 There we go, here's Jackie, there she is, yay, it actually worked, as she made it. I had my microphone off or something, so I had to do some kind of regular- Technology isn't good. We were better off. And I'm not good with it, so. Oh, you did just fine. So for those of you who hung around and like stuck in there with us for the last few minutes, I appreciate that. So today we're going to talk for a little while, and Jackie, thank you very much for being willing to do this. Like, hugely, hugely helpful. So people always want to know, they ask all the time, like, has anybody ever really done this? Is it really possible to, you know, get better and get past all this? And I could talk myself, you know, until I'm blue in the face that, yes, I actually did it. But it would be nice to hear from other people. And Jackie is one of those people. I am. And like, I'm super proud of her for being willing to come forward and do this. And just a quick disclaimer before we get into it. I didn't fix Jackie. I have nothing to do with it. Jackie fixed herself like, like everybody will fix themselves. I didn't do anything. Dr. Clare Weeks didn't do anything. I mean, these are all tools that help. But in the end, Jackie, I think she would probably agree. She in the end fixed herself. So Jackie, let's tell me a little bit like how long did you struggle with the sort of thing? Was it just panic agoraphobia? I mean, how limited was your life? How bad was it? It was, it started out, I would want to say about 10 years ago. And it started with like panicking like at the grocery store, you know, being in line at the grocery store. And then it just escalated to where I basically couldn't go anywhere or do anything except go to work. Everything for me was related to being anytime I felt trapped. And at first I only felt trapped, I guess, in a line at the grocery store. And then slowly it just expanded out and became, everything felt like a trap to me. Being without my car, being in traffic, like all the things you hear, getting my hair cut was unbearable sitting in that chair. It all had to do with like embarrassing myself, like if I had to leave. So if I was getting my hair cut and I would panic and feel like I had to leave, I would embarrass myself in front of other people. It sounds kind of vain. No, it actually doesn't sound vain. That was where it seemed to root itself and then it just expanded to like everything. And I mean, I even remember like I would watch TV and every single program I saw, I would say, I can't do that. Like it's so consumed my life. Like I could never do that. Like even the simplest things I would say, I'd be like, oh my God, I could never do that. And just grew and grew and grew. And how long do you think that went for? I mean, can you have a time? Was it months? Was it years? Years. Ten years I probably really had a lot of trouble. On and off. There was probably about two years in there somewhere where it kind of went away. Either that or I kind of learned how to cope with it with all the BS stuff you do. Like I stayed away, avoided. I avoided the grocery store or I would avoid a line, a long line. Like I would just put my cart. I'd go around and around, circle around the store until like the lane was empty. And then I'd quick get in there because for me or something it was about waiting in line. If someone got in behind me, I would freak out and be like, oh my God, somebody's behind me. I would have to get all my stuff off the belt and like interrupt them to get out of there. And my panic would just, you know, all the symptoms that you talk about just go crazy. I'm going to pass out like right here in line. I'm going to have a heart attack. But of course you never did. No, I never did. And that's the thing. Like once you start putting it together, that all the things you're thinking are kind of BS. Especially like once you recognize it as anxiety, that's a big, that was a big key for me. Like once I started to pull all the symptoms together and I'd be like, oh, that thought is definitely a thought I only have in my anxiety moment. Then I was able to like say, oh, okay, this is anxiety. And that was a huge like, then I knew I could relax. You know what I mean? It sounds crazy, but. Well, to a certain extent, all of this stuff sounds crazy to people who aren't in it. It sounds completely insane at the time. Yeah. So I get that. It's so hard to explain. Like when you do well, like I understand you, you try to explain it in 20 different ways. Hoping that a little click, which it did with me. One of your videos really clicked with me. I'm even, I was even trying to remember how I discovered you. And I'm fairly sure it was like two years ago. I bought one of those books, like eight weeks, panic, anxiety, workbook or something, eight weeks to, you know, whatever. Freedom or something. Yeah, whatever. But it did get to the exposure chapter. And the way he kind of explained exposure was I didn't understand it. Like, because I kept doing it and I was just freaking out more and more. It was getting worse and worse. Right. And I thought I'm doing something wrong. So I Googled exposure. And at that time, you were the only thing that came up your video about. Yeah, your video about exposure. So as soon as I found your website and I watched that video where you told me it's not supposed to feel good. You know, that's all I needed to hear. You're supposed to be scared. You're supposed to freak out. Like that's part of exposure. And I didn't hear that. Yeah. And that's one of the things I think that keeps people the difference between, you know, maybe you and I and someone who's watching right now who's in the thick of it and can't go to the grocery store has that very shrinking life. Everything's getting smaller. They're avoiding and missing out on things. Yeah. They want to get better. There's really, there's no difference between us and if that's you, if I'm describing you, there's no difference between Jackie and you. No. We're the same as you. We're made of the same. We're made of the same stuff. Yeah, definitely. You can get better for sure. I believe that we all have the same capabilities too. I know Jackie and I are no stronger than anyone else that's watching right now or any different or wired any differently. And I think the biggest sticking point is exactly what you just said, like what you have to understand. This is not supposed to feel good. Right. If you're spending your time trying to, like that was a turning point for me too. And I realized like, Hey, this is just going to suck like epically. Right. But it has to, and you know, there's, there's only that's, that's just the way it has to be. So you have to accept that you're going to really feel bad while you're doing this. Right. But that didn't last that long. No. Right. Once you let yourself feel bad and just let that happen. How long before you started to feel like, Oh, this is getting easier. It took, I was doing it wrong for probably six months. I would have to say, cause I was still clenching, you know, I was still fighting it. And when you start to like relax, even if you can just relax one muscle, anything, it's almost kind of BS at first until you get it. Like you get, it's like an internal surrender. And that tells your mind, Oh, I don't have to run the anxiety program. I can, I can relax here. You know, but it's just a matter of what your program is or what, what sets your program. Like another video of yours that was brilliant to me was the one where you said you videoed yourself during panic. So you could see all the crazy crap you do. Like I used to like play with my hair. I didn't realize I was doing it. So, but that would signal my thinking. She's playing with her hair. It's time to freak out. You know what I mean? So turn on, turn on the freak out, you know, and then it would escalate. And I think that point is really good. Like that you don't have to run the anxiety program. And everybody has a different anxiety program, right? But it's all rooted in the same thing. So yeah, Jackie would play with her hair. I used to like tug at my ear and like fraud and poke at my chest all the time. But whatever yours is, snapping a rubber band or turning up the music or all those things that you engage in that you think you must do because you feel so bad and you're trying to escape. You run that anxiety program. And even though they might be all different for everybody watching, they're rooted in the same thing that says if I do this thing, I will be safe from this horrible fear. I will make it go away and I will be safe and I will get to safety and I will be comfortable again. And that is the problem. So you stop running the anxiety program and just be uncomfortable and be terrified for five or six minutes without trying to stop that, right? I mean, did you find like when that light bulb goes on, suddenly that start, it's crazy hard. Like, wasn't it super hard at first? Yeah, it is horrible. I even remember writing you a few times like, true, I am terrified. And listen, when you start working on this, it gets worse. It get it for me, it got worse. Like when I started working on it, it got to be like all the time because it was almost like, I don't want to say I had it on the run, but it was like doubling down. It's not the enemy. Your thinking is actually your friend. You've taught it to crank your fear up. So you have to teach it. I don't need you right now. You know, like, in other words, we're all kind of, nobody really is sick with anxiety. You just need to realize that it's happening. It's not happening to you. You know what I mean? Right. It's not an external thing. Is that something that comes at us from outside? It's not a disease or something that needs to be cured medically or fixed. Right. It's just things, just bad, I call them bad cognitive habits. Right. Learn some bad brain habits. Right. Bad brain habits. And you could unlearn a habit. So I think, so what I want to focus on a little bit is that that first, I don't know if you remember, like the very first time you truly did that and said, okay, here it comes. Like, come and get me. And I made a video, I think, last week about that willing, where you make that big decision in your life that says no more. Right. Like, if you're going to come and get me and kill me, then go ahead and do it. Right. Then that first time you do that, I always try and tell people is the hardest time. Yeah. It is the hardest time. Yeah. Right. But then even the second time, if you think back on it, was still super difficult. Right. But at least tiny bit easier. Right. Right. Because it is everything. Right. Experience is everything. Once you see it, you believe in it. You're like, oh, it's not BS. That was it. Right. And like when... Look, I did it. Right. When it happened to me, I think I was in like a bookstore because I started to exposure and I would sit in this bookstore and just try to sit through it. Like, I literally couldn't even sit in a bookstore. It's just so amazing to me now. The difference. Yeah. And I sat there and I remember like, you know, it was cranking up and going up to like whatever a higher level. And I just let go. That's the best way I can describe it. I just kind of let go of any kind of resistance or something. Because in the background, I think you're clenching in so many ways. Right. And that's a whole odyssey discovering how you're fighting it. That's an individual, personalized kind of thing to learn your own way to fight it. You know what I mean? Right. What are you doing? I finally did it and I had like a moment where it just came down and it, you know, it worked. I don't know. And then afterwards, I looked back and was like, that was it. That was it. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And then it just, it was passed after that, like the recovery, I want to say. But it was a long time for me to get there. Not long. I mean, you know, a couple of months. Right. A couple of months. But that after 10 years, a couple of months is a very short amount of time. Yes. True story. Yes. And I think what winds up happening is, you know, if I could describe it and, you know, jump in any time, but that first time you did that in the bookstore for you, it was in the bookstore. If you could look back, you know, and you let it come and you didn't fight it. You didn't run the anxiety program. Right. That surrender is a good work. Like just, that's it, man. Come and get me. And that moment, there's a moment for me when you suddenly start to feel it subside, you can feel that way. Yeah. Oh, wait a minute. Like suddenly that like, wait, I actually feel a little better right now. Yeah. And that is that, that is a magic moment. I think that many people describe like when you first realize like, Oh, I feel it. Yeah. I did it. I did it. And then like that's experience and what the mechanism is, you know, to be technical because some people care and they want it. They need to know this. You didn't just cure disease. What you did is you learned through experience because it is the most powerful way that human beings learn actually doing something. Yeah. Right. You can't learn French just by reading French or listening to it. You have to speak it. You have to do it to learn it. Right. Right. So you learned at that moment in the bookstore through experience. Like you actually formed a new pathway. Yeah. Neurally that says, Oh, this works like this. Yeah. I think when you say, I want to address that part where you say, you feel like you got worse when you first started doing it, which is probably true. And you have to expect that to a certain extent. And I get people who ask me that like, I mean, going out and doing my driving. Driving is a key thing for some people. Right. I've been getting out every day, but it's making me feel worse. Yes. And that is because you, you have broken your shell. Right. So we build this figuratively speaking a shell that we live in. We engineer a life that sometimes is so complicated. Like in our avoidance, but I'm going to do, I'm going to set everything up so that I don't have to face it. It's all very precariously. Right. And then as soon as you dismantle that and you start engaging again with life and doing the things that you have not been doing, of course it's going to get worse. Yeah. You are no longer like in that engineer life that avoids feeling badly. You're welcoming feeling badly. And so you will. Exactly. And it's not, it's not a mystery. Expect to feel badly, which you've said to me. In the beginning. Yeah. That is so important to remember too. And yeah, yeah. I think it cranks up too. Cause you're dropping all your safety behaviors. You're going to do it. You're doing things that you avoided. Like you said. Right. I mean, I think a lot of times we're trying to control all external factors because our internal is out of control. When really folks, you can control your internal and just the external doesn't matter. Once you do that, you're, you're good. It's not the external that's causing the problem. Right. Some, somebody in the group not too long ago, and by the way, if you're watching this and you're not in the discussion group, I'll, I don't, somehow I'll put a link somewhere. You should, you got to get in that group. But anyway, somebody, it might have been Ingrid who, who posted not too long ago that the most valuable thing she ever heard was that it was her that was keeping her this way. Yeah. Like it's not anything else. It's not anxiety that's keeping you this way. Right. We, we consciously make the choice to react to it that way. I don't want to be afraid. So I'm going to make it go away. And I think the other thing that I want to talk about a little bit is when you, was there a time when you realized like, um, that success isn't measured by feeling good. It's really measured by how you handle feeling bad. Exactly. Right. And I think like, did you have to go down that right then setbacks and because that leads to this thing, this topic of setbacks that we talk about so often. I'm in a setback right now. Yeah. And I think people define that as I was doing so great. And then when you dig a little bit there, what they mean by I was doing so great is I haven't had a panic attack. Right. That's what it is. And that's okay. That's great. Cause nobody wants to have one naturally. And then they have a high anxiety day and they feel like, ah, say I can't do it. I'm having a setback. It's all coming back. Right. And like what, what point did you have to learn like, oh no, no, I actually need to experience panic to not experience panic. Oh, right. It really wasn't until the whole bookstore moment where I stopped even worrying or caring about setbacks. I mean, I just the other day had panic build on me. I just get my nails done. Um, anyway. I'm a real nail expert. I, well, that's another, that's another thing I could not have done a year ago. I know it sounds crazy, but I couldn't have. And I started to get my panic started to come in just out of the blue. And I, you know, I was not expecting it. I was completely relaxed. I'd been relaxed all beforehand and, and I just immediately flipped the switch. Now there's like a switch, like an internal, like I said, like you said, there's an, you feel something turnover inside. Like, oh this, you know, that's my anxiety. I know it's okay. Like, you know, I know I'm okay. Ultimately. And it's true because these are skills that I think. And, you know, so that you learn. Yeah. That you learn. That's exactly right. These are skills that you learn. So when Jackie starts to feel panic build, right? While you're getting your nails done or while I'm on a bike ride, if you saw my video from, you know, whatever last week, right? And I start to panic while I'm on my bike. I mean for me, and it sounds like for you too. Like, well, all right. I know you hit that moment. We have to make your decision. What am I going to do? And now the decision is automatic to do the, the right thing in the air. Right. Right. It's just like anything else. The more it's like, if you learn how to cook an omelette, if you do it a hundred times, you can make an omelette really easily. Right. And you know there's somebody hands you eggs. You know what to do with them. Well, same thing. Yeah. Same thing. People think the anxiety goes away. It doesn't. You still have anxiety. You just relate to it differently. Right. You're unconcerned by it. You're not. Yeah. You don't get all wrapped up in it anymore. Right. Right. And I find that, I think that's always important to say to like, it's not hard forever. Because I think people hear us say things like, expect to feel badly. No, right. Not forever. Right. So the curve, you know, you're going to feel like crap, but then you're going to feel better. Yes. You know, it goes, it gets worse, but then it does really get better. You don't have to learn to be like, courageous superhero warrior for the rest of your life. Yeah. Just for a short amount of time. Even if you do have anxiety and I, I experienced it in my life on a regular basis too. I'm not immune to it. Right. And I think being alive, there's going to be times when almost any human being experiences things like fear. Sure. Just that I do find that I pay it no mind. It doesn't matter if I, if I'm really anxious on a day, and I have days where I feel anxious all day, but I just don't care. But there are also very few of those as time goes on. Right. I find that, right. Have you found the same thing that my response, where it used to be like everything would turn into anxiety. Now very few things do. If I feel anxious, it's something biggest going on. I don't even know where my books are. And I mean, they used to, I, Right. Be with you all the time, right? I was on that podcast forum, our 101 forum, 24 seven. I was on your web. I used to go on your website and like click refresh every day. That's a new video. Like it was my life. I would read. I would always, it consumed me all the time. I never think about, I don't think about it anymore unless, you know, something pops up. I mean, it really, there's life outside of it. And there is and everybody can get there. So I think everybody absolutely can. If I want to say anything, it's that you can do it. If I did it, I'm not special at all. You can do this 100%, 100%. Well, I think that's pretty awesome. So do you have any people always ask, actually I'll be flat out honest with everybody that's watching and watching down the future. I don't really like that question. Like what are your tips on how to do this? Right. There are so many. There are so many. Everybody comes with their own way, but there's really only one tip. Just in a way, there's a very small set to me. They all come down to the same thing. Like, do the exact opposite. So if you are, if you're in a situation where you've been dealing with the stuff for weeks or months or years and it feels like there's no way out. Well, obviously what you have been doing, is it working? Is it working? So it's not working, right? All that stay at home, don't go to school, don't get a job, don't go to the supermarket, send your husband to do things or your girlfriend or your wife or whatever it is you do. Take your meds, whatever it is. Right. Not working or you wouldn't be watching this video or participating in the forum on Facebook or whatever it is. So like in a way, the best advice is you got to do the opposite of what you've been doing because it's obviously not helping you. Yep. You're trying to just, what you're doing is trying to feel better and that's the wrong goal. Yeah. It's the wrong goal. And there is some pre, I feel like there's some pre-work, like you've got to feel like you're, you have to have like a growth mindset to kind of go into it. You've got to believe that you can change because I think I just thought anxiety was happening to me. I couldn't do anything about it. I think that held me up, I think for a long time. Like I thought my thinking, in other words, which is like my anxiety, I thought I was me and it were mutually exclusive. We couldn't be kind of separate. You know, like I had no control over my thinking and you absolutely do. You absolutely do. And you need to be there and believe that to then go and do the opposite in other words. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And so I like that, I mean a lot of people relate to that. You have to have the growth mindset. It's that's a big phrase in like the self-help world. Yeah, that's probably where I got it. You got to have that growth mindset. And I think, so that goes back to the video I made last week also where you have to make that decision. That I'm going to do this. I'm doing this. I'm just, I don't care anymore. I would rather die than live this way. Absolutely. If you do not buy in at that point and say, yep, I'm just doing this. And here's how you know, and I don't know if this resonates with you to me, when there's no more, yeah, but like the question that we get all the time, you know, I get, so yeah, Drew, I get it acceptance, but when there's no more, but like yes, but yes, but there's no more, but there's no more, but I can't, right. But yes, but how do you? No, no, no, no, you'd know more like when there's no more. Okay, I get it. But how do you? Yeah, there's no more. How do you just do it? And I think it's also important to understand that the way Jackie came from where she was, where she's now, right? I think, you know, you probably agree with this would be, yes, so you were on the website all the time, which is very sweet. I'm happy to hear that it helped really. Oh my God. No, that makes me feel good. That's why I do it, right? So that's great. And you had your books and your workbooks and all those things and you were just buried it all the time. And I think a lot of people that are watching right now are in that, you know, every day I get a lot of private messages like, please, when is the next video coming? And I'm trying to do that as quickly as I can, but more than anything else, like you didn't just read and listen and watch me and listen to for a week or whatever. You actually did it. Yeah. And that took time too. Like I almost felt like reading the book was going to be the solution before I realized I had to, it really got, you got to do it. And that's so scary. That's because remember, the problem is up here kind of. So fixing it with up here doesn't work. You got to fix it. Like Drew said, that's why exposure works so well. There's emotion and there's actual doing, which is a way better learner like you said, than reading and all that. Right. It absolutely is. You can't read about or watch a video about how to get better. Right. Right. It's like reading to do stuff. Right. Right. That's so good. That's so good. You can't clean your teeth by reading about how to brush your teeth. You actually have to brush your teeth. But it's worth it folks. It's rough, but it is so worth it to be free. You know, to be free. Please keep trying, keep going, keep looking for your stuff and what's blocking you. You know, like some of the thoughts that are stopping you like, oh I can't, but I can't. Like Drew said, you know, you'll find that, you know, you say a lot of that stuff and even when you're doing exposure, look at a lot of the things that you're thinking because as soon as you disprove a few of those, because it is like whack-a-mole, like as soon as you disprove a few of those though, you'll start to be like, hey wait a minute, maybe that's not true. You know, like then you start to, you know, I think you gotta go through all that, like an onion, like peeling an onion, you know. And there's a mindset that comes with that, like, because people will start to play, like really address their symptoms. Yeah. So like, okay, the first thing I'm gonna do is figure out how to deal with my racing heart. Right. Then we're gonna figure out, and then you get this all the time, like yeah, I'm doing all my stuff, but that dizziness, that's the one I hear all the time. Yes, right. But I can't, that dizziness. I can't do that. Right. It's the same way, the racing heart, the heavy breathing, the sweating, so once you've actually got over, you're not really getting over your racing heart, you're getting over anything. Caring about it, or yeah. You're getting over caring about it. You're learning to not care. Right. And so people ask me all the time, well, that's great, but do you have any tips for dealing with and then they insert a specific symptom? Right. Do you deal with it? My answer's always the same. You deal with it the same way you deal with every other symptom that you've already defeated. Right. Just keep going, and more might come up, but you'll find that when you truly adopt that mindset of like, I don't really give a rat's ass then suddenly things stop coming at you. Suddenly, absolutely. No more new stuff happens. Yeah, no more new stuff happens. Yeah, because you're not giving it respect. It's like a respect thing. Yeah, to a certain extent. You're not giving it any respect. So, well, this is awesome. I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you. I'm sure it's helpful to everybody that has been watching. And thank you, Drew, from everybody. Your website. You did it. Absolutely helped. It just gave me the way I needed to hear it. You explained it the way I needed to hear it. And it wasn't a walk written by, you know, the thing is too, you suffered so you know, because I think there's a lot of stuff out there where people don't know what they're talking about. So you suffered and got through it. And I think that speaks in all your stuff. And it helped me so much. Oh, God. I know you don't. I know you don't like this part, but I'm saying this for everyone else in the forum. We love you. We love you. Well, well, thank you. But I think the fact that you are hanging around because in most places that you find, and I mean, hanging around in a good way, you know, by definition, I think the other thing that I'll point out before we kind of wrap it up. Let's check it. Checking your role in here. But is that when you go online to places, like whether it's our forum on Facebook or the millions of other places where they discuss anxiety, I like to think that we have a different kind of place because we're not just talking about symptoms. We're not all telling each other it's okay. We're not just all like, you know, giving each other shoulders to cry on and a safe place to be limited, which is, which is many of them are about. We're trying to encourage and motivate and cheer people on and inspire and that sort of stuff. And I think it's working, but by definition in places like ours, when people get better, they move on. They have no reason to be there. Right. So the fact that you will still pop in now and then and answer a question and take, you know, 30 minutes out of your Saturday. Yeah. Really, really awesome. Cause if I can help one person, I would be so glad. I mean, that's, that's like my goal. I just want to help one person. And I'm sure you have today. Excellent. All right, Jackie, I will let you wrap up. I don't keep you too long. Thank you then. Yep. And for those of you who are, well, whatever, I'll put a link to the form, get in it. I'll post this post this on YouTube. And I'm just one quick administrative thing. I always ask in my videos for comments and questions. I love all of them and I want you to ask them. It's, it's become really hard to keep up with all the private messages though. So you're always welcome to try and private message me and I'll do the best I can. But if you have a question, put it in the discussion group or in the comments of the video or something. So, so that other people can help out also in the comments below where it is. And you, I'm not saying don't message me. It's just getting difficult to keep up with. This isn't like a job. So I have other things happening. Right. So try and ask your questions in the discussion group. If you can join it or in the comments of the video here and I'm sure I and other people like Jackie, you're nice enough to get involved. And can I tell you something also, even it doesn't even have to be me or somebody like Jackie or Holly who's probably asleep right now who knows, but it doesn't even be even people who I know are still struggling have been really awesome about helping each other. So yeah, if you're willing to discuss it openly, let's do it. All right. Thanks guys. Thanks Jackie. All right. See you all later. Bye. Bye.