 Hello, this is Hamza Rifud-Osan. You're watching Islamabad Today for Think Tech Hawaii. Today's topic is Hunakada, Celebrations of a Dehumanized Existence. Now this topic might sound very complicated, but it's not, it's all about the power of art. I have with me a veteran actor who is also a veteran artist for that matter, and he's going to be providing us insights on what the concept is all about, his experience of working in the film industry as well as the drama industry, and his experience of working in some of the best institutions of performing arts in the country. So I'm joined by artist and cultural activist and a veteran cultural activist at that, Mr. Jamal Shah. Mr. Jamal Shah, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Thank you very much Hamza. Thanks for inviting me. Well, it's great to have you here with us, sir. Now, tell us about celebrations of a dehumanized existence. I mean, we're talking about the vivid artwork that you've managed to come up with, and it actually deals with sociopolitical themes. So what was the message that you were trying to convey, and how does your work relate to social political realities? Well, Hamza, dehumanization is never celebrated. It's a paradox, but I mean, it has a shock value. And as an individual brought in bread in Pakistan, I've always felt that, you know, as the Chinese curse say, may you live in interesting times. We've been living in interesting times ever since, and we've been governed by self-imposed decision makers, which is the reason that, you know, themes such as this one occur into people's mind. I personally feel that art is the most effective means of communication, and it's a force that can engage an individual with life very intimately, thereby enables the individual to get intimately informed about things, whether it's the contradictions of your society, the strengths of your society, your struggles, your nightmares, whatever. And in the process, you become aware of this enviable cultural heritage that you are the custodian of. Living in a situation like this, I always felt that, you know, our people are mean and robustly political engagement because our electoral system is deeply flawed, which encourages only the rich and the connected to get to the parliament house to become legislators. So we have been, our lives have been governed by these legislators who have been handpicked by forces that to me are very, very exploitative. That's why my work is very critical because I have chosen to remain critically engaged with life. If you're critically engaged with life, then you see a lot of ill happening around you. So I cannot ignore it. Therefore, it reflects in my art. And my recent work, which is, you've seen the images, these are morgahs, you are from Pakistan, you know what a morgah is when we were children. We used to disobey the master or the teacher in the class. He would order us to become morgah, which means to, you know, transform our self into a very, very painful posture that is not only painful, but also very, very insulting. So I see my entire nation as morgahs, but morgahs are the difference because these morgahs are very, very colorful. And it seems as though they are very happy with their existence, despite all the misery and pain and everything. And they are unable to stand up and try and change their surroundings. So that is the message. And the celebration of dehumanization is, as I said, it's a paradox. It can never happen. But in Pakistan, it seems that we witness it every day in our lives. And the message is for people to get up and try and change their fate. What's a message which is desperately needed in Pakistan, particularly in, you know, contemporary times where there's high unemployment, there are severe economic problems. So the message should be well taken by everyone who has come across Mr. Jamal's work. So you founded the Hunar Qadha College of Visual and Performing Arts and we're also the, you know, Executive Director of the PNCA till 2019. Tell us about both institutions and the contributions to the performing arts industry. Hamza, when I graduated from National College of Arts, I went back to my hometown equator to set up the finance department in Balustan University, got there and headed the department for three and a half years. Then I got a scholarship to study art in the UK, Slayer School of Art. I went there, studied art and came back with a mission that I'll set up an art school simply because, you know, I was totally disgusted with the repeated regimes who were never interested in promoting art and culture. So I thought I should at least do my bit. So I set up this art school which is the first and still only truly not-for-profit non-governmental art school. The idea was to try and promote and propagate art with the intention that art can be and always is, you know, an agent of change, the art that, the pedagogy of art that focuses on social change. So that's what we do at Onakada as for PNCA. I was hired by PNCA in 2007 because there was a crisis and they wanted me, my input. I spent one year there and I came back and then in 2016 they wanted me again. They offered me a three-year contracts and they said that you can transform the institution because you are involved in both visual and performing arts and we need your input. I joined the institution with great hopes that I'll be able to, you know, turn PNCA into a truly autonomous institution of art because that is what is needed because institutions like PNCA can never be run by the governments. I spent three years there and I tried to, you know, change the structure of PNCA but I have failed miserably but still, you know, during these three years I gave them very good programming and some very, very consequential ideas such as the, you know, one was able to introduce or to convince the government to adopt the first cultural policy of Pakistan that happened during my tenure and then I did a very big program called CPAC Cultural Karwan where 12 Pakistani and 12 Chinese artists started their journey from which is the oldest capital of China and they're looking at different little points and interacting with local artists and doing transformative works. So that was a very successful project because it dealt with both visual arts and performing arts, music, theater, dance, cinema, et cetera, et cetera. And it was very well received. Dramas as well, sorry? Dramas as well. Yeah, dramas as well, of course, theater. That was very successful and I remained there for three years. They offered the extension but I didn't want to continue because I had other better things to do. So that's what I did in PNC and that's what I'm doing at Unur-Khada right now. Fantastic. So author Dr. Rahat Naveed Masood in a review of celebrations of a dehumanized existence. She states that there is a deep connection between art and politics in your work. Now you mentioned this already in the first question but when we talk about this connection between art and politics, how would you define that? Well, Hamza, art can never be a political because for any cultural artists throughout the history whether it is Michelangelo, Caravaggio or Van Gogh or Corbe, myself, Goya, Picasso, et cetera, et cetera. All of them were people who had a very keen eye they were engaged deeply with the concerns of the time whether that was Da Vinci or Michelangelo or whatever, they knew what the politics of the et cetera. So you have to begin with an aware person, an aware individual of society and also concern. So if you're concerned and you're also aware and you believe in transforming this life into an aesthetic existence, then you're bound to include everything in your art. Your art doesn't remain just entertainment or beautification of walls or squares or et cetera, et cetera. It embodies messages which are focused on the better of society because I would like to live in a situation where everybody benefits from similar, what would I say? Concerns and facilities and et cetera, et cetera. What I mean is that there should be equality. Only that can bring harmony in your life and people can be happy. I mean it is very disturbing to see that sitting in my studio I can enjoy life at a very, very luxurious level but outside my studio there's poverty, there's misery, there's everything else. So that is not on. And you think that art can bridge such social equities or inequities if I would like to say to the point where you could actually see a more egalitarian society. You think art can play that role if that message is actually portrayed? I think art has the power which enables an individual to get engaged with life very, very intimately. And it's that intimacy that informs you about your past, your present, your struggles, your achievements, your nightmares and everything. And you become an aware person. As you attain awareness, you become brave. As you become brave, you become interested in sharing. You start being stingy. So when you become a productive being, then you're bound to become an agent of change. And all your energies are focused on trying to bring about positive changes in society which can beautify life, which can make your surroundings into a better place for living. So let's come to it. Art does that, of course. It definitely does. And the message has to be portrayed in a very impactful manner. And your artwork has definitely done that. So tell us about the 1989 British television serial Graphic that was nominated for six British Academy Awards and won three of them. What was the message in that particular television series? And how was your experience working in it? I think I was very fortunate to have been selected for the part that I played Fazal, who was the Poppy Grower. They interviewed about 300 individuals in Pakistan for that part. And I was the lucky and the blessed who got this part. And I, working with the crew of Traffic and Alastair Reed, who was the director, it was through and through a learning process I learned a lot and traffic itself. The content was very, very authentic because it dealt with the situation, that was the reflection or reaction or product of Afghan jihad, the so-called jihad, which never was a jihad, where heroin was used as a weapon, not only by the militants to get money, but by the other forces to depoliticize the youth in Pakistan and of course, in Afghanistan. But since I'm concerned with Pakistan, I know that there were many, many brilliant friends of mine who became heroin addicts and they lost their lives. So the content was about the drug trail of heroin from this part of the world to Europe, to UK and Germany. And I was sharing screen space with the great actors, worked under a great director. And it was a beautiful opportunity for me. I enjoyed it thoroughly, I learned a lot. And it's opened gateways for me as an actor. They thought while acting, the director and others would say that you are next to Masheri. Okay. Anyways, there were many other offers. Sorry. That's quite a compliment, by the way. It was a compliment, of course, Masheri was a great actor and my favorite too. But traffic became a very effective introduction for me in the world of cinema. And I got many, many offers, which were great. But some of them I had to refuse because those parts, which were great parts, had detailed scenes in them. And I told my agent, Jean, I love this part, but if I did this part, I won't be able to enter my hometown later. And not only my immediate family would be scandalized, but my entire plan will be scandalized because of this part. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do such parts. Please give me parts which are safer. So then I got a few safe parts in the Hollywood film called K2 and some other films were offered to me and I had agreed to doing that, but they never took off. And then later, in 2016, I directed my own film, Revenge of the Worthless, which is based on the Siege of Swat by the Taliban in 2009. That was, if you see this film, you'll realize that this is perhaps one of the most detailed and objective account of the menace of the Taliban. Yeah, absolutely. And the Swat operation is pretty much vivid in everyone's memory, the living memory for that matter. And it's a great thing that Pakistan has managed to overcome the terrorism menace in that valley specifically. And it's hoped that terrorism is overcome across the country. So, Mr. Jamal, which script or series do you believe stands out in terms of sending a strong meaningful message to the society in your illustrious career? And what are the major takeaways that should be highlighted in ideal script? I think traffic is one of them. And then in Pakistan, some of my television plays called Palesha, Tapesh, Kinare, these were the productions which had, you know, the content was very, very meaningful because it was reflecting the ethos of our people, the problems of our society. And I was satisfied that I'm not just entertaining people. Through my part that I'm playing or through this content that I'm part of. I'm also communicating with our people and perhaps, you know, initiating a dialogue with society. So these were the parts that the scripts that were very, very good simply because of the authenticity and relevance to our society, to our problems and the dichotomies of our time. Okay. So when we talk about dichotomies of our time, Pakistan is today in a state of flux and a state of chaos. The economy is tanking. Social injustices have become more pronounced and they're taking place. There's also widespread discontent from, you know, the majority of the population which lives in poverty as a highly acclaimed activist yourself. Now, I've spoken to Jamal Shah, the actor. Now I want to speak to Jamal Shah, the activist. Where do you think the problem lies? Well, unless and until we are able to, you know, send true representatives of society to the houses of legislation, which are parliament and senate, et cetera, things will not change because the lot that we get now are totally compromised. They're either the elite of the society, the rich of the society or the well connected, you know, electables who are not concerned at all about the contradictions or the miseries of the society or the miseries of the people. These are the people who when they enter the parliament house, they enter in a showcase with a name tag and prize that this is our prize and you can buy us. So these are totally compromised people. And it's because of them that there is a lot of, you know, economic disparity in Pakistan. There's joblessness. There's discontent. I think in Pakistan, we have to change the system and transform it into a system which respects the constitution of Pakistan. At the moment, the institutions, the salaried people of Pakistan have become the decision makers who otherwise they don't have any business to do that. But the so-called elected elite or the compromised elite are just cronies of these salaried officers in different departments of Pakistan. Do you think Jean-Jacques Rousseau's concept of popular sovereignty should reign supreme? Absolutely. Absolutely. We need a revolution. But revolution doesn't come like a hailstorm. You have to work for it. You have to educate your people like the education, the revolution of Chairman Mao and so many other people. You know, you need sincere people like Nasser Mandela who are the lovers of your style and the lovers of people, not the selfish self-centered elite who have been brought by the so-called establishment. And there are so many people. Yeah, absolutely. Finally, Mr. Jamal, what is your message for young artists, aspiring actors and activists who are living through tumultuous times to make something out of themselves? I mean, there are plenty of young artists or aspiring artists out there and actors who don't necessarily get a chance to showcase their talent. So what would your message of motivation be for them and how can they really polish their careers? Well, Hamza, I try not to give sermons to youngsters because the youngsters are very energetic. They just need to get connected with the realities of time. They should become aware of their challenges, their potential, their problems. And, you know, start working with the commitment that their work is going to transform the society. I think our youngsters are very, very talented and have all the hope and optimism that they'll turn around Pakistan into a much better place to exist. Thank you so much, Mr. Jamal Shah. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. That's all from me, Hamza Rifat for Islamabad today on Think Tech Hawaii. You can follow us on our social media pages for all the latest updates. Until next time, take care.