 Order the November 14th meeting of the Montpelier Planning Commission. We first have to approve the agenda. So if I can get a motion for that from Planning Commissioner. I move that we have the agenda. Okay, we have a motion from Gabe. Do we have a second? Second. I'm going to take Ari on second, as opposed to Aaron's Bert. And so we have a motion from Gabe and a second from Ariane. Those of you who are approving the agenda say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. Okay, for two nights, we have a few things to go through. Next on the agenda is comments from the chair. The only thing we have, I don't want to hold things up because I know we have some visitors. The only thing we have. That's not on the agenda is there is a municipal planning grant. Application that we need to approve of. And I think I'll need to sign. Mike has the detail. So, so Mike, why don't you explain. What's going on with that? Yes, we didn't have anybody who we didn't have any projects that were on our list for municipal planning grants, but the public works department came over and said they had worked with. A company that does basically light our imaging of the roadways. And they've done this for other communities and they've used municipal planning grant funds to help pay for it. We use it to offset some of our costs for our pavement quality index. So every three years we go through and re basically drive down the road with high resolution cameras and take pictures of the roads. And then determine where it's most important for us to do crack ceiling where it's important to do certain things. So. DPW wanted to go and use the funds municipal planning grant for that. So I told them it was going to be fine. So we're doing a kind of a rush application really quick on that. So we're going to council on Wednesday. To get the application idea approved and the other piece that needs to happen is Kirby needs to sign it. Recognizing the approval of the planning commission. So. So is everyone okay with DPW using. This planning grant. For the roads. Yeah. Okay. Let's vote then. Can we have a motion to. Support mob healers application for. For a municipal resolution for a municipal planning grant. I so move. Okay. Do we have a second. Second. Second from my own. Okay. Those in those in favor of the motion say aye. Okay. There we go. Just for the logistics mic. You mean a print and sign it. What do you want me to do? Yeah, if you could just sign it and scan it and send it back to me, then I can have that to bring to council to have them. Sign it. Okay. Okay, I'll do that sooner tomorrow. All right. Sounds good. So the next on the agenda is we have general business. I don't believe we have anyone here that's not on the agenda, but if anyone's here for any comments for something that's not on the agenda. Now's the time. Okay. So nothing you takers there. The next thing on the agenda is. An update about reappointments. I am aware of one person who's applied and. Is seen to be approved by the city council and not putting you on the spot at all, but it's it's it's Brian Mills who's in the chat now. So Brian and I met last week. He's a great background for what we need. He's done lobbying with among many things in his queries. He's done lobbying with local governments. You know, the kind of outreach stuff that we've kind of pulled our hair out about before. We're going to just make him do it all. So, that'll teach me, that'll teach me. So, so welcome to meeting Brian. Thank you for applying awesome. No, I look forward to it. Thanks everybody. Yeah. And we, you know, we have the other empty seat and I believe we're on you mentioned that you knew somebody might be interested. Yeah, I'll know I don't, you know, she said she might be interested, but I'll follow up because I'll see her this week so I'll see. How far that goes. Yeah, I'm hopeful. Really hopeful. And I like that you said she because you don't have balance representation right now. So that's awesome. Okay, so that's that's it about that. So next on the agenda is the update from SE group. So I'll just hand it over to Mike and Aiden and Julia for that. Thank you. I am a night call from SE group I see some familiar faces but many more faces than our last planning commission meeting so thank you all for being here. I will hand it over to Julia to introduce herself and to give an update from sort of a bigger picture side. We have incorporated Mike and Kirby's comments from the previous planning commission meeting thank you for sending those over. We have an updated version of the historic resources chapter, and a new version of the economic development chapter. And Julia will kind of walk through sort of what decisions were made what questions we have, and where we're at with our others, we do have some data requests out right now for some of that energy and housing and some of that data is kind of trickling in. But we'll be able to highlight a few places where we need more data, more photos, and we can kind of workshop that with the group about the best source, or just kind of hold our horses until Mike and the regional planning commission can provide data and background for us. Julia, go for it. Thank you for that. Thank you for having us this evening. I work with Aiden on the community planning team at SE Group, and we're excited to share with you our progress on this project. So, this is the right screen that I'm sharing. Yes. Can everyone see my screen here? Great. So, as Aiden mentioned, we have the revised historic resources chapter, a new economic development chapter. And I also have an old draft of the historic resources chapter so we can just compare changes that way that maybe the easiest way to see the changes. But just to give an overview of the major changes from the initial draft from last time, we got some great feedback from Mike and Kirby that mostly related to, you know, making sure that the story maps conform to the existing outlines for the plan chapters that you all have reviewed as part of the city plan. So, highlighting things like the relationship to other between this chapter and other chapters in the plan, and things like who is responsible for carrying this out in addition to city staff who are the players involved. So, a big outline that we're now working with, thanks to Mike's input, is we're sort of opening, I'll just scroll through as I talk about this outline that we can look at it in more detail. We start with, you know, some small bites is what we can call it here just like a little verse of text that introduce a bit about what this topic is about. We can provide any definitions that might be necessary. And also provide sort of a visual context for the topic that we're talking about so historic resources we're showing pictures of historic buildings here. And then following that section we move into background. This can be more of a map focused section showing any relevant spatial data that has been collected thus far or provides good context for the topic that we are reviewing in this story map. So, as an example here we have the historic district shown. This is also an opportunity, you know, just following this section to, or within this section to link to existing efforts that have already taken place. So, you know, in the, as we edit these chapters and really fill them out. That's absolutely something that we can add one of the great things about this story map platform is we can add these hyperlinks like this. And, you know, it's a good way of making sure that this document relates to things that already exist without it, you know, being too bogged down with that information. Next is the players basically who who's helping out with this. In this section, we've called it synergies here. This is a, you know, tab that can link to this section. But this is what's called in the in the plan chapter, I think it's how this chapter relates to other plan chapters so we'll just shorten that a bit here, but this section is, kind of connected to show the ways, sort of resources for example relates to housing, energy, and other initiatives of the plan that don't have their own chapter but you know are obviously important to the city like health and safety. Next is the goals and aspirations section. We've presented this in two different ways in the historic resources and economic development section so be great to have your input on which version you prefer. This summarizes, you know, the intentions that are laid out in the end of each plan section. And then finally, there is a link to implementation and I think this is, you know, remains to be seen how we will incorporate implementation here I think we're sort of waiting on on the rest of the document here and it'll be an ongoing conversation I think with the city with Mike to figure out what are the things that the city would like to show in terms of progress on the plan implementation and you know what is ongoing updates to this section at the end here look like. So those are really fast overview of the basic outline for this. I'll also just scroll through the economic development one so you can get an idea of how it looks for that chapter, and then we can look at either chapter or both chapters at a slower pace and more and more detail. So, got a similar map there. So here's economic development and I want to say, I used all these photos from monthly real life so before this would be launched publicly would need to get permission for those but you know these are really high quality photos of Montpelier and I think they show how important it is to have you know this really awesome shots of the place and definitely you know the people enjoying place so. I'll just scroll through here. Not at a pace where we could read anything but just to get a sense of what this is looking like. So, this is a background section we are another piece of feedback that we can return to once we begin discussing this is whether this section is background information should move down to this map focus section to kind of prove that that information there. So, again, this is the map focus section to to show the background and progress that's been made on economic development. This section will explain things like the designated downtown status. This is a designated growth center, the players. And we've got synergies again. In this version we incorporated a couple images that relate to the different chapters so those being transportation and historic resources. And this is the goals and aspirations section so instead of, you know this center justified text section. This is a more image focus version of this so it'd be great to hear which version you prefer. I think you know the advantage here is this is a bit more engaging visually appealing to look at, but it does involve more scrolling on the left. So, following this goals and aspirations section. I've identified some just additional strategies these are things that are mentioned in the chapter that you know don't fall under that goals and strategies section. But they are, you know things that are mentioned in the chapter that the city would like to work on and grow. So I've included them here, I think they could go in a different spot as well maybe implementation. And then as we mentioned before implementation comes at the end and this is something that the city will be able to update in time to show progress on the plan. So that was a lot of scrolling. I know that wasn't enough time to read through things. Are there any initial questions or things that people would like to look at again. Well yeah thank you so much Julia this this is actually really wonderful. It's a great first impression. So yeah planning commissioners do you have any. Anything you want to look at again or any initial feedback here. And so this is like, these are the landing pages for each of the chapters, and then they'll to be determined sort of strategy section where it'll get into details on the strategy and also where the city would track is that sort of we're talking about. Yeah, that's right. And what is here right now is a reflection of the plan chapters that have already been written so all about text. Yeah, and then they will link to the more precise, the full plan chapter and also the more precise implementation strategies looks that looks really good. Yeah, I would say it looks great. And maybe you mentioned this and I just missed it but what's going to be in the synergies tab are you just going to sort of like link to the other ones that are most closely related to that chapter. So the synergies section is still going to be here and we will link to the different plan chapters. But this is really just summarizing how this chapter relates to the whole plan. And this is actually a chapter section and each of the existing plan chapters. So this isn't like new content that we are creating. We're adapting it from the from the plan chapters. Yeah, so, so yeah to clarify there are on it. You remember how we had in each chapter we have a section on how does this relate to the other chapters. Yeah, apparently I totally forgot that. So we, I mean, we were talking about what words to use for that when it comes to the web based plan and synergies was one of the ones we threw out there. So it looks like what's the feedback from SE group and what's your feedback for for how things are coming together I mean is synergies a good word is what are your thoughts about the amount of text because I know our chapters have a lot of text is that are we losing people by having that much I mean like what are your opinions. Julia, do you want to take it because I know you had some questions about sort of where things showed up. How best to kind of condense and reorganize some of the existing informations that we had some of those introductions style information bits that kind of led into others. Yeah, I think our, like, one of our main questions and things that be helpful to hear from the group today is if you know it's important to have these chapters as they're laid out in story maps here be identical to each other, because there is, you know, there's just different content that's provided in the in the different chapters. And so one thing that we have found is, you know, there's really great information, for example, about Montpelier is existing conditions for economic development, and it's sort of context in the region. But there's not, you know, there's not a similar section or role for that and historic resources chapter. There's definitely some discussion here about how Montpelier is downtown and you know how intact it is, is unique for the community. But there's not this amount of, you know, discussion about, you know, the actual metrics related to employment, for example, you know what I mean. So this is one thing that we're running into is, you know, we want to provide this information it's really, I think it's important context. It should this be grouped into a background section just below here that would make this section a bit longer and less focused on the map itself. This is something that, you know, can just be adaptable from chapter to chapter like, you know, in this economic development chapter it's here. In another chapter, there might be another special section. So one thing that we'd like to hear today, if you know the group has opinions on the different sections of sections of the plan and they should all be identical here, or just as much as we can. We will have these headings in common across all of the plan chapters. So that will be standard. But yeah, we're just looking for some feedback on that and then maybe we can go into more specifics too. I mean, for me personally, I don't think they need to be absolutely identical. I think that it's, it makes it more intuitive for the reader, if they can expect roughly the same thing on each page. But if we have a little bit more background on one page than another, like I think economic development is one of the ones that stands out as having the most select current context. I don't think the other chapters are going to have as much of that. Yep. What are other people's thoughts? And I can rephrase the question if anybody needs. No, I mean, I agree. I think as much as possible and then, you know, just make adjustments. What they've done is really good, right? The layout of it. By the way, I like the image. I know you're scrolling. I like the economic development image and you're looking for opinions. I don't know if other people have opinions on that, but yeah, that's great. Yeah, we'll have to ask them for their lives if we can use some of these images just for presentation purposes today. You should be able to get them to agree. I would think since we're all on the same team. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like maybe Eric had feedback. Yeah, this Eric Gilbertson I'm chair of the historic preservation commission. And we're applying for a grant from the state certified local government program this year to identify in a broad and general way the historic resources in Montpelier possible districts. In the register. So that there's a summary of, you know, what is historic in the community because I think it says somewhere in this that, you know, all the historic resources have not been identified. I don't look at all the neighborhoods and and have some kind of a general plan for listing those things on on the state register the national register sometime in the future. Thanks Eric. Yeah. So Eric, what is your impression of this kind of draft historic resources page for the. That's great I think it's it's really good that they said we haven't identified all the historic resources in the community. That's important I think the photographs are quite nice. And the focus on the downtown is appropriate but we have so many historic neighborhoods. I think it's great. So to your point Eric there is Julia if you scroll down maybe like two more maps I think there was some missing data and the data request about the location of historic resources and historic structures. If there is more information out there that would be great to see but also if there it's good for us to know that there is a planning process to look at, you know, hit the character of historic neighborhoods and to kind of identify those. But if that does become a GIS data product we can absolutely add it to this story map and I think it would really help paint the picture. So I'll go over a couple of years out with that but I'll look at I think we probably have data on what's listed one way or another it's very haphazard in my pillar, what's actually listed. And what is historic. So. So the information would be great to show here I think you know the intention with this map. As we're, you know just scrolling through it here is to show spatial information that's available for historic resources at a couple different scales. Yeah like one of the advantages to story maps is the ability for this map to zoom in and show different layers at different, you know levels of zoom here, different scales. So, you know, here's the downtown historic district. Then here is the capital complex area. And then with this layer as a measure we're hoping to get some data on available historic resources in this area. You know the purpose of this is not to show that everything's been, you know, evaluated and it's done because as this chapter points out there's still some assessment that needs to happen. But, you know, if we could show just even a sample of some of the known historic resources I think that would be helpful here. I think Meredith particularly on that. And we're lucky at things like the Meadow which is kind of an obvious historic district, along with College Street, and there's a bunch of other ones. Yeah, but we won't we won't really have that information nailed on for a year or two. Meredith Meredith jump in. Um, so just to build on what Eric saying I mean there is for the individual buildings. The city doesn't have a GIS layer to get those buildings that were listed individually outside of the Montpellier downtown district. You know there's a few we know of that we can throw in there. But it may not be at the GIS level right so I'm not quite sure how you would pull that into your data but we'll we'll work on some maps we can definitely pull in the, you know, the state has the GIS boundaries for the state districts and the Meadow, and then down at Granite Shed Lane. So we can point you to where that data layer is. They're not individual buildings their neighborhoods, but we can pull together some stuff I think that would help. Okay, so out of curiosity. Where's a secret pulling the map data so far, but for the things you do that. Yeah, so it is mostly been from the city, we have been submitting data requests for any information that we might need, and that includes photos as well. And there will be a couple of instances I'm sure where we're supplemented with state information I think I did pull from the CGI on this map of the. Yes. Are you aware of that note that we have a planning commissioner who's missing john who works closely with that in his state job. We have been getting some information from the RPC but I don't know what john specific day job is. It's the. Well, I mean, he works for the state doing doing the mapping you're talking about. We and Kirby you might know this from our contract but we do have some money set aside in each phase for essentially like new mapping sort of content creation from from data layers that don't exist. So if we do find that we really want to be able to show something spatially and there isn't a current mapping product that shows that that could fall into that category, if we see that that is important and there's information to support that. But just for this group's knowledge that there is some money in the budget sort of set aside for things like that that may not currently exist but we want to show here. Okay, I think Mike and john would be the two that have the most informed opinions about that. Perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah. Speaking of Mike, Mike, do you have any feedback or impressions. I guess the one thing I was going to mention was regarding the question of the additional data and things looking slightly different between pages. I think, as everyone said I think having the gender some of the general had headers that are the same throughout or are helpful. I would focus on and commissioners. I did send you guys a copy of kind of my notes before I sent them to SE group on what I was thinking, which was to focus make sure we focus on what is the story we're trying to tell I mean these are storyboards. We have a limited amount of landscape, and we really want, you know, if we just kind of ramble through it, it's, you know, people aren't going to get as much out of it. We really wanted to try to focus, like in the historic resources what were the messages we were trying to get across. And I think that's going to help to drive the sum of the content and what we're going to be, you know what we're going to be focusing on I think economic development. If the story we're trying to tell requires us to do things differently than I think we do things a little bit differently you know if we need to talk about data more because that's part of the story then we're going to talk more about data and maybe less about maps. Historic definitely lent itself to having that information displayed through the maps and you know as we said if we get more information to display. That's going to that's going to be helpful. So I think that's where I would go I might put what you guys had put for economic development in the in the background. I think when I was talking about the story board what I had put in for you know for the benefit of some folks who may not have seen it was really to kind of start out at the top with a couple of bites of information with some pictures so that way people could kind of get a quick understanding of you know in this case what's economic development why is it important. It's just to grab people with a couple of things and a couple of pictures to set the stage for what the story is. And then we'd roll into the background and start walking our way through the story. And I think, you know in historic case we kind of had that with this story of trying to get to the fact that you know it's it's historic resources are important. It's special and unique and you know what is it that we're doing to help protect that and that goes back to the story of understanding our resources, making sure the community appreciates our resources and then protecting the resources. And that's kind of that was kind of the story we were trying to tell and if people can understand that after they review the story board then we've been successful I think. And that's how I'm kind of measuring it now economic development is going to be different because it's you know it may not be as place based. So it may only have one map whereas you know the other one might have two or three and I think we just know while they're going to be very similar and they're going to have the same background synergies and goals and aspirations I think the end product. And so I think for for planning commissioners. You have to make sure we have to make sure that we're giving se group, the, the right story, I mean we wrote as we wrote chapters for each one of these but I think we had big ideas and we kind of had to keep squishing them down to get our, our story. I think we're going to have to squish it even more and really get down to. Alright, now we're getting down to these and, you know, I think Kirby's question to se group was good, you know do we think we've got the right length. Are we not overwhelming. Are we kind of at a good space for storytelling. We have to make sure what we're doing is is good and telling the story we want so I think that's that's what I would my my two cents on on generally I think what we've got here is is really good I think we're definitely moving in the right direction and I think we just need to start nailing these down. Mike and for the benefit of everybody, we have been taking some creative liberty on not every chapter word for word is represented on this website. So, having sort of an initial reaction of, okay, like we have some scrolling to do but it's not too much text that someone would, you know, leave the page and not want to read it. We have trimmed down stuff while trying to keep the intent and character of what was written and and potentially move some of the material to like one of those initial little blurbs or it's in the implementation strategy or it's in the additional strategy section. So, because the amount of content goes it is less than what was in the original chapters. So, I'm interpreting what you're saying is that you think it's at a pretty good place in these examples. I personally do I think that there's only so much sort of like visual conversion of some of the information that we're going to have to have a couple paragraphs of text here and there and I think the way that they're broken up and the way that the sections are laid out does to me provide a good balance, knowing that we will have more images and maps in final versions but to me it does break it up enough and provide enough visual diversity or so that I think people would stay engaged. Yeah, I would agree. I think, you know, storm ops is at its best when it really is those like media focused slides, you know where you're just looking at these like a couple words and, you know, the image quality is great and so it can fill the whole screen and it looks really nice. I think this is when story maps is at its best when it's really media focused like this. But, you know, as even said, there's only that we don't want this to be like, you know, a scrolling adventure where people are just scrolling scrolling scrolling scrolling to get to all of the content. So sometimes it's just going to be more efficient to have some blocks of text. So I feel that we've tried to strike that balance and will continue to do that. One question I have as well about, you know, sort of converting the plan chapter to this story map is for the goals and aspirations section. There's I feel there's storytelling that's happening in the story map and then there's also just, you know, trying to draw out some of the high points and like takeaways for people. And in this section, the way I've done that is by numbering different initiatives that start with a strong verb like this. And, you know, that's a liberty I've taken from the plan document. But because this is more of an official section, the goals and aspirations section. I do want to check with the team that that is an okay thing to do. Or if you know there's some explanatory text that we should add here, you know, to explain that this is not verbatim, like, you know, what the goals are this is a summary, or something like that. I'm comfortable with you doing that. I think it is great to let us know, just so we can double check that it's retained the same, you know, meaning this was intended from what we've passed. And as you both probably already know me city council might change some things to which I also have thoughts about that those liberties. I have, I have been sitting and pondering a, a sort of bigger like meta question about who are we writing this for. There's two, there's two groups that are quite different from each other that I'm having in mind and that's a casual user who's curious about what's going on in Montpelier. And then there's the like policy walk type person who wasn't, you know, for whatever their motivations are they want to know the weeds. And it seems like we're like the way that we're telling a story is that's more of like oriented toward a casual person, which is fine for me. But I'm, I'm just wondering how the like walk type person is going to, because what I imagine is those people are going to be the most interested in the strategies, which looks like we're going to have probably on the bottom of each page or like a link to something to link to them on the, like it looks like that's part still up in the air. But that's just kind of that's what I'm thinking about. I'm not uncomfortable about the way it looks like it's laid out now. I'm just wondering if anybody else has thoughts about about those users and what we should be doing. One suggestion I have for that is in the site that will eventually, you know, house these different story maps. We can add a page to that that would describe, you know, different intended audiences for these story maps and how they might like to review them. I wouldn't, you know, necessarily appear on individual pages here, but it could be a resource for people who are visiting the hub site and that's probably, you know, where they'll access these at the beginning. Kirby I think it's a great question and I think in many other projects that question is asked much later so thank you for bringing it up now. What's interesting is that we're framing this as you see it and I think you identified it correctly that this is trying to go towards the general population who may have some sort of interest. The use of the links and the external links and external, as you said, like if you're more interested in strategies, go to this page. I think that's really where we can leverage it to kind of play to all audiences, and that we will have links to past planning documents people will understand who the players are involved. We can get into the nitty gritty a little bit more if you follow it but it will take someone who is more committed to visit those links and to kind of follow those threads. So if if this group is okay with it being a little harder to access the full full picture like people will have to put a little bit more effort into it, then I think, I think we can continue in the direction of having this more general population but still not losing the information that a policy walk would be more in search of. So yeah what I'm thinking while you're saying that is someone mentioned, like, like the hub page that you start from, if there could be a shortcut straight to the strategies from there and, you know, I'm talking I'm thinking I want to hear the planning Commission's thoughts about this. I can see like like a person who's trying to use it for research. They'll be able to go from the hub page and not have to scroll all the way to the bottom of each of these so I think it's if that's an option for us I think that's how we can kind of make everyone happy maybe. I could see us being accused of trying to hide information, if we didn't have an easy way to get to the strategies. I was going to say I expect the implementation strategy will be its own page it's just going to look very different than the rest of these chapters. It's, it's the part that they're going to be working on with. To kind of come up with some way that we can present all the information in those Excel tables. There's just no easy way to do that and john has, I thought a pretty easy way if we can get some opportunity for everybody to sit down. But I think if we have, as they said, and as you said, you know, a direct way for people to understand that, you know, from that main kickoff page that those strategies whether it's somebody who's putting either an act to 50 application or somebody who's, for whatever reason really wants to know, what is this city going to do about affordable housing that they know that the detailed policy section is over there and that's really where staff. And your as you said the policy wonks and committees, you know, I would, I would expect and hope that over time the housing or the historic preservation commission would be looking at the historic plan that's in in the city plan to go and get ideas for their next set of projects. That's that's how I expected to get laid out but the chapters itself like we're looking at on the screen. Those are expected to be us putting information out us us helping the public understand historic resources and why it's important and what we're doing about it. And economic development, why is it important why do we care. What are our goals and what are we doing about it. I think people can kind of get a general sense that, like you said if their policy wonks and they get to the bottom and they're like, you know, I really want to, you know, understand more than they can click that thing and they end up over in the implementations page, where they can, you know, how that would appear they could get that complete list or they can be able to scroll through or be able to search it, you know, I'm not sure exactly how it all comes together but there'd be all the information that's in our Excel tables would then be accessible to people who want to be able to navigate that. Absolutely and I think the hub site could be a good next deliverable that we can discuss in our, I think we have on the books for the next like mid December planning commission meeting and I think that could be a good good goal for us to come with a, at least a couple examples of other hub sites or the framework of what it might look like for this project. And obviously we we still have to meet with john and we're trying to schedule that so. Right. Another, another piece of feedback that I have, and again, planning commissioners jump in any time with this, this stuff is, I would, I would think that if we're trying to narrow down what what story we're trying to tell that looking at the goals. I think the goals are written to be broad statements of what our, you know, overall high priorities are. I don't know would you agree with that Mike that if you're trying to get be inspired to think of what story we want to tell that. We're trying to bring the story of what what our straight goals are for something like housing we may not even get down to the goals we just may end up because there's so much to have to just end up focusing on mostly on the aspirations. Because we did end up with multiple aspirations for housing so maybe. Yeah. Your, your, your audio is kind of wacky like your, your audio was, was messing up there. So we didn't hear the end part. Oh, sorry. It's not getting better. You sound like a drowning robot. You, okay the robots all winter now can't hear you at all. So, yeah, try to try to get that sorted out but I think I think I got to just what you're saying. Housing seems like the one in which we could probably all agree that the, the story there is. We've fallen very far behind on meeting the demand. Yeah, does anybody else have. And hopefully Mike you can figure out what's going on with that. So, are we, can I just jump in and ask a question here, something that I also have just forgotten that I know that we talked about. Are we putting these pages out to be, I mean, what's our public participation process. I forget what it looked like. It's happening primarily in the spring and there's going to be events there's going to be, there's going to be places where we present it and put it out there. Did you, did you have more questions, like along those lines. Yeah, I just, I couldn't just because it seemed like we were talking about it like it was, you know, when she was when Julie was, or even was talking about the language changing. I was thinking well the language is probably going to change could change anyway, after the public participation process so that was all I just have that question. Yeah, I'm imagining the way that I mean. This is working so far what I'm imagining is sometime in the late spring, as a planning commission we may have to go down. And like when it's starting to get kind of near final form before we send it to city council maybe that's when we sit down and make sure that we still agree with the substance. I'm thinking that we'll probably have to do that. We'll do it informally where like people just do it on their own and when we meet and bring ideas but a sort of the words escaping me but, but yeah meeting where we're making sure that that it's all come together. Anybody else have any more feedback. Anybody. Before they go and then come back and a month or so with the hub, which is I think a good idea. Okay, last call for comments before we move on the agenda. Well, Julian Aiden, I would really like to express appreciation for what you're doing. I can tell that you put a lot of work into making the different parts of it go together. So, we're seeing that. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. We will make sure to send those links along. So they can be included in any wrap up or notes email that goes to the planning commission after this call. We're absolutely open with for feedback at any time, especially when the group has a little bit more time to scroll through and and read. But thank you all for the discussion this evening. And we will be communicating absolutely with Mike and john between the between now the next meeting and with anybody else if they have feedback. So thank you thank you. Thank you. Good evening. All right. So, next on our agenda is follow up to the presentation presentation from last time about the sort of preservation commissions design review guide. That's why Meredith and Eric are here, other than just you know, this is the place to hang out on a Monday. I would just say Kirby, I, you know, it was excellent. I had time to read through it very well done. And if others agree, I would make a motion that we move forward that's to go to the city council next I think. Quick quick. Okay, were you hoping to, before we before we take up the motion to pass it were you hoping to cover anything Meredith or any like loose ends. No, I'm here in case somebody had questions or concerns about any of it. Just in case you wanted to make sure that we were here in case somebody questions about the drafting process or any, you know, particular items. Okay. Thanks, I'm just here for the say answer any questions or an explanation of anybody needs. And the same for me also. Great. Great. Welcome. Before I address Gabe's motion, just want to kind of informally see if there's any informal questions or anything first from Aaron or our own. I'm good. I've been good. It was, it was great work. Great document. You know, I would just say as somebody who's, you know, tries to do work in this area like to walk in there's so much ambiguity, ambiguity sometimes in our regulations to have examples and to be able to drill in and really look at that stuff. You get some ideas even though it's not handcuffing anybody but it just gives you some thoughts right to start looking at really really powerful very helpful. So that's the whole purpose. So I'm glad it's doing what it's supposed to. Thanks we wanted a broader to address a broader audience just so that are in the regulatory process. Yeah, I think you guys knocked out of the park. Yeah, for sure. Okay, well, Gabe has moved that we recommend to City Council that it adopts. Is it an adoption process that what is that what it needs to do. It's sort of a blessing, right. It's a policy document. So it's not an adoption of regulations. You don't have to follow that strict public hearing process, but we really didn't want to put it out as something that would be used by the public or the design review committee or referenced in the regulations, because there's actually there's a place in the design review regulations that references guidance documents. So once everybody has blessed that this can be used will then be able to next time the zoning regulations get changed, put that little reference in there as here's the name of the document. That'll be later. Okay. So, gave you moved to just recommend the city council. I don't want to use the word bless that's policy, instead of adopt his regulations right to adopt his policy maybe. Sure, sure. So we recommend the city council adopt the, this kind of document. That's some good game. Does that, does that capture what you were moving for. Okay. Wait a second. That's second. Hey to a point those of you who showed up to the meeting, hoping to field questions but I accurate great great work great it's a really instructive document really thought it was good work. We had a good presentation last week so I'm not surprised at the lack of questions. Okay, is there any discussion for the motion. We have a first and a second. Okay, so those in favor of gave recommendation recommendation or motion to recommend, say hi. Hi. Hi. Any opposed. Okay, good luck at city council. Thank you. Yeah, well done again. This Eric thanks. Appreciate it. It was a lot of work and it wouldn't have happened without Meredith and a bunch of other people. Brandy sacks and was excellent. One thing I did want to say about the planning commission and you know before act 250 there was something called act 200. It required towns that Mike you probably remember this. Required towns to identify resources so that when developers came in, they would know where the town wanted housing wanted a supermarket. I wonder if anybody is thinking about anything like that. We're kind of starting it for the, with the historic resources but identified wetlands, steep slopes all those kinds of things whatever the town wanted to. I, the thing that made me think about it was that Ernie Pomerol, who was no slouch of a developer said this was the most development friendly piece of legislation. That it had been adopted in Vermont because it does a lot of the work that developers have to do on a on a, you know, piece by piece basis of identify resources. Excuse me, telling the community, telling the developer where the community wants construction. Just the statement. Yeah, I like to think of our zoning as being that that, you know, that's one way in which we're telling where we would like things. The zoning rigs actually have language in there and some of the different neighborhood sections about that exact point. It's probably not maybe as specific as what they did back in the day but it is helpful for people who are looking and trying to identify and then also, you know, just the planning department can be really helpful for developers calling in and trying to get some ideas about where those areas are. Thanks. Yeah, thank you Eric. Okay, so we, we have that. That's on this quick. So, we have mics that don't a lot of work on the utilities and facilities chapter and implementation strategies. Hopefully of your audio. Working okay Mike, and we can go over. Did you want to go over the strategies and then then the chapter or what are you thinking. Yeah, I don't know if my speaker is working any better now. It's working right now. Yeah. Yeah, let's let's go over the strategies and just so everyone knows like as as normal I went over the chapter language today so hopefully everybody got to review that so if we can get to that hopefully we can just pass that out. But go ahead Mike, walk us through the strategies. I can do this here. So, the utilities and facilities chapters really looking at, you know, a handful of things utilities. We're looking at the four public utilities or we have three and we're creating a fourth so the Montpelier utilities or water wastewater, storm water which they're creating right now and district heat so we have four utilities right now. And then there are also private utilities like your electricity communications wireless communications and those those types of things. So that's half the equation and then the other half are your facilities and again facilities are split into the publicly owned facilities like city hall, senior center parking lots rec field cemeteries and then non municipal facilities so under Act 200 that Eric was referring to that's our title, you know chapter 117 rules. We're required to talk about certain non municipal facilities such as schools libraries hospitals and waste management facilities so we're required to talk about those. So what I did, you know, looking at the aspiration is really kind of broken into four big aspirations. There's a lot we've got a, we have to talk about so we're kind of stuck squeezing it into four. I know if john was here he'd be disappointed that we've got so many aspirations but I really couldn't find out any other way of doing it. So, with respect to the four public utilities, what we really talk about I mean it's really kind of common sense, you know we want to provide quality service. We need a steady state plan for maintenance. We need to accomplish everything at an affordable rate for customers. We're keeping enterprise funds healthy so you know there's just some basic pieces, I don't know if everyone had a chance to kind of look through these in detail but most of this is kind of pretty straightforward. You see it in our zoning regulations city public facilities sufficient to meet current and future demands will be maintained and efficient that zero where appropriate. Private utilities we don't do as much with but we're still required to have goals about them so private utilities are universally available and where appropriate meet net zero objectives. And that's mostly ties into the electricity for net zero. And a lot of these for Montpelier are pretty straightforward it's not a big deal. You know we talk about electricity communications and telecommunications Montpelier. We've got universal everything you live in Montpelier you've got multiple broadband opportunities you've got multiple cell tower opportunities. This same exact goal in you know I live in hardwick in hardwick is you know, you know, part of town has broadband part of town has wireless telecommunications. You know I can get a cell call at my house, but I walk 50 feet to my barn and I can't get a cell call. So, you know that's that's hard work that doesn't happen here in Montpelier so it's our goal but it's a pretty hard one because we pretty much meet everything already. And then the non municipal facilities usually the biggest one that comes up is the capacity of schools to accommodate additional growth which isn't an issue. But again, under chapter 117 we have to talk about these things so that's why we do. So that's the four aspirations and if people are good with that I'll make a quick jump to goals. And this is where we jump to goals. I will summon the spirit of john Adams, our john Adams not the president and say, we might be able to make it. I mean, we could possibly do one one that's one that's utilities and one that's facilities like, like, I don't want to waste a bunch of time on it. It's not a huge battle for me but like a and D seem like they could possibly be combined I understand that there's a huge difference on what we're going to do about a D, because once inside the city cities control and the others not, but I don't know, I would just say, if we wanted to step back with it. Yeah we could combine a and B I was just trying to keep things from getting too long and clunky between the two. That's really the only reason for for splitting those out. So anyway, that's, I just, I just thought I'd mentioned that if, if, if there was interest in it. But we can keep it a four for now as well. Yeah I think there's possibly room for combining C and D a and B I think would be tough. No no I was thinking a and D, a and D, because they're both, they both cover. And D does go more to facilities so maybe D and B. It's just bringing utilities things together and bringing facilities together as an as as aspirations, and then have the goals separate them back out. That's all. Yeah, yeah we can see how the goals and strategies play out and sometimes if if all the same strategies to implement be as the same strategies as implementing D. It might make sense to pull them together. If they use different strategies then it might make sense to keep the aspirations separate but we'll see as we get down there where where it all ended up. Yeah, just trying that out there to think about. I haven't been a huge advocate of having like one or two aspirations but I know some folks are. Go ahead Mike sorry about that. Nope, that's fine. Some of these again we might be able to do some combining of goals this ended up with a lot of goals primarily because of of the nature of everything we're talking about. But for simplicity of my thinking through it, I, I kept them separate so you know we talked about each one of those factors, so we ended up with three factors. The facilities, the plant distribution lines, and then the financial piece, you know maintaining it and so we've got the then we've got the four so we've got three of these times for you end up with, not surprisingly, you know, 10 or 12 of these goals associated with the with our for utility so maintaining quantity and quality of water, water supply treatment storage system. And so they want to maintain that because we have good quality we have good quantity of water we just need to maintain it member maintain evolve transform. We need to improve the quality of our distribution lines in the city, especially water that's why we have all the water breaks. And we need to maintain the responsible administration of the water fund and increase funding to the water fund to achieve steady state maintenance so at this point, we do have good water funds they are solvent. The issue we have right now is increasing the amount of water funds available so we can go through and meet our steady state requirements for number two basically. And then the same thing we have the same discussion for wastewater maintain the quantity of quality of wastewater we have a very good wastewater plant we have a lot of capacity. We need to improve the collection lines we've got a lot of old lines out there we've got a lot of infiltration. And then we need to maintain responsible funds because we are doing a good job maintaining our funds we just might need some additional funds to achieve steady state. So those are pretty consistent so we might be able to, you know you can see how these all ended up the same we might be able to combine 123 with 456. And I didn't just for discussion sake. When it comes to storm water, that's the one we are creating a storm water utility we don't have it yet. In this case we do need to improve the quality and quantity of our storm water treatment we don't do. We need to meet the level that we would want to for our storm water treatment we have our CSOs are combined sewers that pollutes the river we've got a lot of storm water that is untreated that goes straight into the river. So we do have improvements there we need we need to also improve the collection lines separate CSOs. And we need to improve the administration of it because we don't actually have the utility we're still creating it so storm water will probably need to stay as its own thing because because it has its own unique goals and levels. And then the heat heat system because our district heat system is it is utility. It's also brand new. So everything is maintained maintained maintained because everything is in great shape we just have to. Other than the district heat fund, which it needs more money. Other than the funding. In good shape. Facilities, the goals for be you can see there are only two ensure facilities are sufficient to meet current and future demands and maintain and where necessary improve the condition of all facilities. So one is about the capacity and one is about the condition. And we separated those just because our goals for for maintaining that are going to be different than the goals for the facilities. We're over here to private utilities where we've got green mountain power. And then down to D where we were talking about those schools and libraries and stuff we've got goals to balance residential development with our schools so we basically have one goal for schools one goal for libraries one goal for medical center and other health related and one goal for the solid waste management district. So so we're required to talk about these four. So we have again, could we compress these into one we probably could because I was just wrote walking through that's what I did I put in that way game. In the narrative there's there's some language that talks about the excess capacity we have for sewer and water. I didn't see anything about schools but I've heard you talk about it before could we add something in the narrative component to that. Yes, I don't I'll have to go and see we've got the chapter written so we'll just have to see if we we have that conversation in there but we should I hope we would because that's a lot of what. I think the story to tell when we come to writing the utilities chapter is. We have. We have the ability to grow. I think that's that's the take home message from utilities people people can disagree with it from philosophical reasons or for whatever reasons that they want but it's not because we can't handle additional growth Montpelier has enough water to double its population of sewer to double its population we have water we've got facilities that can meet our needs. So we are we are in great shape to grow. Yeah, and if there's another chapter maybe it's just a quick blurb and then in the, you know when se groups writing and it's a link to that chapter but it was really apparent that you know the utilities are there. That's the thing that people are always going to say and it's well no we have capacity in schools. Yeah, yeah. And what they're talking about is, yeah what se group just did was the chapter part that's and that should have our story is, we can grow we've got our utilities we've got our facilities we can grow so. Then the strategies. So this one ended up with, we ended up with more goals than we had strategies. So there are 14 of them. I'm not going to read through all of these you're more than welcome to take the time to but the one set of strategies looking at continuing our utility planning, and this applies to all four. And it talks about a list of all the things that they are doing currently for utility planning. A second strategy is our CIP our capital improvement program this is how we buy things and fix things. So it's talking about continuing it and making notes of the things that we need to, you know, of note upgrades to water lines to accommodate new fire hydrant codes, and those types of things so utility and infrastructure incentive and this goes to some of the economic development ties. So we have, for example, we did this with caledonia spirits, who would not have been able to develop without improvements to the water line which we made. And we used economic development funds the city paid for the improvements to the water line not at not caledonia spirits we made those investments in order to facilitate that happening. The reason we did that was because they were going to buy so much water that we were going to be able to pay ourselves back on additional water revenues to pay back the money we use to fix the water line for them. So there was, you know, we had, you just need to have the money upfront to be able to loan to yourself basically, and then pay yourself back into that loan program so we have an RLF we loaned ourselves money, and we're paying ourselves back for that loan. So that way that money will be available to the next time we need to do an infrastructure improvement so we do have this program in place and it has been done before. Unified development regulations. So this is our zoning rules utilities and facilities come up a lot when you talk about conditional uses. That's one of the types of projects and that always has one three requirements. So we have the area, the traffic and the ability of this of the communities utilities and facilities to accommodate that growth. So, if something's a conditional use it ties directly into this chapter. And usually what you want to have in this chapter is that we don't have any barriers and therefore everybody automatically probably meets that unless it's a really really big project. This is some of these other projects the roof drain separation. These are very small specific issues of stormwater design flow policy stormwater system maintenance programs. I'm just creating the stormwater utility that I mentioned capital needs assessments CNAs as they're called they they're part of facility management. So if you were a property manager and you owned a number of buildings you would have CNAs capital needs assessments and that would go through and say oh I'm going to need to replace this roof every 20 years I'm going to need to replace the furnace every 30 years I'm going to need to replace. I'm going to buy out all of your capital needs, and then you start budgeting for them so that way you don't end up with a really big bill come do the 203 country club lane master plan that's what we're doing right now that's the elks club. So the project is ongoing Berry Street recreation facility plan so the Berry Street facility, a recreation facility is kind of doesn't meet any these $6 million of improvements just to meet ADA requirements and other things so we need to figure out what we're doing with it. So implementing on certificates of public good we have the right to do that and mostly that ties into the electricity so the me act is very interested in making sure our energy committee is very interested in making sure that we are net zero with respect to electricity. So that has already agreed to go to net zero by 2030, which is good. And so that means we just need to monitor to make sure they don't change their mind. And then we've got commenting on section 248 filings which is basically if somebody wants to put in a solar project. You don't get a zoning permit to put in a solar panel. You're getting a section 248 permit, because it's exempt from zoning and communication program with regional partners so that's really a program that's really about making sure we keep open communication lines between us in the schools the central medical center the solid waste management district so right now, as far as we know we don't have any capacity issues at any of these facilities so our goal at this point is just to maintain our communications with them. So that way if problems come up we know we can help address them. And that was it so as I said these were some of these may get shortened or abbreviated but I thought the, I thought the strategies when I was done or in pretty good shape, but I thought we could probably combine a few goals. You know there may be a few aspirations that we might be able to do a little bit of working on. Yeah, I'd be in favor of combining some aspirations and goals I think, I think that the strategies are great. Does anyone have any feedback or questions. So we have 20 goals. How many strategies that we have. They're only 14. It seems like, you know, yeah like I said it was mostly to tie in to make sure we have that individual look at each one of the pieces like maintaining this improving this maintaining this. If we don't break it into the pieces to first go through and say alright how does water look it's this this and this how does wastewater look is this this this. And so you kind of walk all the pieces out and then when you're done if there are so many of them that are similar, we can start combining them. But if we combine them too early then we haven't really taken the time to think about them separately so that was why I did it the way I did. Would it be okay that like it's obviously you know we want to think about it separately but would it be okay just for purposes of listing listing them to put them back together. Um, I mean it's it's up to you guys my sense is unfortunately like as I said that the tricky part about utilities and facilities and this is going to come up with community services as well is you just have so many of them that you know, you have so many services you're going to end up with you know parks and recreation and senior center and cemeteries and so we're going to have a number of these things that are just going to buy their nature end up with a lot of goals because we're going to have separate goals for each one of them. Utilities just the same way there's just going to be a certain amount of tendency to end up with a lot of goals just because we've got to talk about a lot of small things we've got four utilities in the city. And each one's in a different condition but like I said I do think we could probably combine 123 and 456 because they do follow the same pattern. Maintain improve maintain. I would think I mean we might be able to look through. You know, seven eight nine but I think again we're kind of in a similar those are all looking at improving. So, I don't know. If you're welcome to take it back and if you guys want to just go and look at it between now and the next meeting we can do that too. And kind of think about it and come up with. Yeah, I'm thinking a couple of ways we could just, we could give you some general feedback and vote it out. You know, you can say, you know, do your best to combine some things and then voted out should be fine with me. All right, I'll let you guys talk just for a quick second. Okay. I mean I just like all the maintain things, you know, cannot work we're going to maintain all of these things. And then you got some that are looking forward to things that we need to improve. I'm just, I'm seeing a lot of like, we can just use an ox for comma. For if we're going to try to make like, you know, if we have three things to say the same thing why not just put the lump all the utilities together in the same goal if it's saying the same thing. I mean, this seems pretty reminiscent of how it was at the outset from the earlier chapters where we would have a pretty robust list of goals and strategies and Mike would then we just give it to Mike and he would kind of collapse it down into some more, I guess, pithy approaches to the language. I mean, it seems like that can happen here. So, I mean, either we can kind of collapse these things down or we can let Mike do it. I mean, I remember in the past, we would sort of let Mike do it. I mean, that's the reason why the only reason I'm even hung up on this really is that in the past we did that so let's, you know, make it consistent. I'm also just seeing the se group stuff in the way that they're laying it out there. I'd hate to see them list 20 goals and the way that they've been doing it that are all very similar. I think seeing it on the website is what actually scared me at this point, like, okay, now I can see why it's not great to have too much. Arion, did you have any ideas? No, I think, yeah, that's a good point about collapsing to make it the website more usable and interesting. Okay. I'm thinking of, yeah, just like leaving it to you to try to combine some of it. It seems like everyone's in favor of like combining possible. And Aaron was pointing out how, you know, you've done that for you done that for others goals and strategies in the past so I think we're all comfortable with that. I think the list is good right now. I mean, I think Mike's right. There's a lot of, we just have to make sure that we're thinking through all the nuances between the different utilities and different types of facilities and I think this list does that. We can either, we can do it or Mike can do it but I think there's ways to whittle this down, you know, to make it more seamless but I mean, I think for now the list is good. We can, we can work out the language later. Okay. So, sounds like can we get a motion to approve the aspirations goals and strategies for the utilities and facilities chapter with the direction to Mike to try to combine some of them to to reduce the overall number, the overall number, but that's a long motion. There it is. Well, do we want to have Mike or someone else take a stab at sort of whittling it down before we voted out, or do you just want to do it now. Thank you guys. Whether you. How much do you mean if we if we don't vote now then we definitely will have to put this on the agenda again and go through it again. I can just, I'm trying to think of this in terms of how this folds into SDs work. What's the, what is the timeframe we're working with to get this stuff to them. So I'm trying to get as many chapters done as I can before. Basically the end of December. So, we've gotten all of them done where we're the only one I won't we won't have done by that time is land use. So I'm getting down to the final things want to say community services and public safety are the two that we're working on and I have I have pieces of each, but that's that my goal is between now and December 31 to kind of get done with those. And then we'll have fully approved them but in the back of my mind I want to know that I've gotten them all drafted up and ready to go. Because I really want to be shifting gears to be working as much with them directly as I can to be reviewing their drafts to kind of, because once we have the template, you know you you guys have seen the template. You can read it this is what we want each storyboard to look like then I can work with them directly and you know take a little bit of creative liberty, as they were doing to kind of go through and say well let's let's focus on this being our story. And let's see how much we can pull this together and let's see what pictures we can get and let's see what graphics we need to kind of build it out so we can put it, let you guys review the review it a little bit more refined. And for the chapters part. So that's along when winded way of saying I want to have all the pieces ready except for land use by the end of December and I mean if it's all right with the group I'd be happy to, if you, if it's worth it. I think there's value and I can take a stab is sort of wordsmithing these the aspirations and start the goals and strategies. Just sort of see if we can whittle down a little bit well, sort of keeping the key points that like this lead on the list and just we can put on it next next meeting. It'll be a simple exercise I think I just say this is my draft this is Mike's, which you know we can just work through it pretty quickly. I do, I do think that there is some value in sort of narrowing this down a little bit. We can. That's fabulous Aaron thank you for offering. I'm totally fine with that so everybody else find that. Yeah, okay so we can we put on the agenda next time and talk about it. Mike give us his reaction as well. I'll try to get something in this group sometime next week, hopefully before Thanksgiving and so while you guys are digesting and checking you can look at my hand. Okay. Yes, I might go and make a second copy of this. So that way, because once we start messing with this it doesn't exist anymore so I might just make a second copy in the utilities and facilities folder on the drive. I'll make a I'll make a working copy. Okay. Okay, that sounds good. That sounds good so we'll wait to vote then sounds sounds like a plan thank you so much Aaron for that. How do we go on. And so you want to take a look at the chapter, Mike did. Everyone get a chance I know that. I tend to send these things kind of late signed up setting aside on time on Mondays for still like this a lot. But did folks get a chance to look at the new version of the chapter. I just had a I just was able to take a quick scan of it before the meeting so I really looked at it. Well that could be another thing where people can. If you if we want to if we're going to take up the other thing later we can we can also just wait to vote on this as well. What are people's thoughts about, you know that. Yes, so this kind of gets to what the changes that Kirby made. I haven't taken a look to see what your changes are usually you do a better job word smithing I throw down the ideas and you can kind of go through and we'll eventually get shifted again so when we get to saying what's the story we want to tell then we'll pick pieces out of this to kind of make the story. And I think this gets a little bit to what Gabe was talking about, you know we're talking about the capacity of the plants and what are the issues water wastewater stormwater district heat. And I think maybe what gave was referring to is we needed to have something more. I think it's that actually yeah if you go down down a little bit operated by them. Yeah we don't have something in here that as explicit about saying hey we've got plenty of school capacity. So so it's that it's that little paragraph the top page right there scroll up a little bit by that's where it goes into the capacity we have for utility some facilities but it does not call out schools. And so when Gabe said that I was that was the spot I was thinking that we could add a sentence there. What do you think. Yeah, that's that's great. I think most of these kind of make sense through here I didn't fill this out but I don't think we necessarily need to at this point knowing how things have, how our format has changed for our storyboards I might not spend the time building these out. Because yes, but we haven't been doing implementation approaches so there's no sense building that one out. Okay, well we can everybody just, you know, take, take time before next meeting to give it a look over we'll say, and we'll just a plan to pass both the things out next time. We got we got to make sure we have a quorum, but we might have new blood by then too, which will help. And so that is Thanksgiving week or is it no the week after Thanksgiving so the Monday after Thanksgiving break. And does anyone anticipate not making that meeting. Since we're talking about it. Okay, so so we should be able to to vote out utilities then. Sounds good. The. Did we have arts we did have arts and culture so I took another look at the arts and culture chapter today. It's, it's pretty short as is, but you know we could, we could pull more info from the arts and culture matter the public art master plan. If we want to. I just didn't feel a need to until SC. I'm not going to back at it actually personally I think that there's enough stuff for them to pull it out. I just we don't I just don't feel like we don't need long chapters. So we have the intro which is something they're using right we have the how does this relate to others this would be what they're calling this energies. We have a summary of past. Those big section headers that's missing. No, I mean, no, they'll be, we'll have some getting into the goals and strategies and referring back. I think what we'd have to just figure out, like I said with arts and culture is, you know, what's the story we want to tell and then kind of pulling this together to just to tell that story. You know what do we want to tell the public about arts and culture. That'll help us to finish filling this out could we just wrote the chapters not having any idea how this was going to be used. And now we're starting to get an idea of how it's being used so you know we might just partially skip the step of writing all this stuff out. You know, I think how arts and culture relate to other chapters we still should do because synergies is pretty much grabbing the stuff. But the introduction we might need to fill out a little bit more there might need to be more information. What what's the story we want to tell. You know, and maybe it's, you know, off the top of my head. You know, we're both, you know, my failure is both a community that has a lot of arts and culture and at the same time it's also a community that is lacking in arts and culture and it's kind of this. dichotomy of things and that's what the public art master plan is trying to bridge that gap that we have that we don't have very much public art although we have so much other art, whether it's galleries, or Los Nation Theater, you know the Savoy, you know, you could just tick off all of these things but they're not, you know, very few of them or none of them are really public art in the classic sense. And so what the public art master plan is trying to do is to kind of balance, you know, and I think the story we're trying to tell us, there's a lot of great and there's a lot of room to grow. And I think that might be the story of art, art and culture is that that dichotomy of, you know, kind of showing off how great things are and at the same time showing off how much better things could be. And maybe that's the story for arts and culture, but that's kind of up to you guys what what do you guys see as the story for arts and culture that we want to tell about Montpelier. I agree with that. I agree with what you said. So, so does it sound okay to folks to the kind of we kind of have this stuff that I see group can use. Yeah, that's another more aware of what they're after and what they're doing I realize that we don't need to write a ton, as long as they have things to pull from. So this chapter they can also pull from the public art master plan. We should probably make sure that they're aware of that master plan for if they're looking for more places to steal photos. That's a 40 plus page plan that's as loads of photos. And the other part, just so I can go and check in with you guys on this, your, your comment reminds me of, of another item that was one thing we added in to the to the new historic was about the players and what's going on. One of the reasons I wanted to do that was because on our city's website, we have chapters for each one of the committees, and it also includes all of those historic documents, and all of those other things so rather than trying to find out how to list all of those old, you know, things we've already done, you know the housing report from 2011 and the housing report from 2003 and all those those things. The sense was, if it's not really part of the story. We can talk about the housing committee. And then if somebody goes to the housing committee page, it has all of the, you know what's the housing committee and all of the past projects at the housing committee has been involved with and worked on. And that might be, you know, especially if we call it out to go through and say additional information on housing and the housing committee, including historical reports can be found here at this link. And I think that would clean up our presentation a little bit by not having to worry about those past projects. I think that's a good idea. Then that would go here with the arts and culture as well. Focus on our story we can refer people to the arts and culture. Public arts commission and at the public arts commission would have that, you know, in this case the public art master plan may be a key enough piece that we actually put a link directly in it. But many of the other smaller reports would probably just fall into what the public art commission is doing. Sharing here. All right, everybody, everybody like that plan. All right. I'm going to say we'll have to, I was going to grab Aaron's vote before he goes to to adjourn, but he's already left. Okay, well, just have to adjourn and more of a. Yeah, we don't have minutes so that's why we can't vote on the minute so as soon as we're wrapped up here we're adjourning. Yeah, no minutes. Let's adjourn. Just lost Aaron. That was his. Can I just ask one, one question here. I don't want to hang out and that's fine. You know, the, like the larger I know we need to get this planned on but the larger conversations like we had that. The pushback on changing the density, you know requirements. It's just a process of having broader conversations about our zoning and how we can remove some of the barriers that could exist, you know, to create more housing like how does that. How does that happen like you just say, because it seems like okay we're getting people to come in and say we want changes and therefore you consider it if it makes sense then you're proposing these zoning changes but how do we have a more holistic conversation about why are we doing any of these things let's just tear this stuff down and allow people particularly we just you know the policy we've got some great policy that exists in terms of, you know what design might look like I mean when do we have those conversations. I mean we can have them when whenever. We can move it, you know, as I said, my goal is to kind of get that the city plan, pushing forward and as it moves out of your play you guys then have the, you know, the world is your oyster because you'll have, you know, zoning is finally updated and your city plan would finally be often getting updated and so then you can tackle these individual projects, but wanting to address this, you know at the same time we can certainly do it. We can talk to you guys to go through and say hey we want to hold a public hearing, and get public input, and we start to work with our communications folks to get stuff out and, you know, you know, in the same way that the elks club, the country club road project is, you know, having a concerted effort of doing public outreach. And so if the planning commission was like you know what we really want to have this conversation, and it's important. Then we kind of push that we push out a series of, you know, public outreach and public comment sessions to start to have that conversation. I think that's how you just make a note I mean I'm sure it was on your list of things to do after we get through the plan that we have to get updated right but you know what we what we saw in the last one I know you're already like it's like how do we communicate some of this stuff. But basically we had all the like, this is going to ruin the world, people that showed up and we didn't have any housing advocates show up. And so how you know like just thinking through okay what is it that we want to do. What are the arguments I mean is I've just been here, you know maybe a year or something but the more that I read the more that I studied. I mean it's very clear it's like it's discriminatory the kind you know zoning and the rules that we have keep people up right that's what we're doing. When we don't and we're not having people showing up to hearings talking about that. So there needs to be some communication right we need to do a better job communicating. We need to get some advocates there but just just you know curvy that's one of the things I'd like whenever we have time to talk about it rather than just hey somebody wants to do something over here so let's talk about amending this I think we should have that more holistic discussion. So let me tell you the plan that's in my mind. The city plan is come first because it's a you know statutory requirements and it's honestly the way I think of it in my mind is like the city plan is we're eating our vegetables before we get to dessert which dessert is like working on changing some things now that need, you know, action now. The plan has been in my mind that we're we're going to address a lot of the questions that not all of the questions are so much really. But but a lot of the questions that need to be addressed or some of the conversations I feel like and I think that a lot of people in planning commission feel like needs to be had. We're going to address those things when we take up the Congress for new urbanism report and we're going to take that up and we're going to address it and we're going to address all of the things that the CNU pointed out. For us, we do have we have some recent history with a couple of the things that they brought up but there's more ideas that they brought up to for making big changes to allow housing. And so we're going to have to there shouldn't be a policy discussion about how we want to respond to it and what we think the best way to respond to it is, you know, whether we take their recommendations or not whether they think it's whether we think it's the right fit from up here. And then that's going to have a public information gathering aspect to it and we are going to bring that to City Council with recommendations and we did lay the foundation with City Council for them to expect us to do that. It's been a long time we'll have to remind them but but I mean technically we I mean I more or less told them, you know, we're going to be back with with this, you know, so so that that is what we're going to do. And in my mind that's not the only time we're going to revisit zoning. And as you've seen so far, a few times a year, Mike and staff collect things that happen in real time and then we respond to zoning. We think or was zoning for responding to those things and sometimes that's an opportunity when we're opening that up to also have these conversations. That stuff, that stuff sounds like a great plan Kirby I just, I just, you know, just wanted to say hey it'd be good to get back to that when we can after we get the stuff done that we need to do for Mike. I was also thinking of since, since, since the CNU issues that you know the recommendations from them they didn't touch on the solar shading. I was thinking we might tackle that first because it's a smaller bite, but that's flexible you know it's our decision whether we want to go go back to city council on solar shading first or if we want to handle the CNU stuff, which, which has to do with density and other things. We're going to, we're going to revisit that when we, as Mike was saying, we have the land use plan, or the land use chapter, which is going to be a work for us. The rest of these chapters we have to work on are not there. It's, it's stuff like we saw tonight, which is utilities and facilities and that's just pretty straightforward and non controversial stuff. So, but the land use plan is going to take work from us so that that's going to probably take some precedence over jumping fully into the CNU stuff. That's not going to be that that'll be a good opportunity to talk about these items as well not as in depth as you're going to want to get into. But I think that's a good place for us to be introducing and reminding the public again and taking the public input on the ideas of removing density. I know John will bring up the parking standards there's a lot of stuff that gets caught up in that the land use is kind of where everything that we've talked about the other 12 chapters have all come together. We're going to have to look at the land and, and start to develop how are we doing on our land use plan. And, you know, what are we trying to maintain what are we trying to evolve what are we trying to transform, you know, on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis is kind of how I've been, you know, my mind goes to, we're really going to have to look at it at a neighborhood level. And that's going to help us make a decision on, you know, on density, you know, we want to maintain the character of the neighborhood but it doesn't contain the number of dwelling units. You know, really that those are shouldn't be related at all. The only thing that really matters is is the design piece. And if we can kind of introduce that in our land use. Because periodically what happens is we'll get to city council, and the attorney start to show up, and they start to go through and say yeah but this isn't in your city plan. You really need to go and implement you got really need to update your city plan first before you should be updating the zoning regulations to do the things that you want to do. And they're not wrong. So, because we're so close we might as well hit the land use chapter hard and hit it right, and talk about all the things we want to do so that way the next time we make a proposal that they don't have that card to play anymore. You know, we can talk about this with our land use plan. Sounds like a good plan and Brian with your communications background we certainly hope you get to join in here because there'll be a lot of communication that needs to get done. So, anyway, thanks. Sorry for slowing everything down. I see people are dropping off. I didn't want to hog up some time but I just I want to get back to that when we can. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we don't have we don't have a quorum to adjourn but we're going to adjourn. Have a great night everyone. Yeah.