 I am going to make someone else co-host so that I don't have to look at the waiting room anymore. There we go, Sarah. Now you're a co-host. Anyway, hello. I'm Mel Hauser. I use sheavey pronouns, and I am the executive director of All Brains Belong. Welcome to Brain Club. I'm going to share screen and get us all oriented. Today we'll be continuing our conversation about interdependence, interdependence at work. Brain Club, of course, is our community conversation about everyday brain life. I think there's some folks that might be your first Brain Club. Welcome. This is our education space for the broader collective ABB community to educate about neurodiversity and all kinds of topics related to inclusive community. We always say at the start that this is for education purposes only, this is not a support group, this is not medical or mental health advice. All forms of participation are okay. As many of you have figured out, you can have your video on or off. Even if it's on, we don't expect anything of you. We certainly don't need you to like look at the camera or sit still or anything. So feel free to fidget, stim, eat, all the things. And everyone's welcome. And all formats of communication are welcome. So you can unmute and use mouth words. You can type in the chat. You can, however you're comfortable communicating. And in addition to affirming all aspects of identity, it's really important to us to respect and protect the group's collective access needs. And we want to make sure that anything anyone needs to feel safe and comfortable is respected and protected. We do have direct messaging enabled. If you're uncomfortable for any reason, you can send a direct message to Lizzie, our education programs coordinator. Lizzie, can you wave or something? There you go. That's Lizzie. Yeah. Lizzie's going to see a direct message a lot sooner than I will when I'm in share screen mode. All right. I think we're all right. So before we get started, oh, time out. I clicked too hard and I skipped a bunch of slides. I just want to say that closed captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of Zoom, you can click either the live transcript closed captioning icon. Or if you don't see that, the more dot, dot, dot, and choose show subtitles or high subtitles have changed your mind. Okay. And announcement. Today, just a few hours ago, in fact, all brains belong launched a new project. This is a project that the the collective ABB Village has been working on for a year and a half. Oh, I just switched there in the wrong order. That's all. All right. So that's that's that's what closed captioning looks like. All right. Okay. And that's the chat window looks like that's my number. Now I'm opening it. Okay, great. So the project. So everything is connected to everything, improving the health care of autistic and ADHD adults, although the project really, I think applies to a much broader population. What we know is that autistic and ADHD adults in addition to a broader population of people experience multiple intertwined medical conditions. For example, hypermobility, mass cell dysfunction, migraine, POTS, dysautonomia, whole cluster, constellation of interrelated conditions. And unfortunately, the some of the standard medical management for some parts of that constellation make the other parts worse. It's like internal conflicting access needs. So, you know, for example, if someone has chronic pain, and they end up taking a muscle relaxant, but they also have an underlying connective tissue problem. And their, their, their tissue is like soft and stretchy. Well, turns out that muscle relaxant might make that worse. And if, in fact, they have a sleep disorder because that's part of the cluster, that muscle relaxant and the floppy tissue might make that worse, which then makes the heart problem worse. And it's all just very intertwined. And so with support from the organization on autism research and HRSA's grant on autism intervention research network for physical health, we launched a guide, an educational resource that was co-created with input from more than 100 autistic and ADHD folks from our community that has health information in both, you know, stories, videos, graphics, text, it has some strategies for how to communicate with primary care clinicians about the project. And there's a clinician guide that merges evidence based practice with lived experience from a whole lot of people. So anyway, that's the QR code. That's the website. We hope it's helpful and feel free to share it with anyone else who you think would be interested. And it's greatly ironic that today we're going to be talking about interdependent teams because there has been so much interdependent teamwork to make this project happen. Every month we talk about some aspect of employment. These are some of the past conversations. All of the archives are available on the Brain Club website. All the recordings are available for free. But we've not engaged interdependence and employment directly before. So I think this is going to be exciting. Well, we talk about a lot, of course, in these employment conversations, neuro-inclusive employment conversations, is that a lot of people end up in situations where they are the square peg being hammered to fit into the round hole. And what happens? You break the peg. That's why we have, you know, it's one of the many contributions to neurodivergent burnout, for example. And it's got to be a better way. So especially when we think about how disability is for the past 25 years, the World Health Organization has defined disability according to the social model of disability. It's not issues of the individual. It's about how many barriers to access there are from the environment that are thwarting the individual to be able to access and have full and meaningful participation in their lives. When we use the term access need, we're referring to anything that's required for meaningful and full participation. Everyone has access needs. People with all types of brains have access needs. It's just that there are people whose access needs are less likely to be met by defaults, defaults of society, defaults in healthcare, defaults in education, defaults in workplace. And so when we think about all that that goes on in workplace culture, routines, workflows, the way that things are done, when there's just one way to do the thing, anyone else whose brain does the thing differently is not going to feel included. They're going to feel othered. And so when I want to get to our interdependence conversation, but I do want to mention that there's so many elements of neuro inclusive employment. And when we, and this is just one of them, interdependent teamwork is just one of any number of things. There are all types of different access needs, physical, emotional, communication related, interpersonal, there's all kinds of access needs. And these all play out in all different kinds of ways in different kinds of environments. So what we're going to be talking about, and today's panel is part of our staff here at Albrightons Belong, Sierra Miller, nurse practitioner, Sara Wilkins, our community programs coordinator, and Lizzie Peratt, our education programs coordinator. We recorded a meeting yesterday, just like a routine staff meeting to launch this project. It was all the things Eve and we had a lot to do. And this was a like in real time to be able to reflect on access needs. And what are some of the barriers to having access needs met on a team? And so with that, David, take it away. This will be about 20 minutes long and we'll have the shot box going in the meantime. Okay, team. It's all the things project Eve. This is my list of things that have to be done in the next several hours. So in full transparency, I am having a lot of dissonance because I am not asking for help in appropriate ways. And there are barriers to me asking for help. Namely, there are barriers I made up. Number one, we work really hard not to inhabit and perpetuate urgency culture. And me being like, Hey, we're going to do that thing, do that thing, right now. Like, I want to not do that to other people. So I take it and I keep it. And I feel it like the urgency actually still happening. It's just contained here. I also like my impression management of like what people think of me plays out like all day long. I wonder, does anyone else experience that where like it's hard to ask for help because of like the stories that you're telling yourself about about it. What is all three of all three of us are not adding. Yeah, yeah. So like, even in a culture where like we like caught like cortically, like, my cortex knows that this is a team that I can ask for help, I am still not asking for help. Right. Because it's like it like lives. I think it lives in one's nervous system. And I think it's I think it's like a trauma response. So I think it's a trauma response that like dates back to childhood about like all the dysfunctional teams I have ever been part of or like all of the, you know, the like the feedback around like, you know, you're there's something about you functioning on a team that is like, not desirable, right, you still have that voice. At least I still have that voice in the back of my head always saying, Oh, well, if you ask for help, then people are going to think that you're not able to do it. And they're going to think that you're incompetent. And I think there's also at least for me, there tends to be a lot of Oh, well, if I ask for help, then maybe they won't do it the way that I want it. And I just do it myself anyway. And I think that's a really, I think that can be a really hard part about interdependence for at least my flavor of the brain where I like, I like things done the way that makes sense to me. And that's I mean, that's part of the hard part about collaboration and interdependence. Yeah, for me, my voice is I don't want to be a burden to others. And I don't want to put this on your plate that's already full. And I should be able to get enough spoons together for myself to figure it out and not be a burden. Yeah, or there's like the comparative thing, like other people would be able to do this, other people can figure this out. So what's going on with me that like, I'm struggling right now. And so it's really easy to just isolate in the struggle, even when you have a team of people that are safe and have shown you that they will show up and support you, it's still like you said, it's hard when, you know, all the way back to family of origin stuff, you know, trying to courtically override that trauma response is really hard. I also think, I mean, it's actually pretty new in the big scheme of things. Like, that I don't, I think this is like the first, like, this is the first interdependent team I've ever been part of, like I don't have any experience, like actually playing out. It's kind of like, do you remember that time on New Year's Eve, when we screwed up the link for our like, our event that was starting in 30 seconds? And like, I like never want to feel that again. And I never want to like, recreate that emotional experience, like for anybody. But yet at the same time at like, I look at my list, and it like kind of feels like that. And so I'm like, well, if I just hold on to that, and I like, keep it, it feels like, like I value so much our team, that if I have to choose between dividing and conquering, and like maintaining the integrity, like maintaining the team, like, I will choose, I will choose the team family every time, which is also kind of dysfunctional. Well, that's the part of working with a, with a team that you, I mean, actually like, but also just kind of like, working with a team where you really respect everybody. And when the, I mean, I think working in dysfunctional systems and knowing that this is something that I don't want to do, this is something that I hate doing that feels really horrible for me to do. It's really hard to put that on somebody else or to ask for help with that, because you know, it's an miserable task, you know, it's something that I mean, that's the reason that we delegate often is because it's something that we don't necessarily want to or is difficult for our brains to be able to do. Well, that's really interesting, right? Can we like, let's, let's stay with that idea. Because it's interesting that your brain says, I delegate when it's something that is hard for me. Like that makes sense. It's interesting that your brain does that because my brain doesn't do that. My brain says the thing that is hard for me, I will keep and I will suffer through and I will slog through it because I can't imagine being responsible for any of my team members feeling the way I feel about this task. That's what my brain says too. And I find that I will reach out to ask for help if it's like really going to severely break my brain, but I won't reach out if it's only going to break it a little bit. I think one of the helpful things about being in a team where, and I think Mel, you've been a really good job of this for our organization is very specifically asking people what basically like what their strengths are, what is easy for them to do, what they're able to do well, even if it's not easy and having that known to the rest of the team. So like I know that filling out forms and paperwork is something that I don't mind doing and I know other people on the team don't like doing that. So I'm fine taking that over. Whereas making a phone call is something that I really hate doing, but I know somebody else on the team doesn't mind that. So it feels easier to delegate knowing that even though that's something that's really hard for my brain, there might be something that's not as hard for somebody else's brain and it's okay to delegate, but you only know that if you ask. We have members of this team who don't hate making phone calls. That's new information to me. I think we have members of the team who it doesn't ruin their entire day to make the phone call. Fair. That's fair. Okay. Maybe not enjoy it, but doesn't I mean I think that like comes back to our like our first team retreat like a year ago when we like reflected on you know what are the things that like come really easy to you? What are the things that like will destroy your day? And it's interesting because what I remember about that and like we can go look at it, but like what I remember is when asking an open-ended way what are the things that destroy your day? It was actually kind of hard to answer that question when other people started giving examples and someone's like oh yeah me too that that that destroys my day it does. But like there's so many things that destroy my day. So I think there's and like I think that it comes down to like everything comes back to an awareness of access needs and like you don't know what your access needs are. You just know that your day has been destroyed and especially when you like have this narrative of like all the times your day has been destroyed and your your the story you tell yourself about that is that there's something wrong with you which is why the day was destroyed because you suck that also I think plays into this. I absolutely agree with that. I think that comes back to I can't remember if it was you, Lizzie or you, Sarah who talked about kind of the comparing to people in the in the oh other people are able to do this and get through their day and other people can whatever work a 12 hour shift why can't I do that other people are able to make a phone call and still go through the rest of their day why can't I do that. People are able to take a shower and like also work after that like but but then when you like build awareness like you know when you when you when you think about like the all the things project like through the lens of understanding you know the shower for example you know with the heat and the temperature and the gravity and the math cells and you know all of it like you're like oh like obviously that's why it costs an entire day's worth of energy to do that thing but like there's so many other things or you know like when Lizzie and I like Lizzie right we have so many examples where we like like things that break our brain we're aware like now I mean a year like a year into this we're aware of like there are certain patterns that break our brain because it involves shifting between two documents or shifting between two websites and so we have evolved this this strategy of like well well we don't do that we don't shift between two websites anymore and we've evolved these kind of workarounds that like one person's on one website and the other person's on the other and you know I don't know that a year ago I wouldn't have I don't think I would have thought of that. Yeah I think the first step is understanding you know what drains your battery and that's what all brains belong is helped me to do is to like really reflect on like what really is giving me dopamine and what is draining my battery here and it takes you know understanding that in an interdependent team like different people are going to have different areas that like you were saying Sierra like that are that are that are work for them or that drain their battery and understanding that like has a basis of you know how to function as a team and figuring out those workarounds so that hopefully the battery doesn't get as drained. Slowing down and giving yourself permission to ask and be okay if something drains your battery that you're not a bad person and there's there isn't something wrong with you that it's okay that your battery gets drained like that and to not heap shame on yourself is part of the process because like there's different buckets of shame so there's the shame of like there's something wrong with me that I need help so like I mean intellectually I think that for me is the easiest one to talk myself down from the other ones are much more subtle it's like well if I ask for help that means something else about me it's not that like I'm you know like so you know Sierra gave the example of like if I ask for help you know they'll think I'm incompetent like I know you won't think I'm incompetent because I actually don't think I'm incompetent like what I what I think you might think about me is that like I'm a micromanager and like I'm a tyrant or I'm a whatever like that that I actually think is possible depending on how I communicate what I need help with because like those are the messages like those are the ones like when I was when I was a little kid like I didn't get the messages of like you're incompetent like that was I mean there are people who like you know their parents set them down they tell them that and that super sucks and that stays in your nervous system I didn't get that one but I got the you're selfish you're self-absorbed um all that matters is you your way out of a highway so like anything that comes up that gets to those messages like that's what that those are my barriers like like I wonder if we can like think about are there any like common themes of buckets around the shame like the shame barriers to interdependence that we could talk about so I think part of bringing down the shame is like having somebody else to teach you like it's okay to like call someone up and be like hey can you just be on the phone with me while I'm doing this thing so my eyeballs don't fall out like that to me feels like one of the first steps is like seeing it modeled around you well I've learned about body doubling through all brains belong you know and and like Lizzie will call me and be like can you like just be on the phone with me because my eyeballs are gonna fall out if I try to do this by myself and I'm like sure yeah but like I wouldn't have thought to do that before you know and and this is the first interdependent safe team I've ever been on so like I feel okay to call Sarah and say hey my eyeballs are gonna fall out you know and I know Sarah is not gonna laugh at me or think less of me or anything you know the opposite like I actually like we've talked about this before where it's like I actually trust people more who are like this is hard for me I need help or I don't know the answer to this I'm trying to figure it out like that actually builds trust for me with other people so it's like the authenticity the vulnerability like engenders trust and yet it is still hard to ask for help like Lizzie you gave the example of like well if it's only gonna break my brain a little uh just stuff it in you know like it's only one like anyway so like what what is it about that despite having like cortical awareness that you belong to a team of like people who get it what for you what do you think what's the barrier I think it still comes back back to the to the voice in my head that says you're gonna be a burden if you ask too much right I don't want to be too much and those are the stories that I had I was too much right too much always too much yeah yeah yeah from childhood I'm too much yeah yeah you have to stuff it yeah and not be too much right because if you're if you're too much people won't like you yeah I think a big one for me is the like everybody else is already busy everybody else is already at their limit um and how to right how to how to how to ask for that help from people who um you know are already approaching burnout or really busy or busy with their kids or busy with their family or busy with work or whatever that looks like and with kind of urgency culture and with kind of over productivity culture I think it's it's really rare to find people who don't feel like they're busy and there isn't enough time in the day already right and so I think that goes back to that burden hold on I'm gonna I'm gonna let Gabe in and then like give them an out if they don't want to be part of this oh and the little thing it's gonna say are we recording hi Gabe do you want to be in the tail end of the brain club conversation otherwise can you leave and come back in two minutes what's happening we're finishing the brain club recording oh yeah for the um the interdependent oh I'm sorry no it's okay if you don't want to be you want to text me just text me I'll text you when it's done okay okay bye bye I don't want to leave that in anyway um um what else do we want to say the other thing that just I mean we'll see if we use this and like maybe maybe some kind of meta application of of this conversation around like so it's actually objectively true that I know I can't do all these things like I know that I did get organized to at least like operationalize what are all the things that have to get done I of course did it in a way that is very difficult for to be shared because it's on paper um I could like type it out and make it into checklist and in fact I think I will do that and then it might just be a matter of like I think what my brain would allow me to do would be to like to invite others to self select the tasks that would not break their brains because actually many of them are not they're not terrible tasks it's just that there's too many of them I like that system I think allowing people to to self select especially if you I mean I think at that point you need a team who's going to do that I'm going to be willing to help but I think that I think that that decreases the pressure of okay what are you having to do the kind of emotional and mental labor of okay what are the things that this person finds easy to do what can I assign to this person what are the things that this person finds easy to do and actually taking that off of your plate as well so people are like people are like in the trenches they don't maybe they don't even like belong to a team where people talk about this kind of thing like where do people start I think like what you like Lizzie and Sarah what you guys talked about about body doubling I think sometimes finding like that one person who maybe is also struggling or also like you've talked about like has a similar brain as you were struggles with similar things as you or whatever that looks like and doing asking for help in a way where you're kind of helping each other like doing bottling or body doubling or creating tasks or just talking through things together I think sometimes that can feel a little bit easier versus hey can you do this for me of hey can you help me do this together or can we work on this thing that we both have to do that's good advice I think when I think back up like previous workplaces that like the team dynamics were not like ours are like that is that's a strategy that I think I used a lot because it like on at on first blush it absolutely appears that quote everyone else can do the thing and then when you identify like literally anyone else who struggles to do the thing that has like a huge impact at least for me and then you like you know in real life like there's a whole lot of people leave a whole community of people who struggle to do the thing in isolation because you're not supposed you're not supposed to be able to do things in isolation all the time like that's the whole point about interdependence stop share screen mode there was I can share over you and shut that off I already go perfect thanks so I wonder I mean let's we can actually start with so Danny were so patient about about talking about imposter syndrome and how this plays out in terms of you know if you are in an environment where you and just you know if that expression and I think people define it differently how I experience imposter syndrome is around like I hope they don't find me out I hope they don't recognize how incompetent I am when you're like you're not but you think you are and you think that and you like you your mask is so intense to protect from being found out even though there's nothing to find out and I think that is so common and is is an independent barrier to asking for help I think for sure um has anyone else experienced that I wonder if there are other challenges in asking for help cooperating or collaborating with teams I think one problem that has been a big part of my working life though has to do when the team or the group of people who have to somehow together function and get things done doesn't really share objectives and I've worked for too many large bureaucracies and in a lot of large bureaucracies the hidden agenda is but the overwriting one is really very simple to sustain the bureaucracy maybe make it bigger but at least make sure that this year's budget gets spent and is seen by the people who provide it to be to have been spent well enough to provide more the following year if your access need is in an environment like that to try to see very clearly what the organization is doing or is thinking of doing and to have the grounds to have some kind of professional take on whether that makes sense or not professional the access need is to feel that you can these things are discussable but if what you're doing is proposing a discussion or maybe an outcome that is going to slow down the organization spending its money and getting more you don't get your access needs met and you can burn out and it can be very very hard you're talking about a very different environment where basically people are I mean their hearts are in the same place and their objectives are pretty much clearly the same but in so many work environments that just isn't true and I don't know quite what you do about that yes I wonder if anyone has found strategies for how to function in big systems that are oriented all around like perpetuation of the system not about the individuals in it because that's common I think sorry or sorry just quickly or about what it actually achieves I mean I've worked for organizations that basically they evaluate their own work and tell their funders what they think they want to hear but the outcome maybe it's not just what happens to the people inside who whose eyeballs fall out but it's also for the people that should be helping and doesn't because the the the sense of clarity and honesty and professionalism is overridden by the need to persevere that's that's what always used to bother me yeah David that's really it's it's it's you're speaking to so many different types of access needs there so the access need for meaning and purpose a lot of people have that access need so if the thing the machine the system is doing is not connected to an individual's sense of meaning and purpose that's an access need barrier your your your comments make me think about transparency and when there is a lack of transparency a lot of nervous systems have an involuntary automatic limbic response reaction to threat because if you don't know if you don't have the information that cues safety it feels unsafe to many nervous systems I think there's a lot a lot that goes in here Steve's there's in the chat a norm I always insisted on in my staff meetings be open to outcome not attached to outcome yeah and those cultural norms they they come from the top sarah says in terms of imposter syndrome yes for sure I think when there's a disconnect between your internal experience and the feedback you're being given about what you should be thinking or feeling in childhood that this feeds into imposter syndrome yeah could Steve say a bit more about what it means to be open to outcome but not attached outcome which sounds very interesting but just what how that works yeah I mean what happens I found was that if people are attached to outcomes whether it be in a negotiation or in a meeting the meeting becomes a battle of power and who can you know bully the other people into into their point of view if you're open to outcome you might go in with something in mind but if you lay it aside then you might be surprised at the at the good things that might happen you know by by laying aside your your interests for for a few minutes and and just seeing what happens I saw a lot of that going on in the video and I always thought it was it was a norm that I learned from the federal mediation and conciliation service and I I always made a bit of point to say this is something that I personally need to have in these meeting norms Steve it sounds like that's another aspect of access needs so stating these are norms that I need in a meeting um is so important and when someone is not in a leadership position and they also have access needs around how something might go in a meeting there's like different it's it and I think Steve's point about about power dynamics is really really important and maybe there might be some ways of articulating access needs that are don't become a battle of power that are more subtle I wonder if it's also sometimes like a failure of imagination I think our what what many members of our team and I think this was in the video even of like if you've not seen a healthy team you're not been part of a healthy team you don't like you don't you don't know you don't know what's possible you don't it's so when we think about norming processes or you know workplace culture um I think a lot of people who have only been in environments of unhealthy culture may not necessarily recognize that it's particularly unhealthy I don't know if anyone has any thoughts about that I don't know if this is pertinent this may sound strange but in the course of all this I went to a lot a lot of sort of interagency meetings where people would get together and talk about objections and so forth and they were almost and in those days almost entirely men who would do this and I had the occasion to go to one meeting I can't remember what it was about where the it was it was the people from the agencies involved who were mostly women and I was struck at the entirely different tone of that meeting if something came up in that meeting that represented a kind of a struggle of power it was as if a switch had been thrown and everybody was trying to figure out how to get around through this with in a way that was healing and resulted in in the kind of respect for the people to to be open to the outcome to create an outcome together rather than being attached to it and fighting over it and it was it was really interesting to have had that experience yeah I I think that um when when people have the experience of seeing functional team dynamics um you know there's often you know this huge huge contrast and if people are used to norms where that's not what's happening you know so the next go around meeting where there's our battles and you know whatever whether it relates to you know any kind of socialized norm or not I think um you know norms and norming process is really very interesting sarah says when leaders model interdependence and not power over it trickles down for sure you know and power over is is so it can be really like I don't know if the right word is insidious um I try to remember that individual powering over is often a reaction and involuntary automatic action like like it's a dysregulation move I see this in my child for example um when she's dysregulated um much more likely for for power over moves and I think that I think that's really common and so you know I think back to um you know I'm imagining you know an example like david gave where you have someone who like is motivated to you know get information have discussions about the bigger picture and the you know the target outcomes and um if you have someone else who is dysregulated because you know people aren't talking about access needs who even knows what else goes on in that system I think often what happens is you know when when we see a lot of patterns of like supervisor supervisey conflict um it's supervisey seeking to have an access need met and supervisor powers over um and it's that power dynamic that like leads to you know someone getting fired or someone getting you know transferred or someone you know getting marginalized in some way um but it's like zooming way out I think it's it's conflicting access needs a lot of the time and it's just that the person with more power maybe has their access need turns into policy or workflow or something yeah steve says um yeah conflicting communication styles um and your earlier comment um we often get thought of as inductive thinkers who get caught up in particulars that we can't see the bigger picture you know that's that's um that's a myth for many um I beg to differ we are big picture thinkers who can wade through the vast quantities of data and still not lose track of of important things yeah you know on uh on our on our instagram page I think I think maybe last week or the week before we had a post um from healthcare literature um looking at how primary care physicians um think about autistic people and uh the study of primary care physicians um while this is Zerbo et al from 2015 um within the Kaiser system um that primary care physicians were less were less likely only 10 percent of primary care physicians would suspect that their patient were autistic if they um expressed emotions showed interest in other people or could see the big picture these are the myths that are out there thanks Sarah a couple of weeks ago when we began our month-long theme on interdependence um you know we began with unlearning the myth of independence you know that the norm of independence being able to do things by yourself is is normed from early childhood for a lot of people um and so it's whether it begins with a family of origin is reinforced through schooling you know et cetera et cetera then you make it to the workplace and often you know there's also variables of competition and survival of powering over other people to get ahead and that for many people that's the cultural objective in the field or the system they're in there's all kinds of other barriers that I think did not come up in in this particular conversation but um I I think it I think it starts with like I think in a lot of places interdependence isn't even a goal it's like not even it's not even talked about when being connected to and relying other people is is so profoundly normal and I don't know I've only been an employer for a year and a half but I don't know like I would think that if even if I if I were concerned around you know outcome or output or whatever like that a functional team would perform better that's I don't know that's that's how I would see the world I'd love to create some space um for anyone that we haven't heard from yet who might might have anything to share about their experiences or the things they that are coming to mind hi Cynthia hi I have a little something that I was just kind of thinking about um I think my manager has come from a very fast pace kind of mindset and I was you know listening to your um kind of slow culture you know within the office trying to implement that myself and then I'm feeling like you know by like two in the afternoon my spoons are done I'm pretty much you know fried and I find kind of you know wrote my list you know things to do um that are still productive but it just helps me kind of you know chill out and then she came in and saw and she thought oh I'm so sorry that you have to do this and it's like it's like it's so menial and I you know I'm sure you're probably just like bored out of your mind and I said you don't know I said I'm just finding my zen happy place and I'm and she's like oh okay like it just didn't occur and also I I'm hoping that over time she'll see that that's still productive it's it I don't have to tell her that my brain is done um and maybe it'll seep into her nervous system but I just wanted to share that thank you for sharing that I mean that's such a great example of you know first off it's like you know we all out there were brains just because you know someone would be you know whatever um so there's there's there's that underlying process but you're really you're not getting into conflict you're reframing in a really subtle I mean the the term we use a lot around here is the oblique angle you know when you challenge people head on they often are much more likely to become dysregulated but you know the the oblique angle if not a direct challenge it's just you know naming the thing it for for in in in many instances like that that often helps people like strategically get get to a different place without getting into a battle a battle over you know worldview thanks for sharing Brain Club we've been working to create more more space for people to join join the um you know the conversation with more space and time you know because of a you know a variety of you know we all different brains with different communication related access needs my brain is does not feel time and so you know creating space I feel like I'm waiting like 10 minutes but I really I realize I haven't even been waiting a full minute so I'll keep I'll I'll keep creating space I actually have another question sure um in the video you mentioned something about um when the brain like what gives you dopamine and what drains your brain and and that you had that you were sharing um uh two separate screens and often it often I'm having to look at I mean I've said I have two big screens in front of me and then I have two things going on and they're switching back and forth and you're sliding the thing over and sliding the thing back and you've got like all these things going on and I thought well maybe this is like feeding my like the ADHD piece maybe this is like giving me the dopamine but is it actually draining like what like what's happening in the brain and what can you just explain to speak to that there's so much there so I think I'll begin by saying that absolutely big picture things that give a brain dopamine you know whether it's a topic of interest or movement or a good conversation or a thought or a food or like whatever um you something that that that gives you dopamine can also drain your cognitive reserves it's not like one or the other it can be both um so you know for example you know I like having meetings with people and co-id eating and then I crash afterwards because um I spent all my yeah exactly um force monitoring split yeah so so it's it's it's it's interest oh okay um I'm being reminded speaking of of meetings I'm being prompted to to shift to the next one but I would say that um when shifting between screens that is a really regardless of like what the you know complexity of the task is it's actually pretty involved to have your eyes have to track between things and like stop switch initiate stop switch initiate these are like complex executive functions so it's motor function the linear tracking um it's executive functioning of shifting stopping starting it's working memory like if I'm looking at screen a and it has you know a number and then I have to transfer it to the next screen or something I'm keeping it in my my ram of what I my working memory what I can keep in my brain um for 30 seconds to transfer sometimes there's like all these complex processes that may in fact be quite cognitively fatiguing but I think the um the best the the best advice I might have is to just like pay attention to when you're tired pay attention to when you're exhausted and think about what did I do today um and what did I do this week and like just to sort of collect collect some patterns like I don't think I um um I don't think I really would have known that this particular like type of task would be cognitive fatiguing until I like started collecting these these patterns yeah um and I think that um and and as Sarah saying flipping a script of like looking at what's not working so you don't necessarily know what your access need is but you can maybe identify when they're not being met because you feel bad um and I think this is a nice lead into next week's conversation next Tuesday overcoming internalized ableism which I think is a really important important part of this as we're recognizing what's hard and yeah so anyway thank you all so much for coming thanks for for being here and engaging in this conversation and we look forward to seeing you next week bye you're welcome bye