 Welcome. I'm Dr. Desmar Walks, Medical Director and Health Authority for the City of Austin and Travis County. I'm honored to join you in this evening's program, a conversation with Dr. Anthony Fauci. Dr. Fauci serves as one of the key advisors to the White House and the Department of Health and Human Services and has advised seven presidents on domestic and global health issues, including HIV, AIDS, influenza, and most recently the COVID-19 pandemic. You may know him after he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom or from reading a pandemic-related headline. But I came to appreciate his efforts in the 90s. I was working for Health Care for the Homeless in D.C., early in the AIDS HIV treatment era, and attended a seminar where he provided information on medical advances made at the time which inspired me and the community to see a future without fear. Fast forward to this current pandemic. I'm in a city where he collaborated with the McClellan Labs at the University of Texas and the information about the spike protein was shared worldwide and eventually led to a vaccine. As misinformation spreads faster than any disease in our lifetime, I am among many local health authorities who appreciates Dr. Fauci's dedication to staying the course and following the data and the science. This evening's conversation is moderated by LBJ Foundation President and CEO Mark Uptegrove. And now please join me in welcoming Dr. Anthony Fauci and Mark Uptegrove. Dr. Fauci, welcome. It is truly an honor to have you with us tonight. Thank you very much. It's really my pleasure to be here. Happy to participate in something that has to do with LBJ. Well, we're grateful for that. And someday we'd love to actually have you to the LBJ Library, Dr. Fauci. But since the beginning of the pandemic, you've become a household name. We are used to seeing you on news coverage and at the White House. You're one of the most trusted people in America. Brad Pitt even played you on Saturday Night Live. That's big stuff. But we, many of us don't know a lot about you. So I wonder if you could talk about your background and what led you to lead the National Institute for Allergies and Affectious Diseases almost 40 years ago. Well, I was born and raised in New York City. Actually, I was born in Brooklyn, New York. And in very much of a Italian-American ethnic neighborhood. Back then when I was born a long time ago, I'm 80 years old now, as strange as it seems to say that, was at a time when most of the neighborhoods in New York, in somewhat of a good way, because it was a lot of immigrants that came to New York, that I happened to be born and raised in an Italian-American neighborhood, which was a very close-knit, family-related environment in which I grew up, where people depended on each other and helped each other. So the idea of public service and doing something for community, I was kind of almost intuitively instilled in me, not only for my parents, but in the environment in which I grew up. I got interested in very interested in people, but at the same time found out as I went into school that I had an aptitude and a like and then ultimately a passion for science. So I was trying to figure out what the best way to combine science and a need to be able to contribute to society, to people aspect of society. I was fortunate enough to have multiple years of Jesuit training, both in an elite Jesuit high school in New York City, Regis High School, as well as the College of Holy Cross in Worcester, Massachusetts. And the Jesuit mantra has always been service for others, but also at a highly intellectual level, as the Jesuits are known for. So during that, I studied the humanities and something that people don't very know very much about me, that my major in college, believe it or not, were the classics philosophy and just enough science to get me into medical school. So I took the Greek classics, Latin, a romance language, multiple credits of philosophy and enough biology, physics and chemistry to get me into medical school. And I went to medical school to Cornell University Medical College in New York City. I did a full internship multiple years of residency, a chief residency in medicine. Then I came to the NIH as a fellow to learn the subspecialty of infectious diseases and immunology. That got me involved in an interest in infectious diseases, and their impact not only on the individual but on society. And then along came something that completely transformed my life, something unexpected, something I didn't plan for. And that was the HIV pandemic. And I was involved very, very intensively from the very literally first days of the HIV pandemic in the summer and fall of 1981. I made that the subject of my own personal research as a clinical and basic researcher that I have been and still am. And then in 1984, at a very young age, I became the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and led the research effort and endeavor on HIV AIDS and other infectious diseases, which got me very, very much interested and involved in global health in general, particularly global health associated with infectious diseases. So I have been for better or worse, really at the eye of the hurricane of everything from HIV to pandemic flu to Ebola to Zika to chicken Gunja to and now the mother of all outbreaks is COVID-19. So that's a quick thumbnail of where I came from and where I'm now. Well, and I want to talk about your work on infectious diseases, Dr. Fauci, but there was a marvelous story that I read in a New Yorker profile about you working construction on New York's Upper East Side at the Cornell Medical College. And you happened, I guess, fortuitously to stroll into the auditorium. Can you talk about that incident in your life? Yeah, it was a really interesting day that day. I had applied. I was planning to apply. This was between my junior and my senior year at Holy Cross. And I had worked throughout my entire summers in college as a common labor and a construction gang. It was called hard carrier. And I belong to the common labor and hard carrier Union of America. I got a job and I worked in summer, which was essentially to push the wheel barrel and clean up and do the concrete and all that kind of thing. And one of the jobs I had during that summer was to demolish a building at Cornell University Medical College on York Avenue and 68th and 69th Street in preparation for building the Samuel J. Wood Memorial Library. And I knew I was going to apply to Cornell because it's one of the best medical schools in the world. And it was in New York City and I wanted to get back to New York City. And on one lunch hour when all the construction workers be sitting on the curb eating their sandwich, whistling at all the nurses going by, I decided with my, you know, fatigues and my boots and my t-shirt and all kinds of dust all over me, I decided to walk up the steps into the lobby and I looked at the URVS auditorium, which is where all the students get their lectures. And as I was looking in, a security guy came over to me and he said, Hey, Sonny, what are you doing here? And I said, Listen, I'm just looking around. He says, Well, you got all of that dust all over you. You're dirtying the place. Please get out of here. He says, No, I said, I'm going to leave. But I got to tell you, one of these days, I'm going to be a student at this medical school. And he looked at me with this totally skeptical look and said, Yeah, and one of these days, I'm going to be commissioned of a police in New York City. And I'll never forget that. Of course, I was looking for the guy when I came a year and a half later, but he didn't work there anymore. I was going to say, Hey, remember me? Well, maybe he became the commissioner of police. You never know. He became a student. Well, I want to talk about the the remarkable work event. You talked earlier about your work on on AIDS. That seemed to be a very, very formative chapter in your career. Talk about what led you to AIDS, to work on AIDS research and what you learned from it, Dr. Fauci. Well, it was really one of the most transformative decisions I ever made. Because when I saw the first five cases in a publication from the CDC called morbidity and mortality weekly report, which is a weekly report by the CDC on all the interesting diseases that arise. Usually nothing that ever gets on anybody's radar screen, but it's important from a public hand standpoint, like a outbreak of food poisoning in Minnesota or or some other thing that goes on. So I read it and I remember it was June 1981. And I was sitting in my office. And this thing came across my desk about five men curiously all gay men. Wow, what's that all about? Who came down with the strange disease of an unusual pneumonia. That's only seen in people who have compromised immune system. I thought it was a fluke. I thought they maybe had taken some poppers and medication to enhance sexual responsiveness or what have you. I didn't pay much attention. And then one month later in July of 1981, another publication from the CDC came across my desk. This time reporting 23. Amen. Unbelievable. Only gay men, not only from Los Angeles, which was the first report, but also from San Francisco and New York. And these men who are normally perfectly normal before came down with these horrible infections called opportunistic infections that you only see in someone whose immune system was compromised and a cancer called Kaposi sarcoma. I remember literally the blood drained from my skin when I read that I said, Oh, my God, we're dealing with a brand new disease. And you didn't learn that in medical school. There was no such a thing as a brand new disease. You learned all diseases you were supposed to learn in medical school. And I said, This must be a brand new infection. And I decided at that point, a totally, and I use the word transforming it was decision that I was going to stop what I was doing because I trained an immunology and infectious disease. And I said, I don't know what this is. But I'm positive it's an infectious disease. And it's attacking the immune system of these young gay men. So immunology and infectious diseases, I was board certified in both of those specialties. And I said, What better disease for me to study? My mentors thought I was really being reckless saying, you're on a career trajectory that you're going to be a star one day. Why are you leaving that to study this bizarre new disease? And I said, I love you, my mentors. But there's something about this that's telling me this is going to get big. It's not going to be confined to just a handful of gay men. At the time, there were less than 50 cases that were reported. Today, there have been over 78 million cases. But back then, people were telling me that I was throwing away a good career opportunity by changing the direction of my career. So what I did for the next several years was admit these terribly ill, almost all young gay men with a strange disease, which at first didn't even have a name. We didn't know what it was. So it was called gay related immunodeficiency, or the gay cancer. Then it became clear. I remember writing an article in 1981 that was published in 1982, warning the world and the medical community, at least not the world, because not everybody reads medical literature, saying that anybody thinks that this is going to stay confined to a restricted group of people have no idea what infections do. And that paper was first rejected by a journal because they thought it was too alarmist. And it wasn't because more than I ever imagined happened. So for the next few years, I admitted hundreds of these people to the NIH hospital with my colleagues. And it was the darkest years of my life in my medical career because virtually all of my patients died, which really stimulated me to not only do research to find drugs, but to take over the directorship of the Institute so that I can get more resources on this new disease that I was convinced, despite the fact that so many people were telling me I was wrong. I was convinced this was going to be a massive assault on humanity. And it turned out unfortunately, quite unfortunately, I was pressured. But there were good news behind that because we put billions of dollars of research into it. And now we have highly, highly effective drugs that are now allowing a person who living with HIV to live almost a normal life, which was an extraordinary arc of my experience where for the first three or four years, everybody I took care of essentially with few exceptions died. And now 2021, everybody I see with the disease, I can give them one pill and they could live a essentially a normal life. So that's been quite an experience. You have been widely praised for your efforts through the years. George H. W. Bush cited your work on AIDS research. He called you a hero for all the work you had done on AIDS. And George W. Bush, his son, the 43rd president, gave you the Medal of Freedom for your work for the on the president's emergency plan for AIDS relief, PEPFAR, which literally saved hundreds of thousands of Africans from dying from the AIDS virus. But you've also faced withering criticism through the years. During the AIDS epidemic, activist Larry Kramer said you were the central focus of evil in the world. And last year, when you were working on COVID-19, Donald Trump called you a disaster. So how do you deal with criticism like that? Well, I'm smiling because I often give the answer. First of all, you have to focus like a laser beam on what you're trying to do. And as I've said, almost tongue in cheek from one of my famous movies on the Great Philosophy of Life, The Godfather, it's nothing personal. It's strictly business. Because if you take that personally, you'll get, you know, very shickened up by the fact that people are criticizing you. But if you go back and see what happened, the AIDS activist had a very valid point. I was perceived as the face of the federal government. And quite frankly, it is true that the antiquated approach towards science and disease at the time excluded input from the afflicted population and felt science knows better, the government knows better, the regulatory agencies know better. And what the young, brilliant, passionate suffering, AIDS activists, we're trying to say is we need you to pay attention to us because we have something to offer. Most of the scientists pulled back and said, whoa, we're not going to get involved with that. By their, you know, withering criticism as you accurately describe your withering criticism of them by them of me, got me to do something that I think was the most important, one of the most important things I've done in my life. I said, let me put aside that the attrics, the confrontation, the iconoclastic behavior, and listen to what they have to say. And when I listened, it was clear that if I were in their shoes, I would be doing exactly what they were doing. I'd be demonstrating, I'd be, I would be coming with foghorns and disruptions. And when they got our attention, which was my attention, it turned out we were the closest allies and the leaders of the activists who were saying you are a murderer, you know, you're killing us, etc. are now today, some of my closest friends, literally, some of my closest friends. And in anything written about me, you'll see quotes by them of saying he was the one that opened up the door to the activist community, which is what I did. And I'm as proud of that, as I am of any scientific or public health accomplishment that I did, because it showed us in the United States and the world that you have to listen to the people in whom the disease is involving and not always count on your highfalutin judgment about things. So that's what I learned. The criticism with COVID-19 is qualitatively and quantitatively different. It is criticism based on conspiracy theory, based on ideology, instead of science, based on lies, instead of fact. So the people who say, well, you were criticized by the AIDS activists, and now you're criticized by the extreme conspiracy theorists, the QAnons of the world, that's really, really different. Because the AIDS activists were truly on the right path, and just needed somebody to listen to them. This type of criticism is very, very different. So let me just add that I quoted Larry Kramer a moment ago who thought you were evil, but he turned around, he was one of those many people who when you met with him, understood what you were trying to do for that community and you turned him around. Oh, absolutely. He became one of my dear friends. I mean, I visited him when he was in a nurse in a rehabilitation center, after he was seriously ill. I was part of his medical team that took care of him. We got very, very close. Some people don't realize the guy who wrote in the front page of a San Francisco newspaper, an open letter to a complete idiot. I call him a murderer. Here's a guy 20 years later, I'm at his bedside taking care of him. So that's what happens in the world. Of course, and I want to talk about the reaction to COVID-19 in a moment. But but when COVID-19 first reared its head in China late in 2019, what was your sense of what it would do to the to China and to the world? Did you have an intuitive sense, as you did with AIDS, Dr. Fauci, that it would become the pandemic that it's become today? No. And the reason is we had experience with SARS-CoV-1, which came in 2002. And it originated in China from the Guangdong province. A person went from Guangdong to Hong Kong, stayed at a hotel, the Metropolitan Hotel, and then spread it to about 18 or 19 people who got on planes, went all over the world. And then we had the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. So COVID-1, I'm sorry, that was in 2002. It involved 8,000 people and about 785, 800 deaths. But it did not spread efficiently from human to human. So it was contagious. But not anything like SARS-CoV-2 and pure public health measures were able to contain it without a vaccine without a drug without anything was merely identification, isolation, contact tracing. That's what it was. So when you had another outbreak of a virus, which we knew within days, because the Chinese published it on a public database, that it was a coronavirus, which was the same class of virus that we dealt with in 2002. So many of us said, it's a coronavirus, it very well might be acting like the original one, which wasn't particularly transform transmissible easily. So the first reports from China said, Oh, it jumped from an animal to a human, and it's not particularly efficient in transmitting from human to human. Then a few weeks later, we found out, well, wait a minute, something's different here. It is transmitting from human to human. So when we first heard about it, we said it's a coronavirus, we got to watch out for it, we got to be careful. But if it acts like the other coronavirus, good public health measures would likely control it. And then we found out it was really, really different from the 2002 coronavirus, mainly because it was highly transmissible from person to person. And the thing we didn't realize at first, but that really was a game changer was that at least the third and maybe 40% of the people who got infected had no symptoms. So how would you think that a virus that's killing people can have in 30 to 40% of the people no symptoms? It was very puzzling, like what's going on here? And then you find out weeks and months later, that 50 to 60% of the infections are transmitted by someone who has no symptoms, which means you could be walking in a room, and nobody looks sick. And the virus under the radar screen is spreading. That's when we knew we were in deep, deep trouble. That's when we started saying everybody should be wearing a mask, you know, do outdoors more than indoors, you know, don't have congregate setting. So it was an evolving thing when we first said, Oh, another coronavirus probably is going to act like 2002. Or 2012, we had another coronavirus called mayors. You might remember it, it arose in Saudi Arabia, went from a bat to a camel to a human. The 2002 original SARS went from a bat to a civic cat to a human. So it was very, very familiar, except it turned out to be very, very different. We, when the Spanish flu swept over America in 1918, and then when we rolled out the polio vaccine in the 1950s, American seemed to come together around resolving these issues. It's been very different with COVID-19. It seems to have further polarized and already divided nation. How do you explain that, Dr. Fauci? Well, I think one can say now, if ever, there was a time when you didn't want to have a pandemic infectious disease outbreak. It was during a period of intensive divisiveness within your society. So you're absolutely right. The country pulled together at polio with measles. Many, many years ago with smallpox, you know, with the anthrax attacks with 9-11. Right now, unfortunately, we have such a polarization in our society that what normally should be unadulterated public health comments, recommendations, decisions, are met by pushback purely on ideological grounds. And during the outbreak, we had a very unusual president, a president who, as a matter of fact, did not accept the fact that we were having an outbreak because of concern of what it would do to infection and re-electability in the last year. That was the worst possible situation. And that's why you had the very unfortunate situation that I had to in order to maintain my integrity, in order to maintain my responsibility as a public health official to contradict the president of the United States. And he almost forced me to do it publicly because he had these press conferences that you remember where he would get up and start fighting with the press and saying things that were not true about hydroxychloroquine and about this will go away tomorrow and disappear like magic. I had to say no, I'm sorry. That's not true. And what that did was trigger intense hostility towards me as a person or a symbol of someone who was speaking up against the person who represented an ideology that is built on certain things that are incompatible with science, like conspiracy theories and in many respects untruths. That's the reason why I find myself as a public health official in a very unusual situation of being despised by people because that I'm giving what's called in my mind an inconvenient truth to people. Right. Did the president's leadership hold you back from doing your job effectively? As effectively, let me put it another way. Did the president's leadership hold you back from doing your job as effectively as you might have done it? You know, I, I, I, I hesitate so much to say that. But since this is going to go into a library, it's going to be you know, it's going to be something that isn't going to be a sound bite tomorrow. But you always got to worry about those things. The fact is that it was very difficult to be able to get a cogent, consistent public health measure. When I'm trying to tell people, this is something you've got to be concerned about. You've got to abide by these fundamental public health principles. And you are the president of the United States saying it's going to go away tomorrow. Don't worry about it. I tell people only take medications that are proven to work. Don't be experimenting on things that anecdotally are said to work. Do something that's proven. And then you get up there and you start talking about hydroxychloroquine being the cure all. And you have the president listening to the pillow man, as opposed to, you know, I mean, that, that's not easy. That's not easy. Has the backlash against COVID-19 in any way surprised you given the fact that you were able to, to affect a united country around these other diseases, even AIDS, as difficult as it was to deal with the AIDS activists, eventually they came together, you all, you, you all brought together toward the solution for AIDS, the prescription for AIDS. But has this surprised you in any way? It not only surprises me, but it, it in some respects, alarms me not for myself. You know, I'm, I'm 80 years old. I'm not looking for another job. You know, I'm not looking for anything other than the public health of the country. I'm a physician. And as a public health person, my patient is the country in the sense of, you know, watching out for their public health. What bothers me more than the criticism of me is my concern about the country. You know, we, we, this degree of divisiveness is profoundly unhealthy for the democracy. I'm not a politician. I never wanted to be, I never am and I never will be. But when you just look at what's going on in this country, the degree of divisiveness scares me a bit. I mean, how can you have people who are supposedly intelligent in positions of influence, who can look at the TV about what happened on January the sixth and say that was merely just the plain old tourist visit to the Capitol. How could that possibly be? You know, I mean, I wish LBJ were around today that I could run this by him and say, Mr. President, what do you think of that? And just see what his response would have been. Well, I have a pretty good idea what it might be, Dr. Fauci. I'm going to quote you from a interview you did with Smithsonian Magazine in 2016. And you said that the US learned the same, have learned the same lesson every time we have seen the outbreak of an infectious disease. This is before COVID-19, of course, where you said, you've got to be prepared. You've got to have good surveillance. You got to have good diagnostics. You have to move quickly. And we have shown that when you do that, you get good results. So by those measures, how do you think we have done against COVID-19? Well, I think the results speak for themselves, unfortunately. You know, I think we were prepared. Remember, we were voted by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health as the best prepared country for an outbreak. And we did have a good degree of preparedness. But in order to get your arms around an outbreak and prevent it from becoming epidemic, and then prevent it from becoming a pandemic, and then prevent it from being a disaster. Besides some degree of preparedness, you've got to have a coordinated response in which you recognize that the common enemy is the virus. And any differences you have must be put aside. And that's not what happened. The common enemy seemed to be in a circular firing squad at each other. That's not the way you fight a war. That's not the way and when you're fighting a pandemic as serious, and as impactful as COVID-19, you got to consider that a war. And it's no time to have Army, Navy, competitiveness, and, and in all that, you got to be fighting the same enemy. And that's just not really what happened. How do you explain the erosion in our trust in science? Well, that just didn't start with COVID-19. I think there had been a gradual erosion in science, maybe, you know, because of, you know, to be honest with you, I haven't analyzed that as properly as some scholars who study that. But, you know, it goes back to a pushback on authority to social media, which has an a megaphone to inaccuracies, a megaphone to conspiracies, a megaphone for things that make no sense, that, you know, if you have a crazy idea that's totally wrong, and you go around talking about it with all reasonable people who can critique it, you realize, well, that might be a crazy idea. But when you have social media, where you have a ridiculous idea and you throw it out there, and all of a sudden, 10 people say, wow, you're really terrific, we have the same idea. That doesn't make that idea right. That means there are 10 other crazy people out there. Let me ask you a few questions that have been posed from members of our audience. And one relates to this. She says, how do we change how science is taught in the public schools so people will better understand the process behind researching and bringing a vaccine to the public? And therefore, one hopes, we're willing to get vaccinated. You know, that's a great question, whoever asked that, because we have really fallen back on our STEM education, you know, science, technology, engineering, you know, it's just that we become less of a science oriented society, even in the younger individuals who are coming up as well as adult utilization and learning of the sciences. Because if you have no interest in, or don't appreciate science, you can be led astray by things that are obviously not true, but you have no reason or way of evaluating the veracity of it. It's just like, oh, well, it's there, somebody said it. But if you have some background in science, you may be able to critique it a little bit better. Right. Another member of our audience asks, what is the best method for persuading a non vaccinated person to get vaccinated in your experience? I think the best way is to get a trusted messenger, you know, rather than have always government officials or people like myself who are, you know, represent whether I'm speaking for the CDC or the FDA or the president himself as his chief medical advisor, is to get people in the community trusted messages, they could be clergymen, they could be a family physician or a nurse or a family member, could be a sports figure, could be an entertainment figure is to get people at the local grassroots level to explain and answer the valid questions that people have about why I'm concerned about getting vaccinated. Many of those questions are extraordinarily valid. They just need to be answered. Another question from a member of our audience, pursuant to what you were talking about earlier, after losing one in 500 Americans to COVID-19, what are the major takeaways we've learned that might prevent a loss of life next time around? Yeah, it gets to one of the other questions you asked is about the better prepared you are, the better you will response. And when you come to outbreaks, you know, epidemics and pandemic responses are both preparation and response. So you've got to make sure that you bolster up that very, very intensively. And in this case, communication is also very important. I mean, there's no doubt I was asked this question very recently about if we had done this, would all of those deaths have been avoidable? No, no chance. When you get a pandemic, even if you do everything perfectly, if you have an epidemic or a pandemic as devastating as COVID-19, you could prepare and respond perfectly. And you're still going to have a lot of deaths. What you can prevent is the magnitude of the death and disease burden. So it's a false narrative and an almost an unanswerable question. Could we have prevented all these deaths? We could have prevented some of them. Let me give you an example that we're leading living with right now. We have 70 million people in this country who are unvaccinated, who are eligible to be vaccinated. Those people are at risk of getting infected and dying. The fact that they're not vaccinated means if they do get infected, get sick and die, that would have been an avoidable death. You've been doing this for nearly 40 years. You began leading the National Institute for Allergies and Infectious Diseases in 1984 during the middle of the Reagan administration. It's a pretty intense job as we've seen in seeing you in the public light since COVID-19 broke out almost two years ago. What keeps you going, Dr. Fauci? I think it's the importance of the problem and what I've devoted my life to, and I will continue to do this until I stop doing it, is medicine, science and my desire to make a contribution in the area of health and science that would leave the world a better place. My arena is health, science and medicine. When you focus on the enormity of the problem and what you can do to mitigate that problem, it gives you an extraordinary amount of energy and an extraordinary amount of resilience and an extraordinary amount of passion to do it. It gets back to one of your prior questions that the slings and the arrows and all that other stuff, I don't like it, but the problem that I'm dealing with transcends all of that. And it's trivial compared to the fact that you can actually save someone's life by what you do, by what you say, by the example you set. So if somebody doesn't like me because I'm somehow don't agree with their ideological whatever it is that they're saying, you know, I'd rather that not be the case. But that doesn't deter me from what my major focus is to prevent people from getting sick and to prevent them from dying. Well, we do this conversation 54 years after Linda Johnson signed the the disease cancer and stroke amendment of 1967 that was done literally 54 years ago today. On that occasion, Dr. Fauci, President Johnson said it has been written men who occupy in the restoration of health to other men are above all the great on earth. They even partake of divinity, since to preserve and renew is almost as noble as to create. Dr. Fauci, those words certainly apply to you. And we thank you not only for this conversation tonight, but for all you have done through your years of service to keep us a healthier nation. Thank you so much. Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure and an honor to be with you, particularly anything that has to do with a really great president. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. I hope you log into zoom at 8pm for our continued conversations with Dr. Desmar walks, medical director and health authority for the city of Austin. Dr. walks will speak about the COVID-19 pandemic from a local perspective and answer your questions. I hope you'll join us for upcoming programs, including those with author and media veteran Neil Spels, Washington Post journalists and bestselling coauthors, Bob Woodward and Robert Costa and civil rights activist Martin Luther King, the third registration for those programs is available online lbj library.org. These programs are made possible by generous support from the Moody Foundation and contributions from our members like you. If you aren't already part of the lbj library community, you can support programs like this by joining us at lbjfriends.org. I mark up to Grove. See you next time.