still misinformed and disinformed today. Very hard to change it once you make your impression on them. How can you, David, how can you and college teachers, even high school teachers, you know, counteract the corrosive effect of the disinformation these kids are exposed to? Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to what I said a minute ago, that you've got to make people aware of how they're being manipulated by social media in terms of these analytics and the idea that things are being channeled to you that are only one perspective. And there's not a lot of fact checking going on. It's more topic focused that if it's on the topic that you're interested in, I'm going to channel it to you and I don't really care if it's true or not. And people need to be aware that that's happening so that they can, and then you've got to encourage them to make an effort to look at other outlets and other media to try and get some kind of balance. And in this world, and I'd still like to believe that there are some more, there are more trustworthy sites as compared to other ones, ones that have been around for a long time that have some responsibility to do investigative work. You know, and granted that they sometimes have political leanings and I guess they frequently do nonetheless, they try to be fact driven for the most part. So, you know, on the conservative side, you've got, you know, Wall Street Journal on the more liberal side of New York Times, you know, read some of those different publications and see what they're saying and what facts they're calling on. Yep, got to do that. So how would you compare, because you're familiar both sides of the equation, and I will ask Russell the same question, how would you compare the experience in this regard, the effect of all these sources of information, the effect of critical thinking as it can be developed with students X and Y and millennials and the like in the United States versus students in China. And I'm reminded of a woman I met on my first trip to China. And I said, are you a student? She says, I was a student. I'm working now. I'm working only to raise the money to go to my next school. And my life will be one school after another as long as I can afford it. And I thought that was really interesting. It didn't matter too much what she studied. She just wanted to be in school. So, in a query, how do you compare the, what do you call it, the life, the motivation, the dynamic of a Chinese student as against an American student? Yeah, so I'll just, Jessica is a kind of preview, is a prelude. I'll just mention that. So at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law, we have a traditional brick and mortar program where we teach face to face. We also have a well developed remote learning program. We're the first to get American Bar Association accreditation for a pilot program now going in our eighth year. So we started that much earlier. And what that allows us to do is get students not only from around the country of all different ages, because they can do it asynchronously, but we do get some international students. So even though I'm in St. Paul, I'm having some contact with international students. And then a few summers ago, three summers ago, I had this wonderful opportunity to come to China from a professor at Tianjin University of Finance and Economics School of Law. And he invited me to come and talk about ODR and I taught at Tianjin University of Finance and Economics. I think it was at Wenzhou University College of Law and Politics, China University of Political Science and Law. So I did have fairly recently some exposure with Chinese students. And my experience, and I don't know how the students were selected to attend my lectures or classes, were that they were very well prepared. They were very well engaged. They asked good questions. I had a very good experience with them. I think right now that students in the United States, they are being hit with very serious challenges that are forcing them to kind of look inward, look outward and reflect on where they're going and what their future is going to be. So I think students in the United States are thinking about being more occlusive, more global. I think that they're concerned about climate change in ways that prior generations weren't. I think that, for example, given that the George Floyd trial is beginning here in the Twin Cities today is one example. Students are very attentive to what's going on and they're concerned about social justice. And events like what happened here in Minneapolis bring that home. The January 6th activity at the Capitol, in the anticipation of today, actually sent out the questions to my students and kind of got some of their opinions. And one thing they responded was that, in terms of where are they politically, is that they were shocked by what happened January 6th and they were frightened by it. And it gave them a real motivation to try and make certain that kind of thing doesn't happen in the future. So I've got to say I've had good experience with both Chinese and students, albeit I've had much more exposure to American students. Sure. One thing that strikes me from what you said is that we've had a kind of examination of who was there on Insurrection Day. And there's various right-wing groups and some law enforcement officers or former law enforcement or military. And it's really, it's a potpourri. However, I don't hear a lot of, that there were a lot of students there, especially law students. I don't hear that there were a lot of college students for that matter. And I think that really tells us something. We're going to know more as these investigations proceed. But it's refreshing to find, at least on the surface, it does not appear there were a lot of students at the Insurrection. So Russell, can you make that same comparison? Can you compare the, what do you want to call it, the critical thinking capability environment for an American student versus a Chinese student? And I might add, by the way, that one factor in China that I became aware of is that social media can be closed down in a moment's notice. And there was something called, I think it's called clubhouse. It was a kind of oral audio type of social media. The government closed it down one fine day because it was getting around their efforts to limit the written social media. Anyway, can you make that comparison for us too? Okay, Jay, thank you very much. As I've mentioned before, my background, it really has been teaching mostly Chinese law students in China and Beijing for the last 15 years. And one of the things that I've noticed that's different, at least with my limited exposure with American students is that the Chinese students are much more global. And I see that although there's a lot of discussion about their media being shut down, they do still find ways to hear about things outside of China. And one of the things that I find that is vastly different is that the, at least the students I teach, and all the students that go to college in China have to have a very high level of English proficiency. The Gao Kao, the exam to get to a good university, it can be make or break if their English scores are pretty bad. Okay, so when they come into our university, which not only teaches law, but also multiple 93 different languages around the world, the students have a second language in command. To get to a very high level of English, they've had to familiarize themselves with the culture, the literature, movies, books from the US. So there is a certain level of understanding. It may not be up to date, but very fairly high level. The second thing I've noticed with the Chinese students is that more and more especially in Generation Z, the parents will take them out every year to take a global trip somewhere. It could be Cairo, Egypt to see the pyramids, which I've never seen. It could be Kenya, Africa to see what Africa is like, because China is doing many projects there. But the reality is that the Chinese have this saying that to get that outside education, international education, we believe that traveling internationally is worth a thousand books. So they do get exposed to outside. And they also have technology now where they can still be in touch with friends through WeChat or other people through WeChat in the US, as long as WeChat still exists. So I see them a very technology driven just as American students. But I think they are much more global than maybe Americans may want to realize. And I say the people versus the government. And so I think there is a very high level of intelligence interest in the US. And I teach courses that are American law courses at the university. I use a Socratic method. And I have them read cases. And they have a litany of legal writing. I teach the common law contracts courses. And the traditional, I even taught a constitutional law classes. And we read cases like Roe v. Wade about the abortion issue. So they do get that exposure. And the government makes sure that in the law schools, they do get these courses. When you teach them American constitutional law, this is really important. Are they invidious? And they say, gee, wow, that's the heart of democracy. I mean, maybe I should be speaking before Trump or before the insurrection. That's the heart of democracy, the Capitol building. These people come, they're representative. They run for election. They have to satisfy their constituents in some way. They meet. They deliberate. They make legislation. And there's not a lot of limits on that. And this balance between the three branches of government, however imperfect, that's the American constitutional system. So when you help them read cases, the Supreme Court, when you help them understand the American branches of government, is it encouraging to them? I mean, do they feel that's a really good system, maybe even better than their system, maybe better than the People's Congress or the Politburo? So a query, can you tell what you're teaching them? Let me give you an example. I think they have a very intellectual, very intellectually curious, and they do respect our system. And if they went to Washington D.C., the first thing we want to do is they want to get a picture at the Supreme Court. They want to go into see the Declaration of Independence, maybe more so curious in most Americans. But what I find is that there's a really a big divide, a conceptual misunderstanding between, I think, American students and the Chinese students. Well, let me give you an example. I have friends who have children that have grown up in Hong Kong. And then I see my students. The difference is that somebody in China, a student, they're concerned about something very different. They're concerned about economic freedom. They're concerned about making living because they don't have a social net, a social belt like we do, you know, like the social security system that really is supposed to be a play state. They are starting to have one, but they don't have that. They are subject and required by their culture to take care of their parents when they get old, that there are no butts in this. In America, parents go to old folks' homes in China. They don't do that. They take them at their home. So they have an economic burden. So their focus in school is getting a better education and having economic freedom. Somebody from Hong Kong, students, they are grew up in a different system where it is not economic freedom. It's personal freedom. This is what we equate in America, personal freedom, liberty, all that stuff, life and liberty. But I think there are two different things we're looking at. I think it ends up in the same place eventually. So I'm not troubled too much if, you know, they don't agree or, you know, have a position as which systems is better. I think the most important thing is that they're exposed and able to see different things. Yes, you know, but the question really, the underlying question this whole discussion is whether they will have the opportunity to reform things, to improve things, you know, to make a better world. In a world of, you know, hard government, call it hard government in China, repressive government, you can find a lot of terms around, you know, hard government. It's hard to change the government. And, you know, look at, look at Hong Kong, it's going the wrong way. Those students would like to have greater freedom. They want to, you know, participate in government, make government better and so forth. But they're going to go to jail for their efforts. And so the question I put to you is, in China, how likely is it that a generation of enlightened kids will be able to reform the country and make it not necessarily the American model, but a more democratic society? Well, Jay, if you ask me the question, I think it's really up to them. Okay. This is their future. They will make that decision when and if they're ready. But I think, I think that the thing, if I were to look at it in a very analytical point of view, you know, our country has taken 200 years to get where it is. We didn't have the civil rights movement until the 1960s. And we had hundreds of years of no really, I think a lot of bad things going on. We had the George Floyd incident just last year, you know, awakening and everybody's seeing something different. It's been taking many years. So in one sense is that if we're looking at China, if we look after 49 or when it opened up in the late 70s, we're talking about a 50 years. And I think it's very different to equate 50 years with even us over 200 years. So there's a there's a process that takes time. And, you know, hopefully it will come out the way that they want to come out with. And I think that that's a big difference if we were to look at it. And we can't just impose our values and say, you have to be like us. Now it's 50 years, and you have to follow exactly the way we are. That doesn't work. A very different culture, different problems. You know, their problem is 1.4 billion people. How do you feed them? Imagine if they had a problem where they can't feed them. The rest of the world would have to pitch it. Okay, then it would be a very different situations. They've been able in the last 50 years to lift 800 million people out of poverty. They're heading in a direction, you know. Well, they're very successful. They're one of the most successful economies of the world. And I think they could walk in true gum at the same time. You know, yes, they're a younger democracy, if you want to call them a democracy. I have trouble calling it a democracy. But if you want to, you know, talk about their age in the current model of government, yes, it's 1949. It's not that long ago. But I think they could handle all of this. And really the question, I'm going to put this question to David Larson about the American students, is whether they understand and are able to reform things that need to be reformed. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about, David, is the constitutional law aspect, as Russell has mentioned, you know, query whether we have a generation coming up that understands what it is to live in a democracy, that understands what the constitution is, you know, the social legal constitutional framework, which we've all enjoyed since the 18th century. Are we there? I mean, these kids understand when they leave your school, then they understand, well, when they arrived at your school after college, do they understand? That's a lot of, that's a lot of questions. So I'll put out a couple of comments. One, in relation to what you were talking about with Russell earlier about the probability or possibility of doing any kind of real change. And this whole is true for China and the United States. Bloomberg Media had a study recently where reported that members of generation Z make up one third now of the world's population. One third of the world's population. Well, you know, there's strength in numbers. And to the degree that generation Z has some different ideas, they have certainly have a critical mass to begin to make that happen in different places. The people under the people of the students in the United States understand the Constitution. I think, I think it's being brought home now in the last couple of years more intensely than it has been for a long time. You know, things like the things that people are saying about, I don't have to wear masks. I have a constitutional right when I go into a store. Even though for decades, stores have said no shoes, no shirt, no service. That didn't seem to bother anybody. But if you want to add a mask to that list, well, now suddenly I've got constitutional, I don't have a constitutional right not to wear shoes or shirts, but I got a constitutional right not to wear a mask. I mean, I think those kinds of discrepancies are being brought home very intensely now. And people are asking, well, what are the constitutional rights? Is there really constitutional right not to wear a mask on someone's private property? And they're learning that there isn't. So I think current events are bringing life to the Constitution in ways maybe it hasn't in the very recent past other than civil rights movements, which of course, put a real focus on, you know, starting, you know, when the march is in the 50s and 60s. But yeah, I think that attention is being paid to the Constitution. Law school applications are going up again, which means that people are thinking about what are the laws and the laws need to be reformed. And if I want to reform laws, I need to have some skills. And I'm not going to have those skills unless I go to law school and get a degree and understand how to read a law and how to read a case. So I think right now there is more attention being paid to the Constitution, to laws, and to legal reform than there has been for a while. I think going to law school so they can reform, you know, I mean, you know, to me, my experience is that in different times and generations, kids go to law school for different reasons. There have been times in, you know, in the time that I have interviewed lawyers for firms, I found one interesting period where they wanted to change the world. That would be back in the 60s and 70s. That was the time when they wanted to make as much money as possible and be damned the rest of it. There was the time when they wanted to go into politics and have control. It's a generational thing in my observation. So can you say now these days why the bulk of them are going to law school? Well, I think, you know, for example, in Minneapolis, you know, on our Lake Street, tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars of destroyed property in our neighborhoods, you know, there are events that are unavoidable that are happening right now. You just, you can't pretend that things aren't happening and that you can't ignore the questions about why are these things happening and if you don't like what's happening, is there anything I can do to stop it? And one answer that people are gravitating towards is that maybe I can stop it if I can get involved in the process in a productive, quote, official way and change the direction of the legislation. And I think there's a feeling that maybe I can. Will we like what happens here? I mean, there are a number of states where the Republican community is moving to suppressed voting. In my view, that's disgraceful. But that's what's happening. And they're passing those bills. Will we like it? What happens when this generation steps up and takes control? They may like it. By definition, they would like it. That's their generation, their time. But how about us guys, the older guys? Will we like it? What they do? Well, you know, there's a lot of talk about white privilege and benefiting. And the fact is that that's happened. So it may be that the old way of reaping benefit at the expense of others will be mitigated to some degree. And if all you're worried about is kind of how's it going to hurt my pocket, you might think that this is a bad thing. But I don't think that's the way we should think about it. It's not that, what do I think I'm going to lose? We should be thinking about what do I think I could gain by being more inclusive and by giving opportunities to people that have not had opportunities before. And how's that going to reflect the stability of my community? And the way I feel when I walk down streets in certain neighborhoods, I mean, if people feel more secure and more stable, maybe my world will be better, even though in the short term, I thought, oh, it's going to be my disadvantage. Maybe really it's going to be to your advantage. So Russell, we're almost out of time. But I certainly like to hear your thoughts on these issues and kind of a summary of where this generation is, how they feel about Western liberal democracy, how they feel about, you know, government in Asia, specifically in China, how they feel about the relative position of the U.S. as against Europe as well. So can you summarize and point me where we're going on this? That's a big question there, Jay. I think from David what I've observed, I think the word is inclusive. And I've observed that many Americans who have come to probably point of time, it's sort of like our cultural revolution, asking who are we, what are we, what is the constitution about, which I think it's all good, all necessary, and becoming more aware that there is a world outside of our local world and U.S. And I think for the Chinese students, again, the key really is we have to, again, the word is engaged and involved in the world, because if we want any reform, and as David mentioned, it's a third of the world's population will be the generation Z. It's important to be there inclusive. And again, through education, dialogue, exchange, I think that makes it better for both students of both sides of the world. Again, they may not be in a position, students at this point to make a change, but it's an investment in the future, and then hopefully that they will make the good changes in a few years as they become adults more responsible. So in summary, it's all about there's a lot of similarities between the generations Z students in America and China, but the focus may be a little bit different at this point in time. In America, we're asking who we are, and about being inclusive in China, they need to get more global. I mean, if we we need to keep that exchange between the world so that they can someday will take some of what they learn and the ideals and incorporate it into their world. Yeah, down with borders, down with nationalism, students of the world unite. You've heard that phrase, right? David, can you tell us what you would like to leave with us and our viewers today about the subject? Take a minute and give us nothing short of profound. Very high bar. So I don't think I'll shoot quite that high. You know, I think that what I'd like to leave with, you know, when I talk to my students is that you know, don't try, try, given some of the things that are happening, the January 6th capital event. And, you know, what's happened here in the Twin Cities is that try not to get demoralized. You know, try not to think that all is lost. You know, I tend to be more glass half full than half empty. So, you know, I feel that that if things have turned in a bad direction, that there are things we can do to turn them in a more positive direction, and to not give up hope and to the degree that you have high aspirations, I encourage you to embrace those and try to achieve them. And I'm sure you do tell them that law, law education enables them to participate more than most and they have a duty as professionals and lawyers to do exactly that. They have a duty to improve our society. And Russell, what are your closing thoughts? What would you leave with our audience? I think that hopefully that these generations, these students will, as I agree with David, that they have to have hope, think the glass is half full with much more opportunities. And I think it's these all these things that have happened here in the U.S., the January 6th. It's really something as a positive thing so it makes us to think and makes us to think ahead. And I think the students, the generous you see, they're really an investment for for us so that they will make a better world. And I think keeping that optimism and especially my thing is I always like to see more American students go out and get global, learn another language. It allows you to see things differently. You can become more positive and enlightened. So that's that's my closing word that I just want to share with you Jay and the audience. Well, yes, and yes, we should ask them to give us an age of enlightenment. That would be nice. We can all agree on that. All the generations will agree. Russell, you, David Larson, thank you so much for joining us today for the Middle Way. We look forward to the next discussion on this show. Aloha. Aloha.