 Welcome back to the breakfast and plus TV Africa time for a second conversation. We'll be looking at the issue of deepening our democracy as we had vice president M.O.C. Banger and former president Lucia Guno Basundi on Monday talked about strengthening our democracy in Africa and This too made the call in a bureaucrat during the opening session of a two-day democracy conference held at the former president's Presidential Library. The conference organized by the Coalition for Dialogue on Africa was also attended by Hogan State Governor Dakbar Bioda former president Goodluck Jonathan and former Sierra Leone President and former and a professor Patatomy a resolution reached at the conference I expected to pass on to the economic community of West African state and political leaders across West Africa We'll have two analysts joining this conversation this morning Looking at the issue of deepening our democracy in Nigeria. Mohammed Adulahi is joining As a political analyst. It's good to have you join us this morning All right, good morning. Thank you for joining us all things being equal would also have Dr. McFarland edger join the conversation All right, thanks for joining us Mohammed Mohammed, thank you for having all right. Okay, much to go ahead All right. So, um, what are your thoughts on this our democracy looking at our democracy as it is What do you think we can do to deepen our democracy? Good morning. What's in Nigeria's? It's important that voter education We can't say Nigeria has a nice sense democracy anymore We've been practicing democracy for at least 20 years now. I'm not mistaken since 1999 Untrunkated so we have gone past the stage of Nascency, I think we are the stage of where we need to keep developing our democracy and It is important that we continue to educate Nigerians Concerned democracy particularly the importance of of voting and the importance of contributing to the development of our of our their country and that's why I said earlier that Education education education is important and I think the new The new bill passed by the National Assembly the electoral bill passed recently by the National Assembly has Has a lot to do but to contribute to the our democracy at the moment ranging from all fates sets of electionary From being a voter to be to contesting for elections and so on and so forth So what I will say that we need at the moment is we need to continue to educate people To continue to reorientate our minds Reorientate our people from the villages to the cities and From people people from all walks of life to understand the importance of democracy That is the best form of government as it were now for our country and that we need people to come out and Vote particularly for people of their choice Irrespective devoid of sentiments like religion tribe and so on All right, thank you Mohammed from your for your opening remarks. Let us bring in dr. Markville in Asia. Thanks for joining the conversation dr. Asia Yeah, so Mohammed has talked about him He has emphasized the place of you know voter education and the need for the electorate and you know to be You know since that and educated to be aware of what they really need to do You know come 2023 and he also said that the nation's democracy is not actually Nascence anymore that we've had uninterrupted and democracy since 1999 Be that as it may right now. Let's talk about the role of the political parties in the country, you know with lots of skirmishes here and there lots of you know Issues and internal wranglings. Would you really say that and political parties have actually, you know done so much You know in deepening this democracy that we talked about because a school of thought believes that you know Most of the political parties in Nigeria Similarly, you know bereft of them ideologies when it comes to, you know direction as far Where or how to go? Okay, thank you for having me I Think that the first problem is that our political parties are not ideologically big Okay, they see themselves as a platform just to select candidate to offer candidate for election Second the few persons see themselves as owners of the political party And so the members of the political parties are just there to make up numbers If this is the view which we have You see them operating the political parties as private entity for themselves and their own business And so whether the people understand why they are there or not, it does not matter They want at the end of the year they do a convention to fulfill all right Just and do that no interest collection of candidates based on one thing or the other Now the power of democracy Recites in a well-educated electorate and if that is done People would demand for accountability People would demand for transparency people would demand for effective governance And I believe the political party What they're doing is deliberately To disempower the people Ensure that I don't fooling them without understanding what they're doing And that's why they have weaponized hunger Now a hungry man doesn't seem to focus on any other thing Other than ensuring that this is confidential If the political parties are actually doing voter education in the proper sense of it would see a reduction in respected votes Because even ordinarily seen like some printing the party members themselves should know But we are not having it and during the political campaign field like this We expect that voter education should cross across everybody But that is not happening But I'm confident that with emerging issues amendments to the electoral law and people going on The people are beginning to take you know the update in your hand People society organizations are doing voter education political parties should join force with the callous cases where issues of Decamping and cross-carpetting things to be checked by the ongoing judgment We believe that if the Supreme Court finally makes a pronouncement The political parties hold themselves no other thing other than developing ideology And if they develop their ideologies, they will ensure that your voter base is properly educated And if that is all we see you know a plus to a growing democracy All right, dr. Macphal and edger let's let's still stay you know With the issue of the constitution At this point some people have said that you know the constitution is very fundamental In our democratic process. So the question from me to you now is Do you think that the Nigerian constitution promotes the fundamental ethos and principle of democracy? I will I will want to say This on what we have And the emerging development There will be need to review the constitution In its true sense of review Not selective review So now we begin to look at the cries of the people the emerging issues Let me give you one typical example Because we are not able to manage our identities from a positive direction You see the issue of zoning becoming a burning issue in your current issue during every election But if we have it clearly enshrined in the constitution In such a manner That it promotes inclusivity And ensuring that every geopolitical device Recognizing the heterogeneous nature of Nigeria As a sense of belonging We regard to Stepping a leadership position It will become an issue that the constitution is sensitive There are different cries that people have made a different area Which tends to make some people more Nigerian than they order The laws are made and its application is selective Let's have a constitution that guarantees nationhood Guarantees the right of everybody In its true sense regardless of where you come from Based on that knowledge you discover that the present constitution we have Needs to be reviewed carefully I don't think we are billions of information The 2014 constitution review Was a deliberate process to harvest information from different schools of thought And that document is still there We need to go back and look at it When people speak When the country holds the meeting resources are spent We should not be swept under the carpet So I think that there are several documents that if you put them together We will have the people sensitive and the people friendly constitution All right. Thank you. Dr. Aja back to you now Mohammed Abdullah, you know we are approaching 2023 and most times are Political parties and you know their candidates, you know, they would want to sell themselves are very Wonderful in the in the sight of the people So as to convince them to you know, give them, you know their mandate and you know So they can control the machinery of government But when we talk about democracy in Nigeria lots of things come to mind That's the sovereignty of the people talk about Government based on the consent of the people, you know and a lot of issues also guarantee of basic human rights You know 2023 is around the corner, you know So what should we be telling a lot electorate as we prepare to go to polls, you know There have been infractions when it comes to equality before the law and of course Government, you know following um due process and actually going by what The process of the law, you know, or the laws of the country have said So what should we be saying to the electorate right now as we as they, you know Faced with You know varieties of candidates who want to control the machinery of government Yeah, before I answer your question. Thank you for the question. Uh, let me quickly disagree with my Lenin the doctor We talked about Nigeria having to enshrine or to review our constitution To make sure that there is proper zoning of power I will beg to disagree that um the democracy will practice today From the developed clients like even the us and even the uk um There's nothing like zoning competency is the key word, you know There's nothing like the fact that uh south kensington has produced the president Then the prime minister, sorry, then uh Birmingham must produce the next prime minister. No, no, no I think what we should be championing is the fact that who is competent who is capable of delivering the dividend of democracy Who is capable of taking this country to the very next level that we all dream about but haven't said haven't said that um Let me also mention coming back to your question that um, what we should be telling the electorate at the moment is The fact that we should be guaranteeing the electorate that our vote counts That is first and foremost foremost It is very very important that when we tell people to go out and vote we can secure their lives We can ensure that womb and which party they are voting for is It is going to count at the end of the election and we can also ensure that There will be no any sort of manipulation of the will of the people This is very very important and that is why I for one i'm clamoring for You know electronic voting because I don't understand why at this stage in Nigeria after 62 years of independence Or almost 62 years of independence Even when we are we are conducting local government elections We have to register people dead people have to die for why for what reason so but when we go when when we are able to adopt Electoral and sorry electronic voting this will call to a so a certain extent if not minimize or reduce to to to zero The number of casualties that we record on election days is so Saddening that we were conducting election at this age in Nigeria at this jet age and we find people kill people here and there You know in the name of election So like I mentioned earlier first and foremost we must guarantee that our votes count We must guarantee that there is security of lives of voters. It is very important And we must also guarantee that we can also hold our Politicians to their promises, you know, let me let me let me give you an example Um Before this government came into power There were a whole lot of um campaigns promises here and there But after being voted into power the same government is telling us they didn't promise us that so so so will be so I don't want to mention things but because There is no blueprint to say okay. This is your campaign promises And this is what the electorate will be accountable for So it is very very important that we have all these processes in place like I mentioned People must be uh, safety of the people of the voters will be guaranteed and then voters Uh, the will of the voters must must not be supported Well, okay, so we'll bring in dr. Mark Fallon in no time, but I'm sure that you want to agree with me that uh election is just one step in a democratic process And so, you know, you have different issues that would you know, um Boost and you'll talk about enhancing a deepening or fixing our democracy as it were so Just the election is just one of it. There are too many other issues Dr. Mark Fallon on this particular one some persons have said that the issue of the financial incentive should be reduced Because if you look at the cost of governance It takes it all and some people are saying that these has constantly encouraged everyone to uh, you know want to, um Acquire or just a vie for the position political office in Nigeria because of you know Disincentive it needs to be reduced if you begin to look at the salaries and incentive of the senators juxtaposing that uh, you know with what The civil servant actually end, you know, you want to talk about the medical doctors You want to talk about other professionals in the society? Uh, it's not enough and with all of this um disparity Uh, some persons have said that there should be a reduction in disincentive Uh, that leadership should be more about, you know, the quality those who can be lead Those who can actually lead, uh, this should actually be the focal point I'd like to share your thoughts. Are you in support of the school of thought? All right, uh, quickly just before I answer that And let me just react to what my friend have said with regard to my issue of talking about zoning He said that our democracy is fashion after the united states of america That I agree But the united states of america have strong institutions It recognizes diversity and heterogeneous nature the nigerian democrat Is fashion after the united states of america but those operating it has very selected what makes them more powerful than the people And so the review must not be what we think. It must be what the people think Let's stop thinking about nigeria. Let's think which nigeria Okay, so back to issue of um What you said about the cost of families? Um, and I want to say today I'm one second who has emphatically said that No member of the national assembly Should end more than a federal feminine secretary For crying out loud What is it that they are doing that the federal feminine secretary is not doing? Because if you're going to the national assembly Let's akin it to a community meeting. We've had a meeting and somebody needs to represent us And the person is saying I offer myself to represent you That you offer yourself to represent us doesn't mean you mean cost So the amount of money being paid to them the conditions of service they allow us to Is a collective approach to our sensibilities and our integrity For god's sake people are struggling with a few hundreds of niras and they're ending in millions They don't even keep in touch with your consequences Now during election period you find them coming in that's when they are buying batch of salt buying rice Buying ticket buying a motorcycle and in vote now many bosses You come to the people only for years When it is election period you come in you're buying more tricycles to people. They are more tricycles than passengers You're not supporting the economic system Check the amount of money that they're earning check the number of people who are unemployed And I'm saying that that cost is On economical is repugnant to human sense of justice Compared to the way Nigerians are currently living Now if you reduce that And make somebody else like a federal feminist secretary Is entitled to miscarve And any other many other domestic car You see that those who go to the national assembly to serve the state assembly to serve Are actually going because they want to serve Not because they want to make money So a lot of people who are going into politics today are going because they want to milk You know the system they see that the only way they want to make money Politics is not the profession here. It should be like a vocation So you have somebody who has made it somebody who is willing to give back So I mean total support of you know reduction of allowances making their people specific If you do that you will have quality of people who are going to be there So Where people are coming to go in is an issue of you know finding themselves that they want to make money Dr. Maffelin quickly let's brush this issue and I'm I'm hoping that you know Abdullah he would also might also coming with time is the issue of violence in our elections And this has actually happened, you know prior to this time elections has been characterized by thugs and um, you know activity of violent people and Way back in history some have backdated that to the 1959 And you want to look at the uh, 1963 election? You want to just look at our elections? 2011 that's usually issue of violence. How do we solve all of this? Now if you the issue of violence in election Is because people are interested in acquisition of power How to save the people? But to put the people in the touch of location With the position of my friend Abdullah he where we have to we need to ensure that electronic voting is fully in operation Where the people vote will count So if you have a system that promotes Electro electronic voting And the process of voting is credible People vote counts And you can see somewhere and vote without you know They pulling people together How great is going to be reduced violence will be reduced Now the political system has consciously weaponized hunger And they increase things during the election period during the election year Making the people much more vulnerable They pull cash out of the system And so the people become weak A number of food soldiers are now employed And violence is promoted The violence we're facing today As regards of insecurity You can't separate things from How great which has been you know the underlying factor In our elections build up And so it doesn't call for Elections doesn't call for violence We don't need to share people's blood To get into position of authority All right, Mohamed Abdulaym So I'm sure you also want to cheap in concerning Electro violence And of course of other things we need to do to deepen our democracy A vis-a-vis due process of law And guarantee of basic human rights Yeah, definitely The first and foremost Thing we need to put in place Like Doctor has continued to mention Is to reduce the incentive to political office It's very funny that You know Politics here is a kind of profession And I agree totally with the doctor who says It should be more like a vocation Something like a pastime You don't tell me that somebody goes to the national assembly Seat three times weekly In fact, those three times that they are seated It's not composite Some of them go out of the country For two, three months without even sitting once In a month But the end's jumbo pay in millions You know the color or the contract and so on and so forth So the incentive is way way above board We need to reduce the incentive to political office There is no way a professor in Nigeria University Who has earned his or her strides For at least 20 to 25 years You know, teaching and developing capacity Will be earning less than 1000 US dollars That is about 455 to 500,000 a day in Nigeria And a politician who probably does not have more than a school set Will be earning in millions In tens of millions That is not justice at all We need to reduce the incentive to a certain Certain to a level way way beyond what it is now That is one Then secondly, like I mentioned in my earlier statement Electronic voting You reduce a whole lot of human contact with the system In fact, as I'm speaking with you I am in my room, I am voting You are in your room, you are voting Probably you are in your toilet, I'm sorry You are voting So nobody sees you Nobody understand what you are seeing What you are doing You just punch one, two, three, voting And you are voting And it is collected electronically So nobody knows So that reduces the, you know The chances of violence The chances of thuggery The chances of not snatching The chances of people not being able to see Where and why collecting things manually You know, at this age So I think these two things if well implemented And then lastly, I will mention accountability Is very important The way our country and our system is designed We don't hold our leaders accountable In fact, I was reading a story recently Which was very despicable Somebody, a top ranking official Probably who stole about 70 million And the court is asking that same individual To return less than probably 4-5 million And that person is set free How do you, how do you in a country Like that, you know Are you not encouraging people to go and steal If I can steal 100 million And go back and give the government maybe 5 million Then I can do I can make do with the 95 million That is not how to run the country So we need, you know Like I mentioned, reduce the incentive Ensure electronic voting in our future election And then accountability and justice Okay, but just quickly We're costing it down now Dr. Mark Faland We're talking about, you know The election as well Getting close to 2023 It feels like every election year Or usually you have to have High-teen security concerns Some persons are already wondering Could this be part of the scheme And let's also not forget in 2019 You had the Minister for Culture And Information Line, Mohammed Accusing the opposition party of Trying to cost mayhem Or responsible for all of the security concerns You also remember Just not recently Like last year Professor Jaggar Talking about the fact that With the insecurity issue And the country of care is not taken We probably might not have the 2023 elections What are your thoughts on this? Why is this happening? Every election time Security concerns are usually on the high Now I hold that politicians Completely accountable For the increasing insecurity During election year Election related insecurity The politicians should be answerable to Nigeria Now, security is in the hands of the people When the people are comfortable in the process And believe in the process They'll take security in their own hands The politicians don't go into process To cross the problem They recruit people They get their followers A town or a lowly place special Will be ready to disrupt an electoral process Just because he is offered to be a ticket boy In a motor park somewhere Where he collects tickets And pays a certain amount of money To either the local government or state government So if he makes like 10 naira And he's paying 2 naira The boy now will disrupt the electoral process In favor of the person who is going to give him tickets To do handouts back Regardless of whether the person is qualified or not And so when you find this kind of thing Because of the property-stricken nature of the people The politicians are taken advantage of it And so we need to hold them accountable I will be a practical example That the people can take decisions And the election can be crisis-free The unambra election that just finished INET came up and the whole country Given the insecurity in the southeast Everybody we were concerned and worried about the election But when the people got up The community got up The leadership of that area got up And spoke Everybody took security into their own hands It's a record that they went out The election was done And it was peaceful So why the politicians will not want crises to reduce I want the electorate I want the community leaders To take ownership of security Call the people and discuss with them that You don't need to be used They're now with the perpetrative violence To bring his own children This should be at the forefront All right, thank you so much, Dr. Eja That's as much as we can take We must say a very big thank you for All of your imputes this morning We've been looking at them deepening the nation's democracy And we were joined by Dr. Macfarlane Eja political analyst All the way from Cross River State And of course, Mohamed Abulay Public Affairs Analyst joined us here from Lagos Thank you so much, gentlemen All right, thank you All right, it's still the breakfast on Klaus TV Africa We'll take a quick break Where we'll come back We'll try and understand what exactly happened With a Buja Kaduna train In the incident yesterday And of course, we'll be looking at more insight And of course, a profile More solutions in a moment To join us again