 I just want to take a moment and respond to the Lord in Thanksgiving for what he's been doing, for what he's been speaking. Can you do that with me? So I'm just going to ask the musicians to just come in with a big swell, and we're just going to lift our voices in Thanksgiving. We're going to actually say thank you, alright? So here we go. Ready? One, two, three. Thank you, Jesus. We thank you, Lord. We thank you, Lord. We enter your gates with Thanksgiving. We enter your courts with praise. Thank you, Holy Spirit, for all that you're doing, Lord. Let our hands be out in a posture of surrender to the Lord. It's a simple song. God, come awaken, first love. Remind us of that time. Let that love burn bright again in the midst of distraction, of busyness, of hurt and pain, of bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness. We want that dove to rest on us again. We want the dove to remain on us. We lift our hands out and surrender to you, because you are worthy. You're worth it all. Lay down our pain, our resentment, our unforgiveness, our pride, the busyness of our schedules. We lay it down at your feet, everything that we are and that we have. We lay it down to make room for you, the one who created us to dwell with us. We make room for you. We remove the things that we have tried to clutter our lives with, so that the one who created us to dwell with us can rest on us. Jesus, we say yes to come have your way, Lord of our life. Can we sing that chorus just one more time before we close? Amen. Can we thank the worship team? Thank you so much, guys. Beautiful, beautiful. Welcome back, everyone. We had a fun morning with R.T. And we're going to have some more time with Pastor Lee and Dr. R.T. Kendall this afternoon. So you guys, go ahead and take a seat. Say hi to someone, and we're going to continue in a little bit. Hi, everyone. My name is Sonny Mazar, and I get to be the director of Radiant Network of Churches. I feel your love, and I love you too. Radiant Network exists to serve pastors and local churches thrive and survive in ministry. You know, the pastoral ministry, as we all heard during the conference, is among the top five most difficult assignments or occupations you can have. One of the things that really sticks out to me as we serve pastors is that Jesus wants your church to be as healthy and kingdom reflective as possible. In Ephesians chapter one, we see Christ seated at the right hand of the Father. But in Revelation chapter one, we see Jesus walking among the lamp stands, which are local churches. And what is he doing? He's assessing them, isn't he? And he's like seeing right through them. He says, I have some correction for you, and I have some affirmation for you. It just blows my mind that Jesus is totally into the local church, which is totally counter-cultural today, isn't it? But pastors and church leaders who are here, the Radiant Network exists for you, and we're delighted that you give us the trust to be in your lives. The Radiant Network is about building relationships with pastors, offering resources to pastors, contending for revival in your church. And we do that in a lot of different ways. We have monthly senior pastor forums. Raise your hand, pastors, if you're participating in the senior pastor forums, right? We have worship leader monthly forums. We have something brand new this year, pastors' wives' forums connecting on Zoom. And we are also giving you a lot of resources because this church is an apostolic house and we serve not only this region, but we exist to serve you. So if you are here and you're maybe thinking Radiant Network might be something you're interested in, stop by the Radiant Network booth right here next to the coffee and get to know us a bit. And Pastor Sean, I'll turn it back over to you. Awesome, awesome. Okay. The moment we've all been waiting for, right? So we're going to have, as Pastor Lee has said earlier, Dr. RT Kendall has written almost like 90 books. I think it's over 90 books. So I was going to actually read the first chapter of each book with you guys. Before we started, just to get us in the vein, if you guys are good with that, I'm just checking. All right. So I'm going to invite up our esteemed leader, Pastor Lee Cummings and Dr. RT Kendall. Louise asked that we put Dr. Kendall here so she can see him. And I'm hoping that after, when I'm at 87, Jane still wants to look at me. Well, Dr. Kendall, let me just, he said I should call him RT. I just, my mother taught me better. But RT... I have Louise call me Dr. Kendall. You've got to keep your wife in their place. Shall we pray? I mean, I don't want to make it miserable for you, but my friends call me RT. Okay, RT. That's better. Okay. Can I just start by saying on behalf of everybody who was in here, I think that message that you brought on the dove resting upon us, I think I'm going to chew on that the rest of my life. And I know that you said that that's, if there was one message that you could preach and know that that was your last message, you said that that would be the one. And I just think out of all the messages that you've preached, that just speaks so much about what you value. That's kind of you to say. It is probably the best insight that I've had in my ministry, the issue of the dove and the way you could grieve him so easily. And I wanted to call the book hypersensitivity of the spirit, because that's the point. I mean, he is very sensitive. He won't bend the rules for anybody. And to get that over, it's changed my life. I've got a long ways to go because I know what it is almost every day to sense that I shouldn't have said that, but it keeps me on my toes. And I think it's done more to bring me to a greater anointing than any insight that I've had. I don't even know what to say to that. That's just so profound, because I mean, it's especially in the arena in the world like charismatic Pentecostal churches or Word in Power, where we talk a lot about the Holy Spirit. I think we can sometimes lose the reality and the truth that the Holy Spirit is not just useful, or a means to an end, or just energy or power. Even when we're talking about presence, you know, I know you wrote a book on the presence of God. It's the presence of God. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of God and it's Him. And we should never be flippant with the Holy Spirit or familiar with the Holy Spirit or take it for granted. And just the idea of how sensitive the Holy Spirit is, how His emotions are impacted by how we respond to His presence that just, I don't know, that's just stirring in me. I'm going to have to really chew on that for a long time. When did that first come to you? When did you receive that revelation? I don't know. I grew up in Ashland, Kentucky. My first pastor that I can remember when I was like five or six years old was Gene Phillips. He had an anointing that shaped me for life. And he would talk about grieving the Spirit. And I think that it came back many years. And then after I became the minister of Westminster Chapel, I would come across that teaching and I thought about it more and more. And then it became a personal challenge. And I wanted not to grieve the Spirit. And I would find out it's hard to live that way because you are tempted almost every moment to let something upset you. And I still find it. I'm not there. You don't think for one moment that you're talking to somebody that's... Louise told us about that at lunch. We'll talk about that later, girl. Okay, so take us back to Kentucky where you grew up. How does a young Nazarene boy from Kentucky end up a pastor for 25 years in one of the landmark churches in the city of London that was preceded by G. Campbell Morgan and Dr. Mark Lloyd Jones? And then how does R.T. Kendall end up pastoring that historic church? It's called God's Sense of Humor. The answer is I went to seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, Southern Baptist Seminary. And they were very liberal then, very. But I did well academically. And my professors recommended me for Oxford University to do my doctorate. They call it D. Phil. And so I went to England to study at Oxford. But it did happen that I knew Mark Lloyd Jones a little bit. I'd corresponded with him. And I visited him with him once on a way to Israel. He spent an evening with me. But I never dreamed I'd be his successor one day. He was my hero. And then while I was at Oxford, I was invited to preach at Westminster Chapel. And it wasn't Dr. Lloyd Jones that did it. A person who attended the little church that I was pastor of in Oxfordshire. It was a Southern Baptist church in Oxfordshire, 10 or 12 miles from Oxford. Lower Hayford, when there was an upper Hayford Air Force base, made up of U.S. airmen. And there were enough there that they formed a little Southern Baptist church. And they heard I was in the air and they called me to be the pastor. Well, I would invite Dr. Lloyd Jones to preach for me. And so we were kind of friends like that. But it never crossed his mind that I would preach at Westminster Chapel. He thought I was going to be a professor or academic. And then somebody recommended me to the deacons at Westminster Chapel. And they called Dr. Lloyd Jones, said, we're told we should have an RT Kendall. Do you know him? They said, quote, this verbata. Theologian, you know, but have him once. Yeah. And so I went. And they asked me to stay for 25 years. And when Lloyd Jones heard about it, he drove to see Louise and me to our home and pleaded with me to accept their offer. They said, we'll have you for six months and see how it goes. And I said, well, look, if I stay for six months and I don't stay, is that going to offend them? No, it's fine. You'd be good for you. Good for them. Stay six months. And I said to Louise, well, okay. And then after three months of preaching there, people began to be converted and they were starting to grow. And one by one would come in to see me and say, please don't leave. Please don't leave. And our children had it hard in English schools, especially my son, we call him TR. Long story about that, but that's what we call him. And whatever we would say, grace at the table. I promise you every time, every day, TR would say, God, thank you for the food and help TR to get his D fill so we can go back to America all the time. And then before I knew it, they voted on us. I think I got 96% of the vote. Dr. Lloyd-Jones said that's a bigger vote than I would have got. Bigger vote than G. Cameron Morgan would have got. You should stay. So we agreed. I'll never forget it. You can remember where he was standing and where I was. TR was crying. He'd been there a month or two. He said, Daddy, you said we were going home. And we're still here. And I couldn't look at him in the eyes. It's been the greatest sense of guilt in my whole life. After 25 years, and we agreed it was a good time to retire. The interesting thing, they wanted me to stay. I stayed another five years. And my hero is Joe DiMaggio, New York Yankees. I'm a Yankee fan. Forgive me for that. Sorry about that. DiMaggio quit while he was on top. Babe Ruth had, you know, went down and couldn't even carry a, couldn't hold a ball in his hand. DiMaggio was on top and that's when he, I thought that's when I should leave. They want me to stay another five years ago. But then the Billy Graham people came to me and said, we want to do a film with you, 60 minute film about your time in London. And they asked me questions. How do you prepare sermons? What's your doctrine of the Holy Spirit? What's it like for an American preaching in London? And then they said, well, that's 59 minutes. 59 minutes. Let's see, we've got one minute to go. How shall we use that? Dr. Kendall, tell us about your role as a father. I said, stop, stop. Don't film. Don't film. On this, I've been a failure. I spent 25 years putting the church first, thinking I was putting God first, sermon preparation first, thinking I was putting God first. I now believe if I'd put my family first, I would have preached just as well. But I can't get those 25 years back, so ask me something else. They filmed that. That was the only part they used. They said it would encourage pastors. That was fine with me. I don't know how we got to that, but... So you really believe that over the 25-year ministry? I think that's important just even as a side note for those of us who are pastoring churches and raising kids and trying to be faithful to the call of God on our lives. If I could turn the clock back... I wrote a book about my 25 years in London, and I have a chapter. If I could turn the clock back, first thing, I would put my family first. I failed to do that. How would you have done that practically different? Because there's so many responsibilities, and when you have that mantle that you're carrying in a church and you have the day in and day out, the sermon prep, hearing from God, leading prayer, the things, how do you think practically you would have changed that? I mean, practically like... Well, I honestly believe I would have preached just as well, or maybe better, but I wouldn't have that guilt. Both of our kids, they had a hard time. TR's a little bit larger physically than the English boys. They made front of his accent, and Melissa's the same thing, and they would cry, and I would say, come on, get over it. I just was not... I wasn't good. I am sorry. I was always trying to do well at Westminster Chapel. I felt so inferior to the predecessors. These were giants. I mean, legends, G. Campbell Morgan. My father's favorite preacher was G. Campbell Morgan. In fact, if I could skip forward for a moment, he was upset with me when I left the Nazarenes, but when I was going to be the pastor of the G. Campbell Morgan's church, I pacified him. He healed the wound. Yeah, and then Mark Lloyd-Jones. I mean, to this moment, he's a legend. And who am I? And I never felt I came up to them. And I didn't. They had great ministries. I'd say a good ministry. I'm not ashamed of it. I did all right. And my ministry of books goes around the world. So I wasn't a failure, but I never felt that I came up to the standard. So I'm ashamed to say, but that was on my mind, more than my family. And if only I could turn the clock back, I would have a different perspective. But I have to live with that and trust that God will cause all things to work together for good. Well, if you've had an average ministry, the rest of us are in trouble. That's all I could say. And I hear what you're saying. And, you know, Jane and I, three children that are now grown adults, and it is amazing how ministry will take everything that you give it. The church will give everything that you're willing to surrender to it. And if you're not careful, your family will miss out on that, but you don't get that time back. And it's vital, it's pivotal. And it's one of the things that you can get a decade down the road and you can look it back on and you can have those regrets about it. But you'll never regret the time that you left the office early. You said no to an engagement to be with your family. So lesson learned, everybody. Okay, so here's a question for you. Do you, obviously, even Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones said about you that you were a theologian. So here you are, you're at Oxford, which is a pretty good school. And you've got your doctorate, your master's, your theologian. Most of the time when people go down that road, for the most part, and it's a generality, but for the most part, the life of the Spirit, of the Holy Spirit is not something that necessarily marks their ministry. But you, in a very unique way, I said it earlier today, one of the reasons why I was drawn to you is because you loved theology, you loved the Word of God. But you were always in the circles with the prophetic ministry and the work of the Spirit. In fact, your conferences in England were Word and Spirit. So it was this dynamic combination of the Word and the movement of the Holy Spirit. What was it, and when was your, when did that decision and kind of that direction come into shape in your life as you're training in seminary or through life going through academics? What was it that awakened your heart to that reality? Well, those stages is the truthful answer. Fast forward a little bit. I was introduced to Paul Cain. And I invited him to speak at Westminster Chapel on a Friday evening. And then after that, we went out for dinner. And there's a steakhouse in Victoria Street called the Aberdeen Steakhouse. And we went there and I was just getting to know him. And I remember saying to him, not knowing that it would be prophetic or historic, I just said, Paul, you need my theology. I need your power. And he said, you've got a deal. And in that moment, the Word and Spirit concept was born right then. I didn't think about it. It was going to be anything big, but that's when it started. And then that was in 1991. And then in October 1992, we had the first Word and Spirit conference in Wembley Conference Center in London held by, it was packed with 2,500 people, most of them Charismatics, but not all. And so Paul and I had the first Word and Spirit conference. So that is the ultimate answer to your question. But then to go back, I was brought up in Nazarene and in those days, Nazarenes had a zeal for God. I mean, they really did. Theologically, not so good. But experimentally, they love the Lord. And I was brought up in that. The first thing Mark Lloyd-Jones said to me, don't forget your Nazarene background because he knew a little bit about it. And he said, that's what saved you. And he referred to all the reformed ministers in Britain. He called them perfectly orthodox, perfectly useless. But he saw me as being different from them. And I think he was probably right. It was my background. There's nothing that I could brag about. I couldn't help it. That's the way I was. Went to Treveka Nazarene College. It's now university. And then felt called to preach. And three months later, I was invited to pastor a church. So I'm now a student pastor at Treveka Monday to Friday. And then at Palmer, Tennessee, 110 miles away, I was preacher on the weekends. So they're pastor. In the meantime, my grandmother Kendall bought me a brand new car, a 1955 Chevrolet because you'll need a car to drive back and forth. And so that is what happened. Every weekend I'd go to Palmer, usually come back on a Sunday night, sometimes on a Monday morning. Shall I continue? Yeah, I know where you're going. I knew you knew where I was going. And I figured you want to be... You guys are going to want to hear this story. Well, here's the story. This is vital. This makes all the difference. On a Monday morning, October 31st, 1955, I was coming down from Mont Eagle on old US 41 and I turned off the radio. I'd been listening to Cato Tabernacle. It's an old program that not many here would even know about. Turned off the radio at 6.30. And I thought, I'm going to pray all the way back to Treveka. About an hour and a half drive left and always turned the radio on all the way to Treveka and back. I turned it off. And as I started to pray, a great burden suddenly seized me. And I thought, what is this? What is this? And two verses came to my mind. Matthew 11, verse 30, my yoga is easy and my burden is light. 1 Peter chapter 5, verse 7, cast all your care upon him for he cares for you. And I don't know why those verses are coming to me. I just pray, please, Lord, help me to cast all my care upon you. Then I could say, my yoga is easy. My burden is light. Because I felt awful. I was miserable. I thought, Lord, where are you? What is this all about? I could take you virtually the same spot on the road on old US 41, on the way from Montego, on the way to Manchester, Tennessee, on the road when all of a sudden, as I'm driving to my right, as I'm driving, there's Jesus more real to me than you or anybody here. I mean, more real. There he was, interceding for me at the right hand of God. I thought, well, this is interesting. I felt that the God that follows behind me, and here's Jesus, and he's at the Father's right hand. It's literal. He really is at the right hand of God. I was thinking that. And then I heard him interceding for me, but I couldn't tell what he was saying. It's like if you hear somebody talking in the next room, conversation, you can't tell what they're saying. Well, he was interceding, and I never felt so loved in all my life. He was putting his life on the man before the, his life before the Father, and now I am just a spectator. I'm not praying anymore. I'm just watching. The next thing I remember was an hour later, coming into Smyrna, Tennessee, about 20 miles from Nashville. It was like the veil was removed. I heard Jesus say to the Father, He wants it. A voice replied, the Father said to Jesus, He can have it. And in that moment, a surge of warmth. You could say liquid fire. Warm. I mean, I could feel physically warm. I even thought of John Wesley. His heart was strangely warmed. All this gate street. I thought, is this what happened to Wesley? My heart was warmed. And I never had such peace in all my life. I didn't know you could have anything like it. It wasn't just the absence of anxiety. It was the presence of such peace and joy. And for about a minute, maybe 30 seconds, like no way of timing it, but lo and behold, the face of Jesus looking right at me, if I were an artist with clear recall, I could tell you exactly what he looks like. At least this part. The eyes, eyebrows, eyes and nose. I've only seen two people in my life that had a nose like that. Kind of an olive complexion. And just looking at me, languid eyes is the way I would put it. And what are John Newton's hymns? He talks about languid eyes. That says it. Just looking at me. And then I didn't say anything. And it was now 10 minutes till 8. It's an hour and 20 minutes later. I come into Treveka Park, go to my dormitory room, shave, and at 8 o'clock in the morning, now at my first class. And I'm thinking, what was that? Whatever was that? And for years I asked what is the it? He can have it. He wants it. I can now tell you, if you want to go into that later, it's up to you. And I didn't know what it was. An old friend from Treveka, he's still alive, Bill Kearns, my closest friend, came running across the campus and came to my room. I said, RT, what's happened to you? I said, well, something has happened. He said, I know. You see it. What is it? I said, I don't know. I honestly don't know. I do know one thing. What? I'm saved. Well, that's odd comment. Of course you're saved. I said, no, this is different. I'm eternally saved. What do you mean by that? I mean, I'm going to heaven. I have been to heaven this morning. And I'll go back there. I'll be back there. No matter what I do between now and then, I'm going back there. I'm eternally saved. He said, well, you'll change your mind on that. I said, I bet I don't. And I never did. And that's 60 some years ago. And all day long, I just was basking in a sense of a presence of God. And by sundown that day, I hope this doesn't offend anybody. I'm not here to offend, but I had a new theology. I knew I was eternally saved. I knew I was chosen from the foundation of the world. I knew that nobody could be saved by the work of the Holy Spirit. And for several days, I honestly thought that I had discovered something new. I thought that I am the first since the apostle Paul to see this because it went completely against everything I'd been taught as a boy. And all I can say is that I'm going to let you take over because I don't want to say more, because I'm not here to cause controversy, but all I've said is the reason, the reason that after my love for theology intensifies, I read my Bible more than ever. I began to see things in the Bible I'd never seen before. And I didn't care what I saw. I didn't read the Bible just to prove what I wanted to see. I just want to know what the truth is. And so, I've said enough. Oh, no. I mean, come on. There's a little controversy when you have an hour-and-a-half prayer meeting with Jesus in person in your car. I'll sign up for that. But I think what you're referring to is the fact that here you are Nazarene or growing up as a Nazarene, which is traditionally Arminian. And then you have an encounter with the Holy Spirit or with Jesus that the encounter of it and the presence of Jesus gave you such assurance, opened up your heart to hunger for the Scripture. And then you end up finding yourself to be, as you say, a four-and-a-half point Calvinist now. And you, for many, many years, have run and been known as a spirit-filled, charismatic, or word-and-spirit Calvinist power of the Holy Spirit. And you know, in many ways, you're kind of spiritually homeless. I mean, because you were telling me earlier, it's like, as soon as you begin to talk about things of the Holy Spirit, all the theological, the conservative, evangelical reform, people didn't want to have anything to do with you. And as soon as you start talking about Calvinism or Reformed theology or going too in-depth into your theological understanding, the charismatic didn't want to have anything to do with you. What was it like, all of those years leading, knowing that maybe you didn't fit into those camps? What was that like for you? That had to be difficult. Well, first of all, I hope this won't sound like self-pity, because I'm happy, I'm fine. But for years and years and years, even to now, even today, every week or two, something will come up. It hurts because the Reformed people have rejected me, I would say 90%. I've had books written against me, articles, never once by an Armenian, never once by a charismatic or a Pentecostal. They've all been Reformed men. They resent me because I won't dot all their eyes and cross all the T's, and I preach for anybody. I just don't look over my shoulder and think, well, if I go here, they're going to hear about it here. If I get invited, I'm free, I'll say yes. And that offends certain people, and it hurts when they turn against you. But I remember praying in April 1956, a prayer that I don't recommend that anybody else pray, and a prayer that maybe I shouldn't have prayed. But I heard the general superintendent of the church of the Nazarene preach a sermon on Philippians 2.5, that Jesus made himself of no reputation, and he became the lowest possible shame, and I was so gripped by that sermon that I literally got on my knees and prayed, God, make me the lowest possible shame for your glory. Now, that's, whether I should have or shouldn't, I don't know, I just, that's what I prayed. There was no way that could be answered because at that time, I was on top of the world, pastor of a church, Nazarene with a future, driving one of the few students that had a car, my grandmother given to me. Within two months, all that changed. As I'm driving from Treveka back to Ashland, I can remember almost where it was in near Lexington, Kentucky, as I was driving one evening, the dashboard on my car was suddenly a 1953 Chevrolet. Oh, this is 1955 Chevrolet. Well, it was this real. I mean, it was a dashboard like 1953. The reason I knew, because my roommate, Ralph Lee, had a 1953 Chevrolet, and I knew it well. And there it was. I went, why am I having this? And a week later, my grandma Kendall, because she could see a change of theology, I wasn't going to stay on Nazarene, she took the car back. And now I'm without a car. And my father, he was a godly man. He met well, he met well. But he said, if you son, if you're going to stay here, you've got to pay rent. You need to get a job. And so I did. I'd given up my church in Palmer. There's a prehistory there, if you want to know about it. I mean, this could go on longer than you want. I'm trying to fast forward it. So I was in this little restaurant with some friends. I said, I'm going to have to get a job. And I don't know where I'm going to find a job. And a man overheard me. His name was Marvin Cremans. He's walked up, says, you need a job? I said, yeah, he said, I'll give you a job. That's what he wanted me to do. He said, drive my drag cleaning truck, pick up orders, take them home. You don't have to do anything. Just take them home, orders. And I said, OK. So when I go to his office the next day, he gives me the keys to his truck. When I sit in the car, low and behold, 1953 Chevrolet dashboard. That's the reason for the vision. And let me know. I mean, God's will. This is exactly what he knew was going to happen. And it just gave me great comfort. And so I did drag cleaning for a while. In the meantime, my father, he was so upset with me. He says, son, you've broken with God. I said, no, dad, I'm closer to God than ever. Prove to me that you're closer to God than ever. Well, I was rocking my brain. What can I say? Trying to impress him, I said something I shouldn't have said. But I said it. I said, I'm going to have an international ministry. It's going to go around the world. Because after that experience in my car, I had more experiences. Six weeks later, I spoke in tongues, which I'd never done. I didn't expect it. I wasn't looking for it. Nazarenes were against it. And there I was doing it. And then I had visions. I had probably 10, 11, 12 visions. And one or two of them showed me revival that was going to go around the world. And I was alive and in it. And I said to my dad, I'm going to have an international ministry around the world. He said, when? One year from now. He said, would you put that in writing? Yup. He got out of paper. I, R.T. Kendall Will from The Date Below have a ministry that goes around. And I signed it. I thought it would happen three months. Because I don't know if you've had a vision. But they're so real, you think you're going to happen tomorrow. A year later, I wasn't even in the ministry. I wasn't delivering dry cleaning, but I was working as a salesman. Five years later, I'm working as a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman. International ministry. That's it. Well, all my fellow students were pastoring churches. And people would say, where's R.T. these days? The answer is, I go up to Strange House, knock on the door. Hello. I'm R.T. Kendall. I've come to show you something new and different for your home. And I made my living selling vacuum cleaners for several years. Nobody under the sun would have put any money in my future. But it changed quickly. And it's kind of funny when I think about it. I become the minister of Westminster Chapel. I'm invited there. Just three years earlier, I was selling vacuum cleaners. That shows how quickly God can make something happen. And it's a long story. I don't want to bore you with the details. But anyway, that's amazing. You ended up having... You asked him. I'm saying too much. I did ask. What? I did ask the question, didn't I? Okay. And now you have an international ministry. So what did your dad say when you became the pastor at Westminster Chapel? He didn't care until I told him that's where G. Campbell Morgan was the pastor. And he said, you're going to be where G. Campbell Morgan was? I said, yeah. That was his favorite preacher. That's what saved me with my dad. But I never got the car back. RT, one of the things that I think stands out about some of the unique experiences, and I would even say roles that God has had you serve in the church as a word and spirit leader, somebody that people look to to give validation in many cases to like revival movements, was when you came out and you said publicly that you believe that the Toronto revival that broke out was actually of God. I think many people expected you to come out in opposition to that. But you came out and kind of shocked everybody on that. But then a little bit later, let me finish this question and you can take it any direction you want to. A little bit later, there were other moves of God or at least one that I can think of that people wanted you to validate. But you said, I don't think that that's the Lord. What I'd love for you to do is maybe explain why you felt number one called to speak into those situations and what was your criteria? Because that's a big thing publicly to put your name on something. What do you look at at outpouring, awakenings, revivals to validate and say yes, this is a move of God or what are the red flags that maybe have caused you to be cautious about something? Well, none of this happened quickly. When I first heard of the people falling on the floor and laughing, I just didn't like that at all. I found that repulsive. And I warned my church at Westminster Chapel. I said, what's going on these days? We must be open to the Spirit because we've been praying daily. I gave out a prayer card with five requests that several hundred people agreed to pray every day. One of the requests was we pray for the manifestation of God's glory along with an ever increasing openness in us to the way he chooses to manifest that glory. Because I knew about the Cain Ridge Revival. I knew about the Great Awakening. And I knew that Westminster Chapel, very sedate, middle class and not ready for anything like that. And so when the blessing broke out, that's what the Sunday Telegraph, major newspaper in London called it the Toronto Blessing, I spoke against it. I warned people against it. And then a friend of mine, his name is Ken Costa, a banker, highly respected Englishman. Who had looked to me over the years for input. And he was the church warden of Holy Trinity, Brompton. He said, Artie, I need to talk to you. Something's happened at Holy Trinity. I'm not sure what to think of it. And he said, do you have any sermons on one John 4, one, two, three, four? I said, yeah, four, actually. I had one for each verse. He said, could I read them? So he sent a courier over and I sent these sermons. And then he said, could we have lunch at the Savoy this week? And I said, sure. So I was going to have lunch with him to warn him against all this. And he just wanted to ask questions. He wasn't there to convince me of anything. And as I listened to him and he told me what was going on in Holy Trinity, I looked at him. There was a glow on his face. And he was telling you what was happening. I thought, I think I've been on the wrong side. And I got really upset. I thought, you know, there's always been an ante throughout history. There was a wealth revival. The people that were against it were the Christians. And the great awakening, people made fun of it. It's always been an ante. And I thought, I'm being like that. And the more I looked at him, I said, this is real. It was changing his life. He was an international banker who had the ear to the prime minister. You could see the queen, that's the stature he had. And he would give up and give talks. And he said, I was talking yesterday to a bunch of businessmen. I just started laughing in front of all of them. They joined the Lord. My goodness. I can see it was real. I called Louise. I said, I think I've been on the wrong side. And the more I thought about it, I got the dickens together at Westminster Chapel. I said, I've been wrong. I think this is of God. On the Sunday morning, I publicly climbed down from the stance I took weeks before. I said, something's going on at Holy Trinity. Let's not be against it. And if you want to go there to get prayed for, go. If you don't come back, I won't blame you. And we became sister churches. And I've never looked back at people. To this day, they write me letters. Is it true you endorse the Toronto blessing? And they don't understand. It was a process. And I had to die a thousand deaths. And I lost more followers than ever. But I had peace. And then two years later, John Arnott invited me to preach there at Toronto. And that's another story. It's up to you. Good. Go. But anyway, John Arnott, after we retired, we decided to take 25 years. I thought that's long enough. I'll tell you a deal like this. A year or two before I retired, I was asking myself this question. How long shall I stay? What kept me there? I honestly thought revival would come to Westminster Chapel. I believed it with all my heart. And now I've been there 23 years. I thought, when will I admit maybe it's not going to come? And I didn't want to admit that. But I said to Louise, let's say 25 years, and then we'll give it up. And so then I began to panic. I thought, 25 years and we go back to America, nobody knows me over there. Where will I go? I thought, well, we had property in the Florida Keys and built a house. And I'll just bone fish 25 hours a day and become a recluse. In that moment, I heard these words. Your ministry in America will be to Charismatics. I said it. Oh, no. We don't take that personally. Well, I said, Lord, please, let me have a ministry to Evangelicals. Okay, now it's getting a little... I mean, I've got the credentials. Let me reach Evangelicals. I have what they need. And I've got the credentials, I've got the theology. Why can't I minister to them? And then I thought how Paul wanted to minister to Jews. That was where his heart was. And God said, no, Gentiles. And I'm sure Paul must have said, oh, no. I mean, the way Jews were brought up to feel about Gentiles, you know, that was the last thing he wanted to do. And I thought, okay, and you know what? The way it happened, I didn't make anything happen. I didn't raise a little finger. But for the last 20 years, 90% of my invitations have been from Charismatics. I don't know where they got my name. I don't know how it happened. My publisher, Steve Strang, offered me to publish my books. And I published books with him. And then there's another little thing that happened. Maybe it wasn't little. I met Yasser Arafat. And then I was in Los Angeles. And I went by Steve Strang wanted me to meet Paul Crouch. And we just went in to say hello to Paul Crouch. And there were 10 minutes before the Praise the Lord program was going to start. And Paul Crouch, he had heard of me. And he said, what have you been doing? I said, I just got back. I've been with Yasser Arafat this past week. Been with Arafat? Yeah. He said, well, you must go on the Praise program. Come on. I wasn't even made up or anything. And it was 10 minutes before the program. Franklin Graham was supposed to be on. I don't think he's ever forgiven me. He got bumped. Had me on there for 30 minutes talking about Arafat. And this opened doors. And because it was on Praise the Lord, Charismatics invited me. And the point is, that's where I am today. Reform people, virtually 98% of them, they don't like me at all. They feel I betrayed them. And, you know, I had Arthur blessed to preach for me. And that's enough. You never finished your story about going to Toronto, about going and preaching for John Arnott. What? You said that you were invited to go to Toronto. Yeah. To preach by John Arnott. You were going to tell that story. Oh, well, yeah, I'm sorry. We don't have a script. I didn't know what he's going to ask us. Hello, all of you over there. I'm sorry to have my back to you. Well, I think what... Louise is over there. Yeah. She wanted to see me. I think what you're thinking about, this did not happen a day later. After in the year 2002, I was in Westminster Chapel 25 years to the day. Started February 1st, 1977. Retired February 1st, 2002. And we moved to the Florida Keys. And then we decided to move to Tennessee. And we got getting letters from England, mostly England. Have you heard about the great revivals broken out in Lakeland? That's what you want me to talk about. Okay. I know, I didn't know. And so turned on the TV and God TV in England were promoting this meeting in Lakeland, Florida. With this pea preacher. And they said, this is last day ministries. And it's reaching countries that have never heard the gospel at all. And so we just watched night after night. And I kept watching. And I think, I don't, this doesn't feel right. Louise, after the third night, she says, I can't watch it anymore. I said, well, honey, it's, you know, we need to be open. And I kept looking and kept. And fast forward. I came to the place in my heart of heart. You put me under a lie detector. This is not a God at all. And so John Arnott, close friend, he's written the forward to my next book, by the way. So we're very close. Came to Nashville, not just to see me. He was already in Nashville, but we wanted to see me while I was in Nashville. I said, RT, come to Lakeland next week. There's about a dozen of us are going to lay hands on the preacher and send him to a worldwide ministry. I said, no, I won't come. He said, why not? I said, it's not of God. Oh, don't ever say that. I said, it's not of God. Well, RT, you endorsed us. I said, it was of God. This is different. And I stuck to my guns. I was invited. I could have been there with all of those famous American charismatic leaders. They're all household names. And they go and lay hands on him. And one of them actually said, you can get it on, it's on TV. You can trace it and keep looking. You'll find it where they lay hands on him. And one well-known preacher from Redding, California actually said to this preacher, you'll be greater than Moses. That's pretty big, Moses. And they were all saying, you're going to be the evangelist in our last days. Every one of them praising him. And I looked at that and I thought, this is not right. It's not fun to be alone. And then I was asked to write an article about it in ministries today. And they had 10 articles on the Lakeland revival. I alone said, it's not of God. And they just said, you shouldn't say that. Three weeks later after that magazine came out, it suddenly closed down overnight. Well, while the ministers lived with the secretary in the trailer behind the audit, where the revival was actually going on, and he closed it down. Different ones would come to me and say, well, RT, you were right. And that's what annoyed me. I said, why did it take the immorality to convince you? Couldn't you tell? Didn't you watch him? Okay. So this is helpful for us. How do you, because when it came to Toronto, your response was, I don't want to be on the wrong side. I think I've been on the wrong side of this. But now you see another move of God or something that is purported to be a move of God. And you judged it differently. What is it? What's your dashboard that you're looking at, at revivals or anything that purports to be revivals, that you use as a plumb line to determine, yes, this is a move of God and no, this isn't. What are the things that will be helpful for you? That will be helpful for us. Three reasons. Number one, never once did he preach the gospel. Never once. It was always word of knowledge. Someone here, you were told today you've got cancer of the pancreas. Come forward and we'll pray for you. And then they'd come up, he lay hands on them, just go bam, and they'd fall backwards. And dozens and dozens would come back. And for all I know, they got healed. I don't know that they did or didn't, I'm just saying. So you're not saying it wasn't necessarily power that was present? All I know is that they all fell to the floor. He would say bam. But what really worried me? Well, that's not so bad, but it's just, they all liked that. And I thought, okay, that wouldn't be the reason I'd be against it. But I thought, they're saying this is last day ministries reaching countries that have never heard the gospel. It was reaching Iraq, Iran. And I thought if this is last day ministries and it's reaching countries that have never heard the gospel, you would think at least the gospel would be preached. Never once did he talk about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and that we're saved by the blood of Jesus. He never preached it. It was word of knowledge, word of knowledge. Night after night after night. And I said, that can't be right. Then when he would baptize people, he would say in the name of the Father, Son, bam. Didn't even say Holy Spirit. That's trivializing the Holy Spirit. And then no conviction of sin at all. No sense of sin. You see, when the presence of God is in power, you'll be conscious of sin. Like to door, if I may say this, forgive me. When I preached this morning as I did, why did you stand after I said what I did, after preaching on the sensitivity of the Spirit? You were convicted of sin. You see, when God's at work, you're convicted of sin. That's why you stood. There was none of that there. I was safe as in my mother's arms to say it's not of God. I had no doubt. Well, if the man hadn't been in an adultery situation, he might still be preaching today. Well, actually he is preaching today. He didn't stop him. Let's not go there. Okay, so, yeah. For the rest of the story by his books. Okay, so here's one of the final questions I want to ask you. You've made reference to in the past, and I know your newest book that's about to come out, has to deal with a somewhat controversial, but I think hopeful revelation that you've had where you compare the modern day historic charismatic renewal to Ishmael, and you say that the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit that is the fulfillment of the promised end days, last days outpouring of the Holy Spirit is going to be the Isaac. Isaac is still coming. What do you mean by that? Can you unpack that a little bit for us? Because I think some people have been in a charismatic world, have over the years gotten upset with you about that. But I think as you were talking to me in the back room about it, I think it's actually very hopeful. Well, here's the story. I mentioned already the first Word and Spear conference in Wimbledon Conference Center, most of them there are charismatic. I preached three times. Paul Cain preached three times. He was the other speaker. And on the evening I took my text from Genesis 17 where Abraham had just been told that Ishmael is not the promised child. You see, I'm sure this is biblical background you don't need, but I'll say it in 30 seconds. For 13 years, Abraham believed that Ishmael was the promised child. Sarah, trying to help the promised along, said sleep with Hagar because she wasn't having a baby. And so he sleeps with Hagar and it's a male child and it was from his loins. And so he says, well, I guess that's the way it's going to be. I thought it would be from Sarah, but it's okay. So he thinks Ishmael's it. And then one day God says, no, Isaac is coming. I took from that something that I had believed for years and years and years, but never really went public with it till that night. I said, the charismatic movement is Ishmael. Charismatics have believed that they are the last work of God before the second coming. Wrong. Isaac is coming. And it will be a hundred times greater than anything we've seen be the greatest move of the spirit since Pentecost. And you know what? I thought they would be on their floor throwing papers in the air, thrilled with what I said and instead you could hear a pen drop. They didn't like it. The charismatic leaders looked at me and said, you call us Ishmael. Well, I said, Isaac is coming. You call us Ishmael. And they couldn't think about Isaac. They only took it personally. And I said, okay. A week later, somebody came up to me and said, did you get that from Smith Wigglesworth? No. What do you mean? He said the same thing. I didn't know this, but you can go online in 1947, three months before Wigglesworth died. He gave a prophecy. You could get it on the internet. I didn't make it right because it's on the internet, but it's there. What he was saying. And he said it all that I said, that the greatest move of God will be coming. And I called it Isaac. Well, charismatic just weren't speaking to me. Now I had the Calvinist against me and I had the charismatic against me. And it was a pretty lonely world. But you know what? Things have changed. That's years ago. Now the leading charismatic publisher. What's her name? Destiny. Destiny image. Sorry about that. My publish is here. And I couldn't think of the name. I've got about 10 publishers. And this is and they wanted it. And Larry Sparks asked me in the Harrisburg Airport. He had just read my book prophetic integrity. And he liked it. Which pleased me because I didn't know what he would think of that. Because I nailed to the wall all these charismatic prophets that said, Trump will have two consecutive terms. And the Democrats stole the election. Trump is still president. I said if why didn't God tell you that was going to happen? You know, they didn't want to talk about that. And so that made me unpopular with charismatic all the more. But Larry Sparks said, I want you to publish your book. And they're calling it the Isaac promise of all that I said that night. It comes out in August. So you can read it for yourself. So what is what does it look like to you when you think about Isaac? That is to come as opposed to the contemporary Pentecostal cares Mac third wave, even, you know, those that came out of the empowered evangelicals of vineyard movement. If that's, you know, I think what you're saying when you say it's Ishmael, it's not that it's bad because there was a promise to Ishmael, right? Well, listen, what's her name? Edie? She's here tonight. Yep, she's right down here. She's, she's, she's read it. I think she will, if you go up to her and ask her, well, Larry Sparks, I give charismatic praise to the high heaven. God has used the charismatic movement. Latin America is all charismatic. Like Africa, the Christian message that's spread over China, Latin America, Africa, and many places in America is charismatic. God has used it just as there was a place for Ishmael. God is the one that gave him his name. Right, right. Call him Ishmael. So there was a purpose. So the fact that the best is yet to come, the charismatic shouldn't take it personally. You get the first bite of the cherry when the real thing happens, and I think it's coming. What's it going to look like? What do you think if you could predict? I know you're not a prophet necessarily, but you may have some insight into what you think it will look like. I don't know. I just know that something's going to happen in a very short period of time. God can do things overnight. What happened in Wilmore, Asbury. Look what happened just in seconds. That's how quick God can do something. I hope to be alive when it happens, because in my visions, what I saw 70 years ago, 65 whenever it was, I was in it, and I like to think that means I'll be alive. I can be wrong, but it's coming. I hope, you don't have to agree, but my view, eschatologically, is that the next thing to happen on God's calendar is not the second coming, but the awakening of the church just before the second coming. Thank you. Many people hastily assume that the midnight cry and the second coming are simultaneous in Matthew 25. Foodish virgins, wise virgins, ten virgins. Look at it more carefully. The cry comes in the middle of the night. It's not midnight, like 12 o'clock midnight. The Greek says middle of night. Three words in the Greek. Like at two o'clock in the morning, you're in a deep sleep. The last thing you want is to be awakened. Well, the church will be asleep. The wise virgins, foodish virgins, all asleep. You don't know you were asleep until you wake up. And there are churches today. Many of you, forgive me. You're asleep. You don't think it. Then you get awakened and you think, I can't believe, because when you're asleep, you don't know it until you wake up. You do things in your sleep. You wouldn't do if you were awake. You hate the sound of an alarm, and nobody likes this kind of teaching. You're going to be suddenly awakened. The cry made. And then the foodish virgins said to the wise, give us of your oil. If the second coming to a place then, they wouldn't be able to have that conversation. There's a gap in time between the call, the midnight cry, and the coming of the bridegroom. And that's what's going to happen. In my opinion, the next great move of God on the earth will be this thing that will be Ishmael. It will be a revival that will spread around the world. It will be the awakening of Israel. It will be the lifting of blindness on Israel. There are going to be Muslims converted by the millions. It will be all over the world in a very short period of time, and it will be the front page news everywhere. It will happen suddenly. If I die first, mark it down. It's coming. I hope to be alive. That's the best way I know to put it. Well, I hope you're alive too, and I hope we're all part of it. Because I don't know about you, but I mean, and everybody in this room, that's what we're praying for. That's what we're believing for. That's what we desperately need. So what will happen? John Paul Jackson, before he died, gave me this. He said, he was given a word. He was taken to heaven. He describes it. He's in heaven. Well, in my, oh, in the book coming out, I tell all about it. Everything about John Paul's prophecy. But I'll make it quick. He's in heaven, and he sees four bleachers, you know, like football seats without backs. There were rows of four, and in come a group of, he said there were men. I'm sorry, that's what he said, men. Fill row one, row two, and row three, and row four is vacant. In comes the messenger of God who says, I've come to announce the next great move of God on the earth. The key to the next great move of God on the earth is the book of Romans, and especially chapter four. And then the messenger of God says, you men on the third row have abused your histories. Some of you will live, some of you will die, but no matter how you try, you're finished. You men on rows one and two have not abused the Romans four principle. And on a day you least expect you'll be catapulted to row four where no man has stood since the days of the early church. That was a vision. What was interesting John Paul didn't have a clue what Romans four was about. He just knew it. And what was more impressive is the fact that he didn't know. He just told him what he saw. Well, look at Romans four. It means a restoration of the gospel, justification by faith alone. This is what Martin Luther discovered that turned the world upside down the 16th century. Most people today don't have a clue what that's about. Romans four is all about the gospel. And then the second part inheritance about Sarah giving birth to a baby at the age of 90 will be seeing miracles. He said, you're going to see people raised from the dead. This is last day ministries indeed. And that was John Paul's word and take it or leave it. And the baby that Sarah gave and the baby that Sarah gave birth to at 90. What was his name? Isaac. Isaac is coming. I believe that. And I'm 87 years old. I'm in good health. I travel the world, I'm busy as I've ever been. Honestly, try not to laugh but every day I actually say Lord, could it be today? It's what I live for. Maybe today. Maybe today. Dr. Kendra, would you pray for us? Would you pray for the leaders, the churches, the people who are here that are believing with you that God will move in our churches and in our cities and perhaps by God's goodness we might be a part of the next great move of God. Would you just pray for us? Pray for us as leaders. Heavenly Father, what we've talked about for the last hour or so and what I have said is either true or it isn't. If it's not true then I ask in mercy that what has been said today will be forgotten, forgotten, forgotten. But what if indeed this truth has been spoken today, I ask you to apply it by your Holy Spirit because all your works are done in truth. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life and all we want is the truth. Not anything that will vindicate our words or our positions, our teaching. We want your truth. We want you to get all the glory and honor and I ask that you will hasten the day if what we've said is true that we will be ready, trim our lamps to make sure that we are not among the foolish virgins who took no oil, who are asleep and I ask you to give us even in this moment a many wake up call ready and not be surprised, be used, hasten the day when the Word and the Spirit come together not simply by people believing opposites coming together, but there will be a simultaneous combination of the Word and the Spirit that will result in spontaneous combustion that will bring about the greatest power, the power of the gospel, power of miracles that will cause the world to stand still. Lord if this doesn't happen, what are we going to do? Things at the moment, at the moment look so bleak, but you can change all that just as in Hezekiah's day when they had the greatest Passover that anybody can remember and you did it overnight. We ask you, hasten the day do it before our eyes that not only will America be awakened, but the gospel will resonate in China, in India, in South America, South Africa, it will be worldwide to get ready for the bridegroom to come indeed. We ask this to bring you great honor and glory in Jesus name, amen. Everybody can we thank Dr. Kendall, thank you so much.