 So I'm going to call this May 22nd meeting of the Mobile Air Planning Commission to order. We have four planning commissioners present make that five. That's one's joining. And we're going to jump into the agenda, which the next item would be approval of the agenda. So we can get a motion to approve the agenda. I'll take it. So moved by John Adams. We have a second. Anybody will do I just haven't seen it. I'm looking I second. Alright, so we have a second from Gabe. I actually should note that there are some slight changes actually from the agenda. And so to the to the extent. Um, the extent to this matters, it's just a procedural thing, but we may as well say, John, if you would amend your. Motion to approve, but with the change to number 5 on the agenda to change that from economic development and energy. To housing natural resources, transportation and utilities and facilities. I will amend it as the fair has just said. Alright, thanks, John. So we have a really amended motion just to clarify that we'll be covering different chapters. Then then what's on the agenda and that's just because of. What ended like, you know, my growth, the agenda ahead of time and then what ended up being actually ready for us to look at where different things. So that's why that's why that change being made. Okay, so we have a motion from John to amend. Or or he just amended the motion gave seconded. Do we have alright, so who's in favor of approving the amended agenda? Say, I. Hi, hi. Do we have any opposed. Abstentions, okay, mend agenda approved. And again, we'll be covering housing. Natural resources, transportation, utility and facilities. Number 5, which is going to be the storyboard outlines for the language that's going to be going on to the city plan website. Okay, so with the agenda approved, we'll go to the comments from the chair. I don't believe I have anything that we're not going to get into later. Does anyone else have anything to bring to our attention? Okay, so moving on from that general business to be any members of the public. We're here to talk about something that's not on the agenda. We have no members of the public. So, we're going to pass on unless unless there's anyone there in person. I think we had Mike, Mike Miller, the planning commissioner, or the. Mike Miller, the planning director is out for tonight. He's not going to be joining us. So some other staff had to set things up in city hall. But they're not connected right now. So I'm going to take that to mean that there's no one else at city hall. Who, who's from the public who wants to talk to us? Okay, so we're on our own tonight without Mike, which is fine for what we got to cover. The 1st thing is. A review and approval of the storyboard outlines will start with the housing chapter language. I went in and made some changes today or or just noted some things for us to talk about to change. I did make some changes that were just like pre thing type changes. I saw that Maria had also left some comments at least in the transportation chapter. Maybe there were some other comments that showed up. I didn't notice yet. But let's just hop in. I'm just going to share screen. And we're going to go through it. Okay, everybody see the chapter. Okay. So this came from a secret. It's based off of the chapter language we provided, but I have noticed. Some additions and changes and things. I'm not sure that I've caught. All there is to catch some hoping that we can. Review and work through this. I'm I'm thinking that we could go in and we could talk about the things that I flagged, but if people wanted us to take some time. For everybody to individually go through and look for stuff to flag. I would be open to that. So I'm just open to suggestions about how we want to proceed. He thoughts. We should want to start with the flag stuff. Okay. We'll start with the flag stuff. You can hear me right. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me. All right. Okay. So, first thing I've liked here is the, the first sentences. Having a safe place to call homes of basic necessity. I, it feels like for a housing chapter we could start off. More like about planning or more about. We're not a safety oriented chapter. So it's just like, you know, awkward to me a little, I mean, this, this was in here in the original and. We didn't change it before, but now that we're seeing that it's, you know, set up to possibly be on the website. I'm wondering if we could. I mean, the general idea seems fine. Like, it's important to have a home. I don't know. Does anybody have a suggested change or, or ideas? Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me that we would just say something like the city of Montpelier needs to plan for. Housing. Growth and, you know, something like, or to house its employees and I don't know something. I can't come up with it right now, but I agree. Maria, did you have a suggestion? Oh, I was just going to say. I mean, just changing it like housing is a basic necessity. You know, take out some of the editorial. But I think Ariane, like Ariane's idea better. Okay, Ariane. What do you think? What were some of the other the ideas that you have there? It seemed like you had a few. Oh, me? Yeah, now that I, right, I think now that I'm actually verbalizing it. I don't feel like I have a, it'd be good to have something short. But I, yeah, I like what you said about we're focusing on. Kind of what the city should plan for or think about maybe, and I don't. Yeah, it was going a couple different ways. So, I don't know. I need a few minutes, I guess anyone else jump in. I just threw down something to work with. That's trying to fit some of the stuff in housing. The commission when this was discussed, I almost feel like I wasn't around when this was pre pre game, I'm thinking. This was pre game. This the housing chapter was pre game. So we need, we need some game. Well, I don't, you know, I don't know. I mean, I know you're starting at the top here, but I just, you know, like we can have a, I don't know where we seem to be leaning really forward onto this homelessness issue, which is really a state national level problem. So I'm not sure how much this chapter gets into that. But I was on a board of a homeless shelter for a number of years. And this is a big problem. It's not Montpelier's problem to solve. We can advocate for it, but I just don't know how much the rest of this it looks like that's almost like a secondary goal of importance than I know there are people in the community that feel that way but you know, I don't know that that's, you know, this is a this is a massive national problem. Yeah, well it's interesting that you do you took it to be focused on homelessness because that's actually I don't think that's the plan for the sentence. No, it's not that I'm just looking at the next, the two bullets below this paragraph. The second bullet the housing for all approach, not the part you're editing. Okay. Sorry, I jumped ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we can we can jump to head to that and and I can, I could definitely update you on the thought of why those. Those are the two main goals that are under the aspiration for the chapter. So let's get to that in a minute. So right now I have like housings of basic necessity that requires concerted effort and planning. That was off the cuff. Is that going getting to what we were talking about. Any ideas to improve it. Well, if you just actually if you just started with the location and quality of persons housing as the beginning of the section. And then it mentions what you're basically saying what you just wrote in that final sentence. Okay, so, so, yeah, I don't know if you need to tee it up anymore. I mean that second sentence. Kind of articulates why housing is important and then it says then you need planning, because that's essential. Okay. People go with that. Just just cut the first. All right. Leave a comment for. Okay. So that's first paragraph. No, let's revisit what they brought up. See, yeah, these are the general goals. Let me. Oh, this is one way we had multiple aspirations. Okay. So amount of housing is an aspiration. Neighborhood features like walkable. Close proximity to certain amenities. Second, third housing and a recipe safe and healthy energy, fish and resilient. And then the fourth is housing for all. So back up here, these two bullet points are capturing the first one's like the first three aspirations and the last one is the fourth aspiration. And I think the thought is that the first three at least have a lot in common with each other. So that's why they're kind of lumped together, but the fourth one is quite different. Do you, do you have concerns Gabe with like having the two bullets up front like that is I think it's misleading. No, I don't know, like when you I've never seen this before Kirby so like I don't know I just read that and I. I just had some emotions about it and then I went we went down below like when I look at the strategies it looked fine actually can you go back to that I, I just, you know, I just hate if we feel like we're biting off. All of central Vermont's, you know, homeless issues because it's a, it's a big issue and it, you know, most of these folks aren't from here but you know it's fine we can talk about it but when I looked at what was down below. I think it's a little bit further down I think it was one of the last ones Kirby it just this housing for all I mean I don't have any issue with any of that. Like, like, well, since, since these these bullet points are up in the intro brought you to like a place do you think it's misleading to have it up here or are you, are you fine. I think you could just delete. I think you could just say people living in vulnerable circumstances like that's me, like that, you know, then we can have a conversation about what's our, you know, how do we do that. What can we afford to do how to how do we work with other people in the community to do that. Yeah, that's that seems that's fine by me I mean that the homelessness thing in the recovery from reducing has to do with like two of the strategies we have. But, you know, we don't normally call out just two strategies, you know, because every chapter is dozens and dozens so. Is everybody good with the shortening that sentence to that. Believing the highlighted part here. Yeah, hearing any objections. Any planning. I have a question about the. Oh, you have you moved. In the previous section. It just seems like a bit. I mean maybe mob killer does have a severe housing shortage, but it just seems to be a little over the, I don't know, overstating things, you know, I mean it has a housing shortage for sure. I think severe is maybe adding a bit too much again that editorial quality to it like is there a way to measure how severe a housing shortage is. I guess, I guess my thoughts about that are when I joined the planning commission six, seven years ago, whatever. We had a housing shortage. And before I joined, we had a housing shortage. And everyone said we had a housing shortage and we have you know rental vacancies that are really alarming like like the vacancy rates are you know very low and alarming so it's just so hard to live here and so expensive. And then not really anything was getting done. And, and then now like, like there's been more attention in the last two three years. And a lot of that has to do with like national attention. And it's gotten worse and like the market's pretty crazy. For anybody who's trying to get in it's like it's gotten it's definitely like how like, you know, house values have shot up last two, three years, a lot. So, like, I'm okay with severe, especially if it's like, if we got to call it severe to get people's attention. I mean, I'm with you about the over the top thing because it's maybe counterproductive to be traumatic, but. I wasn't, I wasn't here I know there was a whole commission that was looking at this so I don't know if some of that comes from there but I will say, anecdotally I know like, you know, from an educational perspective we're having a hard time hiring folks that want to live here because they can't find a place to live and CVMC is also having a hard time finding people that will work here so, you know, paying a lot of money for traveling nurses to, you know, pay crazy amounts of rent for short term rentals and stuff because they can't house employees so I'm okay with severe I but again I know there were people wasn't the planning mission right there was a housing task force or something. Yeah, the chapter language, like, like the housing task force came up with the first version of the aspirations goals and strategies but the, but this chapter language stuff is, you know, first drafted by Mike and then mended by me. And then and then approved by the planning commission up to that. I'm okay either way I'm okay if you took it out. I'm okay. I would say there's no like, quantify the way to, you know, there's no mathematical equation for severe but Vermont is like so has so underbuilt, compared to the rest of the country, or maybe not to New England but so under built for the last few years that I would say it is severe. And like, I don't know if this belongs here but this is also like where we have failed pretty badly as a community, like in 100 years if we go back to like the 19. Oh, 120 years 1901 sentence, census like our population is the same as it was 100 years ago and the majority of the growth has has been in our in like the Montpelier, you know, suburbs. This is happening all around Montpelier and we have not stepped up to the task of providing ideally more than more than our share of housing given that we have all of these energy goals and we know that building housing in and around our walkable town towns. It's going to help meet a lot of those goals or not. Yeah, I'm all of this in here. Yeah. Does it make sense to add something then based on what you guys are saying that Montpelier has faced has long faced housing shortage, you know, to make it show that this isn't just like a current issue this is an issue that has been going on for maybe decades. And it's an opportunity to it's not just like, yes, we failed but that there's also a huge opportunity here there's like demand and that is trying to make it forward looking. I like that. That's good. Okay, do we want to drive it home any more than that based on our discussion, or so I just changed it to say the thing it faces a severe housing shortage is now has faced a housing shortage for many years that will only be overcome, etc. I could say that has faced a housing shortage for many years that has become severe or has, you know, that we have now kind of reached a point where something has to be done. It's gone unaddressed. I mean that seems like pretty self critical people. But I mean I'm going to be so critical about the city as you know. Do you have a thought about it, Maria, or anyone. I'm trying to think of. I think that just turns into two sentences. I feel like it has faced a housing shortage for many years that has now reached, you know, not a crisis but, you know, those worsened recent years. Or that I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I'm not in like the housing world. Oh, shoot. Sorry, I was distracted by eating some dinner. What, so what do you know to just like working this sentence that we made it two sentences. And so you know the first one. I feel there's faced a housing shortage for many years that has worsened in recent years or or this recently worsened so don't use yours twice in a row. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that sounds good to me. Yeah, I guess my only concern is right just to the extent that we can if language is meaningful to right just draw attention to it and what we need to do but I think what you have there sounds okay to me. Okay, we can go with that. Yeah. My main concern reviewing this is just to make sure that the, you know, ideally you'd have a professional editor. So we're having to fill in for that. And so editing stuff is, you know, I guess if I was going to put our goal for tonight or my goal for us tonight. In a humorous way would be to make sure that we do not look like we're bush league. So anyway, okay, so we got our we got our bullets here we got the planning context. This sentence I think is this sentence is new. I don't know thoughts about us calling ourselves charming. This is, I mean, I think I think it pretty much just came from like a soldier. So at least they call it our town charming, but readers won't know that. I think I had. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say I agree with you. I do not like it. Can we just say something simple like molecular is a, you know, an important central city of. You know, art and step central Vermont that's redundant, but. Yeah, just as it do if we need an intro sentence just to say that it's a, you know, got a downtown, a vibrant downtown, we have to say something intro sort of about. I can pull up our previous version to see what it did say. This is the planning context. So we have this stuff that that was apparently caught that was, I'll just, I'll just paste it in the comment. So yeah, I mean, right, right after the housing, what we had that was like some context for that is. Maybe this part is fluff. Maybe I should have looked harder. Actually, I'm going to delete that because that's not actually like, very substantive. I think we're just looking for like a sentence that describes Montpelier's current built environment. So I think just like the city of Montpelier has a vibrant downtown course surrounded by several neighborhoods and maybe even say like historic districts. I think it's just supposed to be one sentence that describes to anyone what Montpelier looks like. Okay, you know, I think it's just described. Yeah, just like laid out there. This is what the city consists of. Say it again and I'll type it. Okay, the city of Montpelier either consists of or contains a vibrant downtown core. And you can say that includes the Vermont state capital or Vermont capital complex surrounded by and then surrounded by several distinct and historic neighborhoods. Okay. I like that better everybody good with that. Oh, someone to move on. You know, trying not to drag this out too much, although it is kind of charging a little bit but so couple things about this section and for the other pages I think we'll want to talk about this but definitely want to talk about it for this one. So the next sentence is the company map shows the current densities of housing units. I just because we're trying to get away from density and people think about density all the time like I know it's a jargon word that has a meaning and that it's not incorrect to use it here. But we can also like just not put that in people's minds and we can just say distribution of housing units in Montpelier. Okay, so here's the thing. Julie had done this comment about ideas for maps for this recent proposed potential projects location of subsidized housing and create a housing unit density map. Okay. So I have some feelings about number two. I don't think we want to call out subsidized housing their stigma attached to that and like, and, and what's the, what's the goal there is to like, brag about building it because it's like mostly, you know, not the city city works with nonprofits but anyways it just seems like, I don't know. I feel like we can do better, especially focusing on what our planning goals are right. So, like, if they can make a map of areas around the downtown that have high potential for infill development, you know, whether that would be, you know, undeveloped land or just neighborhoods that are, you know, more spread out than, than other areas around the downtown. I don't know, looking looking at brainstorm map ideas. Hint hint John. So you're just looking for what map to put here that would have like, make the most sense. Yeah, do you know how like they're trying to put like maps on every page but like what kind of maps are the most appropriate. Like, what should we encourage them to try to include for the housing page. Sorry, John. I was just going to say, I think what might be nice is like a housing map that is like a thematic map that shows building footprints colored by decade of when they were built. And you can, we can sort of see the evolution at a glance of our housing development. It tells like a number of different stories. I don't know. I'm trying to think of something that's like simple. That's amazing. I totally want that. Can you do that job. Yeah, I think I totally want that. I think as long as I can grab the camera data and just sync it up to the parcels or building data we have it shouldn't it should be should be fine. Okay, that's that's great that and that would look really cool. I was going to say I got density map of the type of housing and where it's located so like apartments or single family homes or, you know, any other configuration of housing I think would be interesting to see where that's located. Or like, you know, because we keep talking about how there could be more, you know, one or two bedroom housing because that's what people really need. That's what currently is being that demand currently is being satisfied. So, I think that that could be informative. I don't really know what it would look like. Yeah, it could be interesting. I think I think that's all we could probably pull out though would be if it's just like a zone to single family or multifam like or if we know. But I believe like like single families that have an ad you that actually has multiple units or even a duplex. We won't I don't know if we'll necessarily even know like how it's actually being used. But at least single family versus multifamily we could do. That would show not a lot of multifamily. I have. I'll try to dig this up. And I don't know how much this plays into the housing chapter narrative but I feel like it should be someplace and and it looks at essentially like the value per acre and the value looking at neighborhoods and when they were built and the housing part is like ever since we adopt the city adopted zoning like the housing we built since then required three times as much infrastructure so for due to our like regulations like you needed 310s as much sewer pipe and three times as much road frontage and average we basically have you know required inefficient housing construction since that the 650s and 60s and how some of that older housing around the core like or the multifamily housing you know more than pays for itself when we think of it in terms of its value per piece of infrastructure, right. Yeah, it would be interesting to maybe make a note, you know for when Mike's background I don't know if you have to have a separate EMS address if you put up an ADU but you know I've heard the arguments that you know all this action to allow ADUs hasn't created a lot of housing but somebody put up an awesome map in California one of the cities I don't know if it was L.A. or San Francisco or something but it was there was a lot of it showed how many ADUs have been built since they passed their statewide legislation and there were a lot of housing units. So if there were a way to track it it might be, you know because that's a that's another way to increase housing right as if we have more ADUs and I do want to figure out a way for us to measure, especially, you know, going forward, new housing starts here, the 2022 census population estimates just came out and I noticed my pillar hadn't moved any and a lot of that's driven off of the their building permit survey and digging into that I noticed, you know, they had one unit for my pillar permitted in the past year and I was like that can't be right. And thinking further it looked like it was imputed and no one had replied to like the census survey from the city in the past, at least the past year. And then I also previously tried working with the software company that has the city's earning software and they have no open API nothing we can read or connect to so like, we have no idea what's being built and we talk about how this is a priority. But we just have no clue like how many homes we're building or not all just any data. And it seems like we need to just say like, no, like this is a, if we're going to measure anything, you know, in a regular basis like let's, let's do this and it's not very hard to do. And obviously, they should be reporting to the, to the, that's this building survey because that that tries with the population estimates are so if we're going to be underestimated and population growth and all these other numbers. That's also a problem. There's a digress here. Yeah, I think you should at least talk to Mike about that to see. If you could send him an email. Well, maps, do we have any ideas about specific maps. I mean I think the two that we have there could be enough to get them going. And how about there, the scene that they wanted to show a map of the recent proposed and potential housing developments. So, I don't know if this is going back to what John just said, but maybe wouldn't make sense to highlight like the, like the Northfield street housing stuff like this that's currently kind of like in a pipeline. My issue with the recent proposed type stuff is I just don't have a whole lot of confidence that this is going to be updated all the time. And I'm just imagining somebody 10 years out being like, oh, somebody was proposing 10 years ago this thing, like, that's helpful. Like, yeah, so in the places where they're trying to like flag specific things that are like snapshots in time, like I think we should probably avoid it. Unless we really are committed to being diligent updating this thing. And then the last paragraph, do you want to just take that out to the extent that the whole things in there because of a map they plan to make them. Yeah. People go with that. I'll leave a note. Okay, it looks like we gave them a lot to like to chew on. And you can see if they come back and say that any of them are doable. Okay. So the synergy section, I'm not sure. Yeah, I didn't have anything there. Anybody else has anything I didn't I did not spend a lot of time coming to this today. So, um, any, any help with catching things be great. And all I could tell from this is that I think that most of this was pulled from what we gave them at least. One thing that I would mention, I, to me, I find the term community services a little bit confusing there because I think they're really talking about municipal services right like, I mean, to me, community services mean something different than I think they mean, they're, I don't know, I just find that term kind of broad. Yeah, but that's more. Thank you. These are just our aspiration the goals I didn't I didn't go through I'm assuming that they are stated as we pass them with no changes. But for those who are newer, and there's a lot of folks who are newer. You know, housing's a big issue and going through the aspirations goals strategies for the housing chapter is definitely something I would recommend everybody know what we're going to be bringing the city council on this issue. And, you know, whether whether our strategies are going to be effective enough to deal with the big problem. So these bullets were pulled out from the strategies. It's not all the strategies but it's, it's the ones that were chosen to be pulled out from but to make sure that we these are the ones we want to focus on I did. It would have been nice to have loads of time today and it would have been nice to pull up strategies and talk about what I thought were the most important or, you know, but this is these are some of the some of them, and these who's involved sections like it's been something that the consultant seem to be wanting to make sure that we include. I mean this is not something that was a big part of the chapter language we have passed before. I mean I guess it's fine there might be people who are curious about this so it's not like. I'm assuming that they plan to make some kind of like emphasis like a draw attention to these things that are in highlights. So if we want to make sure that we agree that these are the sorts of things we want attention drawn to for that match like what our goals are for the plan. In my case they say the housing committee has been part of developing. I'm in 24 units. And the number of subs it's like, for some reason yet that there's a big focus on subsidized housing and homelessness in this which is not what our chapters mostly about. Yeah, Kirby for this whole section. It just seems very convoluted. If you're responsible for managing housing and city Montpelier, it seems like that's just like a quick like the planning department housing committee, you know, just like that there's like a simple, it's a simple question, and there's a simple answer to it. And I think they can go into detail after answering the question. But right now it's just kind of like large blocks of text that you kind of have to like read all of it to see who is actually managing housing in this year Montpelier. And when you get to the planning department. It is like you're just saying, with several for profit and nonprofit housing partners to develop projects within the city. I mean the planning department also plays a direct role with homeowners and anyone is not just like, you know, commercial properties. So, I found that this section kind of confusing, even though it seems like it's supposed to be straightforward. I agree. There's just a bunch here. I don't know if we want, I mean, do, should we leave them some general feedback to try to make this more succinct. I mean, I don't know, thinking of suggesting they could just do to make it really succinct they can make it bullet points of different stakeholders. I don't know if that I don't know if that would end up looking good or not that would have to kind of have to try and see it but. Did these sections that they're, they're creating this come from like the past planning document because when we were going through the chapters I remember looking at goals and strategies and not having a lot of this conversation so I wonder where they pulled all this from. It's like there's stuff at the bottom of the plan language that we had. Most of this is being developed though. By them. Or maybe Mike's giving it to them, like, outside of outside of things. I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean what we passed for the housing plan language was a summary of past efforts. And then there's two sentences about the planning department partnering with different organizations. And a list of those organizations that were just named that are that are subsidized housing developers. And then the city and regional housing partners have worked together and then with a list of some assessments that have been done recently. That's, that's it. It's, it's a lot less words and content than what we were just looking at. So I am seeing that they're part of this was the housing task force was described farther up in the document so they, they pulled that from. Yeah, probably the hit all the historical I mean I would think if somebody's looking at this as they move into the future and they're trying to figure out. Okay, I have this particular issue who would I engage with or what could I get involved with that deals with that sort of a bullet. A list of the stakeholders with what their responsibilities are that could be helpful, but it doesn't need to be like, you know, a couple pages long. Yeah. Do you mean to do, should I'm in this note or does this cover what you're saying game. The plan goes in firstly sexually shorter and succinct. I said maybe just mentioned the stakeholders, even the stakeholders and their functions. I'm going to, I was planning to leave it. What kind of things do we want called out things. I mean, of course, an obvious thing that comes to mind is like to call out things that show the need for our housing like the lack of housing growth. Or the vacancies rates for rentals. You know, that's the kind of stuff that seems like needs to be drawn out because that's like facing the truth of like what we're facing right now. Not like boasting about building subsidized housing. Are you guys okay with me mentioning the things I just said, or are there other ideas of things to call out. I think we're being aggressive we can say like, did you know only 40 units were built last year. I don't even know if it is 40 minutes, but you know, thanks to the heart of how little housing is built every year. Any other issues. You know, I this wasn't I wasn't here when you guys talked about this I think I jumped in at economic development but I will just say somebody's working on some projects we're getting to a place where it without private public partnerships. I mean, only the most affluent people are going to be able to live around here. I mean it's just the cost of you know a lot of material costs have come down since you know COVID created some supply chains issues but the infrastructure costs are almost double what they were pre 2020. And so I think we're going to have issues on this everywhere you know whether we're looking at the, you know, country club road or any of the stuff that people are trying to do that. You know it's, it's a debate for our whole country right you can all read the reports about New York City and it's like well boy I mean, if you have a third of these buildings that need to be demolished who's responsible for that right like how do we work on that and I think, you know, again I don't know I don't need to be ideological but I think just the idea that there's there's going to need to be a work cooperative effort between private developers and and the city. Right we may have to put some money into certain things if we want to see some things done so. And I think we could probably. There's probably some very clear data that shows all that gets built is either housing for the, you know, fairly wealthy and public housing, like, that's it. The housing in my period that's been built probably in the past few decades has all been public, done with public dollars. With the exception of, you know, pockets of single family homes that are extremely have been extremely expensive to build. And I think there is somewhere in here you kind of scroll through it I don't remember if I saw tiff financing but I think tip is certainly, you know something that can be used but the, the, you know, even just like this active 50 stuff that was brought up by the country humanity, right the NDA is I mean that that could save hundreds of thousands of dollars permitting fees that aren't necessary if we're if they're building where we'd like them built right walkable neighborhoods and stuff so. I mean if we're going to highlight if that stuff exists in here those are things I would think is that's tiff is a private public partnership right the city is going to invest in certain areas. But you know the, the cost of the infrastructure with property taxes over a period of time so those are things that you know we could highlight. Okay, I'm going to add that to the note. I think my pillar, yeah my pillar gave up its tiff, it applied for tiff and have one but then didn't use it, the fire call. And then I might be getting this parcel wrong, but. I plan to get a new one for the country club road. Yeah, or that's you know that's not set and stuff that's that's the thinking. Okay. So I think we can. So we've left all these comments, feedback, change some things for se, I think we can move on to the next chapter unless anybody else is a housing thing. Okay, so I'm going to move on to go in the order they're in and the file, which means natural resources is next. So for this one. This seemed to also to be some more intro language that looks like it was drafted by the consultants that like people kind of just describing an ideal version I'm up here, like from like a postcard version, like we had the last one. And I went back and looked at what we had written originally and I kind of liked it better not saying it's like the best thing or anything but. So instead of saying what Peter is a city among mountains rivers and farmland. We have my pillars unique natural setting influences both development patterns in the character of the city. While pillars urban core centered at the confluence of the one is key river and north brand and the north branch, all development stresses along the river valleys and the surrounding hillsides. So that's descriptive. But I thought, I don't know, I preferred that over what was there. We have thoughts. I'm seeing a nod from Brian, so I'll just plug that in. I need to leave this comment, but don't don't love using appeal your rights. I don't. I just have my own connotations it just seems knobby. It doesn't the people that I've heard use that word. But I think we can do better on this one. By the way, I mean, I skimmed over but that I think these bullets about the goals are fine. They're just describing short like in short what the goals are about later on. Since this is language, since this is gold font I take a big plan to like to pull this out. Oh, and I, and I did have alternative language here was just something else I pulled from. I think I pulled this from our other document. So instead of this. I mean, I don't even think it's accurate to say that we. I don't know anyway. So instead of what's there in the gold. I pulled out this other language we get we done. Well, Peter has deliberately created a compact settlement that accommodates development in order to protect the nearby rural countryside. Our population settlement molecular means less development pressure in the surrounding rural communities and the less water quality and preservation of unique natural resources are key priorities of this plan. I don't think I pulled this I think I actually rewrote what they were trying to say. What are people's thoughts about. The change. Kirby it seems that your alternative language is the same thing as well teaching the same kind of wording as the second bullet point in the previous section. The whole complex settlement concentrate on, you know, so I think adding it adding it in as is would be redundant redundant. Yeah. Yeah, it's. I was going through this so quickly I think what I think I pulled something from our materials from before, and then modified it like a bit. So it's not a surprise to me that it's using the same thing. What are your thoughts here. I see that there's, there's a few different things trying to be said here. Just what we think about for the plant opening up the planning context like what what what do we want to focus on as a priority. How about just the last sentence in that paragraph so I guess I like the quality and thoughtful and conservation or critical priorities for Montpelier preservation. Yeah, but just using the last sentence as an intro for this. For this section. I guess I like calling out that the reasons for why the reasons why we're not going to be, you know, overly like like protecting natural resources at the sake of development is because we see the bigger regional picture. I like calling that attention to that. So the plan is built around that idea to a large extent. But the, you know, but then there's water quality and then certain conservation measures that we take that are sort of aside from that. Unfortunately, other than this opening sentence. The rest of the text we have here is just about this natural resources inventory thing. Like, this part that's in gold here is going to be the only like planning context type stuff we say. Well, I, and I'm going to ask the rest of you because I actually don't I don't know the answer to this. I think that Montpelier's density and development has taken the pressure off the surrounding areas because it sounded like we were saying the opposite, like an hour ago. When we're talking about all the development that there has been in Berlin and Barry and everywhere else because Montpelier hasn't. We wanted to times. Yeah, that's a theory. Our plan wants it to. Yeah. Okay. We can skip this one for now and come back. I think we're all I don't know about you guys but I'm hitting like 640 wall. A little bit. Just, we can we can go on to see what else we can cover here. I'm not sure that I flagged anything else in this chapter but we can run through what's here. Yeah, I didn't really touch this. This, this did you know thing I guess that's fine. I often forgot forget what water body is Berlin pond. And then when I remember, oh yeah, drive by that all the time, because it's that little pond on the way to the mall area, the Walmart area. Right. That's right, right. Anyways, these these things seem to be cut and pasted from other document they seem fine. You know the aspirations and goals as as the other chapters who's involved this one's a lot shorter seems fine. Does anybody have any comments for these last sections. So, let's plan just to come back to. Let's just think about the planning context for what we want to say about natural resources and and revisit that later. How are people feeling about looking at any of these other chapters, or should we should we wait, I mean we gave them a lot of housing, I think. So, so I think we could we can maybe just like to stop there and we'll pick it up. I think later. Yeah, I'd almost prefer Kirby to be able to take a look through and then come in with my own if I've got some things I want to highlight. I just, I just didn't look at these ahead of time. I mean, yeah, I waited until today to do it. So yeah, so let's let's just do that and yep, and folks. You can look at transportation and public and utilities and facilities also. And there's probably going to be more available this all the stuff is. There's a plan website under its own folder now, which is the folders the storyboard folder. Okay, so yeah, let's just, let's just call that for now. I'm like, I don't know, I'm all of a sudden wiped out personally because it's it's a lot to go through these things like talking and out loud. Easier to go through individually. Mike had put on your discussed plans for public engagement on zoning amendment for our next thing to talk about on the agenda. And at this moment, I'm not sure exactly what he was getting at with that. I thought like, I think we had a plan for to do a pre hearing thing. Does anybody else have any recollection of what he might be referring to with that. I think all it can say is that maybe it's a good idea for we want to, I think we do want to do a bridge commentary from the planning commission about the density issue. And maybe about solar shading. Also, since this stuff's coming up. We should probably, we should probably go ahead and do one of those two bridge articles now. And then maybe do another one closer to, you know, when it's going to be before city council, just to space them a little bit. So that's my way of saying anyone interested in doing a first draft of a commentary for the bridge about either one of those issues, shading or density. And I feel like first drafts are easier to do because then everyone will just rewrite it anyway, which is good. I would take a stab at the density but can, can someone I don't know that I have like the most recent info on what we were going to do on that. And let me see what I have here. Just send me that I'd be willing to just take a very, you know, broad draft and everyone tear it up. There's There's there's an outline on the shared drive called seeing you density, because this, you know, Congress for new urbanism thing is what is, is, you know, we're responding to that. So it's under, there's a, there's a folder called zoning changes. Okay. Yeah, and it'll probably I'll probably have some inaccuracies and stuff too but I know it can. I'm happy to help get something out there. I think if you base it off that I think that's our, that was that was our general idea, and we don't have to get, you know, in the weeds it's more about the, you know, policy reasoning behind it. So that yeah that would be really helpful. I would appreciate that a lot. But yeah, be good to get the ball rolling for, you know, the next probably want to send it to the bridge in the next month. So go for just get a draft and then have people tinker with it and then send it along. I think that would be really helpful that's that's something we need to do for public outreach. Otherwise I'm not sure what what else Mike was was asking about when he when you put that on the agenda. So wasn't he going to give us more zoning amendments. I thought last time we met, he said he was still putting them all together. I hadn't given them all to us yet. Yeah, I think he was doing that, but but you know since he since he was unexpectedly out tonight. But yeah. I'm not sure if he was planning to give it to us tonight though. I don't think so. I don't think so because that's that's that's not what you know what he put on the agenda for that item. But but yeah hopefully by our next meeting can build to do that. I was just thinking a few. The zoning amendments that he's referring to in that. And the agenda. Is it really just the density issue that you think no. Okay. But it's because the density and the solar shading and all of the other things that he that he's bringing to us are all going to be in together as part of the same process. So yeah, he was saying that all the things. Okay. But for public engagement on all the things but. He had mentioned before that he had an idea for a sort of pre hearing kind of presentation. But since Mike had kind of a plan for that I kind of dropped trying to come up with anything else. So I think maybe he was planning to talk about that more. I don't know. We'll hear about next meeting. He'll, I'm sure he'll bring it to us next meeting. But yeah, you're right we need we need his his list so we can look at the actual drafts of the changes. But I feel like at the last meeting we gave him a lot of feedback about what we expecting to do with with a lot of those things so hopefully not a ton more work as far as voting on changes with that stuff. But we do have to look you're up to do the to do the outreach aspect of it and then do the hearings themselves, which is going to take a number of meetings, and we were planning to not meet in August. So this might be, it might be September we do this hearings. To see. Could be July. Okay. Anybody have anything else on the zoning stuff. Okay. Let's let's go ahead and approve the minutes and then try to get out of here alone. I know I'm like beat all of a sudden. Like, functioning smell great. So it's so if everybody can take a look at the minutes that were in the email, like, since May 8. So our last meeting, I'll move to approve the minutes. Okay, so you motion to approve the minutes from Brian. I'll second. Thank you for Maria. So anybody need more time. Okay. Those favor approving the minutes from me say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed. Okay, so we minutes approved. So we'll come back next time. Yeah, I encourage everybody to try to take a look in the share drive at the storyboards for the. For the three that are in there other than housing. And go ahead and feel free to leave comments and. There might be some more added in the near future for the storyboard work. Hopefully Mike will get us the zoning amendment language before the next meeting so people might might have to be ready to review that as well. But that's kind of like what we've got coming up. So if nobody has anything else we can go ahead and turn. Anything else before that. Okay. We have a motion to adjourn to adjourn. Motion from our young. Second. Second from Kate. Okay. Anything else before we go. All right, those in favor of getting out of here say aye. Hi. Any opposed. Okay. If you oppose it, you know, you're free to stay if you want. All right. See you guys soon. Thanks guys.