 Hello, Kubernetes steering. Oh my god, I'm so excited That's how like that's how much I've gotten out of the house number one But number two, I'm just like so excited to Get started on something that I've been putting off for this group in particular so It's like one of those like I got my new shovel out and I'm ready to Ready to dig that first Awesome. I finally have time after like all summer. So I'd save the bed, but I don't I Would just love to be able to leave the house Right. I'm eating my lunch right now by the way. I'm sorry. Oh This is the year of not apologizing anymore I'm just so hungry and like I am just the worst habits ever That's right. We're recording. I was like, oh, I'm not like at home with my friends right now Whatever I'm so sorry people that watch this. They're like, what welcome to our home everyone Watching this that's what I want to know, right? You're watching this Engage with us. Yeah, come join us next week not even like we also have a slack channel You can hang out with us in Now the only the only one watching us is some interns machine learning algorithm Where they're trying to like analyze something about people by crunching old meetings on YouTube So are we like a mechanical Turk like training right now? Well, I'm waiting for them to come up with the bot that attends meetings for you. I'll get so much more done No All right, I do that for internal meeting. Sure, but I like That's why I do open source I can see my friends even though I don't work at the same company um, so for the agenda like I Didn't want to like guilt trip people and like dig through what people said they're working on two months ago or whatever I'd rather talk about if people have Spoons or forks or cutlery to work on something now, and it's okay to say no and what that is Um Like I had time today, which was really exciting to finally open that PR. So I was super pumped Um, and if other people have things that they Have energy to work on we can talk about it if people are super burnt out you heard me I thought I was on you. I was like You I was just clapping. Yeah, I was like, yes, I Saw your energy. It was coming through Apologies, I did not mean to interrupt you. Um, no, that's fine I was just trying to avoid like sometimes I don't want to go to meetings because I said I would do things and then like life was like No, you're not carillon. You're not doing those things. No, but that's exactly what I did when I saw the PR I was like clapped like literally it was like real time Well, I'm definitely gonna start on right now for this hour On it the community management strategy piece This is like the advice that we would give to any project that would That's interested in the whole like well who takes care of my people and how do we do this element? So I'm gonna start with that and then I'm also gonna start on Recruiting contributors document Just some like high-level stuff There because there's a lot of resources and then also like all the stuff in our heads Um, but that's it for me. I feel very behind on both of those things I won't lie, especially because the container D team really needs the community management strategy piece Um, so that's my own personal deal trip there. Yeah Uh But yeah, we're getting started today Josh Um, I still have a list of to-dos from governance So I mainly just dialed in here to keep track of what was going on and contributed growth since There's a lot of crossover in the documentation and requirements so Yeah Yeah, I know that um They're not they weren't able to make it today Karen and Jennifer. I think we're working on the ladder. Um, But I haven't Haven't seen anything Um, Josh, did you talk about badges today? That was totally off-contact here by the way Yeah, if you want I still haven't done any looking into the um Um Annual assessment do diligence stuff to see what we could glean there because like I said originally someone else was going to do that I know and I was kind of hoping that like Bogdan could come school us on that part Because I feel like we're all kind of like batting in the dark. Um But we're all like this sounds great All right So Anyway, I'm starting to get off topic. That's just excites the hell out of me out of everything that we're doing on the governance I don't know why but when I saw that I was like so anyway, all right, if y'all don't mind I'm gonna I guess to old carolin. What about you outside of the the template? What are the some of the stuff that you're Interested in or you just you're just focusing on the template right now and getting that tightened up Um, so do you remember the good first issue guide that I wrote for kubernetes? Yeah, how to curate it um, so I've been working on that Improving it for how to make it maintainable for a maintainer because it asks a lot, right? And I kind of hope some improvements what I wanted to do is take Uh what I had there and kind of take some of the other things that jennifer and I have been working on for porter And so putting that up at the scene cf level um Somewhere um And just open up your and then I don't know like the google doc things I think it's stalled really easy because they get piled on with a lot of things that aren't immediately actionable Yes, and I think sometimes it's really hard to move forward because you're like you said something But I don't always know what to do with it Yes, and then the doc just kind of like in this weird limbo Um, so I want to be a pr girl I just like to open prs and if people have comments, I'd love for them to maybe um Make edits instead of comments for some things if we if we can I think that would help me a lot Yeah, I encourage people to do that Yeah, I was thinking a very similar because watching your experience and And josh's experience I was thinking the same thing of more like Well, let me pr the framework of the dock in So people get like where we're going to go with this And then like We all just kind of collaboratively fill in the holes together That's where that's kind of what I'm thinking to just based on like Because it's it also it's just a lot of information to review to So it's almost like, you know like giving somebody some large code piece. So it's like Because you want I like as I'm a reviewer like I want to make sure I'm giving you my whole time You know, so that's why it's like, oh, yeah, let me let me have an hour So yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I think that's a really good idea Yeah, I mean, I think I understood why we originally thought we wanted to do it that way. Yeah, of course, but um having gone through it um I know for me personally, it's not it's not working. It makes me feel really um Stuck, you know, so I'm gonna try something different Awesome. I hope people are okay with it. Yeah Yeah, because that's exactly what I was going to do today here is like kind of put the framework together for these docs and then Put a bunch of to-dos and stuff in there That that might be good for our crew as well Well, we don't have to keep talking if we just want to take the time back and then work on stuff We can hang out like If you want, I mean, that's why I'm here because I just want to see faces and work at the same time If that's what we'll do um, why did I have one question actually it's not related to contributor growth but for the um the abstract or whatever that What is that called The time slot we asked for for kubecon. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got submitted um I know we wanted to pre-record it, right? Or are we gonna do a live and there's nothing pre-recorded? I couldn't tell if there was going to be yeah We do not want to pre-record it whether or not we will get that option is another question entirely because It only occurred to me after I submitted it That what I submitted will work very poorly as a pre-recorded thing because What we need to do is we need to find out who's in the audience, right? I'm expecting a small audience for this Because the only appropriate audience are basically project leads for CNC of projects or projects that want to join CNCF So if we get Seven qualified audience members, I'll be pretty happy um But then it depends on who those seven are right because if we got seven people who are all from incubating projects Then they need to know a very different set of stuff than seven people who are from projects that are looking to apply for sandbox Yep So we're gonna end up having that conversation with CNCF because they're still using them Oh, what's the name of the platform in Toronto? Yeah, which makes it very hard to do anything that's not pre-recorded Oh, okay So So I'll talk to them about it. I guess the question is If for logistical reasons They absolutely need to have it pre-recorded Do we want to cancel it? My thing to you is like Could you do like a um Some kind of pre-recorded segment part and do what we did for steering where it was like live q&a Yeah, I mean, well, I guess the question is can they do a live q&a because the standard intrado platform is All the questions are asked on intrado chat Which doesn't really support much in the way of interaction Yeah Well, I mean I I mean I could just take the role then of just like Feeding the questions somewhere else for y'all like I get just I don't know I could be your question hustler I don't know whatever. Oh When I did cube con europe A lot of people ask questions in slack and then we just repeated them on camera During the live q&a They were coming in through multiple channels Like whatever we could we could make it work. It's just a Would it be optimal situation? How about that? Whatever you need me to do. Yeah Well, honestly, I mean in that case if we have to pre-record something what I would envision is like a five to seven minute thing On you know, here are all the things your project needs to have at the various maturity levels And then you immediately cut over to the q&a of okay, so we're here to help you get those things. Yeah The um Well, plus we want to put the list of other things that are a good idea to have even if they're not absolute requirements The um because like it's not I don't think it's a requirement to have a contributor ladder But if your project is big enough to have multiple levels of contributor then you ought to have it the um so Um, I think it's worth trying. Let's let's just see if we can make it work. You know, um I want to know if people show up Mm-hmm Yeah, I mean that's honestly my biggest worry my biggest worry is we get nobody at all Or we only get people who are basically wholly unqualified You know like oh, well, I'm not really affiliated with any project, but Honestly, I wait I'm I'm gonna bet let's I'm gonna bet a dollar. It is tuesday at 2 15 p.m I'm gonna bet a dollar that at least one person from an open source project shows up that isn't even cnc Oh, yeah, totally That's okay I'm fine with that That's the that's the one bet that I have I'm gonna put in that one I'm happy to talk to anybody about anything, but we'll just prioritize what's relevant to the talk at hand. Yeah, you know That's fine. And I think also I let's not be afraid to redirect people to the right thing I mean, we have so many different forums for talking to people who are interested about engaging with the community That the fact that they show up means they're interested Let's just find the right way to like keep them talking to us in some appropriate fashion That's all I care about But I rather not just like say it's not gonna work and be like oh and try to let's just give up Yeah, I'd love to find these people and engage with them. Yeah Okay, I'm having a good day today. So I'm being optimistic. Who knows what I'll say tomorrow, but let's say yes today Okay Just let me get myself in trouble. Okay. Can I ask you something on a completely different topic? Of course Um for governance. I'm currently working on the section of that sort of a summary of Here are all the bits of paperwork That your project needs to have in a general sense Yeah, and I wanted to find out which ones of these somebody in contributor growth was working on So I can just stub those out and say link to link to other document here. Sure Um presumably general contribution process would be one of those That would be either in templates directory or general instruction When you say general contribution process right now the contributing guide has um Um The pull across lifecycle. This is like what it looks like when But it doesn't have it. It's different for a project Right. So we have a process that walks people through how to generate that. Yes. No, that's what I'm talking about That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah the document that has things like, you know We expect all PRs to be squash commits You know those sorts of things. Yeah the um, you know The um, you need to sign a CLA those that sort of information that's in the contributing PR that's in the agenda. Okay Um project communications. I can link it. Okay I'm planning on doing the um, I'm planning on it Uh, community kate. Oh, excuse me. Hold on. Let me let me swallow first communications.md template um I was going to do one of those as well and we'll obviously collaborate with anyone. Um Is that what you mean by that or did you mean something else? For communications. Yeah No, I just um What I have now is you need to have some place that tells people When your meetings are and what your official channels. Yep. Well, okay We'll put it put like a put like a little placeholder link in there that says Like template link yeah We we made the assumption for when I wrote that Contributing guide that it was somewhere on the read me and we just kind of like hand-waved If there's an official like it's always going to be an x document that'd be helpful because then we can just link to something called, you know comms.md or whatever it is. Okay Um, so we already have leadership selection Which Dawn did Um contributor promotion is contributor ladder. Um, which you guys have um Um, this is getting into sort of steadily more advanced paperwork depending on the maturity and size of the project. Yeah, um release process That would be helpful. Honestly. Um Yeah I feel it and I feel it because I feel like most engineers always want to mold it into their engineering work, which is fine Honestly, I mean, that's what they know, right? Um Yeah But like for me like a best practices and like a who who who can guide you and like I think that would be very helpful. Honestly. Yeah, okay. So that's one that we need to generate um Yeah, and one one of the I mean honestly my main point and that is whatever your release process is it should be written down Yep, which is for two reasons. One is for managing expectations And the second reason is You know people leave And I cannot tell you the number of projects I have been on where You know release x was delayed for six months because nobody knew how to build the packages so Yeah, do you want that to be under contributor growth? There's just one of the template things we had I uh, yeah, um The um, I don't have strong opinions. I mean, yeah, eventually I I mean, I think the template should be the templates the templates aren't really Contributor growth is writing more of the templates, but the templates aren't like a specific working group. You follow me Yep, that's fine because like we're going to be writing templates for these purely governance things like leadership selection um the um so um But also I want for each one of these I want some narrative and a template if you follow me Right and the narrative said things like this is why you need this document Right or this is why you need this template, right? And or in the case of some of these more advanced things. This is how big you are when you need this um the um because um so some of them like I project trademark advice Really, you only care about if your project has reached the point of getting commercial adoption um The um, that's the point where you have to assign somebody to work with the cncf on what your trademark policy is going to be and all those other things so um You just reminded me of something. Um You know, it would be a really interesting tie into that. Um Because a lot of projects just still don't even understand the cncf services So I'm almost even wondering if In some of the templates we could indicate Some of the services, you know what I mean where it's like Oh reach out to cncf for xyz thing. You know what I mean like a mediator. Um I don't know Yeah, I don't know how that would go into a template. I'm planning to put this in a lot of the narrative, right? Oh, right. I'm just like Because like a template could be like You know one step talk to cncf about xyz thing, you know, they can help you with this You know number two, you know do xy like that kind of thing So I think that's where people get lost with the like Where cncf can come in because they can actually come in everywhere it seems like in like But in weird ways and like they'll only do so much and like I mean and I don't mean this in any negative way by the way by recording um So I I guess that's just what I hear a lot of Oh, I'm going through the onboarding process right now Yep, and like so Amy made me an issue This seems to be pretty standard And she goes through like pretty exhaustively like everything that needs to happen All the documents how trademark works. What are all the services that cncf offers? How does that sound new and awesome? so, yeah, and so it's like I mean obviously after Our sig has created more content. We'll be more involved in this and it'll restart referencing our templates but I don't know like this this is actually being incredibly helpful Yeah, and understand what projects are and what they can offer and like I already have paid netlify and a whole bunch of other things happening for me Oh, nice really fast. I mean it's been a week um I don't know. So I do you think we need more things to talk about like the cncf for No, I'm just saying like in areas where we can highlight or should highlight like we can like Even in like, you know, the like the recruiting contributors doc like People don't know that, you know, they'll pay for certain like services or or whatnot Or even contractors in certain cases. So it's just kind of like Just inform in them of hey talk to you know, don't forget to talk to you. You know, Amy or your cncf rep um About what they could do for you or something like that. That's all um Nothing like Nothing like programmatically or anything like that Do we want to put that maybe in the um Like one of our advisory things not in the template but in the advisory like, uh Guided stocks maybe that just talk about like if you haven't onboarded in a while Or you work part of the onboarding and now you're a maintainer He has a refresher course I I think that actually makes a lot of sense because like I'm planning to put the things into the individual sections where they make sense But it would be super useful to also have Hey, here's this list of things that cncf does Yeah, you know, and here's a link to the current Course on cncf services Yeah, this is this is the magical page. I love this page. Yeah so and well hilarious enough is The older projects Didn't get that. So it's like Like even like helm crew and stuff like that. Like this is all so new. So that's why I'm like Because then I feel like some of those folks are going to read this Um, like read this documentation. So that's why it's cool if it's like, hey, by the way This is also now like a service of cncf or something Like where we can I'm not saying and I'm not saying that we're pushing that It's just if there's if there's ever any point in like our templates or whatever where we can like say Hey, there's extra hands for you. I just think we should do it. That's all Especially with the ambiguous stuff I'm just talking as I write Okay I'm a little unsure where to put that you want me to make an issue for the sleepy No, yeah, it would it would go whenever our top level advisory folder is um Do we know yet where stuff is going to go once it's approved material? Uh in the project template repo if it's uh a template what about narrative stuff? Um, I guess that would be our repo Yeah, I guess it or I was going to say or it could still go in there under like a narrative under a like a guidelines folder um guidelines and So the the template repo is supposed to be like Porter or somebody who's like brand new Wants to make something that's destined for the cncf or they just want to follow cncf Recommended guidelines, right? They could clone this repo And hopefully not be deleting a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't belong in their repo going forward, right? They shouldn't be carrying wrong copies of our docs essentially So the templates make sense they edit and there's there's forever, right? Like the contributing guide the governance the ladder owner Court owners owners files all that kind of stuff But like our guidance docs That they're not going to edit and have nothing to do with their project and it's really just our content I would really recommend we keep it in our repo I Yeah, well, so you know what I should take this to the general contributor strategy meeting because um I kind of feel like there needs to be an approval process Because a lot of these guidance docs are kind of works in progress and At least within governance. We're about to get into guidance docs that have to do With cncf requirements Yeah, and those really need to be approved by someone on the toc before projects start taking them as guidance um But but I'll I'll add that to the agenda the next general contrib set meeting because I don't know enough people I guess it'll be better when we have some examples to Play with Like I guess is the I guess is the governance doc ready for like people at toc to give blessings kind of deal No, we've we've we actually have not touched the requirements stuff yet. All right. Um, I guess like let's just see what it looks like Like what one looks like live in action That's my take anyway Don't you have a draft? You know that draft folder, right? Yeah, we have well we have drafts of some things, but there are actually google docs right now Oh, no, you have a folder in our repo called draft Yeah, I don't think there's anything in it though because everything's in the google docs Okay, the um, I always kind of expected we would we would indicate to people that stuff in a draft folder in our repo Oh, and then and then just move it into a Yeah, just move it into the requirements folder when it's not a draft anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I would actually help us with the whole idea of um You know what carolin saying of just pr and iterate if we could just pr it into a draft folder because then the intention is clearly a draft And then it would just like the pr would land and then I could you know, then we could collaborate on it. I don't know Uh, yeah, and then when we're ready for something really official that Matters when we're trying to represent it as these are the requirements We can do a pr that essentially just moves the file and then we can get what we need to put a green check mark on it That sounds like a good idea Um, because then it's then our prs can move a lot faster too Yeah, yeah Because then it could just be like one reviewer and it would be like, okay cool. This could go in the drafts, you know Just making that issue about uh catching people up want the scenes you have to help with from people who missed The latest onboarding materials Josh, was that all the content you want to run past us is who's who's working on which? Yeah Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that the things that I thought were going to come out of contributor growth were in fact Coming out of contributor growth. So Okay I added the release management to my content tracking issue Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. I'll put that down as yours then. Okay. Yeah Yeah, and we've got a couple other like the project trademark interface and then also conformance requirements Because if the project starts participating in conformance testing with the cncf somebody from the project side needs to handle that Um, so and if there's multiple Companies sponsoring the project and they need to have some sort of governance process for that Yeah, makes sense. It can get contentious as I know in fact having spent This morning in a meeting specifically on that topic that ran an hour over time. So It's fun to be going through this process right now as we speak And definitely seeing how this all really happens Yeah, well, I've ended up adding a lot of these things because I've been going through this with projects and seeing all the bits That I'm having to write on a one-off basis for all these projects and I'm like Okay, I have to write a governance.md file for my project And I was I immediately went to our template structure. You're like, do we have one yet? No the um Yeah, sorry. We just we started on the advice end of things Yeah, and have been getting that knocked out rather than than on the template end of things and the governance The governance template is going to be complicated because basically We're going to have like six different ones for the six major sort of governance structures um Because there's no way to genericize it between one project that might be You know the most common type which is what we call a foundry leader Where the people who created the project are also the current leadership? Yeah I you know all the way up to projects that have actual formal elections Yeah, well we decided to just write down what we do right now. Yeah, and then as a group Uh evaluate and improve um later So I'm gonna steal your your stuff once you're finished. It's basically what I decided when I realized I could take it right now Yeah, yeah Not steal be one of your first users of your template Okay, there you go Yeah, maybe maybe I'll skip to that because honestly It feels like a template would actually be easier to knock out for that Um as soon as you write one, I'll use it. Yeah Well, so I start with the only one there except for you people on the cncf Uh, every month every time all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If anything that's accelerated, um And they're asking people in sandbox to write a governance even though it's not required Yep Well, I'm in favor of that anyway, right because it helps with contrary it helps with contributors If nothing else, but even the contributors don't Give a fig about leadership They do want to know. Hey, who do I ping about reviewing my pr? That's in my contributing guide. Um, yeah, yeah No, I my my point was just that um It increases how many people are going to be looking for a governance template. Yeah So all I have Anyone else has something We had an equally short governance meeting this morning because people have been I'm nervous as soon as I hang up. I'm I'm going to stop writing this and then I'm going to go into some other hole So that's why I'm like, I'm staying on the line because I'm still writing in my hack md. You know Are we giving you like that study group vibe? Like As long as you're in the library with us, that's why I was so jones to come today I was like, I don't really have much of an update Like should I just not go and like, you know, put my tail behind my legs and then like I was like, no, you're gonna go and actually write something You're gonna go into the tension and get something done What we're not in a tension with a cool study group. We get keeps in the library. Come on That's good. That's good. I don't have any more though I have to I have to write my talk though because they want me to record it Let's talk Thursday. Um I have you heard of kubernetes virtual summit? No of it um, I don't know they They asked me to speak in it about whatever I wanted to and so I'm like, well, no one lets me talk about cnav and porter. So Okay I I'm like I'm writing the talk in a week Oh, this is the devops.com people. Yeah, it is I'm really surprised nobody hit me up about this because Josh is like, I'm a celebrity No, no, no, it's more it's It's because red hat advertises with devops.com. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I'm that's why I'm surprised nobody hit me up about it Um Yeah, I don't know. I mean to get some newer conference. Um, I think did they start last year? I want to say um I don't know but I was excited to get a chance to do this talk because I submitted it a couple times to You know kubekan, but I mean There's so many talks, right? Um, oh, but this would have been the year to submit We we had like we had literally a third the number of submissions for kubekan november We had to san diego Why are you not in either of my tracks? Oh, okay. I don't know. I just couldn't get motivated to submit I still honestly even though we I have even more to talk about I still in my head. I'm like Yeah, it's all cloudy I actually have not submitted any non-maintainer sessions because um, you know, one of my various jobs for red hat is shepherding all of the red hatter submissions And so by the time I'm done with that, I'm like, I don't want to look at another talk proposal. I absolutely don't Yeah Plus plus most likely I would submit in my own tracks Which means I then have to reject the talk Because you can't pick your own talk so Oh See I don't run a whole track. I just do like the pre-filter where I help rate stuff But I don't actually get to pick the final stock. So Yeah problem for me I've I've ended up with alternately performance and storage depending on the kubekan So I'm all over the place I do operability community app dev, you know I didn't see your talk at uh, the open source conference. Josh, how did it go? Oh, it was fun. Um, I need to find out if they put the videos for those up anywhere. Yeah The videos are up yet The um, and it was it was actually particularly good because I was back to back with um, henrik from my sql so The um No idea doesn't say anything About videos So I should ping somebody I mean, they were definitely struggling with technology. So it may just be that they have not put the videos up yet Did you pre-record your video or did you in which case right like if that's going to be stalled for some reason I can just put it up myself There you go The pre-recording thing is just so weird because you know It's weird to be a case of I'm used to like the night before the talk. I don't do anything because I'm rehearsing and um And now I'm like I did all that three weeks ago I'm just showing up for the q&a it's odd so the um They're having me record the talk in front of them So they'll have a little audience Yeah, yeah See, that would be nice better without it Oh, see I do so much better with an audience like one of the things they were like Um, you know, can you do the little inset video thing? And I'm like, well, I really actually can't because I can't do this talk unless I get up and walk around Yeah, I might actually buy this little camera tracking thing To make this device for people who do sports that automatically tracks you Oh, yeah the um But if I got up, I would I would pace. I'm a big Mover when I get on the stage. I don't know if in my house, there's not a lot of place to walk See we've got um, you know, because I have that cordless headset, right? And then we've got Um, my office is down in what we call the rumpus room Which is the converted basement which is mostly one giant space So Oh, I've got like two no one foot neither direction. Yeah. Yeah So that's a lot more like being on a small stage behind the podium No, they want me to stand up. I'm just going to do like a little tight cheer. You know what I mean? Like So It'll be fun. It'll be a lot of energy in a very tight little Maryland square will be fun I always have to do that at conferences. I always have to talk to like if it's being Filmed I have to talk to the cameraman before then and find out where the edges of the film are because otherwise I will totally cross them Well, I'm like doing like gymnastics on the stage. I'm like crouching down and like moving around and I I don't know. I've got too much nervous energy I'm just being able to do workshops with visual aids I did one on postgres replication once that involved bungee cords playing cards and silly hats Oh That would have been fun to go to It was fun and I think it really helped people understand how it was supposed to work This is back when postgres replication was new and people really didn't understand the mechanism, right? and so the hats showed whether you were currently the primary or replica and the The bungee cords were network connections between the nodes and the playing cards were We are passing around disc blocks The um I got people out of their seats. So That's one of the hardest things to do is give people a talk and actually get out of their chair Yeah That's one of the things I always wonder about these online talks is okay. How many of the people who are logged in are actually listening to this And how not in another town? Yeah Yep The um I mean because you always know, I mean, you know when you're giving a talk live, right? You've got that certain crew who are in the back three rows reading their email And and they're only in your talk because they were in that room for the last talk and they don't want to be bothered to get up um the um, but With online, it's worse, right because somebody could have turned off the sound They could have put their headset down and gone to lunch. You wouldn't know It doesn't it doesn't affect you if they're doing that. So you can't let it I can't let that bother me, right? If they're streaming me and not listening Yeah, like it ultimately doesn't hurt me at all. You know, so Again, I'm always looking just to have a conversation with someone Like that's what these talks are for. So if I get someone to stick around and they'll chat with me afterwards or a week later they'll show up and they want to ask a question or try something out or like You know, whatever engage with you in some way then that made the talk worth it because it was fun You know That's why I do it. I just did to lure people in The um, oh that reminds me I do need to do a write up for um, uh, nancy about You know some small things that we could maybe do to improve things like It would be really useful if the moderator knew how many people we had in the audience Yeah, which is not something we actually know because um One of the talks I was at, you know, the answer was like five And um, which we found out during the q&a when there were no questions Yeah, yeah, and if I'd known that in advance, I would have actually ceded some questions Oh, definitely I went to uh dev ops a chicago and they ran it on a different platform. Did you go? or No, okay. They did they did a different platform. They did um, I was like on discord, I think um, so there was like breakout rooms For or channels or whatever for every single speaker um I really like that. It'd be nice if Kubecon could do that as well It was awkward when we wanted to chat in slack afterwards from for a talk Because like there is a channel in slack for every track And like the community track was getting overwhelmed. It was really hard to be like, no, I want to speak about this topic with people No one seemed to understand threads because slack and um It was hard to engage with people about the talk after the talk, you know what I mean And it worked better when there was pre-created little places where you could talk For an hour or two after the talk was over actually and still get the speaker and get other people who were who were keen to talk about I think we were talking about like community building For who was it dev ops days in brazil? It's faster than that speaker for like an hour um, you know and stuff like that Whereas you can't really have that sustained level of engagement with somebody even for like two minutes after the talk Because the net talk has started and and like three other talks finished in that track and everyone's talking over each other in slack um And you're all trying to share the same channel which is hard I've seen all kinds of different things because we had um for um Open source summit for linux foundation open source summit Um the community track channel ended up being its own thing Yeah, it ended up being like this running discussion from community managers about stuff that was going on and That was only 10 generally related to any of the talks that were being given Yeah Down to the point where a lot of the speakers ended up using threading in order to Keep the stuff for their talks separate um the um But in for kubcom the the the cncf slack channels were pretty dead um, and I think that's mostly because If a kubernetes or related You know geek wants to chat with people on slack. They already have their own slack exactly Oh my gosh y'all I forgot Um, let me share my screen with you. I want to get your take on this document uh And it's nothing that I was just talking about either The whole other half-baked document. Um, I have several of those these days. Um, I never thought I was going to be that person until I was so Um, here it is Share my screen This is a meta thing. I think that's okay share And I'll see this hack md. Yeah So this is what I was thinking about. I really think that cncf should rename sigs. Um, I think it's like a thorn and Um, I know naming is hard and so I think that's fine. I think it's okay to revisit words Um, I think that there are some better things here um Better being um Like cabinet advisory council working groups um So anyway That's obviously you're seeing this for the first time. So obviously you've never seen this. They might not even have a comment on it But it's something that I've been thinking about at like a meta level and I told Liz about it in a off comment That wasn't even like related in a hallway hallway convo kind of thing um Because like it seems like sigs have a hard time recruiting contributors. They always want to know what they own um Always think it's a kubernetes sig um Just General confusion I think And it's kind of like I know what they're trying to do right like a we know um But it's kind of like I look at the toc like the president of the united states even though it's multiple people But it's like that kind of president role and then each one of us is kind of like the cabinet because We're advising that council in our areas of specialty, right? um So does that make us the department of labor? Yes, it does Yeah, or the department of health and human services or the department of energy Depending on how you look at it Hey Paris, I know you don't have one of the most common names out there, which is committee. Was that on purpose? well, just I Because I didn't want to be I didn't want it to be double committees because so we've got technical oversight committee That was my only concern because then it would be because we technically report into them So then it would be parent reporting and a parent But I'll write I'll I'll write that as well Is this just for cncf? Yes Okay, this is just for cncf. Yeah This is a like my intention with this is a meta proposal to the toc to change their sakes um So instead of contributor strategy, we would either be Like uh, we would be the advisory council for governance and contributor strategy We would be the governance and contributor strategy working group Or we would be the the governance and contributor strategy committee Or the governance and contributor strategy cabinet um Something that indicates to other contributors that these people these bodies are doing advisory work Instead of like, you know, the actual operational work right no, um, I feel like it provides more of a purpose and a Mission whereas like sig and other projects always refers to sort of like A shared ownership and common and commonality around this one thing that you're going to get work done in We're sure that's us, but we're also more of like Consulting and advising and like giving our experience, which is more of like advisory even though we're like doing more too Obviously, we're making things But that's the the artifacts that we're making are still like advisory right, so And I know some of the other cnc f6 have had issues with like just recruiting people for their causes and like People think like you know in in the case of like a sick strategy People think it's sick strategy for kubernetes and then you own the security process for kubernetes for instance um So anyway, this is just something meta that has been literally in my folder for months. I'm not kidding you Months that I have yet to Ship that I also am like wow. I'm blocking myself at this point, but um This is if you all had and I just I just wanted to show it to you all because it's like if you have any thoughts or Anything I would love to hear them. Um That's really it I mean, I agree sig is confusing because we aren't quite a sig and no one knows what that means yes My you see my only problem with it is the fact that a bunch of them have the same name as kubernetes sigs And I cannot tell you the number of times I've had the conversation of sig networking So is that the kubernetes sig networking or the cnc f sig network? Yes There's a difference You always have to say cnc f sig That makes it even more of a mouthful. Yes, and that's why I like that's all part of it. That's why I mean it's just like There's we can we can make it a little bit better here now I like the idea of looking to What we use in other bodies like what we call it in government or Other areas because maybe there's a fit that people would Recognize in other domains I'm all ears That's why I went for committee. I guess I just wanted to work into the team Would you say caroline? I'm sorry. I said that's why I suggested committee before I thought that we report into the toc Yeah That's technically our governance because like our first and foremost is to like help them figure things out ultimately I'm advisory council is a good name though I think that was on your list I would say that when I've invited people to contribute to this with me it has People's hesitation has had less to do with the name sigbo and and more to do with People are interested to contribute to kubernetes because they perceive of value to like Their resume and network to be associated with kubernetes that they don't feel They get just being associated with cncf Yeah Well, I guess it's more of a sell of like Well, you would be You would have multiple Project names on your resume of projects that you would help versus It's just one but trust me of all people. I understand that need as well. So I like trying to tap their inner Desire to control things It includes kubernetes But yeah, sometimes I don't I don't know how much the name has to do with the numbers of how many people actually end up being involved Is all that was the point of my comment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if the name really correlates to The numbers really Look at us using the whole hour Yay And I actually like have the start of two docs and I think like by the end of this week I'll be able to pr something into a draft Yay Awesome Thanks y'all. I miss hanging out in real life Definitely. Yeah Josh's Yeah Well, you know, like it's this friday is russia shunna and we're gonna have one person over Oh, I'll hang out with you on a zoom if you want to pop me open Well, actually It's no no Oh, no, but we're not we're not observant. So Okay, I'll say no internet. Okay. Yeah, but the problem is that we'll be eating like challah and stuff in front of you And you won't have any I'll live through. I'll live by All right, I'll talk to y'all soon