 We are very excited today is recovery day. And so, sir, please come and thank you for coming today. We are at the house you took this. I do know that, Chairman Peele, and I'm so grateful for you giving me a few minutes to talk about it. Oh, no, that is absolutely fine. And so, in terms of who we are, first of all, I want to point out the fact that ORCA will be testifying. I mean, we'll be taping. That's fine. I know ORCA. Oh, OK. That's fine. ORCA will be taping. And Brian, quickly, Joe, around the room, so you know that you're not going to be able to do it on your own for this day. Thank you. Welcome to Cole. It's represented from Wobblow, Mount Holly, and Trusberg. Carl Rosenquist. I represent the town of Georgia. Sandy Haas from Rochester. Also representing Bethel. Stockridge, you can see him. OK. The streets of San Fernando. Tom from McFawn. I represent Barry. My name is Theresa Wood from Watbury. I also represent Baltimore, Huntington, and Beale's Court. I'm Daniel. I also represent Belvingere, Johnson, Hyde Park, and Wolkhead. Oh, yes. I'm familiar with that territory. OK. Yeah. James Grant, Warwick, Fairfield, Fletcher, and Biggsfield. Kelly Paolo, Levin Derry, Weston, Wendall Stratton, and Jamaica. It's a pleasure to meet you all, and I'm Bob Purvis. And I'm the director of the Turning Point Center of Central Vermont in Barry. But most importantly, I'm a person in long-term recovery, which means, for me, that I haven't had to take a drink or a drug in 14 years and nine months. Best. Now, that is not a cross-line, but it's how we are taught to introduce ourselves to, in order in our advocacy role, to help reduce stigma. We do get into recovery. We do get healthy. We do become responsible citizens, and we do vote. Ha ha ha ha ha. You're going to have JoLinda LeClaire here this morning. And she's going to talk about, I guess, the last year, her report, but also probably a little bit about what she plans for this year. And she plans a lot of big stuff for us recovery centers. And we're hoping there will be a little bit of capacity, but only funny to go along with that. If we're going to double another recovery coach as in Vermont, that's going to put quite a burden on us, and one we will gladly take on. But we can use all the help we could get to build that capacity. I just want to say, if you make a few remarks in an aerobics you like, then I don't want to take too much time either. We have you here for 15 minutes. And that's terrific. But I would just point out, one thing that the opioid crisis has taught us is that addiction cuts across every demographic that you can possibly imagine. Addiction is a human problem. We're finally understanding this after all the years of the war on drugs. And a human problem is also a human services problem. And as you are well aware, the addiction issues are cutting across all of the departments and divisions in the agency of human services. And for example, for years now, we've had the Lung Center and also DCF send us young moms with kids who are addicted to opioids to get some recovery coaching. And we're working with Circle. We're trying to start a group for young moms or people who have experienced intimate violence to have a healthy relationships group, not to focus on the negative, but what kind of relationships should you be hoping for and looking for in life, not to repeat what's happened in the past. Those are a couple of examples. But I just want to mention a few things. There are two departments within the agency of human services that we do the most work with and who depend on us the most. One is the Department of Corrections. I noticed that there are two representatives who at least are partly in Rotland, they're Rotland County there. So you may be familiar with Tracy Hoppe, who is the director of the turning point there. She has done an incredible job with that turning point. And she's done a fair amount of work with the Marble Valley Correctional Facility. And that led her to apply for a grant and to partner with the foundation that is doing the leading work with recovery services with incarceration, which is a McShin Foundation. And so she got advice from them and she's partnered with them. And she's got this $300,000 grant. And so she is going to be revolutionizing essentially what recovery services for the incarcerated in Vermont. And this is huge. So we will all learn from her. But this is an area where recovery centers are really having an impact. And we're going to have more of an impact as time goes on. We also, through the Vermont Recovery Network, been working with Andy Ramisano. I keep hoping for another answer. Yeah, Ramisiano. Yes, Ramisiano. And I know Andy, but I always call her Andy. I don't use her last name. And she's wonderful. And she's been pioneering the training of recovery coaches among incarcerated men and women, and mostly in the North. And our recovery network has been working with her on that. And we're hoping to build a bridge between recovery coaches who are incarcerated, coaching other people who are incarcerated to bridging them to the outside so that they could partner with people who are on the outside and kind of relearn those living skills for being a law-abiding citizen again. So is that what's happening? Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt. No, I'm sorry. What's happening in Brooklyn? Well, Brooklyn is doing their own thing. They are much more intimately involved with the prison there. And you can talk to the warden there. They're really happy with what she's doing. And she goes in there. Recovery coaches have hours that they go in, certain days of the week. And inmates can sign up to be coached. And she also conducts groups there. And then when the individual leaves the correctional center, do they stay? They're staying in Brooklyn? Yes. That's the goal is to keep them connected with that coast they've been working with, and also to give them that warm handoff into the recovery center where they can get other kinds of support as well. OK. We hear a lot today about different types of professionals in the human services road being embedded within primary care offices. And so do you work with primary care staffs? And how does that relationship work? Well, in my area in central Vermont with the Central Vermont Medical Center and the medical practices that it owns, I guess, at this point, there are a number of counselors, LADACs, who have learned the opioid addiction issues and who were expert counselors during the training period with that grant, who are now embedded in some of the practices. And I know several of them. They are really terrific because what they can do is they can pick up on the person when they come into the practice and connect them with other resources. Like, she'll call me to connect somebody from that practice to turning point. And I will often, with somebody who's maybe looking for a primary physician, will have that person contact her to get a lead on what doctor might be available for them. And if they're into practice to collaborate so that the issues that person is facing don't end up causing problems for their ability to remain a patient in that practice. Because the biggest problem we had with the doctor's prescribing suboxone was that the people who are on suboxone are really not very stable. In the beginning, certainly. And they need a lot of support. And the genius of Vermont's treatment system is to provide a MAT team for every 100 patients so that the practice has teams going in there who are, they start off at the clinic, the hub clinic. And after they've been stabilized there, then they eventually are referred down to a primary doctor. But if they destabilize, the MAT team is there to support them and get them back into the clinic and get them re-stabilized. So there's a couple of different ways that the primary care physicians are connecting with treatment resources and recovery resources too. So just briefly, at my turning point, we are part of the treatment court team, the Washington County Adult Treatment Court team. Everybody who goes through the treatment court is required to attend a six workshop series that we put on called Making Recovery Easier. It's designed to introduce people to recovery programs, specifically the 12-step programs, where you make it larger into what is the recovery process and what kind of recovery programs are available. And we also provide recovery coaching. Anytime the case manager for treatment court identifies somebody who's not connecting, and that's really generally the case, they don't connect with recovery groups quickly. They can hook them up with a recovery coach who can be with them in either anchor while they start asking themselves the questions about what am I gonna do? This time goes on here. And so that's been worked out very well. We're in the third year of a three-year contract with them for the Treatment Court Enhancement Act project, rather, from SAMHSA. And I do know that this is true in other recovery centers and other parts of the state. They're working with their treatment court teams to support people. We also work with probation and parole routinely, and probation and parole agents will send people down to us and they'd ask us to confirm attendance in different programs. We will not talk about what they say or do there, but we will confirm attendance. And so they have a tool they can use to see that the people that they're supervising are getting some kind of exposure to the kind of recovery support that they need. We also work with the community justice centers and diversion with COSA teams. Now, I can't be on a COSA team with somebody who might come to Turning Point because it doesn't, you know, I can't have confidence yowling with that person. But we do, and in fact, I'm on the board of the Justice Center in Berry and we, and I do recommend people who are in long-term recovery to become part of COSA teams, which is really important because, you know, the way the COSA process works, it's really important to have somebody on a routine basis every week there who understands what that person is trying to do and to provide a little bit of guidance now then for them and to connect them with recovery resources. Not everyone may know COSA. Pardon me? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. COSA stands for Circus of Support and Accountability. And there's generally three volunteers plus a staff person who meet with an inmate. Well, an inmate comes out into the COSA program. They make, they enter into an agreement for one year to engage in all the services that they're recommended to engage in and that they do what they're supposed to do to get on their feet and get work and find a place to live and so forth. And some of us, the Justice Centers also have residential COSA. So they have apartments that they can rent to people coming out in COSA for a period of time until they can get their own place and have them be able to pay rent. But they meet weekly. There's a movie, new movie out coming home, Vessel Bryant did it. It's great. It's terrific. It gives you, that's a movie that I recommend you see because it'll give you a good flavor of how COSA works. And the fact that this is just a point in time. You know, the guy from Central Vermont who's in that movie, Jake, at the end of that movie, he wasn't in a really very good space. But after the movie was over, he came out again and he's now working full-time and he's supporting his wife and their child. So nobody makes it the first time. You know, eventually if they keep at it, they will get on the right track and that's happened with Jake. And the COSA team really is helpful because what it does, the COSA team serves to represent the community, to bring that person back into the community. You know, instead of just out here, you know, good luck. It's we're part of the community. We want you to become part of the community again and we're gonna be here with you every week and we're gonna take you to breakfast now and then take you to a show or something and we're gonna help you get there. So that's what COSA is. So Mr. Curtis, we have two minutes. So what would you like to leave us there? Okay, what I'd like to leave you with is that everybody comes asking for more money. I know that. We finally, after four years of level funding, got a little bit of an increase this year. To us, we're very grateful. But the fact is that all the different agencies are increasingly putting demands on our services and we haven't really been keeping up with that. You know, it's hard to keep up with that with our capacity. So we really, really would be grateful for a little bit of increase in our basic grant so we can enhance our capacity to serve all these different agencies that are now sending people to us. So that's my message and also to thank you because the legislature has been good to us and we appreciate the support that you've given us. And we'll appreciate any further support that we might have for us. So thank you very much for listening to me. Thank you. Thank you very much. And congratulations. Well, thank you. And thank you for the work that you do in Barry and the advocacy. Thank you. Thank you. Farm to school. Yep, Betsy, can you over here? Hi, Betsy, please. Today is recovery day, today is also farm to school day. And oftentimes, we are able to try to give groups that are coming into the state house that are related to issues of policy issues or topics that we are in this community. We try to give folks, even if we don't have it there in front of us, 15 minutes. Well, thank you. We can speak quickly. And I have a few handouts. Maybe I can pass around. Second one. So my name is Betsy Rosenbluth. I'm the project director of Vermont Feed, which is a partnership, a farm to school partnership with Sheldon Farms and the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont. And I coordinate the Vermont Farm to School Network, which has almost 500 members, teachers, educators, farmers, food service directors across the state, all advocating for healthier local food in school meals and food, farm and nutrition education. And first up, I just wanted to thank you for your support last year, expanding farm to school to more schools and early childhood programs. So it was just, what, a year or two ago that we passed the Rosa McLaughlin Farm to School Bill that updated the original legislation that expanded the program to early childhood programs. And so we have Beth Miller, who will be joining us from Marotland in a minute to speak after me, to talk about the difference that that expansion has made. The grants have gone to 105 schools and 39 early childhood programs already supporting farm to school. And I think unique in Vermont is the program also integrates food access into farm to school. And so 76 schools now have universal free breakfast and lunch, which really changes the culture of the school. It takes away that stigma that distinguishes who can pay, who cannot pay, and it really makes healthy nutritious food part of the school day, just like textbooks, just like laptops or with other tools that kids need to be able to focus and engage in learning. As you imagine, many Vermont children get a majority of their daily nutrition through the school meal programs, with breakfast, lunch, and after school snaps. It's really critical. And for their littlest ones, age zero to five, 70% are cared for outside the home. And so good nutrition is really, really essential. 90% of our brains develop by the time we're five. And so farm to school is really helping providers to work towards better nutrition, integrating it into helping them achieve what they need to around licensing with regulations and really supporting that to happen. Our goal for farm to school is 500,000 a year in state funding so that we could achieve the network goal that 75% of our schools have integrated food system education and nourishing meals, purchasing 50% of the food. There's about $16 million in food that schools purchase every year. So we would like that to be a market opportunity for Vermont farmers. And we're hoping that eventually we'll get to 50% from regional and local sources. The program is really desired. We did a survey of early childhood providers, over 90%. Really we're interested in professional development around farm to early care. And we know that schools as well are hungry for the kind of support that they're getting through the farm to school program. And just a couple of quick health points. You know, establishing healthy eating habits early in a child's life is giving them that gift for the rest of their life. And it's really critical for preventing the kind of diet related diseases that we're seeing. 26% of Vermont high school teens are still obese and overweight. And that leads to some of the chronic problems, health problems later on. You might remember Department of Health has said poor diet is one of three behaviors that accounts for over half the deaths in Vermont. And so farm to school is a really strong prevention strategy for trying to reverse that trend. Just one last point. We still over 17,000 Vermont children come from food insecure homes, one in seven. And so even though we're moving in the right direction, we still have some work to do. So serving healthier local food. And what we have found and that you see in the handout is serving local healthier food, connecting kids to that food increases participation in the school meals program, which in turn gives those school meal programs better finances for buying more local fresh food, which again increases participation. We call it the virtuous cycle where this positive reinforcing cycle that happens. So we hope that you'll consider increasing even a small amount makes a huge difference for early childhood programs and for school communities. But increasing farm to school in the budget this year, we can put it to good use immediately. And thank you so much for giving us your time this morning. So before we have questions for you, sorry. Okay, absolutely. I'm just curious about how you get to be one of the schools that's providing, I'm just looking at the list. Yeah. How do you get to be 77%? With universal free meals. So right now, well there's several ways to do it without getting into great detail, but we're happy to come back. So there's a federal program or a couple, community eligibility provision, provision two, there's ways that if you have a higher percentage of lower income qualifying children into school, then you can apply for that through the federal program. And that's what we have been doing through the farm to school grants program and technical assistance is hunger free Vermont has been working with schools to help them qualify so they can access those programs. And once you qualify, then the entire school moves to universal meals. What we found, and Ginger Farron knows here if we wanna get in great more detail, is that some other schools that aren't quite at that point are really interested in moving towards universal meals. So there's, I can send you a link to there's a great story in Westminster recently on WCAX that the school themselves found that paying that difference to provide universal meals for all children, not just those that are individually eligible was worth that investment. They're sort of doing a pilot and there's what, a handful, three, four. It's growing, the number of schools that are saying, well even though we might not qualify for that federal program, we think that investment, the return on that investment is worth it. So we're hoping to see that just continue to spread. So the provision too, which is the, I appreciate it, when you are in, there, sorry, the only person who can talk is the person at the end, I apologize. If you are speaking next, or when we open it up, if you can. Can I just ask a question, yeah? So on the grants that you give out, are they like one time grants to get the school going in this direction because it doesn't seem like you would have sufficient money with $500,000 to sustain that to all those schools that you give grants to? Right, well a couple of things. One is the grants are a really important critical piece of a larger effort to farm to schools. So there's many, many more private contributions and businesses who are supporting a lot of the schools and the support organizations. So the grants are just one piece of that larger puzzle to support schools. Second, it's a two-year grant and with the grant funds, they get an array of support services. So they have Hunger Free Vermont working on their school nutrition program. They have curriculum integration workshops. They have action planning workshops. They have folks coming in and working with, you know, everything from local purchasing to cooking from scratch. So it's a really intensive investment, all with the intent that at the end of those two years, you embed that program in the school so it becomes the way that the school continues. If the school isn't ready, then there are other workshops and a lot of support organizations and courses that can continue that support. Thank you. Captain. I noticed when I looked at the list, very town school system is not on. My grandkids go there, a set of them do. And they get meals. I mean, so what are they? The schools get meals right now. I mean, they feed the kids in the morning. Yeah, breakfast. Yeah. I would say Hunger Free Vermont is better to get into the details of the school meal program. If you'd like ginger to respond, we can do that. Either way, if you're working with me, I'd like to phone a friend. Ginger, could you respond to any concrete, this example that I introduced? Sure. My name is Ginger Fairnaut, Nutrition Initiatives Manager for Hunger Free Vermont. Berry Town School doesn't qualify for universal meals because of the percentage of children that attend the school that are low income is not high enough. But they do offer breakfast, lunch, and after school meals and the children that are eligible to receive free or reduced meals, receive meals for free. Well, I know that my grandkids get them and I don't think they're gonna qualify under the poverty guidelines. But they eat, I know they do. Now I'm glad they do too. I think it's great for the kids, socially and everything. Yeah, really important. Okay, so Kate Venn is with Food Connects working with the schools and with Southern part of the state, she'll speak, and then Beth is in Rotland. Logan, do you have a piece of paper or Kelly, do you have a piece of paper so that you could write down your name and you could write down the name and correct spelling of the person from Hunger Free Vermont and as you come up, if you could write down your name and where you're from, because we don't have that list and this is a public record and a public meeting. Thank you. All right, welcome. Thank you. So I'm Kate, I'm here today from Browboro and I work with Food Connects which is sort of a regional. I'm sorry, Kate, who? Kate Venn, and I do have sort of an expanded testimony that I typed up back and I only have five copies, but I'm sure that will go on. We will give one to our committee. Great, thank you. Is this district? So Kate Venn, Food Connects, we are a farm to school, sort of like a regional farm to school support organization based in Browboro and we work with schools in mostly Wyndham County and then a few schools, mostly the Springfield School District in Windsor County and I probably work specifically with about 25 schools at this point and that's both elementary, middle and high school. And I'm here today to share a little bit of information about a new initiative that we are piloting in partnership with the Browboro Town Schools which is three elementary schools in Browboro and that is exploring the connections between the farm to school and the trauma-informed approaches and I'm sure many of you have heard a bit about the trauma-informed schools movement but for those of you who haven't, many schools across the state and the country are working to become trauma-informed so sort of building their own capacity to better support students who might be experiencing trauma at home and we are looking specifically at persistent food insecurity and how that relates to student success and wellbeing. So we're really excited, we're gonna be working for the next two years with some grant funding that we received with the Browboro Town Schools to explore kind of how the two approaches align and help them to find ways to use farm to school interventions to build resiliency amongst their students. What's really cool about it is we work with a lot of schools but as I'm sure you know school folks are really, really busy and so to find ways to integrate into programming that's already happening I think can really reinforce the farm to school approach and so I don't wanna say too much but the two kind of specific interventions that we are thinking about the first has to do with community connectedness so that is really a big piece of both the farm to school and the trauma-informed approaches. We do a lot of work around school gardening and fall harvest suppers and those two things kind of go hand in hand so often schools are growing food in their school gardens, teaching students using that as a tool for teaching and then actually using that food in feasts or harvest suppers in the fall with families and so we're gonna be trying to work with the schools to kind of expand those two pieces as a way to increase community connectedness and bring families together to get to know each other and hopefully to be able to get to know some of the farmers that are growing food and then the second piece is around the cafeteria of course, such a big part of farm to school and so we'll be working with teachers, food service, administrators to kind of understand the connections between food and nutrition and student well-being and so working with them to make cafeterias and those spaces where students are eating feel inviting, approachable, fun, welcoming, all of those things and also sort of reflective of student voice and choice so that students are really engaging in school milk programs and feeling like that is a space where they can have their needs met at school. So you can do anything John here says? At this point, no. I would say it's really, we haven't framed it as a pilot but it kind of feels like a pilot and so we have, And I'm sorry, you have one minute? One minute. Okay, we have a lot to learn so I guess the last thing I want to say is just look us up we're going to be trying to share this story over the next two years as we kind of explore the alignment between the two and so you have my information. And we have Beth from the Reldon Parent Child Center did she take one minute? She can take one minute. You were given, all groups are given 15 minutes. And so we now have, 45 seconds. I mean, do you have a copy of actually several copies of my testimony? Do you know what the wonders of doing is that this will be up and available for the entire public and her entire world to see on our legislative webpage. Okay. Well, I have a written testimony that given my nervousness I would have And you can read it, take your breath. Well, but it's four and a half minutes long. Well, okay, so am I good with this? Okay, so I represent Reldon County Parent Child Center which is an early education site and I know that you had a question regarding the impact that farm school is having on the early childhood centers and so I'd really like to speak to that. So the food security and adequate nutrition are two challenges to many other families in Reldon County. So I am coming from Reldon County but it's indicative across the state. According to hunger free Vermont, one in seven children live in food insecure homes. Over 90% of the families served through our programs at Reldon County Parent Child Center are living at or below the poverty line. Access to nutritious meals can often be difficult. So even though some, there are also many families as you spoke to that are not living in poverty that at Reldon County Parent Child Center are also actually offered free meals just to keep the social atmosphere actually very equal. So these problems, food insecurity, inadequate nutrition and hunger are all adverse childhood experiences that the trauma that was just spoken of. Thus trauma impacts physical and emotional health as well as behavior and academic performance. The effects can stay with the child their entire life and continue generationally unless steps are taken to break the cycle at Reldon County Parent Child Center where we're really committed to breaking those cycles in all our areas. So to address the issues of inadequate nutrition hunger and food insecurity specifically the Parent Child Center has begun to implement a strong and multifaceted food program in our community enhancing the 3,000 plus meals per month at our early education sites. This initiative is greatly enhanced through the Farm to School and Child Nutrition grant we were awarded through the Agency of Agriculture Food and Markets. Through the state's growing farm to school and early childhood efforts, Reldon County Parent Child Center will have the opportunity to develop a well structured, well planned and well integrated food program within our early childhood education. The Farm to Nutrition grant will help us to dramatically transform what is the existing food service which we would say is mediocre to one that will be exemplary by using more locally sourced ingredients and by bringing food and nutrition directly into our classrooms. It is here in the classrooms and in the cafeteria that we can begin with the child to reset an expectation of healthy eating for themselves and then eventually within the family. All this requires a well trained and enthusiastic staff and team of professionals committed to helping them. The team built through the Farm and School program and Child Nutrition grant provides those resources. Our own professional staff is excited to be part of this team helping the children they care for shift the paradigms to make long lasting changes in their lives. Bringing locally sourced fresh food and nutrition into the classroom and involving kids and hands on integrated food practices creates interest and acceptance of new foods and balanced meals. These ideas come home to the parents through the natural excitement and curiosity of children causing transformation within the family meals at home. Vermont schools with Farm to School programs have reported two times the national average in vegetable consumption and we are expecting the same. With Farm to School and Early Childhood, we will be growing our partnerships within the broader community by bringing the farm sector into our educational programming. It's exciting to think of our children knowing who is growing their apples, how their potatoes are grown and where in the Rutland County community these farmers work and live to grow the salad on their plates. Knowing the farmer gives added import to the food, knowing the food gives added import to the farmer. Vermont is fortunate in that we have so many individuals committed to working the land and creating a healthful food system. Introducing children to this healthier, fresher food system through cafeteria classroom and community will help them to understand some of the strongest values held by Vermont in a comprehensive way. The benefits of the Farm to School and Early Childhood program are having positive effects across a broad spectrum of needs in Vermont families. Introducing the program to early childhood settings is brilliant and where it catches children and their families at a time when crucial lifelong patterns can be remade. So I would ask for your support for keeping the funding level at 231,000 for the fiscal year and working towards the program's goals of 500,000. So thank you for your investment in the children's future. Thank you. Thank you. Kevin, you have a question. What do you do in the winter? What do we do in the winter in terms of the Farm to School? So we currently, we just received the grant for Farm to School. Right now we are working through Cisco and we have canned goods and you know, it's really, it feels impoverished to even talk about it. So that's not local food then. So that's not local. What we will be moving into local food and there's a lot of food that is able to be put into the system. The, you know, the parsnips and carrots and turnips and potatoes, all the onions that are over wintered through it by the farmers and by the, we work a lot with the food bank too and the food bank helps to provide a lot of those, you know, like root crops throughout the winter. And you all will be here all day today? Yes. Okay, so if we have questions in terms of our particular area or what's happening in terms of the childcare centers in our area or just even though schools and education is not a focus of this community, but rather early childhood, if you're interested in why your school is or is not in there, folks can be around all day. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And we have a celebration from four to six. If you want to join us in the cafeteria. Thank you very much. We will be otherwise occupied. I think this might be all for businesses. Who? The first time this place. Okay. Could you turn it off? And could you email, what's his name? The first time you testified. I just found this, the most is below the desk. I think it's the first time it's been posted. Okay. I'll email him. Turn it off, whatever. Yeah, turn it off. Okay, everyone let's take a deep breath and welcome. Yes, Mr. Marshall. Yes. Yes, Marshall. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm Anne Pugh from the Housing and Services Committee, and the committee as the agenda says, we have moved on to a different topic and we're talking again about age 57. And Mr. Marshall, thank you for coming. And so that we have a sense of, we don't know what to say about family from home, but just so that you know who you're speaking to. Right. Kelly Mayalis. I'm James Redmore. Dan Noyce. Theresa Wood. Malcolm McFarney. Anne Pugh. Sammy Haas. That's the typical answer. Carl Risenquist. Mary Beth Redmond. Logan McCull. And committee, Mr. Marshall is the husband of a woman who went through and unfortunately in her pregnancy and he is here to share their story because people had questions programmed. Who is it that makes these decisions and what are these decisions about? Thank you. Thanks for having me here today. My name is Garen Marshall. My wife and I are patient advocates now for later abortion access after our experience with it. I, we actually live in New York and we're just Live where? In New York. Although I went to school in Vermont. But I wanted to come here today to share our story because I feel like there's a lot of rhetoric and hypothetical situations that are being talked about sort of on the national stage and around specific pieces of legislation across the country. A lot of these hypotheticals don't reflect our story. They don't reflect any of the stories of the large community of patients that we know through support networks and things like that. So I think it's very important that we introduce a little actual patient perspective into the conversation whenever possible. So our first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage at 10 weeks and then we were excited going into our next pregnancy, a little trepidatious but excited and sort of it starts becoming about deadlines once we hit that 10 weeks. We were like, maybe we're gonna be okay. And then around 16 weeks, just some little subtle indications started becoming apparent. An anatomy scan showed clubbed feet. A little bit later we got, there was a blood test that detected a high fetal protein level and that can have some, that can indicate some pretty terrifying outcomes for a pregnancy. So we were scared and suddenly we were elevated to a maternal fetal health specialist. And so we were getting ultrasounds like every two weeks every time waiting for terrible news but it kept sort of just being pushed off. This thing happened, there were clenched fists, things like that. But we understood that as long as growth was progressing we would be okay. So we sort of just crossed our fingers and kept going. Eventually at 30 weeks we went in and we found out that growth had cratered and that there were high levels of amniotic fluid. And we didn't really know what that meant because we're not physicians. But our doctor explained to us that that meant that the fetus couldn't swallow. And swallowing is how a fetus practices breathing effectively. And that indicated that if we were able to carry out the pregnancy to term and get through a birth that the baby would not be able to breathe outside the womb. So like anyone getting bad news from their doctor you sort of look to your doctor and you're like, okay, well what do we do about this? What do we do now? And that's when in our case and due to the New York our doctor informed us that he couldn't really help us. And if we could carry the pregnancy to term but he didn't recommend that. My wife had had a brain surgery the year before and if she went into spontaneous labor it could risk her life. And he recommended that we seek a later abortion and there's four places in the country that you can do that as a sort of like coming from out of state. So we went to Colorado. In our case, because of the some specific health issues we had to pay $10,000 out of pocket, which we didn't have. My wife's mother took it out of her retirement account. A lot of patients that we know through our network pay anywhere from 20 to $30,000 for the procedure. So you can imagine that this means that a lot of people can't get the procedure. And then we mourned frankly. We had a loss. And I think that that basic story of wanting something, having some hope, holding on to hope and then finding out that there is no hope is more like all of the stories that I've heard from every patient that we have talked to and met than anything being talked about in the news. And I know that it feels like there's a lot of charge rhetoric on both sides. But again, the patients that have talked to us, we put up a letter, a public letter and open letter yesterday signed by, I think it's up to 85 people who have actually had abortions after 20 weeks. People, once we put the letter out and put the word out in our community of people that could sign on to it, people started writing us and sharing their stories. These are stories of people who had a very wanted pregnancy, went in and a one woman was getting her teeth cleaned and it introduced something that an infection that ended up causing her pregnancy not to be successful and threatened her life in the process. Cases where a toxin was introduced in someone's environment and it led to some terrible things. A lot of cases where there's, it's important to understand pregnancy is very complicated and each person's sort of trajectory in pregnancy, their health conditions, the circumstances around their pregnancy are very unique and a lot of people like us don't find out until very late in pregnancy that something's gone terribly wrong. The truth is we don't know a lot about, that there's not a lot of data on pregnancies or abortions this late in pregnancy. The CDC only collects information that sort of captures at post 21 weeks. But we know that like the later and later you get, they fall off rapidly to the point where frankly a lot of the best information that we have is anecdotal. So my wife is in a support group for people that have had to end wanted pregnancies but through telling our story publicly, we have met people from all over the country over the last two years who've had to go through these procedures and I can guarantee you that they're your neighbors, they're your family and they are terrified to talk to you about it. Because it's a red earth in this country. The reason that we have a wide network of patients that have had to go through this, I'm sorry to say that we were not able to bring anyone from Vermont. As you can imagine, a lot of people are very unwilling to share this story even with the closest people in their lives. I can't speak for every patient that's gone through this but I think we can speak for a lot of them now. I'm very willing to answer any questions you have, Paul. I don't have a question to really just have a comment on it. These from my perspective help ease your mind. I think I speak for everybody that's relentless no matter how we feel about the issue. Wants to limit abortion in cases and medical necessity like that. I realize there's rhetoric on both sides that are extreme but I feel confident speaking and saying none of us feel that medically necessary abortion should be legal. But I also want to say to you, I know from my own experience as my ex-wife, we lost our first child and she almost died. She was being rushed to the hospital to understand that. So thank you for sharing that story. That was not easy to do. Yeah, thank you. Can I just point of order that we speak for ourselves? Yes, go ahead. Not everybody has to be afraid. Okay, thanks. Dabber. You kept using the term we and I was trying to, did we mean you and your spouse or did we mean some organization that you represent? You kept saying we have many patients, we have many. We had me and my wife. We, she and I since sort of going public with our story have been just again, like not on behalf of any organization, just trying to share our story with people and share other stories with people and frankly get patient perspectives into things like news coverage and stuff like that. But I don't represent any organization. The following question is, do you find that you run into people who are still against an abortion that would take place because of what you just talked about? Yes. Do you find people that feel you shouldn't do it anyway? Yes. So they're willing to let a woman die? Yes, there are a lot of people in this country that we've talked to who feel that that a pregnant person should give their life even in a case where the pregnancy is not viable. And a lot of that comes from the idea that abortion is just wrong. But I think that that idea is more of a cultural idea. I don't think it's been tested by people's experiences. And more often, people who are against abortion, if you tell them someone's story, whether it's our story or similar stories, even stories where there's not a medical indication, I mean, I could tell you some really terrible stories about a 12-year-old who was raped and who the pregnancy was not discovered until later in pregnancy. And I think we could go through it and say, okay, we're okay for it in a medical circumstance. We're okay for it in situations of rape or this or whatever. But I think what happens is that we start drawing these little lines around people and we say, it's okay in this case, it's okay in this case, it's okay in this case. And my challenge is that I think that it's very difficult for a law to sort of draw those lines in a way that we would all agree with. I think it's, I mean, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a physician, but my guess is that the people in the room, the patient and the physician who has gone through, you know, medical training and licensure and all that kind of stuff are in the best position to make that decision with all of the factors, all of the complicated factors that might be coming into play. I think once we start trying to draw these lines, we can be sure that someone's gonna end up on the other side of it. And that is a tragedy. That person, you might be sentencing to death. That person, you might be sentencing to a life of incredible hardship with an unresponsive baby that will never, ever, ever have any brain function, for instance. That's something that's happened a lot. These situations where people find out that there's some terrible indication, they don't want to get an abortion. They don't believe in abortion. So they may continue the pregnancy and, you know, either to full term or have an induction earlier and they go through a mourning process where the baby expires in their arms. And that's something, for instance, that would be disallowed by some of the laws being proposed from people in the country. And those people are going through grieving processes and their physicians are being very compassionate and allowing them to do that. And I think, again, those are the stories that are actually happening in the country. So I think if we, if you consider a law based on a hypothetical versus what's actually happening in the country, you know, I think you have to decide where you want to be there. Call. You're saying there's no place, I mean, even though you're from the PR, there's no place in Vermont where you could have the child aborted because of the positions that has described. I believe that's simply because the, there's only four physicians that are taking patients much later in pregnancy, which is where we were at 32 weeks by the point we could arrange the healthcare. So I'm not aware whether or not you guys have physicians in the state that treat patients in cases like ours from out of state, very late in pregnancy, et cetera. Mr. Marshall, I thought part of what you were saying was that, and I might have misunderstood you, is in terms of people who have contacted you who are, have experienced, have been through this similar experience that people are not always comfortable sharing that. And that there may be someone from Vermont. Absolutely. But that they are not comfortable. What I heard, that's how I was here. I think, again, we can't know for sure. I just know that based on the numbers, it would stand to reason, these terrible things that happen during pregnancy, obviously don't care what state you're living in. So I think that's the issue. But in our case, you know. I'm sorry, what did you say there doesn't occur in our state? It would seem, I mean, if it didn't occur in Vermont, I think someone would probably write a paper about that. But I would say that just statistically, you could guarantee that it's happening, that people are getting bad diagnoses in Vermont, and they may be traveling to a clinic in Maryland, a clinic in DC, a clinic in Colorado, a clinic in New Mexico, depending on their circumstances. Or in some cases, it may be that people are helping them here. I don't know the specifics of your law or the cases here. Carl, Sandy just pulled up some data and from 2016, the Vermont Department of Health after 21 weeks, there were 14 abortions and three then unknown. There were three unknown in terms of when they happened. But so out of a total of 1298 in terms of that. How many years was that? This was one year in 2016. If I could just follow up on that. My point was not necessarily the number, but based on the situation he's talking about, it would seem that currently in Vermont, he would have been allowed or his wife to have an abortion. But what I'm hearing is that he thinks probably not, in other words, do it. I don't know that, I don't know that, sorry. I don't know anything about the providers or the solution. What we can... Very cute, what I'm saying is very cute. Vermont Medical Society is very clear that no abortion providers in Vermont perform elective abortions in the third trimester. So I take that as a fact that no abortion providers in Vermont perform elective abortions. But not by law, by virtue of their... Medical ethics, I presume, right? By their medical ethics and by the procedures and policies of the institution. My point was it's not by law. There's no prohibition. Exactly, exactly. And I would hesitate to say that the experience that Mr. Marshall is talking about was not an elective abortion in my mind. I don't know if you would, I mean... I understand. I would medically characterize it as elective. Yeah. So what am I? But... You would medically characterize it as elective. Okay. If it is not to immediately save the person's life, my understanding is that that's what constitutes the notion of elective. Okay. But again, I'm not a physician or a lawyer. I'm just curious if in interacting with a lot of these people that have come forward to reach out since you've put your story out, have you run into... I mean, it's a very anecdotal question. Have you run into people who have made decisions that are less dire or people who just kind of made a decision at eight or nine months or 32 weeks or whatever, and just like, you know what? I'm not gonna go down this road kind of thing. Like, have you run into people in that category? I've never run into people in that category, nor have I even heard of one anecdotally. But I would also note that I'm not sure that any of the current practicing providers would even provide that type of care. In our case, while we had the doctor that we saw in Colorado had had conversations with our physician in New York, so they had our medical records, et cetera, but still he himself did an ultrasound to confirm the findings of our doctor in terms of the high amniotic fluid, et cetera, the growth. And so he made his own independent determination on what was happening in the pregnancy before he would be willing to move forward. So again, I think that these physicians are often characterized as free-willing, like, you have the money, I'll do it. It's not a thing. To my knowledge, there's no provider in the country that makes these decisions lightly. And their accounts have been published in various stories. Various stories. And thank you for clarifying that you believe that the experience that you went through would be characterized as an elective abortion. And I would say that very few of the ones that I understand would be characterized otherwise. I've heard a few where it is immediately to save the person's life, but a lot of them have to do with a poor fetal diagnosis that then risks health, which is not necessarily the case. So my understanding was elective meant the life of a mother was compromised, but also like the child most likely wouldn't survive, but that's not your understanding. I mean, again, I'm not a lawyer or physician, but it's my understanding that elective is, you were electing to get a procedure. You could carry that pregnancy to term, and roll the dice in terms of your own health, but it is not, I think a lot of times people choose to get a procedure to end pregnancies like that for their mental health, frankly. I know that that was certainly part of our, the idea of having to carry a doomed fetus for weeks and weeks was that sounded terrible to me. And I didn't want that for my wife. I'm sorry, I'm just having a picture of a woman who is eight months pregnant, and I know I am bad about that. I see people who are eight months pregnant, and I have to make sure I don't tap their stomach or go, how exciting, when's your baby due? Yeah, in our case, when we had to fly to Colorado, that happened on the way there. We was a couple of days off of Mother's Day, and then people kept congratulating us on the baby, and asking if it was our first, and did we have a name? Did we know if it was a boy or a girl? So again, that's the thing. Pregnancy is such a public thing in our culture that I think that we have to own up to what we're asking these people to go through if we're demanding that they continue a pregnancy in these situations. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you for sharing a very private story to help us in our deliberation on an issue that is very hard. Yeah. And I would urge you, if you have a moment at some point while considering this, to look at abortionpatients.com, very simple abortionpatients.com. That's the open letter that we organized from patients who've had to terminate after 20 weeks, in response to some of the rhetoric that we've been hearing and mischaracterization, so we've been hearing around the procedure. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. I have myself. And we're young. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. And may I ask, do you have anything? I do. And I have brought copies, too, in case you did not. We have it online. And we have two people on the other side. So you can pull it up on you if you have any. We're a little behind. No problem. It's all on it. And I apologize. How do you pronounce your name? Boer Yang. Boer Yang. Yes. Sorry. Good morning. Again, my name is Boer Yang. And I am the Executive Director of the Human Rights Commission. Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to speak today. In support of age 57. For those of you who don't know, the Human Rights Commission is a state agency that has jurisdiction over complaints of discrimination in housing, in state government employment, and in places of public accommodations. And places of public accommodations is a really large spectrum. That includes schools, hospitals, roads, prisons. It is, in fact, really a significant portion of the work that we do at the Human Rights Commission. Three very important categories is sex, breastfeeding, and pregnancy accommodations that recover. A woman who has the right to an abortion could bring a claim of discrimination if that right is impeded, certainly at the federal level and both in the state of Vermont. The Human Rights Commission strongly believes and affirms that the right to an abortion is a fundamental human right. And so we absolutely support age 57. Ideally, having a constitutional amendment giving women the right to an abortion is the best way to ensure that that right remains in place. And I know that the Senate is looking at a similar bill. But right now, and we would encourage that the most important thing is passing legislation, ensuring that right immediately. We, in the written testimony. I'm sorry, you said something about an amendment. What was the amendment? The Senate is proposing a similar bill that could potentially make a constitutional amendment, ensuring the right to an abortion. And we would encourage the House to consider such a thing as well. Currently, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Nevada, Oregon all have laws in place, ensuring the right to an abortion. Oregon's law, which was enacted in 2017, is probably the most comprehensive. And it's called the Reproductive Health Equity Act. And it requires insurers to cover with no cost to the patient the entire gamut of reproductive treatment. Contraception, the sector needs prenatal care, along with abortion, postnatal care, and screenings for cancer, as well as sexually transmitted diseases. Ideally, the Human Rights Commission would support a bill just like Oregon's. One of the greatest barriers to abortion is the cost. And we know that that impediment impacts women of color and women who are of lower socioeconomic status. And these are issues that are really important at the Human Rights Commission. And I imagine it'd be important to you as well as legislators. And I have included here what the coverage is at each of these states that have considered it. I don't wanna spend too much time on that unless you'd like me to go through that. But we know that currently there are many states that are looking at the right to abortion or banning the right to abortion. And so it's very important that the state of Vermont really sets the precedence and is at the forefront of this fight to ensure women's rights. Thank you. Any questions? Question. If Rome-Verse's way was overturned, and we passed the bill here in Vermont. So nationally it was not, you couldn't do it. Am I understanding what you just said? No. When the federal government passes the law, it can do one of two things. It can have a law that is prohibits something from happening or it could just be a law that overturns the right to something. So if Rome-Verse's way does overturn, the federal government isn't really making a decision that it is now criminal to conduct an abortion. It really is just saying that law, that right is no longer protected or observed at the federal level. But each state would still have the ability to create more protective laws and ensuring that right. So unless we actually see the federal government passing an act that makes it criminal in nature, then we wouldn't have that competition between the state and the federal law. So this, if the Rome-Verse's way is overturned and the state of Vermont does not do anything, then you are essentially leaving women without any right to an abortion. But if you enacted this statute and Rome-Verse's way does overturned, that still ensures the rights of women in the state of Vermont. And we're not likely to see the federal government pass a law making abortion criminal in nature. So that kind of shows there's no law against national. And there's no law against it locally. Is there any reason why a woman can't get an abortion if it's needed? Well, if you don't have any laws in place, at federal level or at the state level, then you have a situation where you could have clinicians not making a choice not to provide it. You could potentially have employers not allowing someone to take time off for medical reasons to find an abortion. You could have people going out of the state. And I would say not having any laws in place is probably a very bad idea because you want to guarantee that right to women. And also you want to protect clinicians in the state of Vermont who are providing it. And you want to protect women from discrimination and employment and in places of public accommodations if they choose to, both again, if they choose to have an abortion or they choose to have a child. So the law is protective in both ways really. It isn't just the right to abortions, it's also the right to have a child. The Civil Rights Commission does, do they recognize that the unbored child has any rights or not? It's the Civil Rights Commission. So I'm asking. The Human Rights Commission. I'm sorry? Yeah. So I'm asking if you recognize any rights of the unbored. So our protective categories is sex discrimination, breastfeeding and then pregnancy accommodation falls within sex discrimination. So there isn't a specific language as to the rights of unborn fetuses or children or whatnot, but it's sort of subsumed in sex discrimination claims. That isn't to say that we don't take a position on that, which is why I'm here really is we do absolutely believe that it is a fundamental right, but it's not spelled out in the statute. You also said that people of color are discriminated against because it costs so much to have an abortion. Can you explain to me why you singled out people of color? Yeah, well, I didn't mean to single that out, other than to say that we definitely know that cost to have an abortion can prohibit many women. And we know that there are statistics out there that show that women of color and all persons of color tend to be on the lower socioeconomic level. I think Carrie Brown from the Commission on Women provided a really thorough written testimony on the connections between economics and the right to abortion. And we absolutely support that. There is a connection between the right to have control over your body and the ability to go to work. We see that up until this point, a lot of the concerns has been regarding women who want to have children in the workplace. That's often the things that we're looking at is you wanna have the time off or the pay time off or you wanna have the pregnancy accommodations. So we know that that absolutely is connected to reproductive rights. But we have never had to consider a woman who is leaving the workplace to have an abortion or an employer who might disagree with a woman's choice to have an abortion. And that's something that we are potentially facing if we don't have a law in place to ensure that. And so in Vermont, that's all I care about right now. In Vermont, when you said the statement about women of color, last time I checked now, I don't know exactly, but there were more people that aren't of color in Vermont. Even if there's one, it doesn't make any difference, but it just intrigued me that you used that term to try to convince me that that was a major problem in Vermont. Okay, so let me just take a step back. That just happens to be, we at the Human Rights Commission have jurisdiction not only over sex discrimination claims, but also discrimination claims on behalf of people who are persons of color, as well as individuals who are from different national origins. And because that is also within our jurisdiction, I thought it was also important to point out that this isn't just a women's rights issue. This also impacts women of color as well. Nationally, the fact that the state of Vermont is majority white doesn't really, I think, make it any more or less compelling. I understand. Yes. Say that, I'm sorry. I said, I realized that. That's the way I'm looking at this. Sure. There's no discrimination. I'm not thinking of that at all. I'm thinking of a woman. Right. Period. In terms of costs and costs of abortion being potentially prohibitive, I think it's important to note that women of color tend to make less money. And that if this house is interested in passing this bill, in the future we would consider language or we would be supportive of language or terms that supports insurance coverage or any kind of sort of appropriation or money related to that. That was the context of costs, yeah. So insurance companies do not cover abortion at all? We don't have any laws in place. I don't know if I can speak directly to what insurance companies do or can't do, but we don't have any laws in place that would sort of ensure that, yeah. I don't think I'm the best person to answer the question about insurance. Thank you very much. Are there other questions? Just, I mean, you've talked about commission on civil rights, so let's say a husband did not want his wife to terminate a pregnancy. You get involved in any of those situations. In other words, his civil right is being challenged by the right to abortion. Yeah. How would your organization deal with something like that? So again, the Human Rights Commission handles cases of discrimination, and that particular situation is one in which that man, that husband, is not a protected individual under our statute. So I only operate under the confines of our statute. So I wouldn't have the ability to interfere in that situation, to even bring a claim in that situation, to investigate a situation like that. We strictly investigate and litigate claims of discrimination, yes. And he would not be a protected individual under our statutes. By our human rights statutes. By the Vermont Human Rights Statute, yes, yes. How would a down syndrome individual be treated under the civil rights? So under the Vermont Human Rights Statute, an individual down syndrome could have a disability claim, right? If they were claiming that they were, because of their disability, they were discriminated against in housing, in places of public accommodations, or in state government employment. They are a protected individual because they have a disability. So an individual with down syndrome who applies for a job and is qualified and is not picked for that job, because of their disability, could bring a claim at the Human Rights Commission. Likewise, if they walked into a store and the store said, we don't want people like you in here, they could bring a claim of public accommodations discrimination at the Human Rights Commission. So it is because they're connecting that discrimination to the basis of their disability. If I could just, could I just pursue a little bit more? Yes, please. What you said about, when I asked, do the unborns have any rights? And you said a lot of things pretty much about what you cover and not cover, but you never said affirmatively or non-affirmatively, I guess, of whether the Civil Rights Commission believes that the unborn have any rights? No one has ever brought a claim at the Human Rights Commission on behalf of an unborn child. So I cannot speak to that. And our statute specifically does not define that you have to be born or unborn because every individual that has ever brought a claim has been born. We do have claims on behalf of minor children that parents or guardians bring. And certainly sometimes they do have disabilities, but again, I work under the confines of the Vermont Humanoid Statue and thus far that claim has never been brought. And it is nowhere spelled out in our statute. So I hope that clarifies that. Yeah. Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Thank you. So I would like to point out just for general information, general information, if insurance companies cover. Okay. I will do a little research and see if I can get that answer. Thank you for coming. There's only two of them in the morning. Right. I will see what I can do in terms of that right now. But right now we have, unless people want, we have some time to stretch our legs and walk around and at 11 o'clock, gentlemen of the player, there's comments to talk about opi, opiores. So is there anything that people want to talk about? I guess I'm just surprised that the commission on civil rights, human rights, human rights, okay. Human rights. The teacher does not have a position on that anyway. So she answered it well given her situation. Amen. I mean, she was clear about what the statute covers. Thank you. Okay.