 Very, very glad to know you're still there. Thanks for staying with us. We're going to take our hot topic this morning and Nigeria records improvement in first corruption perception index and that Tinnaboo is what we're talking about. Now we're being joined by Dr. Ibrahim Oshinowo, member, APC Presidential Campaign Council 2014-2019-2023. Good morning Dr. Oshinowo and welcome to the program. Good morning to you guys in the studio and good morning Nigeria, nice to see you again. Yes, it's also a pleasure here seeing you. Okay, we are now on the 145th spot in this corruption perception index. To some people, it's a win that has to be celebrated. To some people, it's a shame that we are just 35 spots shy of the last spot in this corruption perception index. Out of 180 countries, we are 145. I'd like to know what you think about this ranking of Nigeria at the 145th spot. Okay, thank you so much for having me from Capital Territory. I would like to state that the thought, we need to know the organization that is coming over the ranking profiling and what are the samples, what are the indices they use to determine the position of our country. Don't forget that we have no other country that this country called Nigeria and our legions should be to this country. Number one, a lot of indices, a lot of samples needs to be taken to come up with statistical evidence that shows that we are in number 40, either number 48 or which number they come up with. 145. 145. So, we need to look holistically into a lot of factor. We need to look at the environmental factor. We need to look at the geopolitical factor of each each continent. We need to look at the risk management and path analysis of each countries and continents. We need to look at the financial warehousing of each each country. For instance, I've said this in so many forums, including at Zera, that the West had the major issue, had the major financial warehousing for listed funds for West Africa and other developing countries. I've said that in the international arena, most of the listed funds that escaped from the developing states like Congo, South Africa, Ghana, Penne, including Nigeria, are deposited in the Western country like Switzerland, France, UK, the United States, the other countries. So, these are the indices that we need to analyze thoroughly for us to even decide and determine the statistical evidence they are able to show on the so-called result. However, this country and this administration has been responsive in terms of cognizant response to any flashpoint. For instance, a minister, a ranking minister, for instance, a minister of the federal cabinet was suspended on just a lot or cry out by Nigerians in a bunch of processes under the federal civil service rule. This is a well-performing index for this administration. Secondly, one of the biggest countries and the richest man in Africa is being interrogated by this administration. That has never happened before. While Jonathan Obasanjolo, nobody had the effrontery or the audacity to query Tanguti conglomerates, but this administration has investigated and continued to investigate what transpired over the years with Tanguti. So these are steps that this administration has been taking and I will call on all meaningful Nigerians to support the administration because these are both steps. For instance, this government is able to reduce the global and fraudulent scabar, scabars effort on subsidy. Importing a fuel, we will subsidize fuel here in Nigeria and the same fuel and the same product will be transported to Cameroon, DJ, Ghana and other neighboring states. At a subsidized rate, this administration is able to stop that. It takes a lot of political effort, political sagacity and intellectual mobile leadership to be able to face this order. Why couldn't you do it? Why couldn't you do it? Why couldn't you do it? Actually, they came and they told them that this subsidy is gone out of almost 130 million population of good people of Nigeria. Fuel less than 100 has milk us to over $9 trillion in the last 10 years of subsidy. So what are we talking about? Who are these people coming up with this vulgar and artistic position for Nigeria? I think we are doing well. I would like to stop at that. Let me take you on some points that you raised. You talked about the fact that when you are looking at the indices that was used to bring about these results, you need to consider a lot of things in the countries that you are assessing as it were, and you have to consider environment and so many other things that you mentioned. What does environment got to do with corruption? Some were collecting bribe. It's not because the sun is shining too much or the rain is falling too much. What does environment got to do with corruption? Because these are the things that you mentioned that should have been considered before they give you the result that they gave you. What do they have to do with the fact that our nation is corrupt and we are trying to look for solutions for it? If you want to talk about solution and corruption, one needs to be very, very vigilant and observant. Don't forget about the western politics on West Africa. Don't forget the history of Congo. And don't forget the history of why some military junta take over governance in other West African states. You know, a lot of factors come so. For instance, if you are talking about the Bloomberg report, that has a statistic needs to show how you come about with the ranking of East East country. For instance, in South Africa, the government of South Africa is acquiring, you know, the former president of the country, acquiring the amount spent on foreign diplomacy from ministry of foreign affairs of South Africa. So the global corruption indices needs to be holistically looked into before you arrive in Nigeria. And however, you know, I don't want us to waste our time on this western, you know, practical way of, you know, attacking our dignity. I don't want us to name our emphasis. But I believe that domestically we must look into those factors. A lot of factors. If you are saying Nigeria is corrupt, United Kingdom is corrupt. Because most of over 400 billion, over 4 billion pounds in three years has been deposited in the British Peninsula system. So why do they allow the foreign illicit form from developing states to come into the system? And most of them, they don't release it. They don't release those things. They don't just come and discuss Nigeria is corrupt, Nigeria is bad, Nigeria is this, Nigeria is that. What are the data analysis? We need to, they need to show us who is this organization coming up with all these things. So these are the discussions that we need to look into. So are you saying because they come from this organization that should be discredited? Because the people who brought this out, for instance, let's say CISLAC, which is like an arm of the NBA of Nigeria. And there are some other organizations in Nigeria that sourced for all these things around the globe and saw the parameters that were used and all that, and then brought out this figure that this is what it is. So are you saying these parameters that were used are not supposed to be used for Nigeria? Is that what you're saying? And before you even answer that, the scripture, let me, sorry, let me use that. The Bible says that do we sin so that continuing sin so that grace may abound? Is it because that they are, why are we using institutions that are receiving the monies and the corruption items in their countries? Why are we even referencing them here? Because if you say I can't continue to steal, because after all you are the one who has been housing my money when I steal. It doesn't mean it doesn't look like someone who wants a solution to the problem. Just because they are receiving it, do we continue to do what we are doing because the Western nations are not being sincere themselves? They are not the ones who are facing the inflation now. They are not the ones who are facing the hardship in Nigeria right now. If they are receiving our money because we are giving to them, yes, they are corrupting their own, but why would we need to reference them when we are trying to get solutions to our problems? I will tell you that it's what the Cogloba might gain by reducing the Western state's dignity into zero by letting us see ourselves as a poor and irregular nation. Now, the CISLAC you mentioned and the MBA, we did respect to some of my friends who are in the MBA. MBA itself, in the annual general meeting, the second vice president of the secretary accused the chairman of MBA of corruption in lots of things needs to be dealt with by coming into the public forum to discuss about the indices that Nigeria is 34, Nigeria is 101 million and 4. These are mind games. We need data. CISLACs, what have you done? Where are you coming from? What is, when you are doing the statistical data analysis, what are the inflation rates in this country? How are the responsiveness? How much have been recovered by the antigraft agency? What are the returnings that have been made by the present government and the previous government? What are the fund escape loopholes? Recently, the Nigerian government is tightening up its taxes revenue. It's tightening up its payment platforms and the rest of it. So, limits are being measured on most of the payment outreach to even the companies and private sectors. So, most of these western countries coming to our country, a mining sector, oil and gas, construction and the rest of it are the category without money. In fact, telling Nigerians to bring money into their countries. So, we need to look holistically. I want to remain, I want to continue to hammer on that point that this data, where do they stop it from? And they're measuring it on numbers of the government, on the government, on the government, on the world's government and now the present government. So, these are the things that we want to do. You know, I'm an academician. I love to work with data. I love to play with data. So, if you are saying that you are placing Nigeria on 145 or 146, what number is the United Kingdom? What number is the United States? What number is the Netherlands? What number is Finland? Another Caribbean state, where illicit funds are presently deposited. So, these are the discussions that we must make. I'm not encouraging that Nigerians should not, you know, disease from, you know, taking our scarce resources abroad. But these present governments are proving to me and other, you know, women in Nigerians that they are off to the task to tackle, you know, the anti-corruption process. I just gave you few examples. You know, a minister just an attempt to send just about half a billion to a private account and she has been suspended. And hopefully she's gone. And if you can do some, you know, investigative journalism into the present government, you'll find out that every minister is sitting tight. And the committee has been raised also to look into their affairs. So, these are the discussions that we must make. This is our country. We must be, we must be especially clear to all these, you know, Jankara, Detab, firms that are just coming out with fabulous figures of positional ranking. So, we must be careful about, you know, promoting them. That's what I'm saying. Now, let's just forget about the western countries that may be giving us figures that, like you say, may not be as good as they should be. If you were to rank Nigeria on corruption, what would you rank it? Let's forget about other administrations. We're talking about almost a year of the present administration. And this is the first time this ranking has come out. We don't care what figures were in the previous administration of Buhari or Jonatan or anything. We're talking about now, because it is now that we are in. They scored, Nigeria scored in all those parameters. They scored 25, we scored, not there. We scored 25 out of 100 points. That's 25% of the entire point. So, regardless of what the parameters are, how would you rate Nigeria on the corruption perception index if you were to rate Nigeria? You know what, I'm not going to ban, you know, I'm not going to ban around, you know, ranking figures or, you know, telling you that Nigeria is, you know, 75% in the grade of, you know, 1 to 100. But I would tell you a lot of things that, like I said, I'm going to go back. I am a data man. I am, you know, an academician and a researcher. That's the problem. The problem is that we let the western nations or any other nation to give us the data that we should have had. So what data does Nigeria have that can give us... They should not give us data. Which one do we have? Which one do we have to counter the data, the false data, if I may, that is coming from external sources? Which data do we have in Nigeria? Because that not having data is part of corruption. You want to do population. You don't know the population of, say, Nassarawa state. So you cannot even give a policy that will be good enough for the people of Nassarawa because you don't know their number. People are inflating it because they want to get gains from the federal government and so on. So what data do we have in Nigeria to counter the false or misleading data coming from external forces? That's what gives us worry. And you are a data man. So what do we do? Now, let me give you about the data analysis issue of this country. And it started from 1960. You know, British, for instance, has been having the data on debt and debt since 1842. Data is not something that you are going to come up in 10 years, in 15 years, and you are going to have the accuracy. You know, debt, debt, debtor, great definition for all security agencies, all the financial institutions, and allow government to plan holistics on its citizens. Now, we just started NIMS, NIMC, recently to capture that. In fact, a lot of people in Nigeria, 20 years ago, we have, I have almost about 5 lines. Around 12,000 and 4. So much 10 lines. But the effort of government has reduced that. Any line, any mobile number you are having now has to be linked with your data. You have to open your back account with your data. These things have been honed in the Western states and the European states for more than 100 years. So if you have to give it to the Nigerian government, try to harmonize our data into our passport issuance, into our financial system, into our security system, into our, you know, mobile and communication system. These are the efforts that will grow over the time that will give you a level of foundation, you know, the data, you know, bang for the country. So we should wait for like another 200 years before we can have this data. No, I'm not saying that. As we speak now, the population census has not been done. It was supposed to have been done. I'm coming into that. Don't forget that because of the general election last year, the census commission could not do that. And hopefully, they will do it this year. Or next year, a lot of factors, you know, will play in. Now, the population census, instead of, you know, capturing, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a squeeze, you know, format. Any debt, any debt in this continues to be registered by the agency. That's the reason why the Western states have, you know, hackers. Even most of the investors are not hackers, but they are almost about 70% good. So these are the things that take over the years into their financial portfolio, into their data analysis. And, you know, risk management portfolio to know that, okay, this is where this is a month of people that is going to be giving best this year. This is the age range that the government needs to plan for. This is the comeback of the hatred that government needs to look into their welfare. So these are the major issues that will come out to see in the system. In this country now, for a minister to make a attempt to send over 490 million to a personal account, that will not happen in the West. Because the financial system, the financial regulation will not even allow the transaction to fly in the first place. So I'm not saying that Ranking is not good, but we need to see the effidensia pool of data that says that Nigeria almost less and less assumed 1 trillion as capital fried as left Nigeria in 2022. Out of this 1 trillion, certain percentage is in the UK, is in the Western States, is in Switzerland, Switzerland, France, another state of the European Union. So these are the discussions that over time will most analyze. Nobody would just come and say Nigeria is number 300. Nobody would just come and say Nigeria is rating 25% out of 100. That is fallacy. That is self discussion. It doesn't make any scientific or academic proof. For instance, I've given you, we don't forget also we are a developing nation. Here we still have the issue of power. Here we still have the issue of growth construction. Here we still have the issue of health system in this country. Here we don't have benefit for hedges, for elderly ones. Here we don't have child support. All these amenities, you know, disturbed by the Western States are coordinated by the government. So why is it so difficult in Nigeria to do these things? What I'm trying to say. Why is it so difficult to do these things? Because we cannot wait for 200 years to get these things right. Because the same way I'm making call on my phone in Nigeria is the same way the British man is making call on his phone in Britain, even though they had these phones before us. So we cannot wait and see because they started first, we cannot do this. Why not we look for homegrown solutions to what we are doing and then find a way around it to get data. But it seems as if this data is the one that makes everybody to, for instance, the minister that brought about the NIN has been part of the people who were crowdfunding a ransom payment for a friend of theirs. And he promised us that when this NIN comes they are going to use it to track hoodlums, bandits, kidnappers, all those people and all that. And then everybody, every Nigerian wanted it and we did it. We have BVN, we have NIN. You go to the passport office, you still have to do one or two things and all that. It doesn't seem as if we are deliberate about gathering our data, having a data bank that will help us track things. In fact, yesterday it was on the news that the security people are saying that they are not able to track criminals because they don't have gadgets in Nigeria, a very rich country. So we just wonder why is it so difficult to have this data and when we have the data, why is it so difficult to use the data for the purpose for which they should be used? Thank you. There is no way we will discuss and be patriotic without looking into our domestic issues. First, every minister of the federal government of Nigeria needs to know that his allegiance is to the constitution and to the country, not to his or her tribe or geopolitical zones. And that's why in so many fora, I have made few calls that we should remove the state group. I'm from Akwaibom state, I'm from Karno state, I'm from Ogun state. That's the constitution that should not allow that. If you are born on this land, you are Nigerian first and nothing more. And the zone, six geopolitical zones should be expunged from the constitution so that everybody occupying any appointment in the state of the federal government would know that first is from Nigeria. Is that in the constitution, the six geopolitical zones? That's of patriotism. Are the six geopolitical zones in the constitution or is just a function of convenience? That's bullshit. There is nothing like six geopolitical zones. Everybody is in Nigeria. The sense of patriotism will naturally increase. If I am the minister of communication, the first thing my family or my ethnic line will call me is that I should increase, or I should increase the data of the North West. If another one from the South South comes, the ethnic group, the others will be calling him to further increase the data or reduce the data of others to economic gain and government benefit. So these are the internal issues that we are having in terms of data gathering. The minister you referenced is a brilliant guy, is a fantastic guy, but he lost it by being, you know, ethnically, you know, a Sikh. He's more of, you know, a tribe agenda. How can a security company, a security apparatus of this country says that somebody make a pocket, you kidnapped someone and you made a call for a ransom. And the security agency could not track where that call was made from and who is making that call. That's absurd. You can have the calls here. You can get in here. If you make any call, the security officer will know the time, the location, the house number, the street number. You made that call. So these are our home internal issues that I'm calling on the federal government and the minister of communication of Boswell Tijani to look into. This is not a tribal issue. It's a national security issue that must look into. So that people will not just come up on their coffee table and around calls and keep us and dish out any number for us without evidential, statistic, you know, proving or evidence on the table. So these are the discussions. So the minister you referenced on was a brilliant guy, but he lost it when he applied tribal sentiment on major national issue. That is where we are today. However, the government must continue. The new minister must ensure that the data analysis of this country and the data garden of this country is done nationally, not by tribe. The new minister is from my state. It's on the southwest Nigeria. The last one is from the north central, not east. So if anybody is doing what they need to do, so we must, you know, if anybody is near to the Constitution, we will go far over the years. But I'm telling you, to get an accurate data in Nigeria will take us nothing less than 30 years. So we need to amend the Constitution to fit into, you know, the nationhood and, you know, the patriotism of all Nigerians, you know, Nigerians to be loyal to their country and stop saying I am from the southwest and from the east and from the west and from the north. We need to be a Nigerian force. What happens, I'm telling you, any minister that comes into office will ensure that those data are for Nigerians, not for its tribe. Okay. Just finally, if you were to advise the president on the way to go in fighting corruption in Nigeria, what are some of the things, the pointers that you will give to him, apart from what you think that he is doing right now? Kudos to Mr. President, yes, he's making a very fantastic effort to ensure that we reduce, you know, the escape of, you know, our scarce resources. For instance, I'm able to digest what he did with NMPC by moving the Kudor payment platform to CBN. That's a fantastic one. So we need to know how much is coming into the country and forming itself. So any payment for Kudor should go directly to CBN, not NMPC. Also, in terms of taxes, so my dear brother, Mr. Isiakai, is doing fantastically well, you know, trying to harmonize and close the loop so in terms of collection of taxes and revenue for the government. Also, I would suggest to the president that most of the MBAs and agencies of government, you know, the payment platform should be rigorously monitored by the anti-craft agencies and, you know, coordinate the central payment platform for all of them so that it will not be easy for anybody to siphon their scarce resources. And also I would advise the, you know, the ICPC and the ESCC to do more on what they call, you know, investment investigation. And other people call it, you know, economic investigation. You know, you can be investigating somebody who stole 100 billion and your agency, your investigator, if demanded for 5%, the investigation is dead on a river. And I'm appreciative that most of the investigators have been investigated right now because some of these people that they're investigating are offering them, or, you know, a month that they could not even gather in 35 years in service, so most of them are compromised. So the ESCC should do more and go on digital investigative, you know, profiling of their suspect and ensure that they get justice for their assets. So I showed you should continue on this path. It must be able to determine those people who have plugged this country into this economic calamity. You can imagine a dollar to a nera. It's 1500 nera, 1400 nera. So where are we? People are crying, people are suffering, masses are bleeding, bleeding so bad. So we need to assure you, we need Mr. President to continue on this path and reduce the economic calamity of this country. So I will encourage them to do more, fund the ESCC, ICPC has me do some, not me doing much. So we need to know what their challenges are. So the National Security Advisor should come up with other policies that will curb corruption in our country. Every country has their own problem. Thank you so much Dr. Shinowo for your thoughts on the matter. Well, we thank God for small messes, no matter how little the steps maybe, we'll still applaud the government that we are making progress and we hope that the progress will be more in the coming years. Thank you for being a part of our program this morning. It's Dr. Ibrahi Moschinovo, member APC Presidential Campaign Council in 2014, 2019 and 2023. He was talking about the fact that Nigeria is now around 140 feet in the Corruption Perception Index and this eventually is where we're wrapping up the show this morning. I would like to thank you for your time staying with us still at this moment. Let's do it again tomorrow. My name is Nyangu. Thank you. Bye for now.