 Council and the special this special meeting is tonight on November 22nd as is customary our city clerk will read us the quote of the evening thank you mayor you cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today and Sue picked out that quote for the evening that's a good one thank you sue roll call please born here bulk excused Bowers yeah Decker excused Hammond here Hanna here Higamon here Kat here Kittleson here Montemayor here Rindfleisch here Raceler here Samson here Vanderweel there versey excused and Wongamon here 13 we have a quorum now Alderman Hammond will please lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you Don we have a public air hearing this evening pursuant to a notice published by the finance director treasurer this is a continuation of the hearing on the proposed budget for you during the year 2011 all taxpayers and residents of the governmental unit will have the opportunity to be heard on the proposed budget the original budget hearing was on November 15th we had some people that were unable to attend that said they would like to speak so this is a continuation of that hearing we do have a sign-up sheet and our city clerk will take it over from here all right what I'm going to do this evening is I'm going to call up the first five on the list and if the first person to go to the mic and the other four could be in the hallway here so we can just move them a little bit quicker rather than you all climbing over each other okay so first on the list is Marge Segali Marge if you could come up to the mic and just hold on for a second then can I get Kenneth Ristow Ben is it Colza Colga I'm sorry Ben and Janet Ross and Andrew Haney if you could all come up here and just kind of be on the side that would be terrific before we begin off March Alderman Boren I believe was to say something thank you mayor Sue I would like to have the addresses of the people that are appearing so I know that whether the Maya constituents or not you want me to read them well when they come up if they can give their address because I'd like to know if my constituents are here sure that's thank you all right first on the list will be Marge Segali and Marge could you give us your home address please forty six zero five a Amanda Lane Sheboygan Wisconsin thank you I am Marge Segali and I serve on the meat public library board of trustees I am here tonight to speak in reference to the misconception of the two thousand eight hundred and forty five dollars that people feel we need to make up for the maintenance of effort it is three hundred thousand plus the two thousand eight hundred and forty five dollars also there is concern that if we do not receive the monies to meet the maintenance of effort Eastern Shore library system will expel the meat public library for 2011 please let me state that meat library is the biggest contributor and the central focal point of the system they would be cutting off their noses despite their faces if they should decide to expel us our library pays more in salaries than materials and maintenance and that is what concerns me I commend the people who spoke at the last meeting but we all need to remember there are thousands of taxpayers who do not use the services of the library but are still paying for them through their taxes our library directors annual salary is a hundred and five thousand plus thirty five thousand with benefits we now have a business manager who has been promoted to a deputy director with an increase of five thousand dollars to go with the title please let me state there were three no votes and one who abstained but it's still past there is a document that is to be introduced to the council concerning the reserve funds the city might be able to use to help the library maybe the library should help council and the taxpayers and look at their own reserve funds to see where we could help in closing I would like to wish everybody a very happy and blessed Thanksgiving and I wish the mayor and the council the best of luck in passing the budget in these bad times thank you thank you thank you March next all right Kenneth Risto please you could pull the mic up so that everyone can hear you and you will have I need your address please one zero zero nine summer drive and I am one of your constituents thank you thank you good evening I'm Ken Risto I'm a teacher at South High School and because of the three minute rule you will not get the 30-minute lecture on the importance of democracy and libraries and the quiz that follows from that I spent a lot of time thinking about what I'm going to say to you especially with three minutes and I was going to give a spirited defense of libraries and the importance of them and funding them and I know everybody else is going to do that and oddly what kept coming back to me is words from my grandma Risto and in full disclosure she was an alderman actually she was a sorry a wangeman and so I distant cousin here and I I thank you for the support of libraries in the last meeting grandma used to say when she saw something really disturbing it to me when I was a young man young kid you know Ken what is this world coming to and that's what I kept thinking about all this weekend as I thought about what to say to all of you tonight what is this world coming to when we know that usage of the libraries increasing that in every measurement that we have we know that they're using it more and more despite the fact that libraries like all public services have been cut staff has been reduced there's been furloughs and all sorts of sacrifices been made in terms of service what is this world coming to when we have a community struggling with unemployment and people are trying to stretch their budgets and trying to find ways to freely inform themselves and entertain their kids and we have a budget that continues to cut those various services that help people actually keep some dignity and also allow them to continue to have a decent lifestyle and one of the worlds is coming to when after last week session which I didn't have a pleasure to attend but people like me and others came up here and talked eloquently about the importance of libraries a budget came out less than 48 hours later which restored spending to every department but the library what is this world coming to the library is not a luxury it's as important to all of us as parks and as clean streets and as safe homes and fire protection it's a source of economic development it's a source of our livelihood please don't make me quote make you quote Benjamin Franklin to you I would strongly urge the council and the mayor to not underestimate the strength and depth of support and love that this community 75% which have a library card really care about I'm reminded of the fact that several years ago when we under estimate really underestimated the love of Sheridan Park 30 seconds the Sheridan Park we found that the community really cared much more about those parks than we thought so I really urge you to consider finding some way in some fashion to fund this library to keep them in eastern shores thank you thank you next week and next to be Ben Ben pronounced your last name for me again cold cup KOL K and Ben can I have your home address please 2215 North 30th Street thank you mayor common council I appreciate the time given to speak today and I'm here to bring up another view of the library funding situation there have been a lot of people coming up to speak on the negatives of cutting funding from the library the very little talk of the benefits or the relatively small impact it would have we have a two-year university in our city the University of Sheboygan has an interlibrary loan program with the other two-year state Wisconsin state colleges for a total of 13 libraries participating this along with the article database is available to anyone who is a citizen of Sheboygan for younger students and other citizens of Sheboygan we have 10 public elementary school libraries three public middle school libraries as well as the two large public high school libraries all of which have public funding to get new materials from this along with me public library as it stands now provides an imposing collection of books spread across all age groups and provides a variety of ways to gain information for any type of research you are doing I would propose passing the $300,000 cut as well as working with the school board to try to get more books in the hands of students while in school meet public library provides a great service to Sheboygan however hard times call for hard decisions the $300,000 should be used to help create TIF zones to spur local business or to help provide venture capital for small local businesses adding to the existing funding to maintain Eastern shores library system membership would be an active irresponsibility of our city government which already spends $2.65 million out of a $35 million budget it's about a tenth of the city's total budget just for the library that is a huge amount of money the unemployed workers of Sheboygan need action and this cut is a first step thank you thank you Ben thank you Ben next next to be Janet Ross Janet you may have to adjust the mic for your and Janet can I have your home address please four four five two two one your address I gave I don't know but the Alderman wish oh excuse me 205 Euclid Avenue thanks and you'll have three minutes I appreciate many of the eloquent words on behalf of the library and I agree with them very much I'm just going to speak about two very personal things one being that I've been involved with the Literacy Council over the years partners in reading and also adult tutoring at the moment I have a student adult who is shooting for citizenship I have curriculum for these activities but I make use of the library to bring in extra stuff like level to reading books for to fill out the statistics that he has to learn to become a citizen to learn the story behind the statistic and to in the in the process enlarge his reading ability his pronunciation ability and things of that nature that's what I've been doing spending a lot of time in the children's library digging up stuff to do that so that is one of my big interests the Literacy Council and reading in general my second issue is very personal I've been involved for over the years with the reading groups that take book groups that take place at the library they're not enormous maybe a dozen people who meet several a couple of times in the spring couple of times in the fall but however without the Eastern Shore Service we could not probably would not be able to do that so that everybody has the same book to read and I'm really I have to say I'm very selfless selfishly concerned about that thank you Janet thank you Janet next all right Andrew either that or Andrew why don't you come on Jim Andrew can't vote for you do you need his address and I am fourth grade at Sheridan you will learn the library because the money you want to spend will budget the library education for teachers kids and adults and we go with first graders to the library every month because we read together thank you Andrew okay first on the list is Isaiah and I'm eight years old and I go to Sheridan elementary and I love the library because it gives us it helps us it helps the kids what doesn't have to read and it gives us it helps it helps the community and and it gives people out education and it helps other people thanks Isaiah I'm Dylan Coltrane I go to Sheridan school I like all the books at library I like some of the movies I go to the library every week with my brother and the library is really fun thank you Dylan and Savannah Ramos and I go to Sheridan school I think we should keep the library open I go once a month with my first grader buddy we go to a great library room we always hear stories in there and then we check out books together thank you Savannah from Sheridan school kids need books for their education and our teacher Miss Juergens takes us every month adults need books for college and high school thank you Alonzo is that all for our students I know this isn't a sporting event but let's hear it for the kids and we've got more we'll hear it for them later or do you want me to do the kids first okay let's see if I've got all the kids can I get up here Jeremiah and Sharon is not a kid so we're just gonna have you wait I'm Jeremiah from Sheridan school I want to help save the library because our teacher Miss Juergens takes us every week I love that all the books are awesome thanks Jeremiah Austin I'm Austin and I go to Sheridan and we love the books and DVDs we want our library we go every week James is a big kid but I'm gonna time you though James I do vote okay James can I have your address please 1312 Pennsylvania Avenue all right and you will have three minutes okay I don't know much about anything right now I got wrangled in by these two little ones right here from Sheridan school but the thing it well you did but you did but this library means the world to all the kids as you've all heard I mean it's the only place I can go right now for even looking for any employability I don't even have a library card but as long as I bring in my photo ID they give me a laptop for two hours put on any online applications that you can think of the jails like Sharon Abel over here she goes there all the time to help anybody there and with all respect I mean if we lose our budget with our library what's gonna happen with the next coming up elections in the future I mean kids have nowhere to read with their books they go every month I mean he takes I take him down there at least every day after school just so he can go up to the third floor they do a little thing to get books they get movies you can even learn your history right then and there I mean we always talk about our schools wanting our kids to do extracurricular what's the best extracurricular activity a library am I right or wrong thank you James all right kids I think you're all done all right can I get up here Nancy Lewis Sharon Abel will be after Nancy and Maeve Quinn will be after Sharon can you come up okay Nancy can I get your home address please 311 Michigan Avenue and you will have three minutes ma'am my husband my husband and I excuse me my husband and I and our six children moved to Sheboygan 39 years ago number one on our agenda was to enroll the children in school but a very close second was to go to the old Meade library on 7th street and get our library cards we also got to meet the resident library cat libraries are vital to their communities they are the most democratic with a small D of all institutions our library and it is ours the users is busy every single hour it is open moms and dads with small children coming to story our adults of every strike coming to research job opportunities and job skill training sites students after school doing homework in a stress-free atmosphere business people coming in on their lunch hour seniors browsing the collections libraries are storehouses of ideas waiting to be discovered developed and nurtured restore full funding to the maintenance of the effort level required to keep Meade library and Easter Shores library system thank you thank you Nancy thank you Nancy all right next we will have Sharon Sharon is it Abel or Abel Abel please and Sharon what is your home address please 311 Niagara Avenue okay go ahead you'll have three minutes well this is great the civic process in action there are people up and down the hall and down the stairs so all of you know our Meade public library is an equalizer it's welcoming atmosphere brings together populations from the widest array of socioeconomic levels cultures backgrounds races abilities ages and beliefs there is nothing else like it in the city of Sheboygan those of you who are with the council if you haven't been there within the last week to visit the library before you make any decisions go there on a morning and then go there on an afternoon and go there in an evening and look at the people on every floor just look people with no former ties to Sheboygan have told me that they bought homes in our neighborhood not only because of the nearby beach and boat landing but because they are within walking distance of the library our library Meade public library our librarians and the services they provide through Meade public library and its partnering agencies including but not limited to Eastern shores library system our pre-k through post-secondary education systems the state of Wisconsin federal programs and local non-profit organizations are key so again our librarians and the services they provide through Meade public library and its partnering agencies are key to the unity and positive growth of our community Sheboygan Wisconsin USA thank you sure thank you sure next is Maeve Quinn may have can we get your home address please sure 310 St. Clair Avenue and you will have three minutes thank you thank you Mary Ryan Alderman and citizens for this opportunity to speak with you tonight at the budget hearing my name is Maeve Quinn and I'm also the president of the board of trustees of Meade public library four words clearly summarize the mission of our wonderful library inform educate and lighten inspire I do not intend to speak tonight however in light of the statements in today's paper that Meade library has suffered no budget cuts over the years it is necessary for me to correct the record I would like to inform you of the following over the years library board of trustees and the staff have worked with a shrinking budget the big picture shows that from 1989 to 2010 there has been a 30% reduction in staff in 1989 there were 61.9 position and in 2010 there are 43.2 position this is a 30% decrease in 2003 there was a reduction of staff hours in 2006 there was a major reorganization following the retirement of 10 staff members in 2009 the star program and in 2010 each staff member has been furloughed for five days this unpaid leave is equivalent to a 1.9% decrease in pay it is crystal clear that the library has been adversely affected by city budget cuts over the years I would like to educate you about the impact of the proposed $300,000 cut to Meade public library this is an 11% reduction from this year's appropriation from the city the proposed $300,000 cut will result in reducing the number of staff members reducing library hours and reducing the number of new books and materials the $300,000 proposed cut will also put me public library at risk for losing the state funded services provided to the library as a member of eastern shores library system we risk losing approximately $250,000 in state taxes Meade public library would need a $2,845 increase to this year's library budget in order to maintain these services in other words the proposed 2011 city budget would need to add $300,000 $845 to the library even with this increase we would still need to reduce staff some sensible solutions for the city council to think about utilize some capital fund money or to use money from the city reserves this is a one-time solution for a challenging economic year and now to enlighten it is quite evident that during these challenging economic times citizens need Meade public library services more than ever thank you and to inspire Meade public library is one of the true gems of Sheboygan thanks to the involvement of thousands of citizens it truly is a wonderful community information and cultural center thank you thank you thank you me all right our next group could I have edwick house key up here please Jim Hollister Cindy Morgan wick Tim Van Akron and Joe Siegel and first speaking would be edwick house key and add can I get your home address please to 632 North 8th Street and I'm not here this evening to talk about the library okay I realized that you have a very difficult decision to make because there's only so much money they can go around so I want to take this opportunity first of all say thank you for allowing the citizens to talk to you about their concerns with about the new budget I put together 10 good moves to balance the budget and increase income to the city without reducing services and or increasing taxes you can read it at your leisure and I hope that you take these items to heart because it can save money for the budget can allow you to meet your obligations to each and every department within the city that needs the money I just want to say thank you again for allowing us to speak and I will applaud you when you indicate by your vote that you really have heard what the people have said to you regarding the needs of the city thank you very much it's probably the shortest speech I've ever made here all right next would be Jim Hollister Jim you might want to pull the mic up a little bit can I have your home address please I'm Jim Hollister I live at 2802 North 6th street thank you I just want to speak on the theme of great cities have great libraries I remember learning in high school and later in college of Alexandria in Egypt ancient Egypt had the best library in the in the in the known world a great culture is a literate culture and promotes the generous exchange of ideas as a child I remember wandering the stacks of the Groton public library in Connecticut where my mother years later would get her first job after raising us for kids as a librarian in college I went to Colgate University in upstate New York our library was named after one of the presidents of the college Everett Needham case and we quickly came up with the pun that the books were there in case we ever it need them we did have some cynical ideas about books in those days but since my college days I've grown to appreciate that in New York City in the early 80s which I was told recently was one of the worst times in my life for job hunting I used the public library reading room at 42nd Street and Fifth Avenue in New York City that helped me with the research I did get my first job in the publishing business later I lived in Boston and worshipped in a church right across the street from the Boston Public Library a great library in Copley Square in downtown Boston when I went to seminary to become a pastor I went to Union Theological Seminary in New York which had the largest theological library in the Western Hemisphere it was one reason that I went there and if that wasn't enough we were adjacent to Columbia University one of the Ivy League schools that had a nine or ten story library most of which was below ground and it gave kind of a metaphor for me about depth and what books and learning can be about when I came to Sheboygan in the early actually the mid 90s I was impressed in the job hunting when I came and interviewed with a church that it was one of the 50 best libraries in the United States that was certainly a selling point for somebody coming from the east looking for a place to start out as newlywed married couple to raise our future hopeful future children today I was at the library with my two kids it was not because of this meeting but my son has a research paper on foxes and he needed to get work done before Wednesday so we went for him my daughter loves to read and I bought some got picked up some woodworking magazines for a future winter project so I would just close by saying that great cities have great libraries please preserve this treasure that serves the common good our good thank you Jim next will be Cindy Morganwick Cindy you may want to pull that down a little bit and can I have your home address Cindy 1953 North 6th Street and you will have three minutes okay I am deeply disappointed and frankly rather appalled that I and so many others have come here tonight to this meeting to remind all of you of the importance of the Meade Public Library it is vital that you fund it properly so that it can remain in its rightful place as a focal point for this community if you fail to fund the library with maintenance of effort you demonstrate disrespect for our seniors who have made this community what it is today these seniors use the library to research their current interests read books they can ill afford to buy and gather community events that are sponsored by the Meade Public Library if you fail to fund the library with maintenance of effort you demonstrate disrespect for our current workers the workers have used this library to find their jobs and now use the library to enhance their skill set to enable their companies to remain competitive if you fail to fund the library with maintenance of effort you demonstrate disrespect for potential new businesses these businesses are interested in a high quality workforce which is found in a community that is committed to the support services needed to nurture such a workforce finally if you fail to fund the library with maintenance of effort you demonstrate disrespect for the next generation of Sheboyganites our children these citizens of tomorrow use the Meade Public Library to learn about themselves their community and their place in the world Meade Public Library is vital to Sheboygan if you fail to fund it you are fragmenting the fabric that makes Sheboygan such a fantastic place to work thank you thank you Cindy thank you and did I say Tim I meant Jim read it wrong I just made you an official person Jim what is your home address please I live at 432 Lincoln Avenue I'm a lifetime Shboygan resident and a lifetime library user I wish to comment on the economic advantages to restoring funding for the library for Shboygan to recover from the economic ills that have fallen upon it job creation is absolutely necessary if we don't create jobs Sheboygan becomes a dying community and how are jobs created through new businesses coming to Sheboygan through the creation of new businesses by the citizens of Sheboygan and through the expansion of our present businesses what attracts new businesses to Sheboygan there are many factors but one is the education and skill level of our citizens another is the amenities such as our library that we offer to make Sheboygan a community someone would like to move to how do the present citizens of Sheboygan create new businesses through the creative process that comes from the exposure to new ideas why would an existing business plan to expand its workforce in Sheboygan if there is a skilled and creative workforce available to fill the new jobs they will expand how does the library contribute to job creation the knowledge and information available through the library along with other educational institutions in the community help develop the creative workforce this community needs in the global marketplace we can no longer compete based purely on physical labor employees in other countries do the physical work or work cheaper we need an educated creative citizenry who can do the work better and create new products this requires innovation and creativity which comes about from the exposure to ideas the ideas found in a library whether it's how to start a business or identifying career paths or even learning about different cultures with an eye to expand your export market or perhaps providing a creative spark through the written word the library has it all many people came here tonight to our library supporters with books I just happened to pick up this pamphlet at the library the other day looking to get ahead in the job market learn the skills you need to give you a leg up over the competition this free online database can be accessed through the library's homepage or at learningexpresslibrary.com use of this resource requires a library card from a public library in Sheboygan or Ozaki County and registration at the Learning Express website now is not the time to take the short view now is a time to show leadership to neglect this economic engine within our community jeopardizes our long-term economic viability please fully fund the library thank you thank you Jim thank you Jim next would be Joe Segel Joe can I have your home address 1522 Alabama Avenue Mr. Mayor ladies and gentlemen I hear budget budget budget I come here quite often and I think the fairness should be from the top down and why there's all the automatic raises all the time that's robbing us our budget I think it should be looked into a little better and it should be fairer for everybody not just from the bottom from the top down thank you thank you Joe thank you Joe all right next group is Mary Diamond if you could all come forward Wade Botsford Kathy Norman Laura Clam and Logan Beenan and first would be Mary Diamond Mary can we have you might want to put the microphone up just a little bit Mary can we have your home address please 2027 North 9th Street and you will have three minutes thank you it is kind of nervous up here my name is Mary Diamond and I'm a teacher in the Sheboygan area school district raised in Sheboygan to be passionate about books partially because of my parents but mostly because of the Meade public library I grew up in a town that treasured books so much we built a beautiful library and even gave it a wonderful fountain that I spent many a summer day dangling my feet in it like the early learning center should be protected from cuts like these because it's a treasure I don't know that you fully realize the economic power of that treasure the emotional power of that treasure and as a teacher I really want to remind you of the academic power of that treasure children with nothing and right now in these economic times we have a lot more children with nothing than we ever did those children can go to the library and read I hope you know how powerful that is the ability to read regardless of how much money you make what color your skin is how weird you choose to look you can go to the library and read we shouldn't be cutting this treasure we should be protecting it tough economic times call for tough decisions but they also call for creativity let's get creative put our heads together and get creative hold a bake sale go green hell if it'll save my library I'll sit in a dunk tank but something to save our library thank you thank you Mary thank you Mary Wade Wade Botsford and your 2904 Weedemire Street thank you and you will have three minutes okay the first thing one of the first things that I did when I moved here from New York was to sign up for a library card to get a library card and I'm really glad I did I think that that meet is is is a true jewel I tell other people in other states about it I got an email from a friend of mine in Virginia the other night we I had sent him meets home page and I'm and I was asking him about what he reads and what he gets and where's he get it and he didn't seem to know I get stuff from all over the place all over this state other states colleges universities other cities I've gotten hundreds of books from through Wizcat and it's easy I can do it on the computer I don't even have to leave my home I don't have to spend a lot of time at it I just wanted to say that I think that me provides a necessary service a great service that's available to everyone in the in the in our city without regard to socioeconomic status 75% of the population of Sheboygan has a library card I think that's huge all you have to do is go to the parking lot on a Saturday or Sunday or sometime when you're when you're free you don't even have to go inside which is better but the parking lot is always full people are using it somebody said that great cities have great libraries this one is this one is terrific I'd hate to see it cut off at the knees thank you thank you Wade thank you Wade Kathy Norman Kathy can I have your home address please sure 32 17 North 6th and you will have three minutes okay I obviously you all know how important the library is you've been hearing it all night I wanted to speak a little bit about the process I've been watching this closely because Meade Public Library is probably my most favorite thing in the Sheboygan area always has been and it seemed like all along the way everything was gonna have to take sort of an even hit because it is a tough time and I feel awful for all you older persons having to figure out how to pass this budget but then I left town for a week and I came back and it was very odd that suddenly everything was restored except the library and in fact when I tried to go through the papers as to what happened in the last week it was wasn't even discussed it was almost as if Meade Public Library was an afterthought or it was a non-entity and I can tell you from having stood out in front of the library a few times in the last couple weeks on behalf of this group that's very very concerned about the library I'm more convinced than ever how importantly this community feels about it I just could not even believe the testimonies that I received from people walking in about how it was the center of their existence it was their lifeline and so I'm more passionate than ever that the city needs to do something to make sure this treasure doesn't get cut even if it means using the reserve fund I assume that's what a reserve fund is for is emergencies but I guess I'm sort of confounded as to why everything would be suddenly saved in the city except for the library so I would urge the city council to do what it takes whether it's proportionate cuts whether it's you know using the reserve fund but find a way to save the library's funding thank you thank you Kathy next would be Laura Clem Laura can you give us your home address please for North Point Drive and you'll have three minutes okay thanks I don't need that much time okay I just wanted I'm not a lifelong Shaboygan resident I moved here in the year 2000 and one of the first things I did when I moved here was find me library and I was very pleased to see what a great library it was I've lived in communities without great libraries my son who is now six years old we go at least once a week he's been participating in the summer reading program since he was four and I just wanted for people who don't know I mean he's the kindergarten grant this year he gets 15 minutes in the school library and he gets to take out one library book a week we easily we can read one library book in 15 minutes so we really need the library thanks thanks Laura thank you Laura and Logan Beenan Logan you may want to pull the mic up a little bit and can we have your home address please I live at 1817 South 15th Street here in Shaboygan and you'll have three minutes sir thank you thanks to the council and the mayor for giving me this chance I commend the council for the energy and the time they give to the city I honor that commitment and I'm particularly pleased because my sixth district Alderman Bill Wangeman is here and we've talked about this before and I've phoned him and other older people I was born in Shaboygan here 1933 I only say that because maybe it gives me little seniority and I taught at South High School for almost 30 years an English teacher but my story is not to say anything that's been said this evening so well so often I think you get the point that the library is a wonderful gem something not to be let tarnish my story is about a little girl that cried the little girl is my daughter Emily she's a teacher at Albuquerque now in the first Native American school in Albuquerque and when she was nine years old we went to the library with Emily and several other children of mine and she came out with 18 books 18 and the librarian said you can only take out 12 and she began to cry and where does that story lead well it's been said so often tonight you go to the library in the morning in the afternoon in the evening it's a crossroads of Shaboygan and they're a young and old there it's a very democratic deserving institution so I ask the council among the number are I believe some of my former students to please fund the library and keep that that that wonderful gem of Shaboygan is well polished thanks for the time thank you Logan thank you Logan and my former teacher all right next group we have Michelle Miller Chris Reignitz Claire Andresen Patricia Denolfo and Elizabeth Hoffman could we have Michelle up first Michelle can you give us your home address please yes I'm at 711 Huron Avenue and you will have three minutes okay I'm here I'm another supporter of the library and I just wanted to make an observation I was at the meeting last week and I heard 16 different library users young and old all get up here and we all know that public speaking is the number one fear in people and yet 16 people last week and I don't know how many almost that many if not more this week are willing to take on that fear just to show support for the library and just what an awesome community of people we have that love to learn and love to read and love books and we should all be really ecstatic that we live in a community with that kind of passion for learning and I I think that we should be celebrating that and continuing the support for the library thank you thank you Michelle thank you Michelle Chris Chris can we get your home address please 525 Pennsylvania and you will have three minutes ma'am I just want to tell you my history I have my great-grandfather George Heller was one of the founders of the library and I'm very proud of that issue I also believe that the library is very important to this community I've had the opportunity to bring people from the State Department from foreign countries in there and they say what's in the water here why are people using this facility so profoundly they come in at night and they see a pack with people the how another thing a vignette historical vignette I take it with they had a personnel for the city of Sheboygan Peter Young said to me you know there's nothing more sacredness community than library you just can't touch it and he and he said I don't understand that I grew up in this town but I still don't understand the sacredness of the library and I guess I I want you to preserve that sacredness and you know I personally would you know the fire department is a an issue that we've all been finding I'd give up my fire station for the library so I mean I I feel that profoundly and I also feel that maybe I shouldn't speak for myself but I should speak for the people that have the less hormone money in this community I have the opportunity my parents gave me for a great education but the people that have no money have a starter they have an equal opportunities opportunity to go from where they are to a full employment and full fulfillment of their talents and I want I want you not to take that tool away from them thank you very much thanks Chris thanks Chris next would be Claire Andreessen I got that right cuz your parents were here last week and they corrected me Claire can you give us your home address please 313 Michigan Avenue and you will have three minutes I am not very prepared for the speech I did not know I was coming and tell about five minutes before we left didn't even actually know it that there was a meeting but when I heard I knew I had to be here because the library is very important to me I'm 13 years old and I don't I've been reading for a long time I don't even remember how young I was when I first got my library card must have been like first grade kindergarten when I first got my library card and some of my fondest memories are of being curled up in one of the blue chairs at the library having my parents read to me or reading the books choosing the books there and having fun at the library and even now the library you still need it now that I'm 13 I still need it to find things when I'm doing research for papers and when I because our school library doesn't always have all of the books that we need to do the reports and thank you thank you Claire Patricia Patricia can you give us your home address please as I can 2329 North 3rd and you'll have three minutes thank you very much good evening mr. Mayor council members and citizens I'm here tonight as a teacher of English language learners at urban middle school and I come tonight to be the voice for the immigrant children here in Sheboygan who are learning English as a second language almost every time I go to meet public library I see my students there and they come rushing up to me with a big smile because they ask me can I get extra credit for being caught at the library I don't need to give them extra credit they're earning their own extra credit at the library and I'm so proud to see them there and so happy that these children who may not have the means at home to have a computer and that's online with internet services they don't have books they come from families where reading is not a priority and they have this wonderful welcoming happy place to go and they might even be spotted by their teacher there so I urge you with all my heart that you will please consider these children they who are our future all the children of Sheboygan but especially remember the English language learners tonight as you make this decision with the about the library's future and on a personal note I just want to tell you that my little grandson Andrew has been up to the third floor and thoroughly critiqued the truck section of the children's library and he finds it to be excellent so thank you all very much thank you Patricia thank you Patricia and the last on our list is Elizabeth Elizabeth Hoffman Elizabeth you may want to pull the mic a little bit can you give us your home address 4709 Douglas for Lane I'm in the town so I'm not under you guys well you still have three minutes yeah thank you good evening my my life has been touched or blessed twice by adoption my children are both from Russia and my husband and I use the library to research adoption to research parenting to research Russia and if the library wouldn't have been there I don't know what we would have done we learned about Russia as a country we learned about parenting and that helped us make our journey to Russia twice to make to build our family and now my daughter who's eight likes to go to the library to research her homeland and to find out about where she was born and when you adopt you kind of stay home you bond with your child and the library was the first place that we really ventured out as a family and it was a safe place and it's still a place that my children feel at home when I was coming here tonight my daughter asked me why are you going to this meeting and I said well I really want to save the library and she said well who doesn't like the library and I said well it has to do with money and she said really don't they like reading so don't they like reading so please for the children of this city in the town please support the library and it's in continuation so my daughter can learn more about our home man thank you thank you Elizabeth thank you Elizabeth all do we have a motion President Kittleson close close the public hearing second we have a motion and a second to close the public hearing any discussion if there is none all in favor say aye aye opposed the hearing is closed thank you everybody for speaking this evening get away with that now yeah we will recess for five minutes okay welcome back everybody hearing on we are looking at resolutions introduced three sp1-1 resolution authorizing the appropriate city officials to execute a shared savings agreement with Wisconsin power and light relating to the financing of the purchase and installation of two 200 kilowatt capstone micro turbines for the wastewater treatment plant that will be referred to finance sp1-2 a resolution authorized settlement of claim number 42-09 of Charnet L. Boyd and Sarah Patton mother of Charnet L. Boyd in the total amount of four thousand two hundred and fifty dollars all the person got thank you Mary Ryan I move to suspend the rules second we have a motion to suspend in a second any discussion on suspension of the rules or any explanations needed I understand this is a claim that has been out there for some time and they want to get it settled that you there anybody opposed to the rules being suspended there are not the rules are suspended please continue thank you I move that the resolution we put upon it second we have a motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion there is no discussion roll call please born I powers I Hammond upstain Hannah I item in I cut I Kittleson I Montemay or I win place racelor I Samson I van der wheel I and one come in I 12 eyes one abstention motion carries matters laid over we have 15 16 19 50 51 52 and 16 23 16 23 and 24 regarding the budget correct and 15 39 40 and 41 president Kittleson thank you mayor regarding these budget documents I would ask for a motion to accept and file all our owns accept and adopt all our seas and pass the one resolution namely 16-24 second we have a motion and a second under discussion regarding budget documents under discussion we have a motion and a second to pass mayor would you run those numbers by me again documents of the document numbers we have 15 16 15 19 15 50 15 51 15 52 16 23 16 24 and 15 39 15 40 and 15 41 thank you we can do a roll call doing all of them yes okay if there is no disc all the person thank you my question is on 15 40 and 41 that stated November 1st but something came to life last week is that this is voting on the budget documents the actual budget itself will be discussed on resolutions 1532 and 1533 coming up Alderman got these are more housekeeping all of the standing committees right reporting out filing 40 and 41 or just filing they're just it's just all housekeeping yep thank you okay let's do a roll call okay if there is no further discussion roll call please and just so Alderman born knows I have a huge star next to your name so I don't forget you Bowers hi Hammond hi Hannah hi hi to men hi Katt Kittleson hi Montemay or hi Rindflash hi Racler hi Samson hi Vanderweal hi Longman hi and born hi 13 eyes motion carries okay then we have discussion and possible action on the 2011 budget documents there's a typo on here correct sir apparently yes they are 1532 and 1533 the document number but the resolution numbers are right the resolution numbers are correct we have resolution number 130-10-11 by Alder persons Hammond bulk boron Rindflash and Racler ordering the 2011 budget appropriations for the city of Sheboygan funds and then we have resolution numbered 129-10-11 by Alder persons Hammond bulk boron Rindflash and Racler ordering the 2011 budget appropriations and the 2010 tax levy for you stirring the calendar year 2011 under discussion Alderman Hammond oh no we have Alderman boron thank you there I am I need a clarification on the wording of the discussion and possible action on the 2011 budget documents I take it that this is this only going to be discussion tonight and we're not going to be moving to pass the budget tonight is that correct we will not move to pass the budget this evening in order to get feedback on tonight's discussion I believe that this evening we should have discussion we can make amendments seeing as our next council meeting can that be until Wednesday which happens to be Thanksgiving Eve I would hope to iron out all discussion on this this evening if it takes us until tomorrow morning so that we're not here until Thanksgiving morning on Wednesday so we are not going to actually take a vote on it on the on the final budget however I would anticipate that we will have amendments this evening and that we could vote on those amendments but the final vote on the budget will not be taken until Wednesday that way if there's anybody that has changed their mind would do any amendments they can be done on Wednesday does that make sense that's what it is so you clarify mayor in order to get the in order to make an amendment the motion or the resolution needs to be on the floor so somebody you need a motion and a second to put it on for passage but my understanding from the council's action at the previous meeting that you agreed you would not take final action on the budget until no earlier than next Wednesday so this Wednesday this one's it two days from today which technically would be the next one president kindles I just I want to just clarify that the action is that we transfer it to Wednesday night council meeting correct well the idea is to iron out everything this evening make amendments this evening and go in Wednesday with a with a document to vote on that gives people 48 hours to change their mind if they would so like I don't know how many fans they'll have on Wednesday if they do but that gives everybody 48 hours do we have a alderman vice president we're in flesh thank you mr. Mayor so we can take action or at least start being discussion on there I will make the motion to pass both resolutions 130-10-11 and 129-10-11 this evening if that's seconded I will also announce the committee that I'll ask to hold it for later on for discussion or final vote then on Wednesday for the sake of the elder person's concern that we can't pass it today but make the motion so we can at least bring it to discussion very good we have that motion in a second we are under discussion Alderman Hammond supposed to be blinking I don't know if it is on your screen no it's not blinking on mine you can try again oh yeah it is all right thank you very much for those that were at the committee the whole meeting we introduced a this is for the general fund at this point not the library but the general fund we introduced a plan and I guess my motion would be to approve the plan as or approve the amendments as presented for the 2010 general budget second fund budget we have a motion in a second on the proposed revisions to the 2011 general fund budget under discussion we have Alderman person Alderman raceler thank you mr. mayor I think for clarification for a month for several us could you just go through the document and explain it a little bit so we know exactly what's being saved what's being cut and where the money stuff comes from Alderman Hammond please absolutely the start off from the the top under the administration nothing new will be added to that area under the police department there was a forty four hundred forty one thousand proposed reduction we are going to only reduced by hundred ninety eight thousand and so there would be excuse me two hundred and thirteen thousand dollar addition to their budget or back to their budget I should say it's not all of them and Hammond if I can explain something to everybody here in the in the first column is the original proposed reductions the second column is the revised reductions so if you look under administration administration is we're eliminating two positions for two hundred and two thousand dollars police we're eliminating we're not eliminating any positions no positions but there is a hundred ninety eight thousand dollars in revised reductions on there for the police department if you can I just want everybody to know that what the columns mean here fire department again as the mayor explained as public works revised reductions of a hundred and seven thousand cemetery can self-explanatory in addition for the sporting county economic development corporation so the whole if you will that we're trying to fund is about a million eighteen under the additions if you will or how we're going to fill that gap two hundred thousand coming from keeping the rate the same as it was in 2010 434 comes from four full-time employees out of the public works department and they're a hundred thirty four thousand dollar increase to their medical a hundred thousand from contingency they have this is silly development manager it's actually the development director position that would be a hundred we would not fund that although it would stay in the table of organization for twenty thousand two thousand eleven but we would not fund that position 125,000 from the motor vehicle fund for the administration currently we do not charge or cost anything back to the city for the work that we do on behalf of the motor vehicle fund and in a capital park improvements of thirty five thousand to fill that gap of roughly a million eighteen so that would be again in the general fund how we'd be able to continue to fund the police the fire and not have any layoffs within DPW or any of those organizations thank you you're welcome thank you're Alderman Hammond you're welcome Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor I'm sorry just if I go through and total those numbers up I come up with a little bit less than the million eighteen am I missing anywhere I came up with nine oh two million eighteen if we add up those numbers with the revised deductions nothing being changed in some of them I only came up with nine hundred two thousand am I missing they're there they're there yeah all the all the two hundred two thousand from administration I'm sorry to go through but two hundred thirteen thousand now would be the number for the police oh oh which column you which are you well if you're saying the new revised deduction amount would be less one hundred ninety eight thousand dollars for the police so that means the new no actually that that is kind of confusing because what we have here Alderman Samson is I think the original proposed reductions one point seven million dollar deficit right I'm not mistaken you revised reductions of five hundred and sixteen thousand so does that math work out that way no that doesn't work either no are we keeping the two hundred forty six thousand for the cops grant and moving that all the over as a yeah that's still that still gives us more than the one point zero eight million one eight million I'm still a hundred thousand different Jim if I take take those four numbers two thirteen two seventy one four thirty four a hundred thousand what comes up to a million eighteen four hundred thirty four thousand I thought was a a new subtraction then off of the total that we started out with yeah well we started out with five hundred forty one thousand being cut in DPW right and we got that we revised that up a hundred and seven thousand so we came came up with four thirty four on there that they that they're coming up extra taking out that DPW is getting cut up four hundred thirty four thousand getting cut four hundred thirty four so so the public works no they're not getting cut four thirty four they're getting cut conceiving an extra four hundred thirty four thousand off of that so really they're they're only coming up with budget deficit there in that case is a hundred seven thousand so if I add if I if I add two hundred two thousand for administration that didn't change the police changed came down more of another hundred ninety thousand so their total then that that we need is two hundred thirteen thousand originally it was four forty one okay if we go if we go back to DPW okay we have a total of four thirty four in reductions being a hundred and thirty four thousand in the raise that they're giving up okay which is actually raised slash paying into their right health benefits in four full time equivalent positions that they are giving up in DPW at three hundred thousand dollars so instead of five hundred forty one thousand the deduction then would be four thirty four so that means the amount that we're looking short is a hundred seven thousand hundred and seven no they were they were initially five hundred forty one thousand short then they're considering they're giving back four hundred thirty four thousand of that right which means a new total was one oh seven press okay so if I add two oh two for the administration the two thirteen for police two seventy one for the fire public works now is one oh seven nine thousand for the cemetery and then the hundred thousand for SC EDC that gives me nine hundred two thousand not one not one million am I missing a line well if DPW is giving back so to speak four hundred thirty four thousand the amount that we're still short is a hundred seven thousand if we take Kevin don't don't the two oh two basically means that the mayor's original proposed budget that was the original shows that we're gonna cut two oh two out of the general administration the revised reduction just says it's still gonna stay at two oh two so that's a non-factor that line really shouldn't even have been in there okay I understand where the confusion might come but that's a non that's a non-factor okay so then I think I'm off right there then yeah that million that million eighteen thousand is strictly the last column added up there police department yeah Jim can we have you come up to the mic that we can hear you in the council chambers but the folks at home can't can't catch on to the confusion I think is on the police line in the four hundred forty one thousand dollars there's a hundred ninety eight thousand that Chris requested for three policemen that weren't funded in 2010 that were there in 2009 we didn't fund that but we reinstated the six patrolmen or the seven police officers that we put in the original budget to reduce the police department that was two hundred and forty three thousand and then the later development was we estimated there was a grant available for thirty thousand dollars to help fund that two forty three so I just put the net number two thirteen so when you do the math across the one ninety eight and a two thirteen don't add up to four forty one thirty thousand dollars short because of that grant that we realized this past week last week actually the three new patrol officers for the cops grant would be in the funding in the budget for 2011 the six firefighters would be in the budget representing the two hundred and seventy one thousand for 2011 public works originally submitted a reduction of five forty one which included a lot of non-people related costs some were for tipping some was for ice melting and stuff like that as well as some cutbacks on maintenance and some park rec type items the four hundred and thirty four thousand dollars represents the equivalent of four full-time people and a give back of the two thousand and eleven raises scheduled in January and June of two thousand and eleven as you can see on the bottom also we added the SEDC contribution of a hundred thousand dollars which is emitted from the eleven budget to balance this back to keep the rate the same on the city taxes of eight thirty six we'd get a levy increase of two hundred thousand dollars keeping the rate the same year over year but the current rate came in at eight twenty eight versus eight thirty six on the public workside they offset the additions by two people that their jobs weren't eliminated but they left their positions in November of this year and also two people that were retired one in January and one in beginning of March of two thousand and eleven in addition to those four bodies they gave up they also gave up their two thousand and eleven salary increase so that makes up the four hundred and thirty four thousand the contingency is the contingency we had in the budget on a thirty four million dollar budget we had a line item that we've historically had in the budget for contingencies something that may happen in this budget it was a hundred thousand dollars a hundred thousand dollars on thirty four million is a pretty small number so we might as well move it over to save save jobs and we did that with a hundred that was not from any reserve it was from a contingency we had built in the budget the city development job we have in the budget it was for directors position not a manager and managers position that's my bed that was a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars we pulled that out of the budget albeit we left at New York chart so that we could fill that position hopefully if there were monies available in 2012 in offsetting that with the help of se dc it helps support not having that position during the year motor vehicle fund of a hundred twenty five thousand dollars we do a lot of admin work whether it's in finance human resources general counsel for the fund and in the past we have not allocated costs to that so we allocated costs this year from the motor vehicle fund to help fund the general fund in Capitol Park improvements in the Capitol improvements plan we're doing a lot of work work on parks this year from the standpoint of there won't be any money available in the next year or two because of the road projects we have so we eliminated the thirty five thousand dollar line item for capital improvements other than buildings and that goes that million nineteen offsets the million eighteen we had on the top does anybody have any questions relating to that you may want to stay up there Jim we have Alderman born thank you mayor I had a discussion with you earlier today director of Mordio and that is what will be the discussion I had with you earlier today what what is the budget that were the budget deficit that we're rolling over for 2012 with this agreement here and I think your answer was about a million dollars and then I also questioned you about the fact that we not only have this million dollars but we also have to negotiate contracts next year we have to find out what what the increase in our health insurance is going to be for 2012 and we also have to find out what additional money is going to go into the Wisconsin retirement fund for 2012 and then the other big elephant in the room is what the state's going to do to us because of their three point three billion dollar deficit in their next budget for 2012 and 2013 so I guess my bottom line question is in addition to the million what would be our worst case scenario as you as you project for 2012 with all of the other factors that I mentioned and how would you go about making that whole less thank you you want me to answer that question hypothetically that million could be five million we don't know because it's a hypothetical question we don't know what's going to happen on the state level as far as Wisconsin retirement fund goes we don't know where our health insurance is going to go we've been taking steps to try to steer behavior on our health insurance and how often people are going for office visits etc and we will continue to do that on the other hand we don't know with the new administration in Madison what will happen with meet our laws we don't know what will happen with contributions to the retirement fund yeah it goes both ways right now if we were to do the budget for 2012 tomorrow under the rules we're operating in right now we have a million to a one point two million dollar deficit one thing that I can say and I've discussed this with yourself Alderman Boran and Alderman Hammond and several other other persons here is that as soon as this budget is done we're going to activate the strategic fiscal planning committee we're going to start street strategic fiscal planning committee consists of the five chairman of the standing committees in the city and we are going to begin reviewing with myself director of modio being the numbers man in the city and the five chairman of the standing committees every department in the city the way I see it we have six months to come up with a plan for 2012 before we go into contract negotiations in by the first of June and a May 1st of June but we need to look at every department we need to bring the department heads in to be part of the long-term plan in what direction we're going to head and we have to prioritize what we're all about you know what are we what are we going to what are what services are we going to provide what services are most important to us what services are not important not that important to us so that needs to be needs to be looked at you know it's it's I can say that you know structurally our deficit is probably a million plus in the hole for next year but it's a heck of a lot better than the state all the more thank you mayor if I could just follow up I appreciate very much the work that Alderman Hammond has done that you've done mayor mr. Amorio has done on this budget but I've got a I've got a real difficult time supporting this and we're going to be kicking over a million dollars down you know down the road for next year I think we just have to make the difficult decisions for 2011 and I just can't see starting out the next budget for 2012 already a million dollars in the hole when there are so many uncertainties yeah we can we can see what the what the make extending our hand to our labor partners you can see what that's gotten us the thank God the DPW department DPW union stand made some concessions and we got a what I consider a very token concessions from the fire department but other than that we've got nothing and I just think is wishful thinking that with going in with a million dollar hole for 2012 to think that we're going to solve the problems by trying to get union concessions I just think it's wishful thinking based on what they what our what our labor partners have done in the recent past thank you thank you Alderman born we have to remember that in 2010 going into 2011 we have no contracts up in 20 oh and going into 2011 all we had contracts we had agreements through 2011 to 2012 the concessions that we did get were done outside of the contracts we didn't reopen the contracts we did some some addendums to the contracts in 2012 all seven of our labor contracts are up which we will begin discussing discussing in the summer of 2011 they are all open contracts so I would hope that we would have a much more thorough discussion in the summer of 2011 than we did this time around President thank you Mayor wondering Jim the contingency 100,000 we took out a contingency correct do we know how much we have left there all we do is each year we budget a contingency just budget for a contingency and if we use it we use it for good reasons if we don't it goes back into the general fund okay and then the motor vehicles and that's not okay and the motor vehicle fund correct we took 125,000 I was trying to find do we know how much we have left there um we probably have about two million dollars in the two to two and a half million dollars of what I would call replacement for vehicles and trucks okay thank you thanks thank you President Kittleson Alderman Bowers yes thank you now Mr. Mediolets time we had the I discuss with you the contracted services in the insurance deductibles yes sir the $400,000 now that's a deductible for general liability I'll explain it oh okay okay contracted services first contracted services are for legal fees from time to time our city council engages outside council to help support any liability the city has currently our legal fees to date in 2010 we had a $40,000 budget and we're at $68,000 to date we'll probably spend some more through this year and we have some ongoing costs into next year from an insurance deductible standpoint that is a deductible that we have on our on our vehicles we have $100,000 per occurrence and our max aggregate liability is $400,000 and that's what we budget for the city we also have claims potentially charged to departments as revenue in this we don't budget tax dollars for this where the expenses normally get incurred are the general fund the sewage fund and the motor vehicle fund those are the three funds that own vehicles and use vehicles so they have the potential for the liability loss if we do have liability losses we charge those individual funds reserve balances for the expenses incurred so how much do we use up last year at the 400,000 I think Nancy how much was it 134 134 correct so couldn't we use that money that was left over in this year's budgets there isn't money left over comes out of reserve balances in those funds it's not money that's budgeted vis-a-vis taxes so that's been put back into the what general fund it's in the general fund and if we need it we take it out to offset the expenses that were incurred okay so that's been put back into this year nothing's been put back in we are we only used we only took out of the general fund the sewage fund and the motor vehicle fund $134,000 last year to fund deductibles okay this year we if we don't have any accidents in 2011 we won't take anything out of any funds if we do have accidents we'll take money out of those funds reserves that the accidents happened in so they're out of fund reserve balances they're not out of budget dollars if you will that's the way it's historically been budgeted so there's not $400,000 of money that we have that have been set aside through tax payments for 2011 that if we don't use we could fund something else that we could fund something else could not could not could not it has to be used strictly for insurance correct and it comes out of your year well comes out of fund reserve balances not out of the current year taxes that's the difference okay thank you all my powers vice president rent flesh thank you mr. Mayor I agree and I disagree with the comments regarding the million dollars being kicked on down the road from Alderman Bourne as we discussed you know budgets have since to have since to be tended to be on annual basis not a long-range plan and we had discussed with the strategic fiscal starting that long-range plan immediately in January so I can say that while we're looking at kicking a million dollars down the road that process and plan that since 2003 when I first elected has always been a year by your basis we're going to look at a long-term plan and I appreciate that thank you mr. Mayor the other thing is when you really look back at what we're adding back in that adds million dollars if you will down the road and the vast majority of it is police and if we decide we can decide not to do that we can decide to stick with the original budget what's the impact on the police are we protecting our citizens are we meeting their particular needs when they pay taxes they want to serve services for and public works and we all agree public works taking the hit and the biggest hit in the last few years of that you know are there creative ways to look at down the road yes but they're long-term solutions are not solutions that we can come up with immediately to do their next they're not solutions that will settle here in the next two days no correct and and the solutions that that would be strictly the rise originally budget playoffs you know so it would be cops and be more public works me layoffs and there's a decision to make and it's not an easy decision we can stick with original proposed budget do the layoffs pat ourselves in the back for balancing a budget that doesn't include any taxes increases and starts you may perhaps a long-term plan of living within our means but there's some very real consequences of that plan and I don't think I can pat myself in the back for having that many cops not on the street so I'm looking at this right now and my support is going to at this point is for this amendment thank you thank you vice president or inflation I think there's one thing we have to remember as the political leaders of this city we're in the service business that's what we do we don't we don't manufacture a product we don't sell anything we're in the service business we provide service to our citizens and every time that we cut you can look at it as bodies or people personnel but along with that comes lesser services and you know we're in the service business unfortunately we we don't manufacture a product that we can go out and sell more of it to increase our revenues the our funding sources that is the tax levy and every time that we every time that we reduce personnel we're reducing services and we have to look at what our priorities are you know with all respect to in the library issue is a separate issue from what we're discussing here this is the general fund budget but I can recall moving here 36 years ago in 1974 from Chicago when I was a kid and my father came home it was after the Arab oil embargo he was working for Standard Oil Company and he said we're moving to Sheboygan Wisconsin and we first broke out a map to figure out where the heck Sheboygan Wisconsin was and once we figured that out he said it's about 50,000 people and it's very safe that was the first words out of his mouth that was the decision that he sold us kids on when we were kids to move here that it was very safe and we have to remember that we're in the service business that was the selling point that brought us to Sheboygan. Alderperson Montemure. Thank You Mr. Mayor. I want to agree with Alderman Flesch and with you hard decisions don't always and shouldn't always mean cutting services to the taxpayers because the taxpayers pay every year and it's our job to provide those services no matter what hard decisions we have to make hard decisions should also mean providing the services to the taxpayers. Thank You Alderperson Montemure. Vice President Rinfles she just spoke right now. Second question please. On the plan as presented in community the whole and as we made the amendments for but keeping the tax rate the same we're actually looking at a levy increase of 200,000 is that correct? Correct. Okay what are our our state mandated caps on the levy increase do we know? We have 2.6 million available. 2.6 million. So we have a possibility of doing the 200,000 without too much difficulty and just still maintain the same levy rate. I'm going to pay the same on my house. We're at the same tax rate. My guy hasn't gone up so. Provided that your value hasn't moved on your home you'll be paying the exact same the exact same dollar amount provided that your your home has not moved on assessment the exact same dollar amount for the city portion of your tax bill in in this January as you did last January according to the point that I wanted to bring up was I had heard some comments about while raising taxes raising taxes and to a degree the levy is going to increase by 200,000 at this point in time while again it though is I know my home assist has not increased like it used to be in 10 years ago you know every year there was substantial increases it seems that I'm looking at for this plan to save for me the police officers on the street for the city portion I'm not increasing I know I'm going to increase on LTC and I'm going to increase on the county I'm going to have to pay more on the school board as well but it looks like this plan like you know keeps my top priority at this point in time in line without increasing my bottom line so point that out thank you that's correct Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor I'm sorry I'm gonna you guys he's gonna love me I got it I got to make sure the numbers add up in my head if I'm going to I'm gonna vote for something now for caught me in a bad moment I do not have my calculator with me horrible horrible color of the paper just so I have this clear for the public works folks the initial proposed cuts in the 1.7 million was $541,000 we were gonna have to look for somewhere to come up with the $541,000 they came back to us with for $434,000 they came back to us so we don't have to look for that anymore they came to us with that correct so we're short now we're we now we need to look for $107,000 well the $107,000 there was $40,000 in tipping fees that we don't need for 2011 that's in the hundred and seven there's $25,000 of reduced salt purchases because we believe unless we have a severe winter we have enough ice on hand salt I'm sorry a lot of ice on the way though we city buildings building improvements were one-time savings for another $20,000 in that streets and alleys there was construction materials of 10,000 one-time savings landscaping supplies a one-time savings of $10,000 so all of those hundred that hundred and $7,000 was non-people related savings public works director Bill Bittner would like to say a word also I think we're kind of confused holes in the budget the mayor submitted a recommended budget which had that 450 some thousand in it already and there was those cuts didn't have to be looked for they were made but they had significant consequences the union negotiations at the union was very willing to come back and give up their raises which is I think they need to be commended allows us to actually put money back in they might make the only thing that I would differ with is we were laying off a number of positions giving positions under the union agreement is not exactly a concession from the union it was it's just accepting the cuts that are already in the budget but that wasn't a hole to find if you simply follow the cuts that were in the mayor's executive budget we would have to make a bunch of cuts this was just alternative to those cuts and end up balancing in another way and end up using the concessions to restore some of the cuts we have to make that sure no no yeah I understand that but if those are if those are we're not looking for the $434,000 anymore this it's been we've found the 434,000 so we're short so to speak and deficit wise because if we look here Alderman Samson if we have the original proposed reductions of a million seven if you look at Jim do you want to go through these numbers one more time you stuck on the hundred and seven are you talking just the public works budget right because I can add all the other ones but it's just I'm trying to I don't I don't get one we start with 1.7 million that were that were in a hole and we have revised the ductions of 516,000 in the middle column and then we have a million 18,000 for the additions and you go through and you find all these nice numbers in red here match the outside column but we're still 1.7 minus 516,000 does not equal 1,018 no that's the cops grant that wasn't in there still doesn't equal that if you add the cops grant in there if you subtract the 516,000 from 1.7 it doesn't it doesn't add up the million the million is the total of the additions column right you have revised deductions of 516,000 I know 1.7 million minus 500,000 is not 1.0 516,000 right 1.710 minus 516,000 is almost like I was almost 1.2 million 1.181 1.194 nine point not 1.018 yeah I'm missing something 1194 right would be 1.7 million minus the 516,000 and then we have to take the cops grant and add that in add that into where into the 1 million 18 because that's just in the proposed cuts but we're not cutting it we're going to if we keep the 6 patrolmen we're going to keep the cops grant so that would be in the budget but that goes back yeah it goes in and revenue and expense so that's a wash to the budget for the grant Eric I think a stab at this I think the cops grant for a lack of better place to put it was put into the proposed reductions reality is probably shouldn't have been there in the first place because what the cops grant is was federal funds that were coming to us by maintaining our staffing so the it's not money that's coming out of taxpayer our local taxpayers funds is being funded to us the reason why it's in reduction column is probably because if we don't find ways to line above find at least the 213,000 that we added back in we would have to forego that cops grant which is why it's under reduction because a reduction under a line item that the police had used within their budget but it's not a line items coming from the taxpayers so it's not being added back in the additions we even though it should be should the line shouldn't be there all period what it is then so that you took out the 1.7 million subtract out the cops grant to whatever number that equals to then subtract the 516,000 reduction you get the 1.1 1.18 million right but the confusion is because we're looking at it's not a reduction from what we're looking at taxing coming out of the local tax levy that reductions what's coming out of the budget and what was budgeted for was based on 246,000 coming from a federal grant we would not get that federal grant if we don't find at least 213 to keep the seven-petrol three new hires we lose that grant but that grant isn't being taken out of then this the local taxpayers so that line item is actually two two different things it's going to be it's a reduction out of the out of the budget for the police department but it's not a reduction out of of or an increase if we don't do it out of the tax levy so take that out and then do the math and then it should work out the cops grant actually should just probably not even be on here because it's not the difference the difference is if you take that 1 million 710 you back out the cops grant to 246 you back out the $30,000 grant for the police that we found last week 1434 and if you take 516 from that you get 918 into the 918 you had the hundred thousand for SC okay thank you so what we have here is the $30,000 on the other grant that's not in here correct we just take we just take out the cops grant totally right and now we it doesn't it doesn't confuse the sheet even though we are getting three patrol officers through the federal funding Alderman Samson does that make sense now we're good yep thank you we good thank you anybody else have any questions on the math all right we're good there okay further discussion thank you I guess I just like to make a call it an editorial comment if you will I mean might be wondering why I wasn't chiming in on the numbers crunching you know we spent a quite a fair amount of time vetting the spreadsheet and the numbers and I understand it may be a tad bit confusing but trust me the numbers are correct on this but I look at it we really have four alternatives as a council to decide tonight or propose tonight decide on Wednesday we can increase the levy actually five alternative you will increase the levy decrease reserves layoff combination of all those or take a look at this plan that was put together with a lot of forethought and it doesn't do any of those doesn't increase the levy it doesn't increase layoffs and it doesn't take money out of the general fund yes is it is it perfect does it bring all of our Union brethren in and beat them over the head and say you should give up more of your stuff under a contract negotiating good faith no but it keeps the police on the streets it keeps the firefighters on the streets and it keeps the DPW folks cleaning our parks and doing the things necessary so again I I didn't chime in on the whole calculation debate because I know the numbers are correct what we have to decide is you know do we want to accept this or what the alternatives are not the math of it figure out of an Hammond Jim would you like to come yeah I just like to make one of the comment and looking back I went back as far as 2002 it appears the 2010 for the first time in the city in the last 10 years it's had a balanced budget by that I mean revenue equal to expense if you go back to 2009 the budget approved revenue was less than expense by 1.8 million dollars if you go back to 2008 revenue was less than expense approved budget by $2 million if you go back to 2007 revenue is less than expense by 4.5 million 2006 revenue less than expense 2.6 million 2005 revenue less than expense by 1.5 million so this problem has been here for a long time and we've chosen to act differently the upside is and we can call it luck or good management that we've underspent the budget that's been presented and or had some a different additional revenue we didn't count on to counteract the proposed deficits in these budgets and if you take from 2005 to 2009 if there wasn't for some additional revenue and or good budget management by the city managers the general fund balance would be zero because that would add up to a negative $12 million over those five years in fund reserve balances and at the end of 2009 we had a reserve balance of 11 million so that's what we face going into 2011 this is again a balanced budget yes it has some carry forward problems but not to the degrees that we've seen them in the past and I believe they're manageable especially with negotiations coming up for 2012 thanks you Alderman Raceler I guess I'm gonna defer until we get a little bit more resolved regarding discussing the library and some of my option plans thank you Alderman Bowers yes thank you so in other words what you're saying is the budget for the last five years the expenditures have come in under the revenue or they've come over the revenue revenues were less than expenditures okay the budget was over spent for budget was over for up until 2010-2010 our budget submitted to the state because I think there's a state law so you must have a balanced budget so there's ways around that or is that another these are the budgets that were submitted submitted to the state correct am I correct Nancy balance budget we balance it with reserves okay so my next question is where's the meat public library figure in this budget the meat public library Alderman Bowers is a separate fund which we're discussing after we complete this document all right the meat public library is not in the general fund it's a separate fund all right this is the general fund we're discussing right now Alderman Samson please I apologize for it for my own confusion on the numbers it was certainly Alderman Hammond it was certainly not to question the numbers they make sense in your mind and I'm sure you the mayor and Mr. Motio did a lot of work and a lot of hours on coming up with those so it certainly wasn't questioning the numbers it was just to make sense the numbers in my brain just like they're making sense in yours I wasn't necessarily questioning the numbers whether they were working I just had to clear them up in my head so I certainly appreciate the time that you folks put behind putting that together it's not an easy thing so I didn't want to I just wanted to clear up in my own my own brain so thank you spreadsheet was confusing and that's my bed thanks Alderman Samson because for a while you had me confused too so okay I have no lights lit up here any further discussion on this portion of the budget we do have an amendment on the floor to the general fund budget which is the document before you we have a motion and a second to accept that amendment we can amend the budget budget this evening however we cannot take the final vote on the budget until Wednesday so is there any further discussion the the motion on the floor is to adopt the general fund budget with these amendments Alderman Hammond Hannah Alderman Hannah to make these amendments to the budget but not to adopt the budget until Wednesday thank you Steve that's why you're the attorney just a just a clarification point the levy is going up 200,000 yes the tax rate remains the same two-thirds approval by the councilor just a simple majority and the attorney saying no it's just a simple majority right the it's just a simple majority on the actual budget a budget alteration if you were changing the approved budget that requires a two-thirds vote thank you to establish the budget or make amendments to the proposed budget it's just thank you say majority of the entire council which would be nine members it is not the majority of present Alderman Raceler again one thing for clarification we're going to have the option of sleeping on this for 48 hours and the ability to amend on Wednesday as well correct sure as long as you don't have a turkey to cook no we can be here all night Wednesday that's why we make the big bucks okay Alderman Bowers yes thank you so the amendment is this yes that was presented to us so this is the amendment to the original budget to the original proposed executive budget correct all right and that would be just to the general number 1533 or 1532 or not either one I don't know that would be the I believe it would be res 129 Alderman Bowers yeah it's a be 1532 32 yes okay thank you okay is there any further discussion if there is none the vote is on President Kittleson thank you mayor just to clarify now if we were voting to this particular document we're amending to send that to forward for Wednesday nights we will send the budget forward to Wednesday to Wednesday revised with this document are we at that time can we amend or can we talk further here at that point this can be amended again if somebody would like or we can we can we can speak all night about this if you'd like the floor is still open we haven't voted on it yet so that means we can talk about the line that that would be a separate that is a separate fund for discussion yes this this is this particular document does not affect the library one way or the other just to clarify also if any of the other Alderman have proposed changes to the budget this is one proposed change to the budget doesn't mean other Alderman can't present other changes whether this proposed amendment passes or doesn't pass so everything's open at this point thank you President Kittleson Alderman Bowers did you have something else yes thank you could you clarify that Tony McLean you said that take it took it's going to take 12 to vote for what an amendment or a simple majority I guess I was confused on that the budget to adopt the budget requires a majority of the members elect of the council that's the members elect are 16 so it requires a majority of 16 which is nine okay once the budget is adopted to amend or to change the existing approved budget requires a public notice in the paper and a two-thirds vote of the council to change the budget after it's adopted all right so if you wanted to change the 2010 budget as it was passed last November right that requires a two-thirds vote all right but to adopt the present budget is just a majority of the members elect of the council okay so that would have also be if the mayor vetoes some of the does he need the two or twelve member vote to override the veto or council would need a two-thirds vote to override any mayoral veto yes all right thank you thank you Alderman Bowers is there any further discussion on this portion of the budget so we are voting to revise the present budget with these figures and to bring that to a final vote or more amendments on Wednesday so to clear on that in aye vote would be to vote for the budget with these amendments a no vote would not correct you just voting for the amendment just the moment yes we're not voting for the final budget right for the amendments to the budget so right now there's just one amendment which is this sheet right here okay roll call please Hammond hi Hannah hi hi to men hi hi Kittleson hi Montemay or I Ryn Flesch hi Raceler hi Samson hi Vander wheel hi Wongamon hi boron no and Bowers no Levin eyes to knows on the amendment motion carries to be continued Wednesday okay now we are looking at the other resolution correct budget appropriations for the city of Sheboygan funds that is correct so resolution number 130-10-11 by Alderperson's Hammond Bowen Ryn Flesch and Raceler ordering the 2011 budget appropriations for city of Sheboygan funds we need a motion to put that upon its passage and a second for discussion okay so this is just for under under discussion Alderman Raceler thank you mr. Mayor I handed out a document to each of the Alderman regarding the meet public library I think we had very large support from your constituents and mine regarding the public library this evening and emphasizing the need to keep the funding for the library or attempt to come up with the funding for the library I guess I can't overstate the importance of library and all those people have spoke this evening I think we ought to the citizens and our constituents to try to come up with the funding to support the library I gave you six funding options regarding this and quickly just going over them the first funding option is to do nothing and leave it at the $300,000 reduction and then there's various funding options including some furlough days and some reduction in the funding for new items as well as number six which would be to provide a zero percent or excuse me a two thousand eight hundred forty five dollar increase to the 2010 budget which would also meet the maintenance of effort on the bottom of the form is also the location of some possible funding they start with the general fund or the possibility of some tax increase to go with twelve cents per one hundred thousand or twelve dollars per an average home which would be a hundred thousand dollar home and then there's also another one on the bottom if we choose to go with a lesser amount it would actually be down to four cents per thousand and four dollars per one hundred thousand home obviously the twelve and four dollars by our no means anything that are extensive as far as the tax increase I guess what I'm looking for is before I make a motion I'm looking for some discussion as to what might be favorable or what might not be favorable as far as trying to come up with a document to help the library thank you Alderman Riesler under further discussion president Kittleson Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor going back to the do you understand that you understand that nine alderman out of 16 majority give me another 24 hours I'll come right back at you with this one any of these these Alderman Riesler just some of these options here to reduce service hours by five furlough days any of these options were those discussed with anybody in that that's going to be affected by that or is that something that we just decide here and that's just the way it is I've been in continuous discussions with the members of the library in the board and these these are acceptable options that they said we'll we'll go along with probably other than number one it would be something that they would be probably willing to work with and try to make do with I guess we can actually call this she's Sharon's department had I believe right yes if you'd like to I don't want to speak out of school Sharon library director Sharon Lincoln I don't want to speak out of school so please thank you very much yes we have had I have had a conversation as a library director with Alderman Riesler nationally anything that involves the library at this major level needs discussion with the library board and action by the library board but the options that you see in front of you are options that were embedded if you will in earlier budgets that were submitted for discussion when we first began discussion with Mayor Ryan and finance director emotio one of the options we had submitted was a two hundred thousand dollar expenditure reduction and so that's that's one of the things you see listed there and then you see variations that reduce the decrease to the funding proposed for 2011 need to have funding added of course in order to do that and as you move along that continuum the service reductions that the public would experience decrease until we get to the point where the council in that option that is under discussion would fund the meet public library at the maintenance of effort level for 2011 which would require an increase of three hundred two thousand eight hundred forty five from the executive budget recommended funding level for 2011 thank you Sharon you can stay up here for we may have some questions okay Alderman born no questions of Sharon thank you Sharon Alderman born thank you mayor I would like the police chief the fire chief of the DPW director to come up and talk about when they were going over their budgets for 2011 whether they considered possibly reducing their administrative staffs and my thinking is after listening to them if it's possible if we could get an administrative position out of the fire department the police department DPW of just rough calculations each one of those people would salary and benefits would be about a hundred thousand dollars there's our funding for the library so I would like to have the three department heads tell us if they consider doing any reductions from their administrative staffs if they can if they can't and why or why not thank you chief Domigalski from the police department chief Herman from the fire department in putting together a budget to get to the number that I got to I eliminated one and a half administrative positions we eliminated one staff position in this year one in 2006 as I continue to look at reorganizing it would cause me to move a staff person down into a union position I am looking at quite a substantial change in the hours of our staff people for more flexibility that could possibly entail reorganizing the entire staff chief when would that would that be for 2011 or you're looking at 2012 the hour changes would be in 11 we also have a open fire inspector position which is a union position at this time I am considering incorporating that as a part of staff positions the executive budget that the council received including the concluded an elimination of at one administrative position required us to actually consolidate our operations simply to have coverage because of those administrative things it does not include any elimination of supervisory positions but in the last three years we've eliminated over 30 positions in the department I would suggest that most that that supervisory has been disproportionately eliminated such as when I came here the parts was supervised by three supervisors it's now has one supervisor so we've done a lot in terms of reducing and I don't believe we can reduce anymore now the understanding we are losing four positions in public works maintenance again with the union's concessions just which four of those are now changes a little bit from the proposed budget because we had some of those dollars to come back in and reinstate back in I was looking at the historically public works back in the mid 1980s we had I think 215 people in our department of public works now we're almost cracking down below 100 so we've definitely done some staff reductions over time jeep Alderman born we I also reduced three lieutenant positions for 2011 yeah next we have Alderman Hannah Alderman Bowers please no Alderman Hannah is next my question actually was for sharing okay yeah Alderman Bowers you can jump out order here please go ahead okay you had a question for the chief I take it yes thank you chief you said that these staff reductions were 2011 do you have any amount of money that would be saved or different different that was figured into the budget already oh it's been figured in already so that's been figured in so you don't see any further reductions in 2011 not as was committed in the budget no okay thank you thank your Alderman Bowers thank you chief we have any other questions for the three department heads that were up here Alderman Rindflesch kind of gonna kind of jump out of order here a little bit if so these guys off the police chief especially came up and went the comment I have on that is even with the amendment the police is still being cut from their budget from last year $198,000 they're not getting funded their full request even with this amendment there's still gonna be pain in there and that's still gonna be I'm sure it's gonna be you have three three less officers than we're on the T.O. That might be administrative I'm gonna be officers I leave that to the to the department has to do so I guess in comments Alderman Boren any further reductions of that department if there's a position that that can be found to be expendable or something that has to go back and be on our general fund budget and meet make amendments that way because the me lover isn't within the general fund it's on its own fun comes out of the general tax love you however so to move money from the police department to the library hitting books versus cops and two different funds together I think is inappropriate I think we're looking at you know voting one thing if we support the police department at that would that particular level and support it if you disagree with that level of support then don't support the budget but keep the library a separate issue thank you thank you all to move in flesh is there any other questions for the three department heads Alderman Samson please go ahead thank you I'm sorry chief and police chief don't go ski I guess that my main thing is are there any overlapping I understand I have all the respect for the fire department and police and I certainly respect the job that they do but I understand that there's also times where people get promoted promoted promoted or people get shifted around to where they start overlapping a lot of different positions and overseeing things we heard from DPW that there were three three folks supervising the parks but now they're down to one is there any extra spot position that that might be overlapping that you can see that was that's one the next and chief you said you have hourly change to staff and an open inspection position that you still have that hasn't been figured in any of these these numbers it so that's still a possibility or has that already been figured into the numbers that all those numbers are in the budget as so okay so the hourly change of the staff and the one open position that's the hourly changes to the staff are not figured in the budget and there's not actually savings to that that's just a functional change for to make us operate better okay so then I guess the only thing I had left them was that is there any overlapping positions that we might be able to move around to free up a little excess a little extra money in there I know I know everything's tight but if there's just any extra positions that we might be able to eliminate that are overlapping maybe we can look at something like that I don't have that in my department Alderman Samson if I can answer your question somewhat there as part of our general fund as part of this budget which we know this budget is not the long-term answer we fully intend to December 1st activate the strategic fiscal planning committee to look at just at those issues and to come up with a plan whatever we can institute initiate in 2011 we will and whatever we can get to that can help us out in contract negotiations in 2011 for 2012 that's all part of that plan to go here right now and try to after we have a preliminary budget at least to try to in two days figure out who we can eliminate there when we have given these department's goals of here's your target that you need to hit I don't think is going to be productive at this point however I do think that if we through the strategic fiscal planning committee and getting involved in the in detail with department heads getting input without micro management on our point and coming up with mutual solutions I think we can can make a lot of progress Alderman Hannah did you have a question for just for Sharon director Winkle please thank you director I think it was Kathy Norman that said now's the now's the time to focus on creative solutions when she was up there speaking tonight couple things I need clarified it's my understanding and I need you to confirm or or tell me I'm wrong my understanding is that in all likelihood if we miss the maintenance of effort we would not be removed from Eastern shores that's my first question do you will we be removed from Eastern shores in 2011 the library budget that is based on the $300,000 reduction makes the assumption takes the risk if you will that there may be penalties in 2011 but that expulsion would not take place until 2012 if the maintenance of effort funding level is not met second question is I know at the fiscal year-end for the city you had undesignated funds north of 600,000 in reserves and I think it's down to 400,000 now are you allowed to voluntarily give those back to the city I don't have the answer to that question I mean it's likely that the library board since it has a lot of power regarding the finances of the library could make that determination would they then count for maintenance of effort that's the crux of the question I think that you're asking the attorney general's office to reexamine I mean we have the statute about how you calculate MOE we have a letter to the city of Washburn from 2006 that clarifies that prior year funds aren't included in the maintenance of effort calculation so let's say the library board did do that likely that wouldn't satisfy the maintenance of effort requirement so it's that's really a separate question just wouldn't know but it's certainly within your purview if you if the library board saw fit they could return undesignated fund balances I think they probably could when you look at the undesignated well really we don't have any undesignated fund balance we have you did it at the audit time we have reserved funds right and they're all designated now they're right yeah and there's a it's a little it's over four hundred thousand dollars it's under 15 percent of the total budget of the library and some of these things are designated for for example replacement of the integrated library system so if the library and the city were expelled from Eastern shores library system that's an important source of funding to keep the library operating just looking for creative I understand and I really appreciate it thank you all of my powers yes thank you if I understand this correctly didn't didn't we run into the same problem last year in somewhere you came up with the funds or the library board or somewhere the funds were taken out of the reserve funds what happened last year is that in February actually of 2010 the Common Council amended the 2010 budget using money I believe from the general fund some 228 thousand dollars in order to meet the maintenance of effort requirement for 2010 so it played out rather late into the budget cycle certainly in the reporting cycle again there was an amendment in February of this year then allow the city to meet that funding requirement yeah we contributed and I thought the library contributed they contributed both cash and a liability so their contribution was neutral yes in a separate action the library board agreed to turn over to the city for its own purposes to be determined by the Common Council the liability accounts that it had accumulated over the years for the purpose of paying vacation and sick leave liability those in a way really weren't reserves they were for liabilities that the library board has and in that agreement that was adopted by the council in late 2009 if I recall correctly the liability also transferred as Alderman Hannah is saying so the library board no longer has that liability and no longer has those funds okay I have talked with certain state representatives and with the new regime coming into Madison they seem to think there might be a change in protocol as far as maintenance of effort and so far if I recall correctly the city of Milwaukee has not met the maintenance of effort so far what has happened to that library anything that's what leads us to believe that we would have a year if maintenance of effort legislation stands as it currently is because Milwaukee Public Library and the city of Milwaukee did not meet the maintenance of effort funding requirement for 2010 and there were some penalties issued by the Milwaukee County Federated Library system not expulsion penalties with the information or guidance to the effect that the city and library should meet maintenance of effort in 2011 and according to library director Paula Kiley that is indeed the case that the city of Milwaukee and Milwaukee Public Library as they're developing and adopting the budget will meet the maintenance of effort funding requirement for 2011 I see okay thank you I'm sharing on those penalties I believe that that was some federal some federal grants or federal funds that they were that were they were not eligible for yes as well as some information technology support and consulting we don't receive any federal funds correct we are eligible to and we have yes but we don't have any in this budget correct not for 2010 I don't know there might have been in 2009 I don't know if there are any in the 2010 budget thank you I'd have to check Alderman Samson thank you Mr. Mayor I'm sorry this this question was actually for Alderman Hammond just wanted to find out the status of that letter that we were waiting for from the attorney general if we have any news on that Alderman him thank you attorney McLean has drafted it forwarded it to me I have not had a chance to review it I he forwarded it to me this afternoon I have not had a chance to review it but that's my plan for tomorrow morning we have not got it has not been submitted to the AG's office yet I would not expect a response by Wednesday no and as a practical matter that's not gonna be the solution regardless of what the AG says as far as counting unspent funds or not counting unspent funds it's not gonna magically get us to the maintenance of effort level it would help but it wouldn't get us there that's understandable just trying to type a loose loose in there it was out there so thank you Alderman Samson Alderman Hammond yes just real quick on the maintenance of effort or the hundred or the reserve funds whatever you want to call it that would only get us about a hundred thousand dollars so based off of you know the calculations again if you read the statute it would we'd still have about 200,000 that we'd need to make up if we need to fund that true maintenance of effort calculation but I would like to ask mr. director of Mordio to maybe speak a little bit on one of the things that director Winkle was talking about with the pension funds or the vacation sick pay leave maybe want to clarify a little bit about that we know what's the city's future obligations now that they transferred over to us and all that kind of yeah the the resolution that was passed transferred a liability from the library for vacation and sick leave for all of its employees of $443,000 and in return the city would fund out of the $443,000 reserved that they received from the library 228,000 to meet maintenance of effort for 2010 the city still holds and the general fund the liability for $443,000 and ultimately we'll have to make up over time as these people retire the 228,000 that was given for maintenance of effort if that clarifies if we can I can clarify I believe that $4343,000 that's a figure for vacation and sick leave upon termination from employment with the city correct that's that's the accumulated that we that we'd have to pay out Sharon yes you are those were two separate agreements so the exchange of funds for the liability in the liability situation was guided by an agreement it made no mention of the city's ability or interest in funding the library at the maintenance of effort in 2010 so to say that of the 443,000 transfer of 228,000 was used to meet maintenance of effort that may have been the way the city chose to meet the obligation then when it decided to fund the library at MOE funding level for 2010 but that wasn't in the agreement with the library board and I think the library board made it clear when it was discussing the agreement for the transfer of the funds along with the liability that there was no expectation of MOE funding that was directly related to that agreement Alderman Hammond thank you I guess you know this is a lack of a better word quite the pickle in order to fund maintenance of effort again leaving the AG's opinion out we need to be at 302,845 dollars the options and by the way I'd like to commend Alderman Reisler for putting this together you know it's always nice when people may have an objection but come with solutions and I do commend you for doing that but none of the other options meet maintenance of effort so is the issue whether or not we meet maintenance of effort and stay in Eastern Shores library I think the director just answered that we would not be kicked out of the Eastern Shores library system in 2011 if we did not meet maintenance of effort so the next question is do we want to give them more funding in order to reduce the amount of service outages that they would would entail by cutting the full 300,000 so you know I think the maintenance of effort conversation is kind of in my opinion off the table because we know we're not going to be cut out of Eastern Shores library in 2011 but the next conversation needs to be you know are the service cuts that are necessary or are the service cuts proposed necessary and do we want to fund any or all of those those shortfalls so I guess that's my take on it thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Bowers thank you I'd just like to point out to the people in the audience and also on TV the city of Sheboygan is assessed somewhere around $55 per citizen the towns somewhere around $15 per person I don't know if they're aware of this at Ozaki County it's under a dollar now how we ever gots with the city funding all this and what the formula is I don't know does anybody know what the formula is or can it be changed or can we change it because we're bearing the front of this county library system and I know the county doesn't want to take it over I've asked them they said no way I offered it to them also okay and I said it's free you can have it but of course I'm speaking out of turn but anyway is there any way this funding can be reorganized does anybody have an answer to that first of all let me clarify what I just said I said that and just we have shared services meetings and the county it seems on shared services their idea of shared services are to take over the city services so I did offer the library as part of a shared service and they turned me down so that was that was all done in just so just so I make myself clear there Alderman Samson thank you Mr. Mayor since since one of those funding options it keeps coming up as the general fund if we can find out Mr. Amodeo where exactly are we at general fund wise or our position is for fear of reducing our bond rating or affecting our bond rating or whatever the general fund seems to seems to come up often when it when it comes to trying to figure out money for this so I'd just like to know what is our position in the general fund and do we have any flexibility there without fear of doing damage to the city Jim at the last meeting I commented on the general fund the balance anyway currently the balance in the general fund has about three point eight million dollars of undesignated reserve reserve balances there's a designated portion to that which was passed by council in 2005 that said there was four million dollars needed for working capital and that would be designated as reserve in addition the resolution went further on to say in looking at the prior year's expenditures compared to that of the year before that if there was an increase in expenditures the same increase should be made to the fund reserve balances as a designated reserve so in looking at it from 2005 we've kept it at four million dollars and really it should have gone up based on the increases in spending since 2005 through 2009 of roughly another half million dollars that would take the general fund undesignated reserve balance to three point three million or roughly twenty seven percent of the total general fund reserve balance we've been told by Ehlers and also by Moody's the general fund balance undesignated reserve should be around twenty five percent of the total so a twenty seven percent you know we're right on the cusp of that I don't know where the two thousand and ten's gonna shake out I'm pretty nervous on revenue side not from county and city but from other revenue sources that we budget we're significantly under on interest income we had a lot of sales in for land and buildings the city owned that we haven't sold this year expenses seem to pretty be pretty much in line there could be close to a half a million dollar savings if I do the simple math but I'm not sure about anything and that's through the end of October I'm not sure if there's there's anything hanging out there for November and December or even if we have a bad winter so I'm pretty nervous about the budget plus or minus you know my take is it might be neutral to that I don't see it right now detracting significantly from the general fund but I don't see it adding to if you will so that leaves us roughly two percent of three point three million dollars that we would have we also have to look at the proposed 2011 general fund budget right now and even the hundred thousand dollars we'd normally leave and continue and see is figured in the budget there's not a lot of wiggle room in this budget if you know what I mean if you know we get a bill midway through the year from the state the way we did a couple of years ago for WRF or something of the sort I think what what did we have somewhere around a half million dollar bill between WRF and tipping funds that they sent us in July it doesn't give us a lot of room thank you thanks Jim thank you Alderman Samson Alderman Hammond hang tight just to kind of further expand on I am holding in my hand from our June meeting with the folks from Ehlers they look at four or those are on the finance committee we're in on this meeting they really look at four criteria is to help determine our bond rating and the number one is the undesignated general fund percentage of total operating revenue so at 3.3 million that's about 10% just doing rough math on a 35 million dollar budget our bond rating for those that are interested is a double A2 for Moody's that's a fairly decent bond rating given the economic conditions in the size of our city the median undesignated general fund percentage revenue of total operations is 17.6 we're at 14.9 that's as of this and now again as director Motio pointed out had we've been following that resolution it would probably be lower let me put that into some numbers our bond rating goes down and again we have to go out for capital in multiple different areas it could be somewhere between 25 basis points and 50 basis or quarter of a percent to a half a percent of additional interest that we have to pay on our debt which be far exceed over time the three hundred thousand dollars that we would gain by rating the general fund to to fund the maintenance of effort so I thought I'd maybe just clarify that a little bit with how that works in kind of reality when it comes to the bond rating so thank you thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Rintz-Flesch do you have any questions Alderman Hammond just answered the question that's going to pose to Jim Motio but the second part I was going to ask and and perhaps you can speak to this as well beyond the dollar amount and the costs and the fact that that whatever savings we gain by using the general fund reserves right now maintenance of effort will be easily enough in a short period of time when we have to go to the capital markets that actually cost us as taxpayers more in the short term and long term I think beyond that is it a good idea for cities in general for something that should be in the tax levy and fund on a regular basis of the tax levy to use short-term expediencies like going into the general reserve fund to tell and to what Alderman Boren had said before saying we're just kicking the problem on down the road if we go to the general fund and find the 302845 reserves was our maintenance efforts become next year and where is that funding going to come from or is it a better idea to if we're committed to funding the library at the maintenance effort of 302845 to go to the tax levy you know if that's what we decide to do fun that way and then continue to fund that year by year that way instead of going to the the general reserve is that more appropriate if that's what the council decides I would believe that an increase in the taxes to support the library be there the more prudent way to go rather than take from general fund reserves the stronger our fund reserve balances are the better off the city is and be and being able to capacitize all of its debt and get it at the lowest possible rate that they that the the market offers at the time we go out if people feel strongly about the library and they're willing to pay for it through tax levy increase and that's what we should do thank you vice president inflation mr. Emodeo Alderman Bowers yes since no one offered any information is to the formula where will we go to get the formula for our portion of the library in the county's portion and Ozaki's County Nancy do you have that or to Sharon do you have that sure please I think Alderman Bowers that you're referring to the fact that by statutes counties pay for services provided to their residents who live in jurisdictions that don't offer public library service yes okay so when you look at the way me library is funded about and this is for 2009 76% of the funding came from the appropriations from the common council sheboygan common council and the rest came from other sources including payments from sheboygan County payments from some adjacent counties other than Ozaki County and Ozaki County okay when you look at the usage of the library on the basis of checkouts 74% of the checkouts were made to residents of the city of sheboygan so you seem to have a concern about an imbalance there in level of responsibility but if you look at usage based on checkouts it's not really particularly out of balance there's no formula per se it's a statutory obligation for counties to make those payments and right now the way it's set up an eastern shores library system eastern shores library system acts as the agent for all of the member libraries when it negotiates payments from sheboygan and Ozaki County in the form of a five-year county library plan which by the way was just adopted this year for the next five-year period by both counties so the the payment formulas and maybe that's where that word comes in or the payment calculations are included in that five-year plan which is a local plan the minimum per by statute is paying on 70% of the cost of circulation per a calculation that is set forth in the statutes does that help thank you Sharon Alderman Samson thank you mr. Mayor I would just like to caution everyone in here and be very careful again when we go back into the we start talking about taxes raising taxes of any sort we're facing this issue right now as a council as a city you go door-to-door and you're going to meet a whole lot of people that are taxpayers that we get this money from we keep increasing the counties increased school boards increased LTC keeps increasing who knows state federal taxes are going up you may you may talk four dollars here twelve dollars here may sound like a little dollar amount but I've met a number of people that that even the slightest increases along with all the other increases that are coming down the road here very soon and then the the reality of the unknown with a lot more job losses a lot more factories not a whole lot really coming in at this point raising taxes or threat of it and we also right now we have the tax levy of the 200,000 that we're already dealing with in the in the general fund so we want to go higher I understand the library is extremely important but I think we need to be very very cautious when we start talking about more taxes more taxes more taxes when I think we should be at a time where maybe we should do some more cuts than bringing taxes involved thank you thank you Alderman Samson Alderman board thank you may Ryan for the sake of discussion I'm going to make a motion to go with Alderman Racelor's scenario number six and that would be a tax levy increase of twelve cents per thousand or equivalent of twelve twelve dollars per one hundred for the full three hundred and two thousand eight hundred and forty five dollars to restore the funding second okay we have a motion and a second to fund the library at option number six decrease the funding reduction in other words the proposed reduction to zero dollars add two thousand eight hundred and forty five dollars to the twenty two thousand nine budget in order to cover maintenance of effort for excuse me for the twenty to the twenty ten budget in order to cover maintenance of effort for twenty eleven which would twelve-cent one that you're looking at right tax levy increase of twelve cents per hundred per thousand dollars equivalent or twelve dollars for a hundred on a hundred thousand we have a motion and a second on that option under discussion Alderman Montemayor thank you Mr. Mayor thank you Alderman Bourne for doing that I think this past week on Tuesday a number of us were at the Sheboygan County Economic Development Corporation video that was presented and it was inspiring I was inspired by all that Sheboygan stands for and part of it was the library and the lake and the John Michael Kohler Art Center and the number of movers and shakers that were in that video telling the world come to Sheboygan bring business to Sheboygan because we have all these wonderful things to offer you when you move here and the people that you will hire and the administration that you will bring here and we all know that the library is part of that wonderful vision the future is bringing more jobs here and the library is part of that so I think this is a good idea thank you thank you Alderman Montemayor Alderman Rindflash thank you Mr. Mayor as the discussion now is is made clear thanks to the motion and I agree if it's we're committing to finding the library you should be the tax levy if we're not going to raise the tax levy that don't find the library I mean it has to be that clear to try to play games with the city budget in the long term it doesn't make sense to me so the question is raising the tax levy or not my concern is even with the amendment that we just recently passed on the general fund police are taking a hundred ninety thousand dollar hit administration is taking a two hundred two thousand dollar hit public works taking a hundred and seven thousand dollar hit that's still within our you know from the last years from the original proposed reductions and the reductions didn't even include last year's budget I'm correct right so all those apartments are taking a hit we're still looking at you know cuts of five hundred sixteen thousand and other departments I have a tough time you know I said I don't want the debate to be between cops and books but what are we what are our motions doing here today find a library a hundred percent and not find the cops a hundred percent so I agree with Alderman Samson to say take a look at not only the will people want to pay a tax hike or not and for what services but also what are the actions are we taking we're also are we cutting that way and I don't know the answer I'm not going to tell you or you know recommend how to vote other people to vote that way I'm so entirely decide how I'm gonna vote on this issue that way but for those that think that three hundred thousand close the library they're still getting three point one seven million dollars out of the budget library will still be open regardless of how we vote on it there will be service cutbacks make no doubt about it just like there's cutbacks on the police just like those cutbacks elsewhere the whole maintenance effort issue is a huge issue that we're going to have to deal with if we don't vote for the tax hike but there's still three point one seven million dollars that's it's a big chunk of money thank you thank you alderman her vice president rent flesh alderman bowers thank you well someone please explain to me I think I read in the paper where the tax rate if we left everything the way it is now would stay the same but we would generate two hundred thousand dollars more did I read this wrong Alderman bowers that's in the budget that we just passed or not passed but the the amendments to the budget is that the tax rate stays the same right with the tax rate staying the same there is it actually adds two hundred thousand to the tax levy that was part of the amendments to the general fund so could we use that two hundred thousand that is part of the amendments that were just made to the general fund that is on your document that was provided by alderman Hammond so that's two hundred thousand been taken care of correct it's it's not been voted on yet as far as being passed but it was obligated in the amendment toward the general fund which will be passed or may be passed Wednesday all right be Alderperson Montemire please thank you mr. Mayor the library even with maintenance of effort the library is still taking hit there still will be furloughs and there will be layoffs and there were less purchases made even with maintenance of effort so it isn't as though maintenance of effort answers all the questions and now we have the whole whole library going again we still don't thank you all the person Montemire Alderman briefly I understand your concerns about the unemployed and the tax rate but I really think that if we took a look at how many unemployed people actually use the library for the books the research for jobs for their unemployment benefits and also at you know the books for the kids the movies that are free I really think you'd be surprised thanks thank you Alderman Racler any further discussion I have no lights here at the moment we have a motion on the floor regarding the library proposed by Alderman Lauren seconded by Alderman Racler to fund the library to maintenance of effort 302 thousand eight hundred and forty five dollars above the proposed executive budget any further discussion and to increase the tax levy by approximately twelve cents per thousand or twelve dollars per hundred thousand dollars for the for twenty eleven thank you I guess I would you know in looking at this it is a very difficult issue I would I would be more inclined to do something more in the middle if we're going to do anything at all as a council I look at option number four for example allows them to fund their new items at the 2010 still the furlough days but the amount needed to funds about a hundred and forty thousand dollars which does not put a larger burden on our already overburdened taxpayers again as we discussed earlier we're not going to be kicked out of Eastern shores in 2011 this gets us part of the way there funds the critical services we don't have to again there's no new items they'll still have the internet they'll still be all the services just have the furlough days so I guess I'd make a and I don't know so may throw something at me if I can't do this but I'll make an amendment I'd like to make an amendment that we accept or adapt number four hundred forty thousand five hundred dollars can ask all them in borne and raceler if they would accept the friendly amendment oh friendly you have to smile when you do it oh do I not I'm not winking no yeah council the other option would be to vote on this proposal and then if that doesn't fly then make another motion for a lesser amount I think that's probably the best I think that's probably a little cleaner if we can stick to that does anybody have any further discussion on the original proposal Alderman Rindflash we have Alderman Wongerman would you like to speak on that sir yeah please do I guess my comment would be to ask the council a question can we afford not to do this we're looking at the future is a future investment in this country this country whether you believe it or not as a war and we're in a struggle that's going to last for a long time can we afford not to have the very best compare the number of engineers at this country graduates every year with the number of engineers that come out of Japan and I think you'd fall on your you know what because it's a big big difference we need to have the very best if we're going to triumph in this war and make no mistake about it we are at war as much as we were in World War two I'm old enough to remember World War two very vividly this is a struggle we're really up against the wall with the rest of the world we cannot afford not to have the best I look at this as an investment I know there's people out there struggling to pay their taxes I know what that means I worked at a factory myself for many years and I was laid off and I know what that means not to have a paycheck coming in I understand that very very well but I think we cannot afford not to invest in the future thank you thank you Alderman Wagerman Alderman Bourne did you have anything no I was just going to mention that I agreed with Attorney McLean scenario that we should vote on this my motion and Alderman Racer second first and then see how that goes President Kittleson yes thank you mayor and and I too just to comment when I look at the number of people who spoke on the library issue here how important it is to so many and as Alderman Montemayor said when we watch the promise of Sheboygan County the library the lake it's all such a big part of drawing people here to our community so I think it's important that we do fund this maintenance of effort and a tax levy increase of twelve cents per thousand or equivalent is something I think that our citizens kind of would accept thank you thank you President Kittleson Vice President Rindflush thank you I don't know how that vote is going to go if it does not pass and I know there's some others options as well that I would also ask that if we're going to look at raising the tax levy then let's keep going let's raise it to bring the 198 for the police in the 107 for the public works they'll make it $24 or thereabouts per thousand but it doesn't make sense to me to to to meet maintenance effort while we're cutting elsewhere so if we're gonna do it then let's do it so if it fails that's gonna be my motion and it'll be only be $24 and all the apartments the main ones for me the police and then public works will be fully funded as well thank you Vice President Rindflush Alderman thank you Mayor I guess I'd be happier in voting to increase taxes if I knew the organization we were increasing it for was going to participate they've got over $400,000 in reserves they're not going to go away if we don't pass we don't pass this they've got money in reserve I'd rather see the joint partnership with the city and the library and using some of that money they have people up here saying all what was that an hour and a half the library is going to go away I thought wow we don't pass anything they might as well tear a library tear me down I don't think they tear me down when they got $400,000 in reserve okay so I quite honestly I'd like to be it have to be a partnership between both the library board and the city you should weigh in to be able to maintain that effort maintained at $300,000 thank you Alderman Heidelman we have any further discussion I have no lights on the board here okay now we we first I'll make it clear that this vote is not to pass the budget right okay this vote is to amend the proposed budget for the library fund it does not pass it a yes vote will to be to it'll be to decrease the funding to zero add the 2845 in order to cover Emily for 2011 which will then have a tax levy increase of 12 cents per thousand for the full amount of 302845 a yes vote would do that yes vote will vote to pass it as amended roll call please the amendment that's the amendment we're not passing the budget that's the amendment for whose idea was it to the 302 this is just the amendment of 302 to add that back in by using a tax levy of 12 cents per thousand I'm sorry okay Hannah yes Heidelman no cut no Kittleson aye Montemay or aye Rinflaich no racelor yes Samson no Vanderweel no Wongamang I born aye Bowers no Hammond no six eyes seven nose the amendment fails Alderman Hammond you had an alternative I did and again I don't want there to be any misconception I do not have any dislike for the library I think it is a valuable resource my wife uses it quite frequently I just think that we need to look at what the core services are and again the option number four if you will allows them to fund their new items and I'm presumably available other things we'll still have their furlough days but it only has a levy increase of a hundred and forty thousand dollars versus three hundred and two thousand dollars again sounds like a small amount but when it's coupled in top of the Sheboygan County increase the LTC increase and many others those small amount start the pile on top of each other and so I make a motion I'd make a motion that we accept or increase the levy a hundred forty thousand five hundred second you have a motion in a second to go with number four if I can have a clarification Alderman racelor all six cents yeah I can do the math what I'm wondering is funding of new items that's new materials I take it books etc but thanks for that math tip anyway okay under discussion Alderman racelor you're up okay we have Alderman Hammond once again actually if a director Winkle might be willing to come back up there we should just move you a chair up there actually there is one part of the wellness program that Alderman Kittleson was telling me earlier I need to partake and I was huffing and puffing pretty good coming up the steps just to kind of clarify what Alderman racelor put together it says the decrease he had mentioned you guys had worked together to work some of these things out but the decrease in funding reduction to a hundred and fifty nine to reinstate the funding for new items criminal by decreasing the funding reduction to a hundred and fifty nine thousand basically adding another hundred forty thousand what would that give you and what would that take away just add a little more detail to this if you wouldn't mind please okay let me take a look at this here I want to make sure I'm saying the right thing I think what that does is yes it's working off that two hundred thousand amount there in number two that includes furlough days and expenditure reductions but it's not adding the funding in that would eliminate the need for those five furlough days so it's as stated there would be five furlough days if when the library board receives this information it proceeds along the lines that it did when it was looking at a budget at the two hundred thousand dollar reduction level because the library board has a responsibility to determine how to expend the funds it would need to take action if this would pass in this form at meeting of November 24th it would need to take action at its December meeting but basically the intent would be that it would the library board would be able to fund the purchase of new acquisitions at the 2010 level and would need to save expenditure dollars by continuing with the five single furlough days that would have been in effect this year for example okay so what would the extra hundred thousand because I understand where the forty thousand hundred comes from that's the new books new items at at the 2010 what would that other hundred thousand dollars do well for example to meet the three hundred thousand expenditure reduction the library staff hours were changing from forty hours for FT for full-time employees to 38 that that wouldn't be necessary and that's what was read that was what was driving the reduction of public service hours so other than the five-day furlough that's a separate issue so by adding that extra hundred thousand or the forty thousand five hundred which again for the new items and a hundred thousand gets the employees back up to forty hours a week and would allow the library to not have to adjust its other than the five furlough days not have to adjust its public service hours in other words the library would be open longer than what was proposed here by funding that level yes that's them is a major distinction between the two hundred thousand dollar reduction scenario and the three hundred thousand there was no need to change the hours of service other than the five-day furlough on those on those furlough days sharing that's those are days that the library is actually closed on those furlough days correct yes you're right there yes for those five things I take it are they single days they were in blocks in one block in 2009 and in 2010 it's five single days spread throughout the calendar the next one is a day after Thanksgiving and that's the last one for the year it's a nice day not to work we thought we'd parallel the city on that city hall city hall there is a shot across those rules for the city I'm agreeing I just want to make sure you know again so did I yeah I just want to just kind of clarify it so the by increasing the levy a hundred and forty thousand five hundred would be able to maintain our funding for new items at the 2010 level staff would remain at 40 hours a week and the library hours would stay it would not be adjusted their style be the five furlough days which again would be wherever deemed appropriate you and your the board would determine what the best place to put those would be yes okay thank you okay thank you thank you Sharon thank your Alderman Hammond Alderman Bowers yes I have a question for you what I've often thought that the library opened too early morning but you open what eight or nine at nine o'clock nine o'clock what would the be if we took the hours from nine and open up let's say 10 or 11 because I noticed when I go there early in the morning it's mostly people my age reading the paper sleeping that's because they're up at five yeah right by then they got half their day in well you know I can answer that several ways one way is that people are standing outside waiting to get in at nine o'clock right you've probably seen them since you seem to go to the library early also yes the staff observes that older people yep retired people of the matter folks do like to use the library during the earlier hours that it's open but they also use it throughout the period of time the main thing is for the young children we look at different hours of service just as a matter of course but also during times of budgetary constraint and we've had a series of those times and so we've had continuing conversations with the youth services manager in fact more than one of them and each one of them the two that we've worked with in these situations it's has said that for the very young children the early morning hours is the ideal time for them to visit the library as well I guess maybe they get up early too like the retired folks so the concern is if you're cutting the morning hours you're affecting the ability of the very young children with their parents to use the library including the story times and that sort of thing that's offered to them well what I'm looking at is we're faced with a colder situation which we don't know which way it's going to go and I hope that they reach a settlement if they don't this is really going to affect this community and a $12 increase or a $6 increase in their taxes plus the school and the county but we're looking at quite an increase here so I was just wondering if we could still maintain the library and maybe cut a couple hours we might be able to pick up $100,000 that's basically what the $300,000 reduction was doing that's the main difference between the $200,000 reduction level and the $300,000 that's where we came in with closing at six on Tuesday and Thursday evening 6 p.m. it wasn't a change in the morning but it was a change in the evening hours okay so that was number six reducing hours number one that's number one that's actually included in number one in the in the $300,000 okay I see five furlough days okay so that that that was five furlough days so are there hours in there too furlough days is number two I may be looking at a different sheet sorry number one was furlough date and the reduction and reduction oh okay I'm sorry I've got a different sheet in front of me please excuse me okay so that was reducing hours okay all right thank you okay I I hope I address that to your satisfaction yes okay thank you Alderman Bowers and Sharon Alderman Samson thank you Mr. Mayor I just want to point out to the folks in TV land that that was certainly not us making light of a very difficult situation with the laughter but sometimes just laughing makes very tense situations go a little easier so just wanted to make sure that it's not looked upon is that we're taking this matter too lightly and the folks in TV land by this time of the night are probably watching TV okay I see no further lights in front of me would anybody like to comment on this Vice President Renflesh thank you your honor I guess I'm not seeing the full difference between well tax increases less we're still gonna deal with perhaps at least maintenance of efforts issued by changing well increasing the revenue but not to the full hundred three hundred thousand dollars so I still won't support it because ultimately still putting I'm not raising the tax levy to put cops tax levy for the library that's tax cops versus books that I don't think that's appropriate for us to do and again if we have passes that we're going to raise the tax levy for the library then I would say let's raise the tax levy and fully fund police department and the public works department as well which may double that the other option is and I was just thinking about being creative and sorry my phone is on because I'm using the calculator every quarter we get our water bills and on there there are certain items on the water bills fire protection I think it is sewer and so on that don't have anything to do with the water collections collected is it possible for us to fund the library through that's at a three point four million dollars I don't believe so I you cannot charge fees on a library I think that's statute if I'm not mistaken and if it would be on a water bill it would be a fee the libraries must be funded off the tax levy now I think it would be interesting for people to see my own that's my own knowledge but that's right it's a shame and I think you're probably right but it would be interesting to see that every quarter and some of that we mentioned before people could see exactly how much the library costs in every quarter and maybe it's a deal maybe it's not but people can decide that that would be nice to do on a lot of services the provides but Alderman born another question for Sharon oh you intensely waited till she sat down I just thought of it director Winkle and we go with the motion is on scenario number four right now we're going to decrease the funding reduction to one hundred and fifty nine thousand one hundred and fifty nine thousand five hundred rather than putting the amount needed of the one forty five hundred on the tax levy do you think your board would go along with taking that out of your was that the fund you talked about Alderman Hannah the undesignated undesignated do you rather than putting that on the levy do you think that we're kind of meeting a halfway that you would be able to take that one forty five hundred out of your undesignated fund well the library does not have any undesignated funds we were talking about them that when we were addressing Alderman Hannah's earlier question all of the funds that the library has available are reserved funds they're designated for certain purposes so there are no undesignated funds and the other thing I would share with you is that if the library were to do that in some way from from some source then this additional funding above the proposed reduction would not apply towards maintenance of effort so in 2012 if the maintenance of effort statutes remain the same there'd still be quite a ways to go for the city to reach maintenance of effort being a little bit of a whole there so that's a comment about that way of addressing the funding situation thank you Sharon Alderman born is there any further discussion okay the amendment before us right now states to decrease the funding reduction to a hundred and fifty nine thousand five hundred to reinstate the funding for new items current two thousand and ten level and still have furlough days and I vote would be to do that so an I vote will be to amend the proposed budget got it right that time roll call please height of men I can't no kiddleson I Montemay or I win flesh no racer I Samson no Vander wheel no Wongaman I born I powers I Hammond I Hanna I nine eyes for nose Alderman red flesh we have a motion to hold both documents until Wednesday's meeting second if I can have a little input from the council before we adjourn Wednesday's meeting it's going to be a long meeting it is presently scheduled for five o'clock or for seven o'clock rather it's scheduled for seven o'clock hoping at seven gives people time to get some stuff done in that we have a short meeting or do we would like to move it to five o'clock that's an option we can amend it for a short meeting we have a second for a short meeting I don't hear any input so I think we'll just keep it at seven o'clock and have a partially long meeting that's okay keep it at seven o'clock on Wednesday no no seven o'clock so it's already posted at seven o'clock we we won't I was thinking maybe five o'clock and that way people come straight from work I have a funny feeling there may be some discussion so do we have any action to take care so besides adjourns to move that forward okay we adjourn why is that meeting most we have a motion to adjourn in a second all in favor say aye opposed motion carries see you Wednesday