 Felly, ddweud. Yn dyfodd awsiau yn gwybodaeth i gyd yn y ffugor yw yw... ..dwyfodd awsiau yn gwybodaeth. Oeddiwch chi'n gwybodaeth, mae'n gwybodaeth yn ymweld ychydig... ..yna gwybodaeth i ddweud yn gweithio... ..yna gwybodaeth hynny. Felly, y fawr dyfodd awsiau yn gwybodaeth... ..yna gwybodaeth i gyd yn gwybodaeth. Yna gwybodaeth, gallwch chi'n gweithio... I below is a 기 became spaces that encouraged design thinking and how we can all unite together. Open source simply put these designers, and this isn't me just saying it because I'm the designer. It truly does need design to be at the very heart of the project. And design when I say it like this isn't just a role either. I'm gonna kind of get to that in this story. Ac mae gennym ni cofnodd rydyn ni i ddweud y gweithio i gyd. Y gweithio gweithio ac yn y cyfnodd cyfnodd, mae'n arddangos o projecau cyfnod. Mae'r gweithio yr cwestiynau i ddweud y gweithio i gyd wedi bod y gweithio iaith i ddweud y cyfnodd. Mae'r gweld yn gwneud ar y projec a'r gweithio i gweithio. Mae y gweithio i gael o'r holl. Rydym yn ei gael i'r cymryd yng Nghymru, yn cymryd, yn ddorol a'r ffordd ar y peth erbydd. Rhyw gydweithio'r cyfryd, ac mae rhaid o'r holl fydden nhw'n ddim mae'n gweithio ar y gyrthio. Mae'n ffrifau'r cyffredig yn ôl. Rhyw fod yn dechrau'r cyfryd, rhaid o'r holl fydden nhw. Mae'n gweithio'r cyffredig yn gweithio ar y gyrthio. mae'n methu o'r cyfle o fawr o'r mfawr o'r ffont yn rhoi gweithio hwnnw. Yn dweud yw yw'r cynnig o'r pallolaeth yn reilio'r cofusio. Y dweud yw'r gweithio bryd yn dylwg i'r progett i gweithio'n enhygiadau. Mae ganddoedd yn spadyn i'r llyfr y MGTG yna yma y dweud. Bydd yna'r cymwyn i gynnwys yma yn olygion. A chwechwch i'r ddyliad blaenbau Ion iawn i'n ddyrchon a wnaeth o'r ddyliad ar ôl i'r arferaeth i'r ddyliau'r gymuned. Rhyw hwyl ochr eisdo i ddigonio o ddwyllprinigion. Rhyw hwnna o mynd i'r ffordd diolch i'r ddwyllprinigion Ion ffordd i'r ddyliad, ond investigation i'r ddylch yn bachod wideron. Rhyw hwnna o mynd i'r ddylch yn budgeisio ddyliad. Dao wedi gweld yn yr ysgol er fydd. I've said the word designer quite a few times. Open source often attracts hybrids, and this is actually something we should embrace and we should encourage. You could say WordPress itself is built on this principle. We also often expect wrongly, in some cases, a high technical ability from our designers. So this is all about finding balance between this. Being open to blurring and hybrids, but being open to anyone that wants to specialise or wants to perfect in a particular field. Because yes, most will identify with one more or the other, but as a project we have to level up design beyond just one role. And we have to be careful of dismissing opinion, but also respectful of those that are making this their career path. There is a problem though. Being a designer, as I said, if I'm honest, an open source today isn't easy, and I say this from my heart. It's hard working in the open. Every single person has an opinion, and every single person has a very loud design opinion. Oksyn designers on the front line, and designers as a result, they feel both good and bad directly. We create from a heart, and because we do that and we train in empathy, at times being an open source project, it's far from nurturing or recharging for us as an experience. Those people tidiously working can feel themselves drained, reduced, in some cases, pixel and of polishers and pushers around, and that's no way to treat a designer. The design voice is often, unless space is given, quieter. And often in open source projects, it's far from quiet. My journey in open source, like many designers, hasn't been easy. There's been ups and downs. I've worked as a contributor in my own time whilst around my own business, and recently, before my recent role, I've balanced being a contributor with working full-time. It's only been the past few years that I've got to really be donated full-time back to the project. It's a long journey, and right now, only a handful of single-digit designers are able to be donated full-time to the project. If you compare that or balance that with developers and other roles that are donated back to the project, it really doesn't balance out. But I don't want to sound bleak, but every single designer in this project will have at some point thought, is it worth it? Because the fact is it's not easy, and it's often harder than it should be. Don't get me wrong, contributing is a hard process for every single person that does it, and that probably extends to other roles in fact it does. But there's that layer that is sometimes oppressive for a designer. You're working in a system, a maze, that's really designed to be solved by a developer. Nothing seems to fit when you're trying to work. The feedback fire hose, that's easy to drown out any form of creativity that you have, and meet your own design voice. When everyone has an opinion, space for yours seems really, really hard to find. Even the lead developer notion that we use, and it's a constant of our project, that's broken for designers. Exclusion means everywhere, and anyone wanting to actually level up in this role sees that. We need to change that, and I feel that we are changing that, and that's part of what I want to discuss today. But there are times it's incredible, so I don't want to paint it completely as negative. There are times when it's amazing. The fact your work can be in a product so wildly used is thrilling. That first time you see your design work live on someone's site from far back in a cafe, that moment. Or that time you hear someone who's saying that they changed their life because of something that you made in WordPress. That's really incredible. Every little one of these successes adds up. The little ones, the first commit, the first names recognition, the first time you're asked for your own opinion as a designer in Cawchart, that's a big one for any designer. That time you became a team rep, or that time you design led a project, every single little success adds up and keeps you within the project. And as I said, open source matters for design outside of WordPress as well, because closed systems available only to those that have money, that's not good for design. And by its very nature, the true concept of open source works for design. Many companies are recognising this and WordPress has a long history of enabling people, no matter what level the designers to join and learn and level up for contributions. And it's not just designers we do this with, people have come to the project, learned the skill and then been able to make a career out of it. And experienced designers also gain through contribution, takes them out of their space, shows them a world and exposes them to really exciting things. The problem though with most projects is they attract the same people. This also can go beyond countries to accessibility and diversity as well. Even a project that attracts designers does not mean that it has this solve at all. Maybe it's just actually attracting one particular type of designers. This still is not good. And it's a challenge, but it's one incredibly worth pursuing. By having a wide range of really different designers, you end up with a rich deep pool to create from. And this can only be a good thing for the project. If we truly want inclusive design, we actually need designers of all types. The sheer cost of access to design products often actually rules that out for designers. And open source can change this through the tools that we have. Recently we've, within WordPress, had access to an envision licence and things like this for the design team really changed the way that we can start giving people these tools to work with. If only a handful that a privilege work on WordPress, then we actually design with bias and that's not a healthy project. So I don't know if you've heard this word design infusion but design infusion is about making everyone in the project aware and activated on design. And whilst this notion of design infusion is something people say a lot, I actually tend to think of it as design activation because to me infusion is a little bit passive. I drink a lot of tea so I think about the tea bag. It doesn't really do much, it just infuses. So activation is when actually action happens. It's actually doing something about it. And how does this help? Well, it means your scarce resource of design spends the spreads far greater. It means that those designers get to focus on the important work and don't have to focus on being and doing everything. This is particularly important for developers as they can actually guide their own work. If you design activate a developer, you really enable them to not be just checking in constantly with designers, you get them to be able to make these decisions. And I'm not saying to remove designers completely, just to make sure I haven't gone too far over there. What I'm saying is it's about protecting and using the valuable resource that we have. A design-activated community runs deeper than just the roles that I'm communicating. It's empathic with experience at its real core. And the voice of the users shout across from every single corner of the project. Design-activated developers, I actually think of the future and the kind of the first thing we need to do. Designers are often, as I said, in this project, the scarce commodity. And that becomes a problem when we force them to be doing everything. When we do this to developers with design, some of that burden gets spread and developers become empowered. When I'm saying they're just not handing over that work and that conversation starts to happen and that's incredibly important. Ideas generate and this incredible workflow across between both roles starts to happen. And then other roles join in and you get this great big design conversation that's not just limited to a tiny role of designers. This truly is where exciting things can happen in a community. And where a good first pass can be made in patches once the developer activates with design. This saves time. Issues can be iterated by expressing in design. When you express it visually, conversation is very easy across different countries as well. And I've seen this happen with Gutenberg. I've been lucky to see many examples where developers have suggested something, explored, experimented, had that freedom and then designers have worked with them. And similarly, designers, if they wanted to, remember we shouldn't force everyone to do anything they don't want to, such as designers being technical, they've explored within code and that fluidity of roles has given that space to freely experiment and it's important to nurture and grow as a community. I hope you'll show me why we need to do this, but how do you create a space that matters? How do you enable design to be at the heart of an open source project? We start simply and build up and making it sound very easy. Respect is a cornerstone of this and that's going to sound a little bit obvious at first thing in the morning. But we want to care about everyone, right? We want everyone to feel that they belong in the project and that comes with respect. We have to, though, recognise that different types of people, those that focus on different roles, for example, or those that are different culturally, may need a different kind of space. And ultimately any space that is caring will be better for anyone. But we have to recognise what is caring for each role and each person and each type of human and then encourage it. And this needs designers from a design perspective to be heard, to speak up and be allowed to lead. The idea of archaeology is something I think we forget in this project. What do I mean by that? Well, I actually was searching before you suggest something. Before you suggest something, it's archaeology time. I can make it sound very corny, but that's kind of what I think about whenever I'm coming to something like a track ticket or I'm coming to something like a GitHub issue. I want to know the context of this before I comment on this because then I'm going to be able to comment better. So before you suggest something, if something's midway or being worked on, investigate. And see this as an exciting part of your process. If you really want to move a project on, actually research if it's been suggested before, this amazing idea that you have that's burning in your brain. And this goes even more for a project deeper into its lifecycle. It's likely come up before and absolutely you might have the key to unlocking something that's been stuck for a very long time. But you also might have the key for something completely different. And knowing and adding that context means that you can give that answer and that comment in the right context and really move the project forward. So I've said it before, but experimentation is probably the hardest thing to do because it requires giving space and a lot of trust and that respect again to do this. But it's the biggest thing that we can do is creating a safe space for that within our community. And this is from allowing experimentation through to just giving space for ideas to just happen. Those what is, those kind of ideas that seem that they're not going to be implemented. Just see how far they go. This is how boundaries are pushed and the really incredible work happens within our community. And don't worry about waiting until it's fully formed. If you think you've waited long to show something, you absolutely have. And if you don't think it, you absolutely have waited too long before you show something. Getting those ideas out, allowing people to have that respect to show early it's really, really important. And not judging, just being open to that work as well. If you have that, this kind of culture of feedback which I'm going to discuss in a minute, we have that freedom to do that. And these ideas are going to shoot and thrive from that. Another really simple thing you can start doing even today is visualise everything. And I'm talking about not just adding screenshots to poor requests or issues. We use a lot of words in our project and we use a lot of words for a multicultural project as well. So if we just start communicating a little bit more visually, we can avoid some of this as well. Designers are amazing. We are incredible. We're also really calm about what we say ego-wise. But we are not my readers. And none of us are. Beyond this, don't really stick to words to describe something. If you're stuck and you're having an endless conversation loop, hands up who's had one of those where you're just all talking in words to each other and no one's understanding what you're trying to say. That's most of the room at this point. If you start to just visualise that, draw, sketch, you might think that you can't draw, but I've got news, every single person in this room can do some form of drawing. It could be shapes, it could be cutting out and pacing things together and drawing lines over it. It doesn't matter. Communicating visually means you can get beyond that kind of word ping pong that you'll be going through. And all voices really need to be heard. I said this a few times, but it's so important. Goes to that culture of feedback that I alluded to that needs to be cultivated. Space should be created and the community shouldn't be just focusing on who is shouting the loudest. And I think we do that sometimes. Feedback needs to be learned. It's actually an art that should be practised by everyone in the community. It's a skill that we all need to learn and we all need to really, really practise daily. A community's ability to give feedback or not is really a good indication of its health. And when a healthy feedback culture exists, every single voice flourishes and is heard. And what I mean by this is not that there's positive unicorns and bunnies moving and happy flowers everywhere feedback. A good feedback culture gives critical feedback, gives feedback that can be actioned, doesn't just say everything is sunshine and amazing, actually moves on. Feedback that is just purely positive is pretty much as bad as feedback that is just dismissive. Respect when you do this starts to flow for the community and that cornerstone is established. So we expect also designers to do a lot of roles and we have this really scarce resource. And this goes for anyone that is a leader in our project at the moment. Just like designers, they are scarce and this is really a wrong way and approach to do this to people. We need to create a community and tools where designers can thrive. I have myself felt this, self and outside pressure to do all the things. I think anyone within Wordpress has felt that. We feel that we should be everything we can be and give everything of ourselves to the project. But we have to change this and we can't just, with regards to design, and we shouldn't just teleport a loaded designer in and say that's done because that doesn't really solve anything. Numbers don't solve anything. This is a community and a project change. Part of the answer is that design activation. But the other part is recognition. A lot of the work designers and other roles do is invisible. And that has to change. As a project, we need to make visible all the work that at the moment is just happening and we're accepting that's happened and you probably don't even know that happens and really recognize that. Because a good community for design is actually a good community for everybody. I don't say this casually because it's important to know. And what do I mean by that? Because that's quite a big statement, right? We often, the very things that designers thrive in mean that anyone is going to thrive in. A community needs to give space for voices. How do you actually start by having this good community? Well, there are a few ways and I'd like to share those. At the moment, we have a design team and that's a start and that's one that we have only, if you think about the length of the project it's been quite a long time for WordPress and it's something that we've only had really strongly for a few years. Designers need to be in all areas in United supporting each other in those. Recently, the design meeting changed to try and include more people from different time zones. And the Japanese design community now have added their notes to the weekly posts. That's a really great thing, they're having their own meeting and their own language and then adding their notes. And all of this really adds up to being more open for everyone. These delicate small little steps are really, really important to the culture of the project. Now, this is a binary view as many of the people blur amazingly into different roles but this is all those identified as designers in the last point release. Since someone like you doing something high up in WordPress actually matters. I will note there are several people that fall into model with different roles and also into different roles that I haven't highlighted like support and editorial. Again, these need more people as well. Shouldn't just have one person representing one big type of role within the community. But designers haven't always had this either. With the most recent involvement of having designers co-leading releases we've started to get representation a little bit more. And even more so now with focused design needs from Gutenberg. Those in the project are starting to see a place they can aim for if they want. And again, it's important to note that we shouldn't create a system that forces everyone to get anywhere by becoming a design lead. You can actually contribute in any way. Many don't do want to progress and even just seeing someone design leading and actually being a designer doing that is recognition enough that means they will come to the project and they will stay. Giving that opportunity is key. Designers in fact any role actually need to be onboarded into this project. My mind hurts a little bit thinking about if I came to WordPress today how much I would have to understand all the context and the nuances I would have to get my brain around to really function in this project it's a lot. You can't just land someone into this vast universe of an open source project and expect them to survive. This is something we're trying to fix as a design team and actually across the whole project there's movement to try and change this. It's important though to note that onboarding also has to adapt across different countries. If you only have your onboarding targeted at a type of person remember we're going to track that type of person. We want to be able to have that openness and different voices within our project. Onboarding also should adapt and be iterated. It shouldn't be frozen. Onboarding is not a checkbox we go I've done onboarding and done now. Never have to look at onboarding again. As designers we think of this user journey we should be thinking of the contribution journey and contribution needs to be seen as a product. With that really the community can start thinking about the ways to fix and create the best contribution product that we can. A mentoring also is something that is I firmly believe is crucial for any type of contributor. Often this is done casually one-on-ones but I think it should be done in more organised programs within the community. And I think it's done in certain teams but we should be doing it across the whole project. This goes beyond just onboarding and can answer a lot of the time zones and diversity because it's more one-on-one and more supportive in that way. Mentoring is something I personally really do want to see more of here. And it's also an amazing thing. If you haven't mentored do you know it's a two-way experience? So anytime that I've been lucky enough to be involved in mentoring someone I've also learnt a lot myself. So this one is interesting to say because we do have a design team but I think that's a starting point not an end. And in many respects often because we have a design team it becomes isolated from the other roles. And design needs to be truly in all areas and that activation across the whole project needs to happen by having designers involved. You can't activate an area that has no exposure to the designers that just doesn't really work. And it's not a bad thing having a design team at all. It's amazing that we have that but it's bad if it becomes a walled space where designers huddle together and don't explore from. And that is generally a sign that you haven't got a healthy space if designers are just huddling in one corner together. It's not necessarily saying they feel safe to go anywhere. Creating safe paths and bridges and empowering designers to really go off and choose their own adventure across the entire project that is where success comes for us. So in this last kind of part of my talk I want to really talk about the future and how we go forward I think will show as a project where the design truly is at our harm. It also shows the project is left to be dominated purely by developers. And while some might be okay with that I don't actually think that would be a good thing at all. There are designers starting to thrive in the project and more designers are starting to see it as a potential way to contribute. The time is right to build on this. Tools are really, really important. Our tools we use in GitHub are better but they don't actually recognise designers and they don't really work. And whilst we can wave a magic wand and make all everything kind of better today in our tooling we had to invest not just in Workplace as a project but in our tools. In seeing how designers and developers actually any role can be enabled to do the awesome work they need. As a project we need better recognition from non-cold contributions. And at the moment it's just too fragmented. It's really difficult. You have to get all these silence, you have to kind of do all these connections to be able to function. So this is some GitLab and it's a start but it's a very exciting start for me because it means that not just code is recognised and that's really important. If we're counting contributions by lines of code what does that say about us as a project? Our tools need to be inclusive and GitHub actually has some really bad not inclusive features like negative emoji reactions for example. These can be used to suppress voices and they can actually be an instrument for bullying in a project. If you come to a project you're new and you're commenting on design and someone does that on your comment what is that as an experience for you? You might not agree with that but not actually commenting to them and just giving them a thumbs down emoji is not a great way as a project to progress. We really need to focus on creating workflows that nurture and allow any role to thrive. And one of the things I'm sure we're going to need sooner or later that's a term that comes up time and time again it's come up in community conversations it's come up in word count talks it's come up and it's really happening with things like Gutenberg. We can't go on as a project without a single source of truth. We need to audit what we have from code and design and then look at solving the problem of whatever a design system means for us. And I say that because as a project we need to determine what it means and adapt. Patterns really are the key here and Gutenberg has unlocked some of that with the components. We need to turn that key and walk through the door together as a project. Because along with that and setting some guidelines and more consistent expected experience across WordPress is good for the entire project. A system allows a scarce resource of designers to be treated in respect. And they don't have to invent everything everyone gains and iteration can happen on the components themselves. So design truly I feel does matter in open source it matters now and it matters in the future. It can't just be ignored or thought of as the same as development and assume that it's okay. We need to create a space for designers to thrive and this isn't going to be a project just for developers. Let's all kind of hopefully agree that. Let's finally refer to WordPress in a comment. Try not to say WordPress developers. I see that pretty much every hour or every day within this project on posts and comments. There's not only developers involved in this project. There's not only developers involved working on core. Designers in other worlds need recognition and nurturing. And then we get to keep them more within this project and that's a great thing for the project. We need all different types of designers as well and not force designers to be everything. Allow a designer to specialize. Allow designers to be in from different countries. Welcome any designers because we get stronger as a project by doing that. And if we do this, we truly can thrive together and achieve that goal of democratising publishing. Otherwise we're just developing publishing and putting colours and icons on it. So thank you. I think I have time for some questions. I have some time for questions. If anyone's got any questions. A, I'm going to open it. If you want to ask questions about Gutenberg, I'm also happy to. Generally I don't think there is a resistance if you speak openly about it. I think it's not knowing it's the biggest resistance, if that makes sense. And I'd seen that was in Gutenberg having designers working with developers, there's not been a resistance, it's just worked. And some incredible works happened because of that. And it's that kind of exposure. That's why activation I think is really part of it that way. I think it's not a different change in mind if you just have a communication and talking. I think it's quite difficult if you are a developer that has only worked in developer teams and not, even in companies sometimes, we silo different roles in companies and that's not great. And I think on a company level, in agencies or infrastructure, a lot of people are starting to realise that's not the best model anyway. These diverse teams of roles actually produce better work. It feels like a really ABC thing when you start thinking about it, but we didn't used to do that. And there was almost like different flaws, wasn't it, that's like developer flaw. And then there was this. By using words like engineer, I think we start opening up the term developer a little bit more because there's all those kind of conversations happening as well. So I think it's just having that conversation. Resistance is purely that, right? Like just talking. Any other questions? Everyone obviously needs coffee. We are on experience then. So adopting those ideas, are you seeing new people brought into the group or is this all within the existing word best group that are already very familiar with each other? Yeah, a couple of years ago, the design team was just one or two of us talking to each other in the design channel, which was adorable, but not really a way to have a design team conversation. The design team for WordPress has kind of gone like this. It's had quite a lot of people, then it's had a lot of more people. And we're definitely going up now with the amount of people. We have an amazing collection of team reps. We have weekly meetings. We even at one point stopped having weekly meetings because there just wasn't enough people to have weekly meetings. And that's not a very good sign. So I'd say by doing this, and we haven't done all of this at all, because I say we, because I'm talking about my idea specifically here and my idea is alone on what should be implemented. It's what the collective of people who are focusing on the team reps. That's what should be implemented. This is a very personal talk. But some of the ideas I would love to be added, but I'm sure that there are other people who have different ideas. And that's about being open to this. There could be someone that turns up next this week in the design team chat that has the secret to Gutenberg phase 20, right? That is the future lead. There could be someone here that comes to the contribution day tomorrow that is a future design lead. There's all of that potential and being open to that is the biggest thing I think that we can do and by being open to that, we are having more designers. We are having design at contribution day. So I didn't, that kind of fizzled out a little bit and that started to happen more as well. It's not an instant fix because it needs to be a conversation had by everybody involved in the project. And it's a difficult balance, but it's starting to, I'd say it's starting to happen, which is so exciting for me. That's kind of what I want out of WordPress and what I want out of any projects I work with is to just have that space that people can try to do what they want. So seeing someone come and then thrive and be able to do the work, that's like the biggest happy to me. If there's people in the room who are interested in getting involved in those sorts of things, what advice would you give them to get them started? So if you're around, I would say come to the contribution day tomorrow. The main reason is it's just a great way to just in one day level up really into it, like immersive experience. If you can't do that, then go to make.wordpress.org. I'm trying to remember who I was this time. I've only had one cup of tea, so that was very difficult for me. And just read the descriptions of the teams. The reason that I say that is you can start to learn where you think you'd want to contribute and start then following through the links there to read the blogs of the teams. Each team has a specific blog. And just start discovering. You can join chat.wordpress.org. You can also, the UK community has a Slack, which if you don't feel quite ready to go fully into the bigger wider open source project, just coming and joining that community is quite good for you. If you are local to the area, there's, I don't know, do you know when the Manchester meet-up is? There you go. So the third Wednesday of every month, there's actually a meet-up here. So a meet-up is like a little, little, little word camp in an evening, kind of. And you'll be able to hear some talks, I think it's great to me. They have different formats, so I was just checking whether there were talks here. And just be able to come and have like a meet-up conversation. I don't know if you've done like design or develop or any other type of meet-ups, but they're really, really great for you to just come over an evening and just network as well. So there's a lot of different ways that you can start joining. But just kind of choosing your path. I would say start by listening. It's going to be a lot when you first come into any project. Just start kind of finding a way, talk. I'm going to be here the whole day. I'm happy to talk. So just come and say hi and I'm happy to find, you know, kind of how you can kind of get involved as well. How do you explain to people that when you're saying designer, you don't mean the person who does the print? Do you mean people who are actually handling the user experience and keep it in their place? Yeah. I think that's not a conversation you can say in a sentence, which is an interesting way. I don't really speak for my own personal experience because I'm not someone you want to make things pretty and necessary. I mean, I can, but my background is purely and is firmly an experience. And that, I think, is a good starting point. I do use sometimes the real world examples of the things that you use, the products are designed, the buildings that you live in, the towns that you function in. That tends to get people stopping thinking about the putting pixel little icons and start thinking about that everything they experience has been designed by someone. And that's kind of like, once you open that door for people thinking about experience, then design opens up as a concept in a little bit. But I think it's similar for developers as well. There's like a narrow like concept of what a developer is, and that isn't true either. So it's a discussion we need to have. And I think that's part of like this role use is we need to see it. Like as a designer, you need to be able to see someone that is using the word design and you need to see that there's a team for it, but you need to see the breadth of it. And it's very interesting how over time the phrase of what the design team has evolved, just a couple of sentences on the make-side of what the design team is, because we need to be saying everything that we do and saying that in one or two sentences is a really interesting challenge. Just following on from the comment here. It seems reluctant to use a word that would perfectly design engineer. In the car factory, we understand exactly what design engineer is. But I think that... Design doing criteria for the design of the product. But then the problem of design engineer is that means that some designers will say, oh, I need to be technical. So we have to be sensitive for that. Not every designer is going to code. Not every designer should have to code. So I think it's a great term, but it's a term that doesn't necessarily help everybody. And that's part of the conversation, which is why we probably don't need to talk in roles. We just need to talk about experience is a great unlocker and just start talking about the people that are going to be experiencing the product, the customers, the people we call users, the people we call whatever we call them, who are going to be daily interacting with WordPress. We shift the conversation onto the experience and we shift the conversation onto what their journeys are like. Then we stop getting hung up on titles. Titles are something you put as a hat on a human. And we need to start thinking about what the experience is like. I think it's quite true that it's a very hung up on titles. Oh, designers are very hung up on titles. Everybody is hung up on titles, right? Because in the outside corporate world, quite often the title means a pay increment. It means a recognition. It means, well, I've now got to this point, so I'm senior vice hamster wrangler. Whatever, you see some people with 20 different things in their title of gerbils or something. It's ridiculous what they have as their titles. I'm saying gerbils and hamsters, but it's this amazing thing that we say, but that's taking us further and further away from the people using our product. The more things we add to our title, the more things we're focusing on us, not the experience. Thank you. Great. Thanks very much, Tommy.