 Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and RedHash. Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Patrick Genizon, who is the member of the Technical Staff at Docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the Open Source community right now. It's very fashionable, very trendy. A lot of people are on the bandwagon. A lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. Hey, thanks, John and Stu. It's really good to be back on theCUBE. So you guys, Docker has been such a great company to follow, since the beginning of the birth of Docker to more of the transformation from dot cloud to Docker. And it's just a great team. We've really highly, a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing. There's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. I don't know, but it seems to be very hot. Industry loves it. Developers going crazy about it. Why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? So what we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers. We talked about it two years ago. It was very early and people were starting to use Docker and discovering containers. Today, they're really putting them in production and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they're using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises. And the rise of CNCF is tight to that. I think we're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. How are you guys feeling right now? Yeah, so Patrick, for a couple of years, it was like the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker. And sometimes people say, oh, Kubernetes is where the hotness is. Well, underneath that, there's containers and a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Kubernetes wave has grown. Sure, there was the kind of mesos, Docker swarm, Kubernetes war, if you will, there. But what has this meant for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers and give us the update on kind of Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into some of the Moby stuff too as we get into the interview. Sure, yeah, definitely. So that's a big question. So let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with developers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine or for their Mac or on Linux. They start containerizing their applications. What we see is more and more also enterprise developers modernizing existing applications by dockerizing them. And then the next step is they want to put that into production. And for that, you need a whole system. So at Docker, we have like two systems. We have Docker C and Docker EE, our enterprise version that has role-based access control secrets and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system. And so Kubernetes, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have SwarmKit. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you're using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that is called InfraKit that we're using in our editions to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. So at DockerCon in April, we released a project called LinuxKit that helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container runtime. And so traditionally it's been Docker. Right now we refactored the Docker code base to extract a core runtime component that's called ContainerD that we donated to CNCF. So ContainerD right now is nearing 1.0 beta. So it will be 1.0 pretty soon. And then on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. So Docker EE comes with its own orchestration based on Swarm. Kubernetes is another orchestration choice that lots of people like. And Kubernetes behind the scenes is using Docker. And right now we are working very closely with the Kubernetes community to implement CRI ContainerD. So CRI is the container runtime interface. In Kubernetes that lets you plug different engines to plug ContainerD in the place of Docker in there. Yeah, there's a lot of pieces in here. We had some interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative or OCI. Which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. So what container format seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. Right, from the Kubernetes community, I heard loud and clear they're like, we've got ContainerD. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy, it's open source, we're going. We were at DockerCon when you announced Moby, which is kind of open source. And I think it felt like we were still kind of figuring out all those pieces. Maybe give us the update as to, Moby you're talking here at the Open Source Show. You talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions. But part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Moby. And the company Docker versus the project, you kind of tease those apart a little bit, right? Yes, exactly. That's what I came here at the Open Source Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Moby project. So what we announced back in April is the launch of the Moby project, which is the end of a two-year refactoring of the Docker code base into different components. So all these components of the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker code base so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. And Moby is three things. It's an Open Source project where people can collaborate to build container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our component into what we call Moby Core, which is the upstream of the Docker product. And then it's also a set of lots of components like a container D, Linux, Git, Infraket, Notary and all the projects I talked about. One of the things we started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these component projects to CNCF. So container D is already part of CNCF now. Recently this summer we proposed Infraket and they think it's a little bit too early for donation because they want to see other different projects in there. And right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary. So there's an active discussion in there. And I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is a component that we're using for Docker content trust. And we think that this could be used in lots of different cloud-native systems. So it really has its place into the CNCF system. So identity component for the container management or what specifically is that going to address? So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker content trust to make sure that you can trust the images that you built. Assign signatures to them, be able to revoke all these signatures, all the kind of features that our enterprise customers love in Docker. It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter. He's verified, I'm not. So. I'll go to Docker for my trust. No, seriously, but this is important because now this is a stamp of approval if you will that the community can look to. Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker and now people building other container systems will be able to use it. And so MUBI saw a lot of traction for its different projects. Some of them are going to CNCF. Some of them are growing by themselves. And on the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker CE and Docker EE. We had a 17.06 launch of Docker EE recently with a lot of new role-based access control controls for enterprises who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. All right, so take us through kind of personal question. You just had a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up with people calling in? Did everyone fly in? I think Alexi Richardson was the only one. There may be two people on the phone. Was Sam Ramje there? Sam was not there either, but Aparna was standing for him. So the room was full. And to me, it's really an impressive achievement. Two years after we helped start the CNCF, the first meetings were just 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation. And today, maybe we're 20 or 30 people around the table and everybody was- Well, even before that Google meeting, we were covering the KubeCon Kubernetes movement early on from your event. So I think out of DockerCon and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there still, presently creation. Then it became the CNCF when they decided, hey, why don't we take the Cloud Native Foundation? So it's interesting to be seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of inorganically developing group. Well, it's really built, built that they will come. This was a realization. It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together, to show customers where this container-based systems were going in terms of architecture. What were the factors beside it? I mean, obviously Docker was a big driver. You guys were unnotable. You should get the credit for really pioneering the space. But what was the drivers for this coalescing and this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF? What were the key drivers in your mind? Obviously containers is one. What were the other ones? To me, containers is a big one because when you're starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that and how you're architecting things together. And there were lots of questions about how do you do load balancing in that kind of system? How do you do monitoring? How do you do tracing? And so the CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show interoperability between them. And so Docker is part of that, Mesos is part of that, as well as Kubernetes. And so there's a big interoperability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. What's CI? Oh, sorry, Continuous Integration. Okay, got it, yeah. So there's a continuous... Not conversion infrastructure, it does do and I, what I was saying. Oh, you're right, yeah. I know I get acronymed up, but Chris Anizic was talking yesterday about the graduation path. Still waiting to see something graduate from the process. Yeah. What's going to graduate first? And he bets, what's the betting? What's some of the betting going on? Do you guys actually make bets? And is there fantasy drafting going on? Or, you know, fantasy, yeah. I don't think that really matters. What matters is really adoption of the components. Hey, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the wood? What's next? What's going to graduate first? So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container D may graduate because it's kind of mature now. It's reaching 1.0 with a CRI Container D and soon integration in Docker. It may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which one would be first into a graduation process. Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. And Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature, what about some of the roadmap there from Docker and from the CNCF? Something like serverless. Containers, first generation are going to be important. We had some interviews this week talking about, well, today might be containers we'll see in the future we're serverless and open FAS, things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us kind of the Docker and the CNCF view on that? Sure. So let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what cloud native means for storage. For example, with a CSI initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface. And then there's a working group for CI, so which is about integrating all these projects together. But the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group and there we're trying to define what does a portable serverless stack looks like and at Docker we're naturally interested in this. Serverless is a beautiful thing. Yeah, and most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open FAS. All right, so I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless. I have a love-hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. But I'm in old school, so I kind of look at it differently. But the younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear, obvious thing. Was once a dream, but now it's becoming a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? I'd say there's initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the SaaS services from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. So for example, installing that on top of Docker platform, so that's what projects like Open FAS is doing. And right now I think we're really in the stage of discussions within CNCF of what a portable serverless layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy that on-prem, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there, and I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well. I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it with Google App Engine many years ago, and to me it's kind of a feeling of deja vu, we're kind of reinventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. You know the beautiful thing about being an old timer is we get to look back, and not so much to the young kids get off my lawn, kind of, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries, and we were just talking to Eileen, she's like, oh my low level class was C and my high level class was Python, I'm like, our low level class was machine code. And the high level wasn't even C yet, you know, I was like. Yeah. So yesterday at the party I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, that's exactly the feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers it really helped them. It's a beautiful thing right now, but if I was, I mean just think about the young guns that are coming up, this is a beautiful library of options now, I mean 90% of the code is leverageable, I mean that's like unbelievable, so it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering than code-based rather than just being very creative on the 10 to 20% of real Linux will proper they can bring to the table. Yeah, and I would add something, it's really about creating value as opposed to focusing on building infrastructure. So when we're getting at the stack and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises and that's what developers are about. Yeah, when you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and congratulations on all the success with CNCF. Certainly Docker you guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. I'm John Furrier live in Los Angeles, California for the open source summit North America coverage from theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.