 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley, as we discuss marriage, raising children and managing difficulties that arise in the family. We're ready to begin, so let's talk marriage. Pastor David and Marie, thank you for joining us again for this Let's Talk Marriage. And you know, what I want to speak about today is submission. Seems like the world has this definition of what submission truly is, which is really different from what submission looks like in a Christian marriage. So, Pastor, when you think of the word submission in the context of marriage, what comes to mind? You know, submission is a word that speaks concerning order. It's a word that speaks concerning authority and response to it. And so in life, we already have submission. Submission is just part of being alive. I mean, I'm submitted to governmental authority. I'm submitted to the authority of my parents. I'm submitted to the authority of my teachers, principal, things like that. In order for society to run in an orderly fashion, there needs to be a proper sense of authority and response to it. And so in the Book of Ephesians, Paul is speaking concerning order and how the church should be in order. And he speaks concerning a variety of things that relate to that, including the church itself and the members of the church. And so he begins by speaking of a mutual submission that you're to be submitted one to another in the fear of the Lord. But he breaks it down into how that practically works in the family, the husband, the wife, and the children. And so it's a simple process of maintaining order in a home. You see, any body that has two heads is a monster. And in marriage, there needs to be a place where authority is modeled and recognized. And so God has placed that authority on the shoulders of the husband. The wife's response to that authority demonstrates her submission to God himself, because the woman is to submit to her husband even as she submits to the Lord. So her submission to the Lord helps her to understand how the Lord has established the order in the family. And then the children are to submit to their parents. They're to honor their parents, honor your father, honor your mother, and all of that, because that's what is intended to produce a society that has a proper recognition of what is proper authority and that keeps it stable. And so in the biblical way of looking at it, Jesus Christ himself is the second person of the Trinity. And you have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And Jesus himself said that he had come to do the will of his Father, thus modeling to us what proper submission is. He's God in the flesh, so who was not less than God, but in his position at that time, he was submitted to his Father. So my wife is not less than me. You know, my wife has been created in the image of God, and thus she has relationship with God, and she has her own relationship that is not built on mine. But when we together as a unit are ministering or serving God, or we're as a married couple, we have to have a submission, you know, to the point where I, excuse me, I will take the responsibility, and I do take responsibility for the decisions that are made that we together work on. So in I think in marriage sometimes there's a misunderstanding of how that works. But if you saw it as just a way to keep order, if you see it as a way to be able to work together and to accomplish great things, you always accomplish great things when you work in unity always. But when there's division, Satan tries to divide. When there's division, the house that's abided against itself will not stand. And so that's how God had created the order for society, and for life in general, and including life in the church and in marriage. Well, you know that even with that definition that you've given, because it seems like the world has defined, has really influenced the definition of submission in the context of marriage, you mentioned it briefly, is that the wife is to be submitted, you know, sub below, they take that and it seems like the world has now defined this definition that couples are now clinging on to and using that in the context of a Christian marriage. And they have now used the word submission in a way where you just explain authority coming alongside with to a point where now it's beneath. And you can see how the enemy has used that and really twisted that definition. So Pastor, and you guys are both open to answer this one, how has the world influenced that definition of submission in the context of marriage? Speaking from a male perspective, I believe that men sometimes not understanding that that they cherish and love their wife and to be tender towards her and washer in the water of the word and all the things the scripture speaks to us as husbands were supposed to do. I believe in what I've seen and I'm sure Marie would say the same thing. We talk about this would be some husbands don't know how to lead, so they bully or they command or they belittle. They try to force their will upon their wife. You need to do this. I tease with the church because there's a grain of truth in this that the only scripture some Christian men know is in the Bible somewhere say you're supposed to submit to me. Submission is voluntary subordination. That's what the word means to voluntarily subordinate to place myself voluntarily under something. And so when a husband says you're supposed to, well, true, but also the husband is to cherish and be tender towards and nourish and all of those things too. So if we want to start throwing scriptures at one another, we're not going to resolve any of the problems that we find ourselves involved in. And so the world has taken the idea of men and women and has unfortunately I think given a false definition of what it means to be a man and false definition of what it means to be a woman. And because of that, there's a lot of confusion in terms of roles and expectations, you know, even in the house. Oh, I don't do that kind of work. That's a woman's work and that kind of thing. And then the woman, you know, can say the same thing of the man. Well, I never learned to do those things. That's man's work. I think work is generally just work. It has to be done by somebody. And so the definition of defining labor, you know, what is a man do what is a woman do it for Marie and me. I think there are some natural roles that take place. And we could talk about that a little bit. But for Marie and me, whatever has worked for us in that house is the best thing. So I don't fold the clothes. Because she doesn't like the way I fold, you know, she won't do certain things because she knows that I would prefer done this way. So we just kind of work it out. I mean, you know, it's work, dishes have to be washed, clothes have to be washed, and towels have to be folded and all of that. That's all work, you know. So on the one hand, I think that men sometimes think that there's man's work and woman's work. And perhaps in some things, men may be more inclined towards certain things than a woman. Engineering and things like that seem to be more things that men are more inclined towards even biologically and just the way that our minds are our brains are worked out. And there are other things that seem to be instinctual with women who who, you know, you see it all the time. If a woman walks in with a newborn baby, and the husbands are standing around and here comes a woman with her newborn. What's the first thing that women normally do? If they don't cluster around that woman, it's very unusual. Do the men all cluster around and start cooing at the baby and no, no, we don't do that. Why not? We love babies too, but there seems to be an instinct that is a God given instinct in women that we men don't have. And I'm not trying to cultivate that instinct in myself. I just want to live out whatever it is that I'm supposed to be. So I'll show tenderness to my child or or I'll love my child or I speak to my my grandchildren with a different tone in a different way. Because that's adapted. That's something I've learned to do. That's something I've watched others do and especially just found ways to express my love for them in ways that are from my heart. So I think that sometimes the men, the men have misunderstood, some men have misunderstood their roles. And they weren't defined by scripture, they were defined by society, or defined by what they saw their dad or their mom do, or if they had no father, if a father was absent, they basically just lived the way that they were trained by by the woman or what they've even seen on TV. That's kind of how it works. Because some things you learn by watching, you know, first time I ever went to a restaurant, I was 16 years old. I mean, first time on my own, my parents didn't take us to a restaurant. It wasn't any anything like it is today. We're going to a restaurant as normal for many families. It wasn't for us in the 50s and early 60s. And so we didn't go to restaurants. I did not know how to order in a restaurant. The first time I went to one with some friends of mine. And so I still remember walking in. This is learned behavior. That's the point I'm trying to make. And I ordered my first breakfast. And my mom used to make eggs, what we would call medium. Where's that with the comma? Over medium. Over medium. See, Marie still ordered. But over medium. And so, but I didn't call it over medium. I never even heard that term. So my mom would say, how do you want your eggs? And I'd say, with the ball on top. That's what I would say. And so that meant over medium. And so I still remember going to a restaurant and the waitress asking, what would you like? I said, I'll take some eggs. And how do you want them? I said, with the ball on top. And she looked at me like, what? And for me, that was like, I don't even know. So I had seen a movie where they ordered it ordered it over easy. That's the only term I ever heard with an egg. And so I said, over easy. Well, it comes all runny and gooey and ugly. And that's when I began to learn how to how to order food. So you learn these things. Well, the next time you want an egg like you like it, you're to order it over medium. Yes, ma'am. I used to work in a restaurant. Yes, you did. So there's a difference between, yeah, there's over medium is, that's the ball on top. It's a ball on top. Well, you know, it's interesting because, as you're mentioning roles, would you say gender roles have really played into the definition, traditional gender roles? As you mentioned, some families say the husband does this, the wife does this. Has that affected the word submission and how it's maybe defined today by your stereotypical gender roles? I think gender roles are things that evolved over time. Each society probably had expectations. In the times of Israel, for example, in the time of Jesus, the man did not go and get the water. You know, it was a woman who went with the water jug and she was the one who filled the jug and brought the jug of water and all of that. You see that in both the old as well as the New Testament. So there were already roles that were recognized and expected 2000 plus years ago and further than that. So I suspect that a lot of what we consider today simple roles just evolved from necessities from things that needed to be done. So the man would go out to do the harvesting and working in the field or taking care of the oxen or whatever. Well, the wife would take care of the children and make sure that they were fed and clothed and bathed and all. And I suspect that they just naturally flowed out of what was needed during that period. So in the 21st century with the advent of so much technological work and all, you know, a woman, a man can get a job working in computers, programming, whatever. I don't know that that is specifically a male or a female job. It's simply a job. So within the house, I think you kind of determine what the roles are individually. There are certain things that I expected, but not everybody does. For example, I expected that my wife would cook. I expected that because that's how I was raised. My mom was a cook, and my dad occasionally did it. In Marie's home, that was the same thing. But Marie never made meals. She never cooked. She was a college student. She got married shortly after graduating college, and she had never learned to cook. And so I was her guinea pig, you know, and she learned to cook, really learned to cook for me from her mom. And then on occasion, my mom would say, well, David likes this. And I think that's kind of how that happens. So you develop whatever your roles may be. And whatever is comfortable. See, I would never have Marie go out and mow a lawn. You know, if she came out and tried to help me mow the lawn and do the yard work, I don't like it. I don't want her out there. I don't want her hot. I don't want her sweating up. Why would you do that? I'll do this. And eventually what Marie said is we got to hire somebody to do it. And she did. And that was great. It's been great ever since. To get me out of the yard, you know, because I can kill everything, you know. So you kind of determine those things. I mean, if if if if Liv was a mechanic before she met you, or an accountant before you met you, she met you, she probably should be still helping with the car or with the books. So I don't see either one of those necessarily being a role only a man should fill. So you determine that, you know, based on what what your your wife and you can do, what do you do best? What does she do best? Let's do that. Right. So it makes it best for us. That's how it works for us. Well, she can cook and I can eat. Yeah, there you go. That's the best thing to think that works for us. You know, Pastor and Marie, if you guys can both chime in on this one. So what we've been speaking about submission and we've been speaking about little bit of gender roles and that some of the roles already been defined from even biblical times and it really works out to what's best for the couple. How does is there any type of threat to the Christian context of submission? When a woman is the moneymaker in the marriage for the home, income comes primarily from the woman from the wife, or the wife makes more in salary than the husband. Does that change the role of biblical submission? No. Do you want me to answer that? Because I agree with you. I agree. I agree. Yeah, we've talked about these things and we've worked these things out. That's why I talk so much. That's true because Marie prefers me doing it. So anybody who's just watching thinking, why doesn't Marie speak, you know, I will turn to her if she wants to say something she will. And she feels more comfortable with me doing it. Anyway, with that said, when we first began our fellowship, well, when we first dated, then got married, when we were married, Marie worked, Marie had a job, she made more than me. She made more than me. She really was the majority breadwinner for our home. So she worked 40 hours. Me, I was going to college, I was doing part-time work. And so we relied on her paycheck, by and large. And then even after I planted this church, Marie brought in the greater amount of income for us. She had to work in order for us to survive. And she was a school teacher. She would do substitute teaching. And we relied on her income. And so we never have, Marie and I have never said that's my money or your money. It's always been our money. Because her work is for us. And my work is for us. It's never been my money. I have my spending money. I have my, you know, fund money. It's not, we have a common purse, if you will. So anything I make or if she should have opportunity to say she speaks somewhere and they give her a gift of some sort. Does some ministry. She never will call it hers. It's always ours, John. And so I've never had a problem with that. I've never had the problem of thinking I'm not a man because I'm not producing income. Other than at the beginning of our, and this is how I learned this, by the way, at the beginning of our marriage, within the first year. And I was going to school and in my, and I just was, our life was not going at that moment anywhere that I thought it should be going. And I, I, at that time, I had to wrestle with this. I had to, at that time, realize that that my time would come to be the man I wanted to be for her. And that even though she was, she was producing the income, because I did wrestle with that, even though she was producing the income, I was still the man that she loved, the man she supported, the man she believed in, and the man that she knew God would use the future to care for this family. And so when she convinced me with her love, and she lovingly did so, when she convinced me that I wasn't a failure, that I wasn't a loser, that set me free to, to just to become what, what I, I did become, which is, you know, the breadwinner for the home to care for her. Because our way of thinking, my way of thinking was, one of these days, I want my wife to be able to be free to be with the children or to go and have a cup of coffee with her friends, to not feel that she has to produce income so, so that we as a family could live. And God has been gracious to us in that, so that after a few years of our ministry and all, I was able to take care of my family without Reese necessarily having to work anymore. And when that happened, I was very happy. And so even to this day, should she go out and do something, she'll come home. And she does it very infrequently, to be honest with you, it's not something regular. But should she come home with, look honey, they gave me a gift today. I'll tell her, that's yours, baby, you spend it on whatever you want. But she never does, if she spends it at all, it'll be on me or somebody else. That's Marie. That's what she does. Because this is ours together. And it's, I'm telling you, if, if you were to have a word that represents Marie and David Rosales, it's ours. It's the word us. And I have to tell you, John, those early years for me to work at, I was blessed. It wasn't a, I didn't feel an obligation. I felt it was just a, it was a blessing to, to go, to be able to, to go to the school and teach the kids. And, and they hired me, I was blessed. I was really blessed to be able to bring that in. And God always met our needs, always met our needs. And those early years are one of the most fondest memories I have of how the Lord just worked it all together. And, and here we are. And here we are. I was making $100 a week when the church began. Wow. And I had a house payment and I had small children. If Marie did not work and produce an income, we would not have made it. So no, I've always been grateful for my wife and her willingness, you know, to, to do a job. And, but I never felt after, after she had reassured me and made me feel like a man, because I didn't feel like one, that set me free to be what I am right now. That's, and that's what I want to see if you can give us some more insight on pastor. You know, we talk about submission in the marriage and, you know, when, when it's easy to, well, I don't want to say it's easy. It, you mentioned Marie set you free in a sense, released you in a sense, when you felt that she was able to, when she was able to encourage you, that you are the man that God has called you. How can that really mess with the guy's mind in a sense where I'm supposed to be providing, I'm supposed to be doing this, and my wife's bringing home the income, and she's the one doing all the work. How can she submit to me? How can I be a leader in my home if I can't even provide? He has to lead spiritually. I mean, the thing that, that would make the man feel like he's not providing is if he's not being the priest of the home. That's a, that's a major thing. You know, if it's like this, I, I came home one day. I don't know if you'll remember this or no mama, but I came home one day and, and our church was, was very early, very early in the history of our church. And, and I was, I was, I was thinking that I wasn't really providing for the family the way that I should, and, and all, all of that. And, and what I had to do, and I'll just, I'll just cut to the chase instead of giving this the full story. I, I had to come to the place realizing that, that income is something that would eventually be there for us, but my spiritual leadership was always supposed to be there for us. And so I realized that, I realized that she needs a godly man first and foremost. And the children need a godly father first and foremost. And that I can provide for my, my family something that money won't buy. And that is a stability and, and, and a strength and a proper relationship with mom. All of those are the, the, the things that make the child comfortable and make the marriage stable. So when a man is out of work and, and, and the way it works for men, at least this used to be the general stereotype for us, is a man would always refer to himself by what he does. You know, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. What do you do for a living? Yeah. Well, you know, John, who are you? You know, what do you, you know, who are you? It's really a who are you question and just, oh, yeah, well, I, I work at the church or it's the first thing we do. Right. You know, who are you, David? Oh, I'm a pastor. I go to, I go to my job because we're identified by that. And what happens when you don't have a job? You know, what happens when you don't have something to identify with? You're, you're, well, you're boiled down to I'm a person and people don't value persons and we know that you have to be an important person. And, and you're important only because of what you do. And so that's why you see guys who would rather have a title, you know, than almost anything. So you're a custodian, you know, I'm the head custodian. Right. You know, that's how we are. Right. And so we identify by titles, we identify by what we do, you know, but the best answer I ever heard a little kid give when, when they asked him, what do you want to be when you grow up? But the best answer I've ever heard is he said human. I want to be human. I want to be a human being. That's the best answer. I want to be fully aware of the fact of who I am as a person. You know, not what I do because when you, when you retire from ministry, what are you? You know, what are you? Because you have to be more than Pastor David. You have to be more than that. What are you? And so I've, I've for many years, I've tried to understand that I'm a person that I'm created in the image of God and I do certain things. And so man, you know, there are seasons in our lives when we may not be producing what we want to produce, or maybe we just haven't found ourselves yet. My dad used to say that just haven't found yourself. You haven't found what you're supposed to do yet. And when you find that, you'll be fulfilled in that aspect of your life. And he was right with me. You know, for me, my calling is when I found out who I am as a person, but I was a person before I found my calling. And I would think it's similar in some ways to women. Because if you ask a woman something about, and Marie should answer this, but if you ask a woman, well, I'm a wife, you know, I'm a mother, you know, that's what the first things they used to say. I'm a wife and mother. That was an honorable term. Now it's, oh, I'm a computer analyst or a lawyer or a banker, you know, and, and sometimes our ladies are forgetting, no, you're first a human being. And what you do is what you are. It's simply an aspect of your behavior. But what you are is much deeper than that. And I think that plays more into what submission looks like with the husband and wife, because when you determine who you are first versus what I do, because, and Marie, you know, from a woman's perspective, how can then submission be misinterpreted? How can it be misinterpreted? The word submission from a woman's perspective. Can it be misinterpreted? I think that the fact that I've heard many women say submission, the immediate word of submission to many women can be interpreted. I don't like it. I'm not, I'm not going to be submitted to anybody. And I've, I've heard women say that. So it's, it isn't anything new. Unfortunately, I am submitted to my husband. I don't have a problem with the word submission because it's a proper word that the Lord has placed my husband over me. And I am to be submitted to him in every way. And God has given him that authority. And I think sometimes some of these women don't want to take any, what would be the word, any, any guff? Orders from their husband, for any, from anybody actually, or even from their husbands, they want to be the ones that dominate the marriage. I think that we see that quite often. And I think that's a big problem in marriages. And sometimes, you know, women, you know, sometimes when you feel irritated or you're, where your husband may have irritated, sometimes the best thing you can do is buckle that mouth of yours. It really is true. And, and, and just let it go. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's talk marriage as a ministry of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley. If you've enjoyed this video, then please like and share it. We will see you again next week on another episode of Let's Talk Marriage.