 but it would be nice to think that there was less stuff in the world because I lived rather than because I died. And I think if we all aim for that, we can do it together, but we just all need to do it, you know, we all need to start. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Carp Strong Cast. I'm here with a good old mate of mine, Paul Curtin from the YouTube channel Hench Herbervor. So Paul was a nutritionist and a former personal trainer. He's now a vegan and animal rights YouTuber. How you going, Paul? Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for having me, Joey. As you know, I'm a huge fan of your work and it's an honor to be invited on. Thank you very much. I'm a huge fan of your work too, my brother. And I just wanted to, for the people who don't know who you are, what you do, let's start right at the beginning. Let's start, let's just say let's start early days, shall we, for everyone? Because a lot of people might not know where you come from, the struggles you've been through, the evolution that you've had. And I know a bit about it, but I just want everyone else to know about it too. So let's talk about early days before you were vegan and how this evolution started with you. Yeah, well, like yourself, Joey, as you know, I had a bit of a colorful past. Door work, drug dealing, you know, very, very negative lifestyle. You know, I ate more animals than anyone because I thought we needed two to be big and strong. And I thought, well, the more I eat, the bigger I'll get. And I went with that mentality. And, you know, and obviously now don't have sort of complete 180 really, you know? Okay, well, let's get into it. Let's get into some of the things that, you know, you saw or like, how did you get into being a doorman? Like, what was the driving force behind that? You know, what sort of area were you in? And well, basically, I was a really wimpy kid. And, you know, I didn't get it worse than as bad as some poor kids like bullying. But I had enough of it to know, like, I don't like this. And so I basically started studying many different martial arts, lifting weights. And then again, just out of fear of insecurity, or I started taking steroids, you know, get bigger and stronger. It's just out of fear, just trying to be like a hard target, the sort of person that people don't want to mess with. Just, you know, not because I was a hard man, because I didn't want to get hurt, you know, as simple as that. Yeah, so it sounds like the environment has shaped you and what can happen? Like, if you in this type of fear, and you don't feel, you know, you want to defend yourself, sometimes people go the complete other way. So they just overcompensate for that. Yes, that's exactly what I did. Overcompensate would be the phrase, yeah. How many years were you going through being a doorman and getting involved in the riff-raff doing all that? Like... Yeah, about 12 years, yeah. Well, that's a significant time. That's a long time, actually. That's a long enough time for you to develop maybe some psychological problems from that. And, you know, like obviously being in that world, always on your guard, always waiting for something to happen, that can cause a bit of anxiety. You can't go to a restaurant. I would have to sit with my back to the wall, so I can see, you know, no one can sneak up on me. And, you know, you constantly get in one with people all the time. And, you know, I've bumped into huge gangs of lads, where I had a problem with one of them, like, and I'm on my own. I was with a tiny little girl one day, like just a friend over this park, and just it was about a dozen of them. And one of them said, are you the doorman that smashed me up, like, a couple of weeks ago down that backfire exit in Icon? And, you know, they would have murdered me. They were so many of them. They would have murdered me. But just, sounds really brave now. But all I said was, well, now you'd be a lot more disfigured than that if that was me who'd done it to you. But really, what I meant was, please don't all, like, beat me up. Like, you're going to kill me. But luckily it was just enough that they didn't want to, you know, try it on, you know. Yeah, so it's all, it's a bit of a psychological game you have to play with people. And it's a lot of, like, you know, there might be a bit of bluffing there. They might, you know, you might, of course, you're willing to back it up as well. But like, explain how hard it is actually being a doorman at a popular nightclub, or, and all these different characters coming in, and you have to deal with all of them and sort things out. How tough is that on your emotional stay and your psychological state? Do you know at the time I didn't really realise, but it's just horrible. It's just constant stress. But at the time, you know, I thought I needed to go through this to make myself strong to, you know, not, you know, I always needed to stand up for myself and always be the big man. But, you know, some nights, like you're in a club and nothing happens all night, and you're really bored and you're tired. And in the last minute, it all goes off like a mass brawl, like you're nearly getting your face smashed in. But luckily, like you come away pretty unscathed, which is, you know, a touch word that's what happened for me. But then I've got to go home. Then I've got to think about trying to get to sleep. And my adrenaline's through the roof. Like, I just didn't sleep that night. Like, it's, and that's, that's just day to day life really sometimes. Crazy. Yeah. And I guess, like, say people in your particular bar that you're working at, they might not have seen the days and days before. And then they deal with you on one night. And they're like, wow, what's this guy is so coming at me? It's because you've, because in being under that type of pressure, it's like kind of like a police officer constantly have to deal with dangerous people. And they, there are a certain way to you. And you're like, why is this police officer such an asshole to me? Well, it's because you don't see the weeks and weeks before what he's had to deal with. Exactly. You just, you need to act like the bigger animal, basically, you know, and there's a phrase when ignorance is mutual confidence is king. And yeah, you do have to act like a bit of an a-hole. You have to. Yeah. And I suppose you can lose who you truly are in that world, you know, like you constantly building up these barriers and these walls and having these psychological battles with everyone and don't come at me because I'll come at you type of thing. So was that was the true good hearted hench down there below somewhere? Or did you completely lose him? I think so. I mean, my partner Gemma, she was with me three most of it and she says that I was, you know, that was there. But I guess I would hide it. I guess I would hide it, Will. Yeah, because that's a weakness, isn't it? And you don't want to show that in that type of world, do you? No, you can't afford to. You really can't. Yeah. Yeah. If they people see a chink in your armor, then they're not going to take you seriously at the door. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, you know. Yeah. So like, obviously, become with being a dormant, you're going to be mixing with different characters and go down further down the wrong track. Was there at any stage where you're like, Oh my God, this is I've hit rock bottom here. I don't want to do this anymore. Like, I know that there's probably a progression to that. But at some stage, there has to be some serious moment where you go, wow, or whether or whether multiple serious moments like there was for me. The catalyst actually was, it was all in my mind. It was a dream I had. It was a dream. Where I work, Prince of Wales, right? Real notorious, violent street. And at one particular bar, a man came at a dormant like three times. And the dormant shoved him back three times. At the third time, the guy fall over, cracked his head open on the pavement, sadly, and died. And he was on trial for manslaughter. And so this is on my mind. I'm thinking like this happens to me every night. I have to push people away to create a safe reactionary gap. So they can't just smash me in my face. And I just had this dream that I was standing at the Mercy nightclub where I worked. I dreamt that the policeman came up to me, slapped the cuffs on and said, that guy you hit last week, Paul, he's just died in hospital. And you come in with us. And I woke up and I didn't realize that it wasn't real. I thought that that had happened. My adrenaline was free the roof. And suddenly I realized, oh, now I'm in my bedroom. And that was it. I thought, what am I doing this for? Like this is stupid. Like, why am I doing it? Yeah. Wow. Seems like you had a bit of an epiphany moment there. Like that dream, like, what was that? Your highest self talking to you or something like that? Like, yeah, knowing what I know now. Yeah. That's probably how I put it. Just put things into perspective. He wants to be in a cell. You know, he wants to spend their life like not being able to do what you want. And, you know, there's no life is it? It's no life. And the probability of that happening is very high. Like, it's huge. It's huge. You're actually if you're half decent at fighting, you know, you need to be accurate. Like just a well placed punch on the jawline or whatever. The guy is unconscious. Then his whole body hits the floor and then his head hits the floor with that kind of whiplash effect. People die very, very regularly like that. I know. I've seen it even in Australia and it's not the punch that kills them. It's when they're unconscious and they hit their head without any resistance. Yeah. And I've had people that I know doing 10 years for manslaughter for one punch. And when you're in that world, the punches happen all the time daily. There's five a night, you know, there's people punching each other and head all the time, but it just takes that one unlucky scenario, which you're increasing the probability for happening. And you, you being at the door, you, you're greatly increasing that probability of happening. So it's a very wise decision from your inner higher self there. And not many people get that, that connection. So something about you that maybe there were bigger plans for you, Hench, and not inside a cell. I think so. Yeah. I really think so. I feel like, you know, I have a lot of regret. I did a lot of very horrible things, but I feel like having gone through that, you know, and I'd finished all that by then, but I became vegan. And, you know, I was lying in the gym, you know, to be like a bit of a tough guy and whatever. And one day I came to the gym and I said, well, I'm vegan now. And, you know, I didn't get any BS off of anyone. And I think it just gave me some authority. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think people must have thought, well, if that guy, like as manly as he is and as strong as he is, and as, you know, like self-confident and everything. If he's saying, like, we can be vegan and still be muscly, like, there must be something to it or, oh, they just didn't want to smack in the gobb. Not that we're like that anymore, Jeremy, of course. Yeah, no, definitely. Well, Hench, go on vegan and listen to Hench. Okay, no, don't get in his way. I'm actually glad he's vegan now. I don't have to deal with him at the door anymore. So let's talk about, you know, your vegan journey and, you know, was, and the things in your past that led you there and how the hell do you, someone like you, make a connection to, you know, non-human animals, when there would have had to be a big disconnect from human animals to be so high up in the world that you're in? Yeah. So I'll be honest, like, initially, I went vegan for the health reasons, my partner, Gemma, she was looking at nutrition for health because she has an autoimmune thyroid disease and she found out, like, about a whole-food plant-based diet and how it can prevent, treat and reverse diseases and, you know, I was looking at some of the data she was looking at and the China study, the thing that really sold it to me was there was a graph of most affluent countries on one side down to the poorest countries and then the green lines were percentage of whole plant-based foods. So on the Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, it was nearly 100% and down towards America was like 6% and then the red lines were percentage of deaths from cancer, heart disease and the affluent countries was, you know, right up there and then down to the left was actually nothing. So complete, inverse relationship. I was eating 500 grams of animal protein a day thinking like the more animals I eat, the bigger and, you know, the quicker I'll get, you know, I didn't even count plant protein, I probably had a really good whack of plant protein but I thought it didn't count. But just seeing this science, I thought, wow, I'm going to kill myself tomorrow. Like, I'm eating, I'm eating 500 grams of animal protein a day, like 42 pints of milk a week, 10 kilos of chicken, the steaks, the eggs, you know, the tuna, which I always hate it anyway. So I went vegan for health reasons or I should say I went whole-foods-plant-based for health reasons. And then it wasn't until a little while along, like several months, maybe even two years before I was exposed to the ethical side of things. I think accidentally, I just came across, I think it was on Gary Urofsky's site. You may know this, Joey, is there a video on his site where they're funneling cows down like a narrow sort of open corridor to the sort of house and they're like prodden and the cow is really thrashing, trying to turn around and you can see like the fear. Does that ring a bell? There was a movie called Unity, or was it Unity? And there's a scene where the cow... Yeah, that was in that movie also. Yeah, but I think I saw it on Gary's adapter website. But anyway, for the first time I saw the fear. That cow knew what was about to happen and she didn't want it and she was frantic and it devastated me. I was in pieces seeing that this intelligent sentient feeling being knew that her end was there and like it shocked me. I was in pieces and I felt, I felt so sorry for, you know, all the animals I'd ate when I didn't know you better. I couldn't, it hit me like a ton of bricks. So from there, so I would say I went whole fridge plant based for health reasons, but having seen just that, I mean it wasn't graphic. Well the cow was, no, obviously they used a cattle prodge, so that wasn't nice. But it was in, you know, visceral, blood and guts, but it didn't need to be. I could just see that the animal did not want that and she wanted freedom and yeah. And so I went whole fridge plant based for my health. I went vegan and became a voice for the animals just because I've done so much bad in my life, you know, again when I didn't know better. Well, hence it seems that what happens to animals affects you on a very deep level. I can see you're getting super emotional just talking about this cow getting led down the kill line. Have you cultivated this compassion or like from where you were? Like let's just take it back to you being the doorman, getting into all these fights and building up this tough exterior. Do you think if you saw that cow going down the kill line, that would have angered you and upset you just the same? I don't know. I'm going to guess it would have done. I'm going to guess it would. I'll be honest now, I'll tell you a story which I'm really ashamed of and I think it was to do with the amount of steroids I was doing quite honestly. I feel really embarrassed to say this, but you know, I think honesty and openness and vulnerability is important. And I was in such a steroid-addled place, I bought a steak and I always used to have my steak like well done because I didn't like to imagine it was an animal, I guess. I didn't want to see blood until I wanted to not think it was an animal, I suppose, but it was cooked wrong and it was a rear steak and I was cutting into it and the blood was coming out. And I'm really ashamed to say this, but I actually enjoyed it. It made me feel like good, like a big man. Like what's big about that? It's ridiculous, you know. It's disgusting. But I think that was just, perhaps I did so much steroids. I was doing like 30 times the amount that you produce naturally. So you're going to have some really bizarre messed up psychology, aren't you? Basically. Yeah, well testosterone especially, because testosterone, what is that? That's what basically makes us a male. So if you're increasing, you know, that hormone. Don't swear, Joey, on this podcast. Yeah, let's go for it. I will basically put it like if something moved, I either wanted to fight it or fuck it. That's the truth of it. Yeah, that's really embarrassing to say. Well, you know, I bet around that world too, mate, and everyone was on steroids in that world. And it's just like you're dealing with some rule, mate, they're like some lions out there. They're going to rip your face off or they're going for each other's girlfriends. And it's just an all for all. And, you know, the violence and the people have these, they just go completely, they lose it. They lose it so easily because they're at this high level of, you know, testosterone and like, they're looking at each other. Come on, come on. So it's really, it's a really dangerous environment to be in. And I'd have people that were on, that were taking, say, amphetamines, that were doing a no-carb diet, and they were on steroids and they were already a sociopath who was institutionalized. Now, this combination here is a hammer in the face for saying nothing. So it's like, I'm like, oh, God, I can't say anything around this guy. He's going to kill me. So I totally understand what that, what that psychology is like. Now, people who haven't been there will just be like, well, I don't understand that. Well, I just want you to try to put, like, think of a Hulk, the Incredible Hulk, when he's, this is what the testosterone can do to you and then coupled with drugs and a stressful environment and a bunch of idiots around starting shit and dangerous people around and all this drama. Like, that's the recipe for shit going down all the time. And like, I totally know where you're coming from there. And I wouldn't be, look, the thing is, when you say you're ashamed that you only ate the bloody steak, you know, made you feel this way. Do you think it was anything to do with the programming towards men about steak being manly? You know, and you think, wow, I must be like, yeah, this is it. This is what men do. They eat bloody steak or whatever. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. I've not talked about it before, but you're spot on, Joey. Yeah, you're just playing into that social stereotype BS. Yeah. Real men, do you know what I've really learned is real men stand up for what's right and for justice. And they're like you, they're not afraid of ridicule or attack. Like, you know, just out of insecurity, you know, we put on this front and I meet like, I'm a big dangerous like guy, but it's always out of insecurity. And if you're truly confident in yourself, you don't need to do all that. That's what I've learned. You know, well, hence you're a very vulnerable guy and you just start talking about that cow and just tearing out of your eyes. Do you think men don't want that to happen to them? That's why they avoided at all costs and just ridicule and go bacon though, because I don't want to feel like you feel because they're scared someone might attack them. Well, you know, I've been attacked enough times to know I don't need to really worry about that. And yeah, yes, but I think you hit the nail on the head. Yeah. And do you think like a lot of men don't actually realise they're doing it? Like it's just a subconscious like automatic thing. What is this phrase? I'm really fond of it. It's something like most people are a biological robot having predictable reactions to external stimuli. So, yeah, exactly that. Like they don't know that they're doing it. But that's so obvious. It just boggled the mind. That's crazy. And let's just go from like you saying about like not being afraid to be ridiculed. And like, we both know how hard it is to build up this tough exterior, this say this huge ego to do with the world that we're in. And you said 12 years. Now, I was involved with stuff from 14 to about, you know, 26, about 12 years as well. And, you know, you create a character. Like this is the character you've created to deal with that world. And when you leave that type of world and go vegan, you're basically breaking everything down and building it back up from the ground up. Can you explain that process? Because that's a big process. 12 years is a long time. I take really recall. It sort of feels like I've always been this like vegan, like positive, like advocate. So it feels like a totally different lifetime, like someone else's life. I can't really remember the interim, to be honest. I just sort of had this epiphany one day. I remember seeing as the Ed and he said something, I think it's a Tolstoy quote, while there are slaughterhouses, there will always be battlefields. And I thought that's a nice, that's a nice sort of sentiment, but I don't know whether that's true or not. But then just one day, I sort of applied it to me and I just thought, if I don't want to harm a chicken I never met. If someone's like rude or aggressive to me, and I'd finished working the doors then, so I wasn't in that dangerous sort of situation anymore. It's what if someone's rude to me, like probably they're having a bad day, so they're suffering, they're suffering and spilling over, they're not giving it to me. I can either like smash them in the face and then, you know, there's negative outcomes for them and potentially their family and potentially for me, if you know the police get involved or if it goes like really bad. And I just thought, can I just step out of my ego long enough, if I don't want to harm a chicken I've never met. Someone's rude to me, can I just step out of my ego long enough to not slap them, to not rear up at them, to know that they're suffering and to forgive them for that. And hopefully it doesn't like then pass on and just life is like a hundred times sweeter when you act in that way. Not always easy when you get constant trolls, etc. But by and large I manage it and just feel so much happier. So rather than reacting to external stimuli like a brown brain dead robot, it's breathing, taking a minute and responding. And the response could be that you just ignore it, like, or I'll say thank you for your perspective, but why don't you get in an argument and then I'll just leave it and I don't need other people to agree with every single thing I say and do. Like, it doesn't matter, does it? You know, as long as we're happy within ourselves what we're doing. Seems like you're a confident guy, it takes more confidence and more strength I feel to not, you know, act like that, you know. I know. We're told that as kids, aren't we? We're told that as kids and I never believed it. I never believed it. I thought, no, it's just because they're a wimp. But actually, you know, it is. There's a lot of wisdom in. Oh God, it's strength, trust me. Some people, God, and they, I think some people, there are a small percentage of people that actually deserve a whack in the head every now and then. But to have the strength to not act on that and go, you know what, they're suffering too. Like, they're going to walk into something, some calm it down the road. If they keep acting like this, they'll get their lesson. It doesn't have to come from me. That takes a lot of strength because, like 12 years of just reacting and, you know, boom, making sure that you weren't the victim and, you know, over compensating to going, have the strength and let them go. That takes a lot of evolution of self and letting go of your ego that you built up for a long time. So it didn't take that long. It was just really finding veganism. It really was. It was 90% just finding veganism and thinking of others rather than just thinking of myself. And then another little bit was, and I don't do it now. I don't make the time and I should as to the meditation, but meditation as well. Just being able to take yourself out of the moment, observe yourself in the situation and begin to respond rather than react. That's very helpful. And I don't do it enough. I really don't know how to meditate. Well, me too, I, you know, sometimes I'm getting in the thicker things and I stick a table out in a bad, bad area in the middle of the city and I've got people yelling at me, going to stab me and this and that. And I start getting revved up and I start thinking, okay, so, and then that's coming across in my, my conversation. And I'm like, well, I'm not really not as in control of this conversation as I could be because I'm not in control of my emotional state because I'm in a dangerous environment and my old traumas are coming up and I'm getting a little bit like, you know, getting ready to square up or something. But I'm trying to have a conversation and everyone's watching and I'm like, It's hard to concentrate at that point. Yeah, my hat's off to you, Joey. My hat is off to you. Yeah, it's a difficult situation to be in, especially when you think, well, the dangers that we've experienced, they do come back like that, that emotion, residual emotion comes back because you're like, well, this is how dealt with it back then. So it is a little bit hard to escape it completely, although you can like target it and work on it. And you said you use meditation and also like you're exercising a lot. You train every single day. You're very dedicated and you're doing all these martial arts and all those things. How big is what you do in terms of your exercise and weightlifting for your mental health? How big is that? Do you know, I don't really notice these days, but I do. I know years ago when I was, you know, in these dangerous situations, things like bag work and pad work and sparring, like they were invaluable. They helped sort of keep my equilibrium. Yeah, that used to be huge. But yeah, I'm not such an even keel nearly all the time now. I can't really, I can't really say, I can't really say. Yeah, seems like you've been doing it for that so long. It's just a normal feeling. And if you stopped doing it, that's when you kind of start noticing it. So let's go, let's go into like, how and why you started speaking up, you know, online, because that's when you're being exposed to a larger audience that takes a tougher sort of, you know, mental state to push that out there. So how did that start? Well, initially with the, it was with YouTube and quite simply, I was a PT. I was a vegan PT. And, you know, I would tell my clients, you know, what sorts of things to eat and where do you get your protein and bloody blah, but they, you know, they would never really take in and they keep asking me the same old thing over and over. So I thought, well, I'll just make a resource. I told of YouTube, I didn't really watch it that much at the time. But I thought I'll just make some resources on there for them and then they can go there. I had no plans whatsoever to be a YouTube. I never would have imagined I could be one because I was so like self-conscious, you know, as a lad, I did like a radio interview and I got all self-conscious and went bright red and didn't know what to say. And that kind of informed me into adulthood. Oh, you can't do like recordings and radio and TV, like, you know, you're self-conscious. And so I never had any plans of that being a thing, but just gradually exposure therapy, like when I woke the doors and I, because I was scared of fighting actually when I started working the doors, which is why I started because I was teaching martial arts and thinking, well, if I'm not been in fights and I can't pressure test it, or how can I speak with authority on self-protection if I'm not living it. Also, like looking at your channel, you've got a lot of health stuff on there and you're now, you're doing a lot of response videos too and you're dropping the animal rights truth bombs in there as well. You've got a real mixture there of like eating videos, training videos, diet recommendations, animal rights content, and you're doing these response videos as well. Now, you're very diverse in your approach in what you're doing. Is there a reason for that? Yeah, I'm making the sort of content that I want to make the kind of inspirational motivational educational stuff to inspire people to be vegan and to show them how to do it healthfully. But also, I'm very conscious that drama sales and so these type of videos very often don't do all that well. And then the minute I respond to, you know, like as a very age of Frank Tofano, Joe Rogan particularly, the larger, you know, the person that you're critiquing, the bigger the video blows up. So I see that as a sort of a means to an end. I don't really want to do that sort of content because I feel, although it's from a positive place that I want to help animals and people in the planet, I see it as sort of negative because it is like attacking. I try to do it in a as good a way as possible. And certainly when I first started, I did it in the wrong way and was quite sort of rude to the person. Again, that was from a place of knowing the game and want to create drama to get views. But then I saw now I don't need to attack the person. I need to attack the message, you know, I don't need to say like you're stupid. I need to say this message is stupid. And here's why here's 12 studies like proving otherwise, you know, so it's finding that balance. But obviously, someone does need to stand up to, you know, the X vegans who simply had a horrendous diet didn't take B12, did crazy extremes fast in, and then they blame veganism instead of their application or their poor application of the diet, you know, we just need to put people straight so they are informed and they know what's going on, you know. Yeah, I've watched your response videos. I love your response videos. You do have a good balance there. I think you're a bit hard on yourself because there's a lot harsher people out there than you. And I'd prefer to get hench yelling at me, then you know, some of the other people or Joey sometimes I can be a bit, but you know, this is like what you're doing is you really you found work that is consistent with your purpose. So if it's purpose driven, you're trying to find the best way to get that message out to people and YouTube is YouTube, you got to you got to play the game on there. If you don't, you get swallowed up and no one knows who you are. So I really appreciate you saying that. And that means a lot to me. And again, it is from a place of love rather than from a place of hate. Like what is one of the strangest excuses you've had because I've seen you responding to some of these carnivores and stuff. I've they've got some bizarre, very bizarre points of view. Like they making up certain nutrients, you know, very bizarre ethical arguments, weird character attacks they pull, they think every vegan has got crazy eyes and they're you know, they're dissolving in front of everyone and dying of deficiencies. The main thing that makes me laugh is when I get accused of being nutrient deficient and malnourished. And the guy, you know, in the avatar, the guy is either half my size or he's, you know, he doesn't want to show who he is. He's just a decapitated, you know, head on some shoulders and a blue background. Hensheba born malnourished. That's that's crazy that people will look at you and be so biased that they will still look at you and go, you're malnourished and you're a nutritionist and you're planning your diet and you've put up your chronometer and you're hitting all of your recommendations. And then when you ask someone like that, you go, Hey, like, so do you track your nutrients? And they go, No, well, how do you know that you're not deficient eating meat, dairy and eggs? I mean, deficiencies are rampant in all can be can happen in all diets trends. If you're not, if you don't plan them correctly. If we look at the data, I think James Wilkes bought this up, you know, the game changers director and the late producer and then the latest stats were vegans on average, because most vegans don't eat a healthful diet tends to be deficient in seven nutrients, omnivores nine nutrients. So on average, you know, an average omnivore is more nutritionally deficient than we are. Like, yeah, you can be deficient in all diets, right? There's some things that an omnivorous diet has that vegan diets don't have. What are those things? Because people like to talk about what vegan diets lack. This is what I really like to talk about. Like, yes, you can do a vegan diet poorly. But at least you can do a vegan diet. Well, what whole foods plant based supplement those couple of things. No one's dying of deficiencies. Everyone is dying of excesses, cholesterol, trans fats, sat fat. These are all found in meat. You know, choline, which there was a big rumpus about recently, some editorial wasn't even a nutritionist. And yes, vegan diets on average do have less choline. But actually, we don't know the RDA for choline. The RDA is just an average number based on a sick population. It's just an average of what most people get. And now there is plenty of choline in grains in legumes, the sort of things that should be staples. An excess of choline feeds pathogenic gut bacteria, what we call the bacteroid strains. And they eat the choline, they make trimethylamine. This oxidizes in the liver, creates trimethylamine oxide. It's known as the molecule from hell. So not only are we eating the free animals, trans fat, sat fat, cholesterol that cause atherosclerosis, the number one killer of humans, you know, every time we eat these foods, you know, our coronary arteries and all our blood vessels are getting constricted. Not only does it have those, but it also has the choline. Now choline exhilarates atherosclerotic deposition and it makes it harder for your body to clear cholesterol out of the blood stream. So if you want to die like as early as possible, you know, just eat more like eggs with like really high choline. Like choline is the last thing you want to be really emphasizing. So it's always been crazy to me, Hench, how like when you eat animal products, animal products are inherently cruel and abusive. And to eat them knowingly would mean that, you know, you're not showing much compassion and a bit cold hearted if you've seen the animal suffering and continue to eat these products. Isn't it crazy that the first thing that eating these products attacks is the human heart and the number one killer of human beings over everything, over anything in the world is heart disease. Isn't that like a crazy connection? It's like instant karma, isn't it? Well, sadly decades long karma because it takes a while to present, sadly, and people just don't know. I think there's a rule 40 over 40, 40% of males over 40 will get erectile dysfunction. We used to think it was psychosomatic. We now know it's the penile artery getting fed up with atherosclerosis because that artery is a lot smaller than your cornea artery. So men, if you're very, very lucky, your dick may stop working and that'll be awarding to you. You need to stop eating animals or that's going to happen to your heart next. Yeah, they call it the canary in the coalmine, don't they? The canary in the coalmine, the warning before, you know, the canary in the coalmine mines, you know, they used to bring like a canary in a cage down into the coalmine and then if the canary died, they, yeah, they knew that there was some type of poisonous gas. So the canary in the coalmine for heart disease is erectile dysfunction. If those arteries stop, start clogging up, you might, you know, atherosclerosis anywhere is atherosclerosis everywhere, isn't it? So many diseases that we think, oh, that's old age or whatever, like what we now know from our research, Joey, that it's atherosclerosis, like so that's heart disease in the brain that's stroke can be erectile dysfunction. More and more and more, we're finding out that a lot of the things that go wrong are because of atherosclerosis. When, so my eyesight is more than twice as strong was when I first went vegan. That story made the Daily Mail, and then I said that on my social media and just drives of other vegans said, meaty, meaty, when I went vegan, my eyesight like improved. And do you think that's got to do with the veins in your eyes and blood flow? Pillaries that feed the eyeballs. So, you know, if a big old artery, you know, can get fed up, well, these are going to be fed up a lot sooner. And nerves as well, I think, is it multiple sclerosis? Yeah, same thing. If the capillary speed of the nerves get fed now, oxygen nutrients not getting through, so many diseases, I think atherosclerosis, and I think we're going to discover more as time goes on. Now, do vegans have to be careful of heart disease? Yeah, it's the top killer of vegans also. So this is where I like to make the distinction. Whole Foods Plant Based or Whole Foods Vegan versus Vegan. Vegan tells me that you're a good person, that you actually put animals, you know, you think about them and you don't want to hurt them. But it tells me, it just tells me what you don't eat. It doesn't tell me, you know, you may be eating Oreos, you may be drinking beer, you may be eating donuts, crisps. That's going to have a much different health outcome than kale, quinoa and say berries, you know. Definitely. And Whole Foods Diet doesn't tell us what your philosophical belief towards animals is, either, you know, because you could still be, you could eat a Whole Foods Diet and you could be constantly buying leather, going to the circus, buying off dog breeders and, you know, doing all these external things that harm animals as well, because you don't have that moral principle. So I think it's good to distinguish between the diet and the philosophy. So you could go, okay, well, I eat a Whole Foods Plant-Based Diet but I'm a vegan by my philosophy. And if you don't mention that, you're just a vegan by your philosophy and, you know, you just eat whatever the moderate diet you eat. But yeah, there's saturated, fat-rich plant foods and, you know, you've got like palm oil and coconut oil and, you know, refined oils as well can damage the arteries. The worst ones, I look, you say palm oil, coconut oil, cocoa butter as well, so the fat inside cocoa beans, so chocolate, cocoa nibs, cocoa beans or cacao nibs, cacao beans. But cocoa powder or cacao powder, I think I've heard it said that it's the one processed food that's healthier than the Whole Food because they take out these long chain triglycerides but you are left with all the great minerals, not magnesium stuff like that. So if you want some chocolate, use cocoa powder or cacao powder in your cooking, black bean, brownies, chocolate data aid, chocolate, you know, plant-based milkshakes and things. You can still have it like energy balls but go with the powder rather than the whole bean or the nibs. Yeah. Yeah, if you're super concerned about your health and but if you want to go hard one night and go for chocolate, if it keeps you off the dairy chocolate, please go for the vegan chocolate. Yeah, like you say, Joey, the animals don't care as long as we're not eating them. So do you know what, I don't mind what people eat. I like to educate and I like to put it, give people the power, the knowledge to know, you know, so they can make an informed decision. Exactly. And if you want to live a long, healthy life to help the animals then I would definitely go more of the hench style of eating if that's what you're concerned with. For an activist or an advocate, oftentimes it's not the message but the messenger and if we're like, you know, terribly overweight or terribly, terribly underway or just, you know, sickly, you know, that's not a good example. So I would say to people if you are vegan, like you deserve a long, happy, healthy life because you're a good person and if you want to save animals perhaps it's just worth considering just from that perspective to be a better advocate, you know. I mean that's very shallow and it shouldn't be that way but sadly this is how people think. So sometimes the message is taken better if the messenger is credible. So like and many things fall under the category of credible but also like, you know, what's credible for one person might not be credible for another and what builds rapport with one person might not build rapport for another but being a good, strong, healthy example for a vegan or even as an animal rights activist definitely helps even if it's in their subconscious they see that which is why I got into training for a while there but I fell back off the wagon, I need to get back on that wagon. I hope you're going to sort that out after today's conversation young Jerry, I've got my eye on you. Yeah, I'm going to have to because it's really important for my mental health and you know, my physical health obviously falls under that category too. It just echoes throughout your mental health but you've been in good shape for a long time so you probably just, it's just the norm for you. Yeah, sure. Now, Hench from my point of view, you're like, you're going to reach more of the women as well but I think you're more a man's kind of guy, you know what I mean? Like and the men are the hardest to reach. I mean, the vegan movement is about 75% women. Yes. They're not harder to reach with this message. What is some of your advice for someone who's a guy watching, they're not yet vegan or they're worried about what their mates think and they're worried about caring for animals or, you know, the stigma that might come with that. What do you say to someone who is looking up to you for a bit of advice? I would say, man the hell up. Man the hell up. Are you a leader or a follower? The world will be predominantly vegan one day. I am convinced of it. I don't know how long it's going to take a while but it will be the overwhelming paradigm and do you want to be the 100th monkey? Do you want to be the last person who like makes the right choice, follows ahead or do you want to be one of the lead animals that breaks off and people are following you, you know? Man up. People do care what others think though, especially young men, don't they, Henchen? There's a lot of social pressure, peer pressure, you know, they're afraid of being ridiculed. So your message is if like, if what they're doing is right, they should have more strength of character to stand up for what's right because it's kind of, to stand up for what's right in a world full of ridicule makes you the stronger person. It takes more courage. The most manly thing I ever saw, so my friend Barney Du Plessis, he was the reigning Mr. Universe 2014. I met him in 2015, sorry he won 2014, met him in 2015, he's the reigning Mr. Universe and he said to me, we became training partners, he went vegan off of a chat we had, he became training partners and he said to me, I would be willing to die for a cause I believe and I thought, that's some big words, but that's words. And then I saw him about six months later, he was competing at the Pro Universe and we were in this huge auditorium. I was about the smallest guy in there. Everyone was a huge, you know, steroids monster and he's on stage and they've all competed and the judges are deliberating and it just took, they were struggling to form a decision and it was going on and on. So the emcee decided to do a little interview of all the bodybuilders, he went to him one by one, asked how the prep went, etc. In front of a huge auditorium full of huge meat-eating steroid monsters, my friend said, oh yeah well I went vegan for this prep, plant-based games, he said and he threw up like a V sign and there was six or seven little snickers and then there was some cheering and some clapping and I thought that was, excuse my French, that was fucking brave, that was, and I do believe that he would be willing to die for what he believed in because I don't think I would have had the balls at that point to have done that, that was a brave, brave thing. Very brave, very courageous to do that and especially in a setting like that. So I guess the message is to the younger guys is like, like just go for it mate, just stand up for what you're believing and if your mates aren't friends with you for that, like then maybe they're not the right people to be around anyway, like you're gonna find a new tribe and you're gonna find people that respect you for speaking the truth. Now no one really respects someone who follows the crowd and you know like really, like you know if you speak your truth and you don't give a shit what other people think about it, you know obviously there's still respect that should be had you know when kept in mind when you're doing it but if you don't give a shit and you speak your truth people are gonna be drawn to you, people are gonna say wow this guy's got courage and a backbone and not everyone, not everyone but don't worry about them but people are trust me and that's how it works, yeah? So hence boy thanks for coming on the show today, I really appreciate your time and thanks for all the work you do speaking up on your platform and you really have you know grown a lot over the years and you know very research-based, you get the animal message in there and your response videos are epic and thank you so much for coming on, I appreciate it a lot. Think about this, the world's in a big crisis right now, you know we've got all this stuff going with the coronavirus and everyone's sort of at their home and they're in a bit of fear and you know they might still be you know consuming animal products which are full of fear or they might be a little bit concerned about the future like there's a bunch of vegans that are at home as well and they might need a bit of motivation, there's all these things going on in the world like what can keep them going, what can you know what could inspire people to change their life right now? Like how do you navigate through your life? Like obviously you don't always use your mind, there's things that you do from your heart, you know what I mean? What I've really learned about life is to be really happy you need to live a life of purpose and there's no greater purpose than saving people's health, they can live a long happy healthy life, they can be around for their children, saving animals, you know I know we don't like to look at it but all the time animals are screaming for their lives you know and the planet is screwed, like if we don't change yesterday you know the planet's screwed and you know this COVID-19 it came about, don't believe all the BS, it came about because we mess with animals you know we wouldn't even have the common cold or flu now if it wasn't for domesticating animals back in the day 75% of zoonotic diseases you know come from messing with animals, we need to all go vegan for everyone's sake if you're struggling at home on your own just get some purpose do some training get yourself a little routine of cardio if you really overweight just start with some walking and build up you know if you're not done resistance train and do some press-ups do some pull-ups you know do some crunches develop a good body and just just try to put out positive whether you know just on social media just certain posts sharing meals sharing documentaries you know the the world hasn't got time for half measures and we need to do all that we can now if you you know if you want this world to carry on if you want to save animals don't just sit there all glum and depressed the answer to depression is to do something positive is to be altruistic think of others you know and be of service and so that's my my thing I've just found rather than trying to take from the world and being this fear based like individual trying to put others down and make myself feel good now I found by helping others up that makes you feel the best and altruism is really the nicest feeling and it would be nice to think that I ate a lot of animals but it would be nice to think that there were less there was less stuff in the world because I lived rather than because I died and I think if we all aim for that we can do it together but we just all need to do it you know we all need to start that was absolutely beautiful hench thanks so much mate you absolutely nailed that thanks so much for coming on mate and everyone go check out hench herbivores channel guys amazing he's a legend he's been through a lot in his life and he's sharing so much of the positive stuff he's really making a huge impact so thanks for existing hench you're a legend and keep up the good work joey cup strong right back at you brother all those things times 10 you're amazing and when this when this lockdown's over I want a big joey cuddle when I see you of course I've got one warmed up just for you mate all right brother okay