 Hey, hey, how's it going? Yeah, finally here after like missing the last thing I think Hey, we we kept changing the time on you. So The movie great movie meaning I'm just trying to like it might get my life together I'm like about to have instant noodles for lunch. So you're fine What are you having for lunch instant noodles is like I don't know. It's just so busy right now Lunch sounds great. It's four o'clock here See, I think stop God Jesus when he first what happened in July it's no summer They want to write nap on the agenda was that nap an instant noodles Okay, um Hello, everyone, I guess we're recorded. This is awkward because I've already started Welcome to sick contributor strategy our contributor growth working group for July 21st 2020 Post our notes here in chat. I know it's just the two of us, but I'm gonna take this very seriously There we go. So confidence is something that I really liked Josh made like a content tracking of all the things that we'd like to do as a working group content we like to make so I Made Kind of kicked off an issue for this But I'm hoping we can kind of brainstorm other pieces of content that we'd like to create here in this issue right now and Jennifer Hey, I just got out of the Two hours of meeting so I am going to go quickly get a beverage and then I'll be right back Sorry, I just started writing down some of the things that I know, you know always has to be and You know repo We also now finally have a project templates repository. It's just pretty cool. I Think most of the things that this working group creates is gonna end up here. Okay Which is pretty exciting. So let me link that here as well Yeah, we still need to make this a template repository, but that's the idea is that it should be like This one right here for example where you can say use this template and It'll then kick you off into making a new repository from it. Oh, well, okay, that's the idea So we have contributing pretty far along I think that's pretty much right at the point where I can submit this as a PR I know I said that a couple times, but now we have repo so Should do that sweet I started a contribution ladder No, I think we have a whole bunch of examples Ready for people to start working on templates Oops, I agreed with your comment and then it didn't didn't take your comment. Thank you So, I don't know if there's more But the idea is then hopefully we can have people start working on pieces of content instead of all of us working on one at a time We make a little bit more progress as we keep tugging along on these things is your contribution ladder template Supposed to be like the same as like that of nerds one With that still be separate Um, let me so It'd be different from the owner's file. So there's a whole bunch of different examples The idea is that it lays out what are Possible roles. Yeah And then how to how to get it and what are the responsibilities and things like that. So here couple Yeah, like here's one from open stack They kind of tell you like what's like to be a team lead How do you get it? What do you have to do to keep it? Things like that All it is interesting. Where would we it's we should have a I mean Not everyone uses owner's files. Do you think we should urge them to do that? Um, I mean, yeah I think we probably just want to like put as much out there and like not necessarily expect our point to use everything Provide as a template but like if Because I feel like the owner's file is like the quickest way to find like The stakeholders whenever if like if and when I need something Yeah, yeah so when it comes to specific files like I feel like one of the things to go back to is um What the role of this specific working group is Um, and and like make sure That lines up Sorry, I also have migraines. So I'm all like My words may not make sense at all. So So when we talk about owner's file like if I think about contributor growth We're talking about sustainably growing The contributor base This is like the templates like conversation, right and I think like this would I don't know. I guess like This would still be Resource to help people early on. I don't know. I gather you're saying no No, it is like if I look at number one goal provide best practices and resources for managing and interacting with contributors to cncf projects That fits right in there. So it's it because the the the fine coloring I think about is like What is the owner's file for and we're talking about stakeholders and like that the project has specific Stakeholders that are documented And how to contact people And maybe the owner's file is one of those things that we include as a template I don't think everybody uses it though Can I clarify real quick two things? Owner's file means something specific in github, doesn't it if it's who gets paying to review Paigned for review and something else, isn't it? What's the something else? Someone from each file needs to sign off Good to see you here. Yeah. So the other requirement is within github enforced by prow I don't within github within kubernetes enforced by prow If you are in a specific owner's file Then someone who is an approver from that file Needs to sign off On any change that touches that directory. Follow me Is that a github thing or a kubernetes thing? That's a kubernetes thing. Okay so Jennifer the um The and something else that you were referring to Like how to contact people etc. Was that? something beyond approval or The thing of it is like people you would like like if you What information you get out of the? owners file And so if I know if I look And maybe this is just my hack If there is an owner's file if there are sub projects Uh or sub directories inside of it Say for example documentation And someone is specifically assigned to that area I know I can talk to that person about Stuff Or if it's like it's just everything is everybody then it's just like a grab bag But as far as Just Making a template repository Um I think this is something that we've said Before the governance and contributor growth are going to have overlap And the governance overlaps with owners file a lot We're just suggesting for templates that we should have an owner's file um What we put in it as far as the template content and suggestion for what people should Put in there or whatever whatever the text ends up being in there other than maybe saying how to use it Um, we'll probably be a collaborative effort between the two working groups Listen I would tend to I would tend to see the information on The governance portion of things is how do you decide who gets to be an owner? Yeah and um I wouldn't see that going into the owner's file template itself. Okay Like because the who gets to be an owner rules is going to be a public document for the project So that would be in contributors.md or governance.md or whatever Okay, rather than being in the actual owner's file That's the other file that we're missing here is a governance That md which is covered by the governance working group Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of back and forth here because for projects that actually create actual role documentation The contributor growth portion of roles is kind of inseparable from the governance portion of roles So it's just going to be shared documents. Yeah, should I not list things out like that then this should I just talk about things that are Going to be handled by us then. Okay No, either way and I can put that in there. It's fine. Okay. Just so we like are aware that it's going to go in the templates or Yeah, I think it's helpful to say like like we we did think about this and we did categorize it as Going to this other working group. Okay, as long as we're close I just want to make sure I'm not making more work for people But I don't want people to think like why did we forget x is all Are there other major files that we want to think about at the beginning for What should go in the template repo? You know, let me put it in previously so you can see A lot of this is populated from our discussion on thursday From conservative strategy Is it wrong to say that There should be a code guidelines Wouldn't it be in contributing that md? Not necessarily at all. So Do you mean like uh Like because we don't have it in ours In our template Of the examples we had decided not to put that type of stuff in there contributing either So when you say code guidelines I feel like that helps new contributors because like instead of like There's so many assumptions We have them in the shop community like here is our expectations of code And like follow these practices Um, we even provided like cook style So like if you run cook style against your repository it would give you the recommendations about the specific Oh that we would have issues in the contributing One second. Let me let me see if this matches what you're talking about It isn't it isn't so the pr checklist I feel like the checklist is like a uh like a shorter thing And the guidelines might be um like I don't know So maybe you had lintine or any specific things that we're going to be The code would be vetted again. So if we were going to run style checks lintine anything It should be listed out, but it's very specific to the project Yes, like it's not something this is not something I think we can tell people This is what it should look like, but it should be something that exists Yeah, I use suggesting It be called out differently in the contributing or it should be a separate document Um It could be either a separate document or an additional uh header number two Like it's separate from pull request checklist I mean maybe I'm just trying to I don't think we need to like do the the changes here I'm just trying to understand if I should add a separate document to our checklist here Or we should add a task to edit the contributing template more I think edit edit the add a task for editing the contributing template Okay And you can assign that one to me if you want there you go. That's what I was going to Oh, would you call it a style? No Codes Coding guidelines or something Thanks Were there any other Files I just saw like on the envoy repo that they have a file for like the dco stuff Yeah That's in contributing. I think Um, yeah, we explain how to sign your commits for dco or for cli Okay I made some edits. I don't know if you saw the these in the contributing template At least I thought I did Oops, I'm sorry. I may have missed it. It's been a rough week No, I'm wondering if I actually can you link the Oh, no. Yeah, here you see me sharing the document Yeah, I see you sharing it. Yeah, I was making sure Oh, yeah, I think it's I think it shows up as an I I am an anonymous user making edits when I made an edit Oh weird Um, like it shows my comment is me The release cycle Yeah, I see your comment here. Um But the release cycle looks like Uh, so what did I mean by this? Um So so you have this is out of scope how to cut a release so like that's a maintainer guide, but The What is the release cycle shows what? Um so so If I write a pull request, but like if I write some code I make a pull request Does it go in immediately and it's released? Or is it batched up and then a new release is cut and so like what the release cycle is this just Here's how we release stuff Here's like the phases of the release And I don't know if that's Covered somewhere in here I mean when I reviewed it didn't feel like it Was covered in here I think there's there's there's two things One is in general, how do we Version what's our release strategy? Um, which I think a lot of projects have to answer when they submit to CNCF actually like Release it used to be part of the template. You have to explain your release strategy um Or your versioning strategy Uh, but for for that very specific scenario you gave Um, basically like will this immediately get released or will it get batched up? Some of that's really Specific I think to one of the sections we have which is the life cycle Right That'd be a great question what the pull requests like when does my pull requests get Maybe that maybe that does cover it like we don't we don't ask it. Do we we don't We don't have a bullet point for it though. We got it. Yeah Maybe not my askings of for this split people's time off just writing stuff. Um Because like depending on uh, what what type of change it is they may get hot fixed It may be in a batch they may go really quickly. I mean, I know like on the projects I'm on Uh, like not everything's like kubernetes where it just goes pretty regularly, um I feel like the to-do might we might forgive what to do means Oh doesn't put the comments on top of it. That's why Oh It's okay I just want to avoid spending all of our time word smithing because I was trying to make this a little a little higher level So you can make sure to get I'm sorry. I don't know. It's fine. Just your comments That's okay. Um Are there any other templates that we were hoping to create or maybe uh advisories To go along with them to help people understand I think we were calling out a couple of them in the comments that we wanted to make along with them Uh, let's go on through our comments right now. Make sure we didn't identify any over across life cycle That explains philosophy. Yeah I feel in the reviewing guidelines, which is out of scope. There is also a dealing with uh Dealing with the the border lines of toxic uh contributions I just want to say that out loud They might not violate the the word of the code of conduct But they violate the spirit of a code of conduct or like community values Yeah, that was something we put in here is that we want to one just talk about more than just the code of conduct We want to talk about community values in general Defining the values of the community Do we actually put that in there? No, it was a comment that we wanted to do this. Okay, cool Sorry, I read this before the meeting and I remember we It's somewhere in here. We wanted to talk it was in the It was our last meeting. Um, we wanted to define the community values Um, and then it's part of this and this was just an advisory like supplemental Paper or something not as a template We want to talk about community values like Beyond a code of conduct because I think CNCF kind of has a standard code of conduct the um Contributor coveted. Um, and so that I think that really flows in a while with what you're saying, which is how to uh How to like foster those values and um Deal with people who Really are hurting the community essentially through towing a line to the code of conduct maybe to the stripped letter But are definitely not following the values You know Uh, it's really hard by the way to write about some of this stuff. Um and not end up Immediately drawing Like moths of the flame people who want to Engage in very bad faith with whatever you just wrote by the way, so when we write something like this expect Engagement from people negative engagement Just so you know it's meant What? Engagements Yeah, I'm just saying Yes It's okay. I'm I'm ready for a new open SSL That the the whole not conversation they had It's fine It's all good Someone is almost something that it'd be interesting to redirect To uh a smaller safer place to initially have their conversations To the maintainer circle just to to get People thinking about it and and collect uh people's anonymous anonymized Experiences on how to deal with these things You know It's tricky. It's really tricky Just speaking from having been on a couple of code of conduct committees. Are there any other? Things that maybe we'd like to Start thinking about I mean we have a whole bunch here. Um We could just start working on but I just want to make sure that we kind of Took time to think about it before that we just went off and right and we don't stop to then think about what else we wanted to write about I think there's a big chunk and it's it it's very meaty I think there's areas where we can build off on and we might Realize but I think in the moment. This is like the big high level Uh overview, okay um Yeah, I think This is this is almost maybe a larger one for a series and mentoring or like fostering people through contributor letter right We could get There's so much work in that and the and just the good first issue and help wanted like really Doing good first issues That would be magical. Yeah, that that's the content that I was talking about that's currently uh, that wrote for kubernetes that I'd like to Contribute up higher to the cncf Um, and then if we could expand on it and get more people's perspectives and links and make it into a more of a series or collection of uh People's thoughts That'd be really really great Are people interested maybe in taking on a couple of these like I'll put my name next to getting the contributor the q reading guide past the finish line to anyone else able to say they can spend you know an hour To to try to start or get any of these going Can you pair with me on some? Sorry can you pair with me on some I haven't done this before so I'm happy to help but I also like Want to like put it out there that I don't totally know what I'm doing Yeah, yeah, yeah, um I think the Contribution ladder would be the the one next that we're trying to get get rolling I will pair with Karen Okay, sounds good. Okay. That'd be great And work with Karen on something How come Karen I can never tag you are you okay is your name on is it right? I think no, it's Karen age two, but it didn't come up either So I think you need to accept your invite To the organization or something like I thought I did that and then maybe when I try to do it my invite expired and I think I Pinned chris and I don't know. Um, let me let me dig up some emails and follow up on that. Yeah. Okay. Okay Okay. Oh, I put you on code of conduct No, okay, um, let me let me do this one and I'm gonna Default it To uh the cncf one Just so I actually saw people submitting to sandbox to cncf uh Right now to this day getting uh rejected because they did not have code conduct so This is an easy one that we can help people So I don't want to oversubscribe people. So I think we'll just stop right there And just be like that is enough Okay, and we'll just keep slowly working on it We do we have a specific area That like we have a project Place we're doing this out that's in github versus Is that all google docs? um, so we can do what we want uh We wanted to avoid putting things into the templates Repository before we're finished with them So by the time they're committed it should be safe for people to clone and use Okay So I was leaning towards Using in the google doc and then making sure that people had edit rights I was that's why I was like messaging people and asking them for their Email addresses so they could edit uh And be able to put changes in themselves I apologize if I missed anyone so please let me know if I if I made a mistake on that um but we also have the option of submitting prs to Say contributor strategy and maybe just putting it in a folder for our working group. We have a working group folder um And I think it would be fine if we put our drafts in there while we're working on it We probably like just make a drafts folder if that's Easier for people to manage. I think it's kind of more difficult though to leave comments and kind of really uh churn on things as we have but I'll let people decide how they they find it easier to collaborate asynchronously um I was more I was thinking for like the issue templates Can you explain what is there something special about the issue templates? Oh, I just wanted to make the sample issue templates and like iterate there versus having a separate Google doc for them, but maybe it's fine It's probably fine I'm feeling really Dense Do you mean to be easier to do it in a github repo because you can see them and trust them? Yeah, see how they like how they look they actually look in the repo because you know sometimes like the check Is and you're using the different markdown versus Versus it's not just text. Yeah, you know what I would encourage um Let's just can we just make a repo that just like puts up in there Uh and give people permissions on it whoever's collaborating on it and then when it's ready. We'll put it in the template repo cool Does that seem Okay, he's fine to me. I'm just yeah, that's kind of where I was going there, but yeah, okay, and we Yeah, I see why that's special. Um, they're a little different Sorry, it took me minutes really Understand why that was different cool Josh, is there anything special that we should be collaborating with governance on right now that we need to be aware of or Doing better. Um No, I mean a lot of this stuff on the template repo. We're also going to want to put stuff on Yeah, so Obviously the sooner you can push drafts the better because then we can start adding things to them. Yeah The um, I did actually have a question for you about the template repo. Sure. Yeah So this came up in our meeting this morning And so the problem is that some things we want to template Don't fit easily within a kind of fill in the blank format Like particularly things like governance structures where it's like If you're gonna have self-selecting maintainers that you want something kind of like this if you're gonna have elections then Here's this long document. You know with examples of how to run elections Where I'm not sure that putting it all in one file Where you say select the portion that applies to you is really going to work Um, you know that there are a few a couple areas like that mainly governance structure Where it feels like we actually need to have multiple files And have them choose the file that applies to them and I just wasn't sure how to structure that I think that makes a lot of sense. We need you to have a couple of files Called like governance food governance dash bar That means dash whatever and then a main governance That's like you need to pick one and delete the others Or something along those lines where we give them instructions Yeah, go with whatever makes sense. We haven't hit something that was that long for me yet Yeah Well, it would it came up because we were looking at advice around how to structure your leadership selection Yeah, it was like okay an actual template for this is not going to be small Yeah, um the um so The um You know it may come up for other things Not sure what though You know that that makes sense. We haven't had to have like the largest, uh, you know, either or for us has been tco versus cla um We was still like small enough that we were just have people delete which one They didn't want to use um, but for something like that. I think separate files makes a lot of sense. Yeah The um, okay. Yeah, so I mean that's it, you know It's it's going to be a lot of sort of the same material Because I mean one of the things I want to keep in mind here is for the smaller projects They're kind of what going to want to have well I mean they're required by the cnc of rules to split things among like two or three documents But they're going to want to have everything within those two or three documents Um because their stuff is just not that complicated. Yeah the um I mean honestly, I just we just did the one for operator framework and We we did all our drafts as one document because it was only three and a half pages long And then we broke it up into the required cncf files. So Oh cncf required of separate files cncf requires you specifically to have a contributing that md file or analog And a governance that mdi file or analog Okay, can I peek at what you did you said you went through this for operator framework? Did this is this like live somewhere in a repo I can look at um, I'm not sure it's been I It should be um, at least as a pr Um, I'll have to find it though Okay, because it started out as a google doc the um, oh, okay, and um, so Because operator framework just got accepted into sandbox. Yeah, they now have to do all their stuff Um, yeah, I was just curious mostly just like an example of what someone has just gone through like going through the process I was just curious because I want to match it up with the templates we started doing and be like, are we matching reality? Yeah, yeah, so let me let me find let me find the actual public github version. Yeah, okay great Okay, cool. Okay, cool. Um, you know, this is really all we have on the agenda for today. Um I think everyone who wanted some content assigned to them has something assigned um So Let me know if there's anything I can help with otherwise. That's it Thanks everybody