 Okay, we're back. We're live at a 4 p.m. block here on a given Wednesday, and we're talking about we're talking about electric vehicles today. We're talking about one electric's target of doing 100% by 2035, which is not that far off. I get 15 years away, and we have Peter Ross. I could talk for Hawaiian Electric. He's a spokesman for Hawaiian Electric, and we get my co-host Mitch Ewan, and he's going to help me with this show. So Mitch, why don't you start by introducing Peter? You know him for about 400 years. It shouldn't be a challenge. Well, I've only known Peter for 18 years, so I have a little ways to go, but yeah, Peter Ross is a spokesman for Hawaiian Electric. I've been brought a loss for a word, and jumped in when we needed him most, so you can always count on Peter to come in and give us a good overview on what's going on with our electric company. So welcome, Peter, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about electric vehicles. Right. Great. Great to be here, Mitch. Great to be here, Jenny. To be absolutely clear, we're talking about 100% of what we call our passenger vehicles. That is to say our sedans, our minivans, our SUVs, and our very light trucks. We have about, all told, we have about 925 vehicles in the fleet across our five islands, and about 40% or 400 or so of those are in this classification of, they're called Class 1 if you're a connoisseur of these things. So they're the four or six passenger sedans, SUVs, and so forth. And we are committed as part of a national campaign to reach 100% of those vehicles, plug in electric by 2035. We certainly hope we'll have more of the other kinds of vehicles as they become available. So far, heavy pickups are not readily available on the market. There are some companies that are hoping to break into that space, including Tesla, but right now it's pretty expensive to get a heavy duty vehicle, electric vehicle. So we can't commit to that, but as they become available, we'll go after those as well. So really two things are happening. First of all, we're going to try to reduce that 925 number where we had an audit of the company, as you may remember, and we committed to making this the most efficient company possible, and though that might require a little less convenience, but we'll get by with fewer vehicles. And so we're going to be reducing the vehicles overall, and as we replace these vehicles that are passenger vehicles, we'll do it with electrics, plug in electrics over the next 15 years. So we figured out that based on the lifetime use of these vehicles, about eight to 10 years, and the rate that we retire them, we're pretty confident that we can make that commitment. I don't know if you do your own maintenance, but if you do, there's a benefit in trying to stay with the same manufacturer, and for that matter, the same model. Are you going to do that, or are you going to take all cumbers? Well, depending on what we are getting, we just bought a bunch of of IKEA Nero's. They're kind of smallish SUVs, but they can hold four or six people, and there's room in the back. We bought a bunch of those. They're working out very well. They're very economical, and we'll continue to get that. But at any given moment, we'll look at the market and say, what's out there, and what's cheap? We do have to be careful. We're not buying any Teslas for the company, I can promise you. We're buying the most workman-like, the most workperson-like, if you will, vehicles that we can get because part of the expense of a new vehicle is an upfront cost. So of course, we do our own maintenance, and we will, we'd rather not have, if we're going to have 50 cars, we'd rather not have 50 different ones. We'd rather have 10, 10, 10, 10, so that we do, it's easier to manage our parts and manage our labor and so forth, obviously. But we're not wedded to any one manufacturer. We're not wedded to any one model because the models are coming out and changing. This Nero was not available a year or so ago, and when it became available, our folks took a look at it and said, yeah, we can use that. So we see what the market's got. What about charging stations? I recall going to an event you guys planned at the Ward Avenue facility, where you had installed the number of charging stations. And I guess that was for the public also, wasn't it? I don't remember who was going to be served by that. But is that the kind of charging station facility you're going to have or build for these cars? Well, we've got a growing number of fast chargers that are open to the public across the islands. We're at about 19 or 20 out of a potential 25 that we're allowed to install. We've got some on Molokan, on Maui, on Big Island, mostly here on Oahu, especially out in the rural areas so that people who are driving out to Kapolei or driving out to, when we're inside, will know there's a fast charger available. And those are open to anybody. But also within our facility, we have a number of chargers, and we'll definitely install more as we get more and more electric vehicles. Most of our vehicles are charged overnight on a level two charger. So there's not an emergency, but we have the ability to do fast charging as well. So if something has to be charged quickly, we will do that. And if we can keep the charge up overnight, like most people will do at home, we'll do it at our yards. And so it's not that different, if you think about it, than gasoline. We have our own pumps at the, for example, at Ward Avenue, we have our own tank, we have our own pump, and we are able to fill up all the conventional vehicles from our own pump. But if somebody's driving around and they run out of gas, they'll go into a public gas station and fill up. And same with somebody who happens to be driving around for whatever reason, they don't have a charge. They'll look for one of our fast chargers and they'll fill up in that way. So it's not, in that sense, it's not that different. But we will need to build in more charged stations, obviously, as we go from our number now, which is about 100 or so, 80 to 100 electric vehicles to about 400 electric vehicles, obviously, it'll take more charging facilities. The good news is that, you know, once you've installed them, they're cheaper than gasoline. The power is cheaper by about a third. So you get more, you get more miles for your oath there. And there's also, we do our own maintenance, but electric vehicles are virtually maintenance-free. You've got to change the tires, you've got to change the windshield wiper pads. But overall, you don't have to worry about radiators or spark plugs or any of that sort of thing. How do you deal with the deterioration of the batteries? Because after X years, you know, these cars require a new battery, are you going to stop batteries or are you just going to get new cars? I think probably we will get, by and large, we'll get new cars because the lifespan of the battery or the point at which the battery begins to deteriorate and the point at which the vehicle itself is not really useful for us is about the same, eight to 10 years, I think. So, but those batteries still have a life of their own. They can be used in a number of different uses, including they can be bolted together and become a battery that is used to store electricity for when you need it. And, you know, when you have a vehicle, obviously, you want to have a very high, you want your battery to be at a very high capacity, 95, 100%. When you have a battery sitting in a block with 10 other batteries, it can have a 50% capacity and it's still able to serve your needs. So, there are developments, there are ways that are, those things are going to have a use long after they are no longer usable in a car that's driving around. They can be stationary and they can be used to power things. So, they will have a long life and we're, and when that's over, I think we'll be looking for ways to recycle as many of the components as possible. So, you know, we're not just of the life span. And the disposal issues. Exactly. Yeah. But what about range? You know, because you guys do a lot of traveling, depends on the island, of course. And so, you've got to be seeking a certain range capability for all these cars. What have you framed down as the desired range? Well, the Nissan Leaf, which was our first full electric model that we use a lot of, that had about an 80 to 100 mile range and we found that you could, you could leave Ward and you could get out to the North Shore and come back. But the last 20 or 30 minutes of that ride was a little nervous because, you know, the battery was getting lower and lower. So, by and large, most electric vehicles now are above that 100, 120, 150. The mileage there, the capacity, the range is going up all the time. But for sure, we want to be, you know, we want just like anybody else to be assured that if we need to, we can get another charge. And if it has to be to pull into one of our fast chargers, that's what we'll do and we'll pay for the electricity. And just like anybody else would pay for it at that point. The big island is probably the most challenged on range, obviously. The long distance between Helo and the Kona side, even when you get over the Kona side, there's a big distance to get up to Javi or down to Captain Cook and so forth. So, you know, we will obviously look at that when we decide where the vehicles are going to go. And, you know, we'll be able to put a vehicle with a shorter range here on Oahu, where the distances are not that great. When we have a vehicle with a much longer range, we'll probably put it on big island and somewhere in the middle is Maui, which has some long drives, but yeah. So, obviously, what we're going to buy and where we're going to put it, what we need, you know, that we got guys in the fleet department, we got a very smart guy, Kelvin Kohasu, who's running the whole fleet from Helo. And he's, you know, that's what he does. He figures out what do we need? Do we need just something to move three or four people? Or do we need something to move three or four people at some equipment? And, you know, that's why we pay him the big bucks. He doesn't know they're big bucks, but we pay him, we pay him and we depend on him to figure out what we need and make sure we have what we need. But as we're doing that, we're going to make sure we have what we need and it's electric. So, it's a big change, but another way it's just what it's always been, how many sedans, how many light trucks, how many SUVs and so forth. That's kind of not changing. I don't think people realize that if you're in the electric utility business, you have infrastructure to every last, you know, mile in these islands and you are responsible for it. You have to make sure it works. It's being maintained and that means visiting it. It means getting out there. And so you have plenty of miles to travel to be sure you're doing that. So, the fleet seems to me just from this discussion is a very important part of the apparatus of the electric company, you know? Absolutely. Even the meter readers have to get out to the neighborhoods where they're going to do the meter reading. And, you know, we're now using drones more and more to inspect the equipment that you've been talking about. But the drone pilots and the drones have to get in a vehicle and get out, you know, close enough to the poles or the equipment. You know, we're all over. And I think anybody that drives around this or any of our islands probably, you know, the only you probably see more, more mail trucks and you probably may see more path, you know, the lab trucks or the clinical laboratory trucks and UPS and FedEx. But I think after that, we're probably, you know, we're probably right up there among the vehicles you see the most of because we're out there. We have to get out there and make sure all that good equipment is working. A short digression is in these times I feel you mentioned the mail trucks. I feel a greater emotional attachment to the mail trucks, the U.S. Postal Service. So I've committed to tip them when they come around and give me the mail. Really? Maybe I should tip the Hawaiian electric trucks, too. You're not talking about tipping them over, right? You're talking about tipping them over. Thank you very much. Okay. You know, don't be chipped. Don't, you know, our guys work and get paid and, you know, we love a thank you, but we don't need a tip. I feel the same way you do about the Postal Service these days. They're going to be delivering our election and, you know, they're doing it right now. And those folks are out there on the front lines as many other of the, you know, the helpers and essential workers are, and they're out there. The one thing you can say on their behalf is that they have a lot less traffic to deal with right now than they normally do. It's good for them. But, you know, otherwise, it's not a, it's a good job and it's an important job, but it's, it's a difficult one. You don't always think about that for your mail carrier, but I give them a lot of credit. So, yeah, we're, you know, we're hoping, by the way, that eventually then the mail on the UPS and the FedEx, in some cities, they have FedEx a little electric. They look like bicycles, but they're basically electric bikes or small electric vehicles that do the UPS delivery or FedEx delivery because, you know, a lot of that's right in town. It's easier to get through traffic. So, we see a lot of opportunities. You know, we're, the other thing we're working on, we are working on a, what's called a make ready prospect or new rates for fleet for heavy users of electric vehicles. So there'll be cheaper rates for people who have fleets. And, you know, that's another way we're going to be encouraging people to think about switching to a fleet of electric vehicles when possible. And if you can, do smaller ones, do lighter ones. And, you know, that, that's going to be useful. We've got to, we just proposed what we call a make ready for buses, where we will install all the wiring up to the place where the bus company, where the city bus or where a tourist bus will install an electric vehicle charger. They'll buy the charger, they'll buy the vehicle, but we'll put in the wiring and the electricity right up to the point of the charger, which is unusual for us. Usually we don't go beyond the meter, as you know. So we're looking away. We have a very aggressive new head of our electrification of transportation group. Her name is Aki Marceau. She's, she's a, you know, she's a fireball, if I may say that. Yes, she is. I would agree. I think that's sexist, is it? You know, so she's, she's terrific. And she's driving a dedicated group of people who are filing filings with the, and getting more of these chargers out there. And they've been having some, what they call it, EMO, EMobility Dialogues with, you know, all the stakeholders getting 50, 60, 75 stakeholders on a webinar to talk about how we're going to, how we're going to do this. I just had the misfortune of reading some blogger, a local guy, I forget, he used to be on television. But he said, Oh, no, he means aren't happening. And he's so wrong. You know, nothing's happening as fast as we wish, obviously, because of COVID and because of some other things. But EVs are happening. And the people that say they're not are, you know, they've been breathing the seams. We have to dovetail this with hydrogen cars and vehicles. And, Mitch, I'd like to, you know, ask you to weigh in on this and get Peter to talk about it. We view hydrogen vehicles as electric vehicles. And so does the legislature because the past legislation designating hydrogen vehicles as electric vehicles, with all the same advantages that the current battery electric vehicles get. We're big friends of battery electric vehicles, because our hydrogen vehicles all have a battery in them as well, so that we can use regenerative braking and we use it for acceleration. And the other part is our fuel cell keeps the battery healthy. So it'll last longer and actually in years. And also you can get over that range anxiety. And you can recharge them very quickly, like under five minutes, which is a really good advantage. So I got my little plug in. Thank you for that. But I have a question for Peter, you know, I'm driving around in my battery electric vehicle. I'm getting range anxiety. I drive by a HECO fast charger. Have you guys developed a process? Is it free for me to go and plug in? Or have you guys developed a pay as you play kind of situation now? Like, can I have a special card that allows me to charge and you guys get paid for it? How's that work? It's not free, just like the gasoline station is not free. It is based on the time of you're using it. So during the middle of the day, for example, when we have a lot of solar and we have a lot of excess electricity on the grid, it's cheaper to charge your vehicle. Or if you're a night owl and you're out at midnight, you want to charge at that time, it's cheaper as well. But we definitely charge for the fast charger use and we charge just like gasoline. We charge by how much you take. So if you need a little top off, it will be a lower price than if you need a lot more. And it is based on a credit card or some of them are based on a membership card that you can insert. All of them also allow you to do it by telephone. You get out your smartphone and call and they're able to, on some of them, they're able to do it that way. So one of the things we want to get is to get that to be a little more standardized. But today you are, it's pretty much the same in many respects as gasoline. And I would go back to your comments about hydrogen. We agree with you. Right now there are gasoline cars on the road and there are diesel cars on the road. And they have a little different performance characteristics and different uses. And there's nothing, there's no law that says everything has to be the battery electric that we're talking about. I think there's room for several different kind of modes and they have different uses. I think especially, as I understand it, heavy duty vehicles might be better off with hydrogen than there are and they would be with just the standard electricity. So, you know, specialty vehicles and all kinds, and specialty needs will be accommodated by different kinds of vehicles just like you get an SUV or a sedan. So there are always going to be choices and as the choices increase, I think all drivers will be happier because we all like to make choices about what we drive in and how we drive and, you know, what we're seeing in. So yeah, we're, we have a question I can't, I couldn't see that. Oh yeah, there is a question. Are hybrid cars just as good as electric cars in your opinion, Peter? Well, a hybrid, as you know, is like a Prius is the most common one. It's a combination of perfectly good cars. Some of the Prius models are plug-in, some of them are just regenerative. So, you know, there's, I work for Hawaiian electric and Hawaiian electric. We like all electric battery plug-ins. Those are the ones, you know, that we're fond of stuff. But, you know, they're, very frankly, just don't, don't tell the company, I said this, but there's some model, there's some gasoline model cars that get very high mileage and they're very efficient and they have low emissions and, you know, that's good too. We want to reduce emissions. We want to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. And, you know, so we want, and we want, you know, the best deal we can get. And if that is a hybrid, more power to you. If it's an all-electric plug-in, more power to you as well. We, you know, it's the goal. It's not so important how we get there. And we think anybody that wants to make a contribution, well, can find a way whether they go with a hybrid or go with an all-electric or, you know, get a, get a tiny little smart car that gets a gazillion miles to the gall. It all helps. And, but I think we are definitely slowly, somewhat painfully perhaps moving toward an all-electric fleet. And that's going to be good for everybody, especially, you know, in vehicles and in buses and in trucks. You know, when the buses in Makiki and in my neighborhood here don't emit so much diesel fumes and don't make so much noise, life will be better. So, you know, there's an upside beyond the environment. And, you know, the more, from the electric company's point of view, I will say, the more electric vehicles using the more electricity increases the amount of electricity that we sell. And that means we can lower prices. It really is, you know, that kind of simple thing. More demand equals lower prices because we distribute the costs of things over a wider bunch of customers. So, we think it's a win, but I would be, I would never say don't buy a, don't buy a Prius. And I never even say don't buy a really high mileage, you know, gasoline car. It might be your last one, but that's what you want to do. If you want to add anything to this about the hybrid. Well, the form of a hybrid, yeah, I think a hybrid is a very good solution. Just like we said, you know, the engines are very efficient. They, in the hybrid mode, they operate at the best efficiency so they keep the emissions as low as possible. I once worked on a hybrid project with Hawaiian Electric. Not what you talk about idling. We did a lift truck, SBIR with HECO and US Hybrid. And we won the phase one, which means the design phase. And we actually won a phase two, but which was a million dollars, but DOE reneged on the one million dollars. But the point is, is that we were able to show that a fuel cell operating on, you know, on hydrogen for actually operating the lift part, because what happens is these trucks go in park and then they idle away, making noise and giving off fumes because they have to keep that lift truck going up and down. And it worked out really well that operating the lift truck component was really efficient and met a lot of those kinds of requirements. So I'd love to be able to re-resurrect that project sometime. Maybe I'll go to Aki. Talk to Aki. She's looking. She's open to any adventures. I just want to finish this thought off. US Hybrid actually bought a lift truck and it's sitting up at Kenea Village right now in anticipation of getting the phase two award. So we should have a look at that. I'll go and talk to Aki. I love when deals are made on ThinkTech. So let's talk about the larger picture in our remaining time here. The larger picture, of course, is the consumers, the ordinary people who drive on the street. You know, right now you have a very odd situation. The city hasn't fixed the potholes. So if you drive out there, should you dare, there's plenty of potholes. We never really fixed that. It's really tragic. And it's not likely to happen anytime soon given, you know, the city's finances. The same time, you know, I watch television and I see a million ads for new cars, which tells me they're not selling any. They're spending all the money on ads, so they're not selling any car. So everybody wants to sell a car. I do not see, honestly, you guys, I do not see a lot of ads for electric cars or hybrids for that matter. All the ads you see on television are for, you know, classic gasoline cars. And we've got to move off that. Peter, you mentioned, you know, there's 12,000 cars, electric cars in the state, out of roughly a million cars. Maybe I'm short on that. He has more than that now. And I say to myself, that's not fast enough. We've been, you know, having this conversation for 10 or 15 years, and the state credit went away. And I think the federal credit went away or it was going away. And what's out there to encourage people? This is not a great time, you know, to get Joe Public to buy an electric car or, for that matter, any car. And so the question is, you know, to me, it seems an appropriate target of 2035. If one electric can do this by 2035, so can we all. The only question is, you know, what does the government do? What does individuals do? What does state tech do? What do you guys do in order to, you know, move the needle ahead and have people buy these cars? Because at the end of the day, it's good for us. At the end of the day, you know, having this technology is going to, you know, reimagine our transportation, hopefully in a good direction. And so I ask you, what would be, what is the plan? How can one electric help on that plan? You said you were, you know, making these charging stations available and so forth, and that you were, you know, we're going to install up to 25 of them. What else can we do to get people to buy electric cars and follow your target? Well, we're first of all trying to lead by example, and that's what we've been talking about. We certainly advocate whenever we have the opportunity to get the legislature to, you know, extend and to increase the incentives. I think the people who say the incentives are no longer needed are, you know, just wrong. I think we are obviously moving in the right direction, but as you say, we're moving painfully slowly and the COVID pandemic has slowed us down even further. So I think we have to really push our government to, you know, reinstate the some of the incentives that have been taken away and put some money into, you know, incentives and tax breaks and so forth for people to keep moving in the right direction. It's easy to say that when you're not trying to balance the budget, but that's still, it's got to be a priority among many other priorities to keep this moving and to try to speed it up. Let's hope that after November or so, some of the attitudes in the federal government will change and we will not see somebody that's pushing for coal for God's sakes. We, or gasoline, will see somebody that's pushing for renewable energy and for electric vehicles and for hydrogen and a lot of other things that we need. If we're going to deal with global climate change, which we kind of forgotten about or not forgotten, but it's faded in the pandemic. So yeah, individuals have to act, but the government has to lead and organizations like Hawaiian Electric have to lead. And that's what we're trying to do as best we can. Yeah, you know that you talk about leadership, I think it's a very salient point that Hawaiian Electric does this. That's clearly a statement of leadership. And every time one of your electric cars rolls down the street, you're saying something to everybody who sees it. I would like to see other significant capital concentrations in the state do exactly the same thing. To the extent they have fleets, they don't make those fleets into electric car fleets. The university, for example, has a lot of cars. I think they do. The state government has a ton of cars all over the place. There's no reason why they can't make the same move. And in fact, it's not that painful if you just go by attrition, you know, when the gas car gets old and replace it with electric car. So I think we need to have some policy on that. Even in the time of COVID, we still have to get around. And we have to, you know, the thing about leadership is that everybody who buys an electric car, or for that matter, a hydrogen car, is a leader. Because as he rolls down the street, people see that. I'm always impressed when I see somebody driving an electric car. It's good that person is out in front. That person speaks for all of us. That person wants Hawaii to be a better place. It's not just a personal discretion issue. He's actually saying something to all of us. And the other is what we hope by doing this is that if there are fleet managers, fleet owners who are thinking about it at all, we want to be here. We are here to help you to give, excuse me, give you some advice to tell you about our own experience. Excuse me, tell you about our own experience to tell you, you know, what we've determined you need if you're going to do this. So that's the other part of this commitment. It's not just to drive the drive and not just to talk the talk, but to be here as your trusted advisor and as your, you know, your advisor on energy matters. And we are more than happy if you want to, if you want a fast charger at your shopping center, if you want to add electric vehicles to your fleet, if you want to convert your buses to electric, we are here exactly to help you do that. And we don't sell electric vehicles. We don't sell charging equipment. So we don't care which kind you get or what you buy. We're here to help you get what works for you. And that's part of what this show of, you know, commitment is all about. Yeah. And as you turn more of your fleet into electric, you become all the more expert on your staff, your maintenance, your, you know, people driving, all become more experts. So Mitch, we're at that point, you know, in the show where the hot light, the stage lights fall on you to try to summarize what we have discussed here. And of course, to thank Peter for coming around. Go. Well, first of all, before I forget, thank you very much, Peter. There's been a lot of stuff I certainly didn't know about. It was really good to get refreshed and all the things you guys are doing. And I think the big takeaway is for me anyway, is that Hawaiian Electric is leading from the front, putting where their money, where their mouth is, and being really helpful and making it an easy transition for people to convert over to electric vehicles. And so thank you very much. And let's keep it moving. All right. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Mitch. Aloha, you guys. Stay safe.