 We're going to be talking about designing for media today. And I'm going to talk a little bit about what exactly designing for media is. How many of you guys here are designers? Oh, wow, most of you. OK, developers? I saw some of the same hands. So are you designers and developers? All you guys raise your hands. OK, great. So this is really a talk for designers. But are there any UX designers in here? Would you identify yourself specifically? So today we're going to talk a little bit about the visual design process and the UX design process. I think it's going to be a very special kind of angle that we're going to take today with designing for media. I want to introduce you guys to Dave Leonard. Dave works with me quite a bit on several projects. And we're going to talk about the projects we work on together. Yeah, I'm Dave from Phase 2. I lead the analysis and UX team. So we're responsible for a lot of requirements, gathering, content strategy, analysis, planning for content migration, and integration with other content providers. And my name is Samantha Warren. I also work for Phase 2 Technology. And you can find me on Twitter at SamanthaToy. Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions after this, or if you just want to follow me. And I tweet a lot about my cat. I'm a visual designer. And when I say visual designer, it's a little bit different than a UX designer. And we're going to talk through some of the responsibilities and roles that we have on each of the individual projects, specifically these media projects that we worked on in the past. We are located in Alexandria, Virginia. I'm actually in San Francisco. But when Dave and I work together, we're usually working out of the Alexandria office. We do a lot of telecommuting. At Phase 2 Technology, we specialize, not just in media, designing for media, but we also do a lot of online publications, which to some extent is media, government websites, and community websites. At Phase 2, we love beer, cats, and each other. Today's presentation, I'm going to first talk a little bit about what designing for media means. What makes it different than just designing for anything else? We're going to talk a little bit about the Washington Examiner as a case study. It's a project that Dave and I worked on together. And then we're going to talk about Take Part as another case study, two very separate media case studies with similarities and their differences. We're going to talk about the concepts behind many of the decisions we made, the challenges that were similar, the challenges that were different, and then we're going to open everything up for questions. So what does it mean to design for media? Designing for a site that is meant to reach a large audience with a daily content cycle. If you look at a blog or a commercial website, brochure site, these are all sites that may not be updated on a regular basis. But when you're talking about designing for media, you may be designing for content that has a weekly or maybe even daily content cycle. We're really talking mostly about designing for content. And what makes media different is just the sheer amount of information. You're dealing a lot with tons of photos, videos, and a lot of body copy, lots of typography, and a lot of organizing information in a way that makes it very readable and usable to the user. And then there's advertising. The most exciting part of designing for media for a designer, it's sort of the elephant in the room, something that you have to deal with. And we're going to talk a little bit more about that later on in the presentation. But I think for me, one of the biggest challenges that we face is kind of thinking, wrapping our minds around designing for a frequent publishing cycle and what that means, the flexibility that you provide, the content creator with designing for a frequent publishing cycle. So today's case studies are going to be Take Part and the Washington Examiner. How many of you guys are familiar with either of the two of these organizations? Okay, a few of you, that's great. Take Part, how many of you guys have seen Waiting for Superman or The Cove or The Help? Which one? Contagion? So Participant Media is a great organization that really tries to spawn action. They have a movie production side of the house, but they also have an online site that produces a lot of content and they're very action-oriented. So TakePart.com is actually their online organization to try and spur action amongst their readers. The visual design goals when approaching TakePart.com were they really wanted to exhibit great storytelling and this is a common theme when you get to designing for media. They wanted to compel their users to take action. This is a little bit different than I would say than other media examples because if you talk about a newspaper or a magazine, you're not necessarily trying to get your users to do anything once they read the content but TakePart is specifically trying to engage their users, trying to get them involved in the community. And then the last thing is promoting sharing and I think that is a very common theme. Making sure that the content that's created doesn't just live at that site but it lives all over the internet and that people are eager to tell their friends about it. So and kind of as an extension of that, a lot of the user experience goals were really to kind of find creative ways to compel people to take action. So on the old version of the site, there was a page that listed here are all the latest actions that you might do and it wasn't really as effective they found as promoting an action within the context of some kind of story that really provided more background and rather than just putting a link at the end, putting a link sort of arbitrarily or some kind of really called out treatment right in the middle of the story that compel that user to take action. Another thing that was really important and is something that we're seeing more and more of is the idea of kind of supporting the ebb and flow of a particular topic. So a particular topic like food could start out as a tag and then over time they may wanna put more of an editorial emphasis on it and stand up more of a partially curated and partially automated page to really kind of call attention to the best content that they're writing about those things. And then design UX for editors too. So on a lot of these sites that we work on, the UX for the end user is very important but the people who are really using this system very heavily on a regular basis to do a lot of really important curation, it's really important that that's very intuitive and straightforward process. A process that I use is, last year at Drupal Con in Chicago I actually talked a lot about my design process and one of the things that I use in the design process is a tool called Style Tiles. And if you wanna go ahead and take a look at Style Tiles you can go to stil.es website online. It's a process where I actually engage the client in asking a lot of questions about their brand. And then I help them to develop a common visual language so that me as a designer can be on the same page as the client for what they're looking for. So I go into the process by either conducting an interview with the stakeholders or I conduct a virtual interview via a survey. And these are some of the adjectives that I got back when I asked to take part about their brand and what they wanted to do with their website. So words that I got back were engaging, hierarchy, spacious, action-oriented, community. These are really, they're not necessarily adjectives but they're descriptive words that told me what they were looking to do with the visual design of the site. And when Take Part came to us, this is what their site looked like originally. And what's an interesting factoid about this entire project is that when they approached us they actually were looking more for a realignment rather than a redesign. They weren't looking to change colors or fonts or brand. They just wanted to sort of kind of get everything cleaned up and put into a better hierarchy. But after I conducted the interview I put together this is one of my Style Tiles. It's basically, I call it paint chips, fabric swatches of the web. It's kind of an idea for like getting samples of an interface design out there so that a client and I can have a discussion around what they're looking for. So I created this Style Tile that represented what they were asking for which was a realignment of their current site. It's very similar colors, very similar brand. It would really just be putting a lot of their stuff on a grid. But the curious thing about this project was while the client was asking for a realignment they were actually using words that did not describe their brand. They were using words like editorial, content focus, circulatory of, spacious. And so I decided to give them another Style Tile that sort of expanded upon their brand and made it a little bit more editorial like. And then I actually decided to go out on a limb and take some of the words that they used and really do something a little different. I gave them new color scheme. I actually changed their logo to black and white. This kind of idea of it being really punchy, a publishing kind of punchy feel to it. And bright colors to reinforce the idea of action, a very youthful feel. And in the end they actually really wanted to go with this final Style Tile. And the visual design ended up, whoops, I think I skipped. Oh, and then we're gonna actually go through the next part of the process to talk about the visual design in the UX. All right, so in parallel we were talking, having a lot of conversations around brand and to what extent we wanted to keep certain things intact and explore other ideas. We were also having a lot of really in-depth conversations about content strategy. For publishers specifically, I mean I think their visual design and their user experience is really just an extension of their fundamental content strategy. So we had a lot of conversations about different types of content they had, how their content was interrelated, how it needed to be cross promoted. So for instance, there might be one content type called video and another content type called article and they might wanna cross promote that video within an article but in sort of an arbitrary position. So we did some work with some embeddables modules to kind of facilitate how we would theme a node that was embedded within the body of another node, for example. Creation requirements, that was a huge piece of it. I think they really recognized the value and the curation that they provided rather than just being a stream of the latest things. Having an editor really handpicked these things that are really gonna engage readers and really compel them was really important to them but at the same time, we had to balance that against what their actual curation capacity was. So to what extent do they actually have editors who can stay on top of curating content on a regular basis for all of the different verticals and topics that they wanted to demonstrate expertise in? And then another thing was campaigns. So a lot of the work that they do that participant media does is produce these films that raise awareness around various issues and how those films were sort of manifest on the website via the campaign process was a really, really important part of the content strategy and it was very heavily informed by the existing campaign concept because we had to migrate existing campaigns over to the new site and keep them largely intact but sort of try to find ways to work them into the new design cues that we were exploring. So once we really had a solid idea of what their content strategy was and what the content structure was, that let us start doing a lot of wire framing. And one of the things that we did on this particular project that I thought worked really well was Samantha and I were both kind of involved in a lot of these conversations and we sat down and did pair wire framing at the same time. So one of the classic struggles that you have with the interaction between a UX designer and a visual designer is to what degree of fidelity do we actually wanna create these wire frames? Like do we want them to be super loose or do we want them to be a little bit more specific? And when we were doing this pair wire framing exercise we really had a sense for, I had a sense for how detailed she needed things and what to be careful about being overly specific about, et cetera. So I mean that really cuts down on the number of revision cycles and it creates a much better working relationship because it's not like I'm just gonna create something and then drop it on Samantha and say, all right, here's how the site's gonna look. So she was involved very heavily in the design process and we were literally sitting down like pair programming style and putting the wire frame together in real time. And I think one thing to note here is that the visual design process that we walked through with the style tiles, it's going on in parallel to the wire framing process. There's a lot of overlap between I'm constantly consulting Dave about what I'm doing on the style tiles and he's constantly consulting me about what I'm doing or about what he's doing on the wire frames. So I think the final wire frame came down to being this. This is an example of what the homepage wire frame looked like. And then once I came in and worked through the visual design with the client it ended up looking like that. So that's Take Parts case study which we're gonna go back and revisit some of the specifics in a moment but I'm going to go through next the examiner, the Washington examiner. How many of you guys are familiar with Washington examiner? Okay, so it's a local newspaper in the DC area that has a rich history. You can see here by their logo. It's definitely a historical logo. It was created by William Randolph Hearst and they actually have a very strong tie to the political climate in Washington DC. If you guys are from Washington or ever visited you know that just about everything in DC has a bit of a tie in to the political climate. So some of the visual design goals that we determined early on in the process and needed to feel modern. This was really important especially with the election coming up in 2012 this feeling that it needed to be very updated. Really important that it stayed true to the history of the brand. There are readers who have been reading the examiner for years and years. They wanted to make sure that they felt as though this was still the Washington examiner's brand and it needed to be very easy to use and easy to read. Readability is a major piece. They wanted their content to show through so the visual design needed to support that. So from sort of a strategy in UX standpoint I think some of their biggest goals were really to demonstrate the breadth and in some cases depth of their coverage. So it was very highly section based and they're a little bit unique. So they cover a lot of local news whether it's about education or real estate or local government issues and all those kinds of things for the DC metro area but they're also really well respected nationally in terms of their political coverage. So even though they had a very wide breadth of coverage there were certain areas where they really wanted to put more emphasis so that not all the sections were really the same. And similar to take part, I mean, the promotion of the top quality curated content was a really, really big goal for them. That actually created a few challenges in terms of image handling and some of those other things because in a lot of cases you wanted to make one set of curation decisions like these are the top five stories of the day and they need to be cross promoted in various areas of the site. So on the homepage they have a really large treatment on other pages like an article if you landed on an article from a Google search or something like that, you don't want people to miss out on the top five stories because they're only on the homepage. So we had to repurpose them there. And so things like image sizing and ratios and stuff like that were really, really important conversations we had along those lines. And another thing that was really important to them was really showcasing the talent that they had in terms of the authors that they had in house. This was a little bit challenging because there were so many different sources of content coming into the system. So there was content that was being created directly in Drupal. There was content that was being piped into Drupal through some feed processing work that we did from a system that was used to create their actual newspaper and then there was also like feeds coming in from the associated press that they were using to supplement their coverage on some of the areas that they weren't writing as much original content for. So we've got all these different data sources and authors are sort of handled differently in those different data sources. So rather than creating a bunch of different templates for all these different scenarios, we had to find some rules around what does an author look like if it's just an organization? Or what does an author look like if it's a blogger who's really high profile? And all these kinds of things were really important from a design and from a strategy standpoint. So we conducted the survey just as we did with Take Part. And a lot of the answers we got here were really colorful. I can't recommend enough if you work ever with publishing the publishing industry and you get the chance to talk to the publishing organization's top writers, you can get some really great words and adjectives out of them. And I think here one of the major things that they really stressed is that they wanted it to be local and not necessarily visually, Washington DC local, but the fact that it really highlighted local content. Again, the political side of things really needed to show through other words that were used were like decluttered, flexible, dynamic, regional and speedy. And speedy is an interesting word, right? It's very valuable in the idea of they want it to look speedy, but what does that mean? So kind of opening that conversation and to some degree once I did have some back and forth with them speedy kind of meant they wanted to see a lot of white space. This is what the Washington Examiner looked like before we started the project. And what we actually did before, and this kind of comes down to every situation, every project is unique in some way. And this project was unique in the fact that we actually did a smaller engagement with thewashingtonexaminer.com before starting their main site. And in this situation, it was the Campaign 2012 site, which needed to look, again, very modern up to date, but had much more of a political slant to it. So we had this as a very major factor in moving forward with the.com site because a lot of the stakeholders really pointed to the things they liked on this piece of the puzzle. And so moving forward, if you wanna take a look at the style tiles that were presented to the client here, there were three style tiles, which you can see they're three very similar style tiles in this situation because we kind of already had narrowed down very specific things they liked in the fact that we had conducted several surveys up into this point with the smaller site and we knew exactly what they liked or didn't like about the site. And what you see here is three different very kind of variations of the same red, white, and blue color scheme, same sort of stars and stripes, but how we were going to implement that on the final site really came down to the next step in the process and they ended up really picking this style tile to move forward with. Again, still very similar to what they had for the campaign site, but making some clear choices that pointed towards a greater amount of content. The campaign site specifically was pulling feeds in from all over the web. It was meant to pull in tweets and smaller snippets of information that would be changed out more often. But on the main WashingtonExaminer.com site, it was going to be much more lengthy content. So we wanted to put much more of a focus on the typography and the body copy. Cool, so for this project, we did something that was similar to the pair of wire framing idea in a way, but it was really more sketch session. So we got the entire team involved and came together and sort of did a group brainstorm. And the way that we set that up was that leading into the meeting, everybody was time boxed to an hour and they weren't allowed to use any tools like Omnigraphyl or anything like that. They just had to draw a hand drawn sketch and come up with whatever crazy ideas that they could possibly come up with. Because on this project in particular, as Samantha alluded to, being really cutting edge and modern was really important. So we really wanted to push the envelope and get as much input from everybody on the team as possible. We also feel like this helps alleviate the where do I start feeling. Sometimes when you start doing you actually, there's this initial inertia where you're trying to get starting and trying to get inspired and it really breaks that down and makes it a lot easier to get rolling. I think too with the sketch sessions, like we all were kind of in a room together. It was supposed to be an hour meeting and turned into a three hour meeting. And I think a lot of things that we would have never really done before that came out of this project because we sort of did, we kind of forced each other to think differently on this project. Yeah, and then we also just kind of, after we talked, everybody kind of presented their sketch and then we talked about the elements of each that we liked as a group. And I believe we ended up scratching all the things we had done up until that point and completely redrawing it on the whiteboard together. Yeah, it was really good. So then getting into wireframes, again, because I think the take part wireframes are similar to this as well. They're a little bit more high fidelity than a typical wireframe is, but I think that really just reflects the level of collaboration that we had with everybody on the team the whole way through. So this is what the wireframe looked like for Examiner. We feel like it's really, really important to do fairly heavy annotations of the functionality that's implied in a wireframe, regardless of how the level of visual fidelity and detail that's baked into it. And I believe actually in this upper area, you can see it says top story treatment CBD in design phase. And I think that actually was the result of a conversation we had where we weren't really sure how the visual design was going to affect this layout, but just in case we wanted the client to sort of be aware that color, proximity, chunking, all of these things could affect how that area was laid out. So we didn't really want to get too locked into that so early in the game. And so if you take a look here, that's the final design that ended up going to development. So actually another thing that's worth mentioning here is one of the things that they asked for us to do is to find ways to work elements of the printed paper into the website design. So one of the ways that we did that is, a lot of times if you look at a newspaper, you see that their equivalent of the navigation or the list of sections within that paper is really just kind of de-emphasized. It's like go to A2 for sports or whatever. So we tried to carry that through in the design for the site as well and really put the emphasis on the really large in your face top stories. The what's inside actually that came from what they put on the front page of their paper, correct? Yep. And we're gonna go ahead and scroll down with that ended up kind of looking like, because you can see here, this is a pretty extensive site. This wasn't your average front page of just like a brochure or wear site. This was, there was a lot of content going on here. There's a lot of different sections that needed to be populated in the front. Yeah, and speaking to that idea that we alluded to earlier about UX for editors on the take part side, that was really important on this project as well. So a lot of these areas where you're seeing, featured content for a particular section, editors could just kind of hover over that and edit that box or content module in line and swap out what stories were being featured there. So it was a really quick and easy process of assembling all these curated areas. So now I think we're gonna go into some common themes that we found throughout the two projects that, I guess they're kind of like tips and tricks that we sort of found as we continued through through the two projects and really working together. And I think the one that I really cannot stress enough is design a system, not pages. This is really great. I mean, at DrupalCon, I think that this is maybe something more understood than at other web conferences because of the way Drupal handles content. But the reality of the situation is, I think a lot of other content management systems and just the way, in general, we think based on the fact that we've evolved from the print industry where magazines and newspapers have been the common norm. You know, clients think in terms of pages. And it's really easy as a designer to think in terms of pages, but the extensibility and just the flexibility of Drupal and what you're providing your client, especially on a site that handles so much content and so much media, you really have to think in terms of a system. And so for Take Part, for example, we assembled a very loose style guide that kind of gave them the tools to continue using these styles forward if they decided to build out and change their site over a period of time. So yeah, just very simple colors, hex values, what a link would look like. This was probably about a five page document that we handed off to them, but just a guideline for them to move forward with so it wasn't completely, they weren't completely in the dark about it. And then, for example, we really thought a little bit more modularly. What we handed over was a system of boxes, styles that they could adapt. For example, our top five could very simply be changed into another block if they needed to. So another challenge that I alluded to earlier were authors. So authors aren't necessarily just Drupal users or even people, they could be an organization or a team of people. And this really differs from project to project. So on any publishing site, you really wanna have a lot of conversations about authors and how they need to be modeled from a content structure perspective as well as how they need to be rendered on the page. I think Take Part had fairly consistent treatment and structure of authors. They all pretty much look the same regardless of where they showed up. But on the examiner's site specifically, certain authors were sort of highlighted. Most of your very prominent bloggers are gonna show a like button or a follow button to follow them on Twitter, whereas a story that comes through from the Associated Press or is from an author who maybe they don't have a photo for whatever, there's a slightly different treatment. In some cases, they might want that author to be linked to an author page that lists all the content associated with them. In other cases, they don't necessarily. Cross promotion of content. Now, I mean, this is a pretty common theme when it comes to designing for media because everybody wants similar like content to be linked together. You want multiple page views, not just for the experience that the user's having, but there's also this added kind of business goal of advertising as well. So for example, here on the examiner, if you scroll down, we made sure that there was a close proximity to popular topics and also see near the content of the site. We talked a lot about where this content should be, but I felt very strongly that it should be in close proximity to what you're actually reading. Like content should be grouped together. And so that's why we really worked in this left hand column so that you could make sure that while you're reading, if there's something else that's important, you can really see the connection between the two things in order to continue. And then if you scroll down the page at the bottom, there was always more from the capital, which would be a little bit more of a highlighted area. Take Part was a little different. And the fact that not only did they have these all related stories that they wanted people to see, but they also had these actions. And actions really needed to be treated differently. One of the things that I think we really wanted to make sure of is that people didn't see an action as being an advertisement. We wanted to make sure that people saw it as being a related thing that kind of was worked into the story. I think the first time I really started digging into Take Part and what they were about, I was a little nervous about this action they wanted me to take part in. Was this something they were trying to coax me to do for advertising? But it's not, it's really part of what they're about. So making sure that that is worked into the content. So again, another big common thread is this idea of a life cycle of a topic. And I think the example on Take Part is a really good illustration of this. So they might start tagging content with something like food. And over time, as they are sort of realigning their editorial focus, they decide, food is really important to people, people are health conscious more and more. So they start to put a little bit more emphasis on food and they might stand up a topic front for that particular topic. And then we would want to redirect them from that tag-based list so that they always land on this page. And then once that topic builds even more steam, they might decide to produce a movie about it. And then that's when you'll get into setting up a campaign, which is basically like a microsite for that particular topic. And it was a really interesting challenge to build a set of tools that really allowed editors to kind of drive this evolution of the content presentation on their own without needing a whole lot of developer involvement to stand up one of these pages. So the next topic of commenting isn't necessarily a unique one in any way. It's just that we found that with media in particular, I mean commenting is something you're gonna have. And everybody, and in this case, both of these clients wanted to handle it a little differently. So you can see here on Take Part, we actually used the Drupal commenting system. And you can see that it was designed visually to really match with the rest of the site look and feel. But here on Examiner, we actually used discuss or discus, I'm not sure how it's pronounced. But I think one of the fears as a designer when you have the third party integration is how unique can I make this third party plugin? And with discus, we actually used Typekit on the Washington Examiner site. We were able to implement Typekit throughout all the comments. So it's very seamless, same color scheme, same typography. It really doesn't look very much different from the rest of the site. So advertising. This is always a really interesting topic as a designer talk about. And especially talking with other designers, I have a friend who worked on the post and I asked him about the Washington Post, I'm sorry. I asked him a little bit about his experiences and he had a very difficult time getting past the fact that advertising just put, was just a damper on everything. And I think especially going into the Washington Examiner, I did, I kind of had a little bit of fear in my mind about, oh man, we have to work all of this advertising in, but I really tried to embrace the idea of making the advertising visually a part of the design. Very small subtle things to make it less obtrusive. For example, you can see it at the top, you have the leaderboard. And then there's just the subtle shadowing that goes around the entire site to sort of chunk it and put like, to sort of visually imply that there's like content below the leaderboard. And also as you can see, there's this Macy's ad that was in the navigation. So going into this project, and I mean, all projects have requirements that you have to work around. And in this particular project, the advertising had been sold before we had gone into the design phase. So we had to work around specific things. And then one was that there was going to be advertising in the navigation bar. It may not be what we ideally want for the user experience, but they make money. This is actually a free publication. So this is how, this is their bread and butter. There wouldn't be a site without it. So you're trying to really make the Macy's ad that you see there in the navigation less obtrusive and actually kind of blend in a little bit more with the overall look and feel of the site. Yeah, I mean, I think another thing that we're hearing more and more things I've been reading are that, as much as publishers like to try to cram as many ads above the fold as they possibly can because those are the ones that are the most valuable, it actually causes, you get a ding from an SEO standpoint now. So that's the kind of thing that we spend a lot of time kind of consulting with them about. Yeah, I mean, I think as a designer, it's really easy to get frustrated and want to push back, but I mean, part of being a designer is solving problems and there's not always going to be a very, an easy road to solving those problems and working around advertising, I think is just a challenge that you have to embrace to some degree and make it work as best as you can. Yeah, even more so now that responsive design is becoming a much bigger thing. Yes, absolutely. So that concludes our presentation today on designing for media. If you would like, this is phase two tech on Twitter. Dave is Dave the Save on Twitter and I'm Samantha Toy. You can feel free to line up and ask some questions here if you'd like or feel free to also ping us on Twitter. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Have you had any issues in selling your process to your clients, a pushback from your clients saying, wait a minute, here I've already made some mockups for you. You don't need to go through all those wire frames and stuff like that. Yeah, that's a really great question. I think, I mean, we do have a standard process, but we have a lot of different tools in our tool belt to be able to adapt to the various situations that we end up finding ourselves in. But I think in some cases, clients will provide their own mockups or even their own comps and there's a lot of back and forth that my team does to kind of make sure that certain things are consistent and we've vetted all of the various implied relationships between content and all those kinds of things and click paths and all that from the UX standpoint. I think too, as an organization, we're very on point about keeping our message clear throughout the sales process, throughout the beginning of the engagement process. So clients are really aware of our process going into working with us. So a lot of times by the time they get to us, they sort of are already expecting this, but I think another piece of the puzzle is that we work very iteratively and the advantage to that, there's tons of advantages to that, but one is that you develop a sense of trust with your client, taking small steps that they're very involved in. So there is a, we get a good, get a good, great sense of trust at a certain point working through the process where they kind of know what to expect at the next point. Any other questions? I know that your style tile is sort of, I think the aim of it is to take a shortcut, if you will, to the copying process. So it's a little more targeted and it's a little more on, are you able to reduce the number of comps that you're creating in practice? Does it really work? Yeah, so it's kind of hard because the style tiles process, which I talked about today briefly, is really its own, I could go on for 40 minutes on it and I do actually quite often, that's where there's a site up about it, but the idea there is that it's an iterative process, again, getting the client to trust you and setting their expectations. And I think setting expectations is a really important part of it and especially with the responsive design process. I mean, the client, in reality, we're not going to, as designers, be able to mock up every single comp for every single device, every single break point. I mean, there's just so many things in play here. So setting the expectations that we're designing a style that will be applied to systematic elements throughout the process really helps them to understand that. So in the situation with the examiner, that, I mean, I'm not going to say it's always going to be this way, but examiner was, they accepted the comp, the first comp, no changes. Take part had changes, but they were iterative changes. There was never ever a complete redesign. So I find that the time-up front being spent really does make up and get you ahead. And you are presenting one comp based on your style style. Yeah, and of course we can edit that or whatever. Right, depending too on the client and the situation, I mean, I really hate to cookie-cut or any process. I feel like kind of having the skeleton that you sort of work around and being very agile around that skeleton. For examiner, for example, the first comp, we did the wireframing process for the homepage and the article page, but we actually showed the article page as the first comp. Yeah, the article page is actually way more important to them than the homepage. Yeah. Can you talk a little more about how you empowered authors to create those standalone pages and different layouts and the tools and level of effort that took? Yeah, absolutely. So I guess, I mean, the trickiest one was probably for Take Part, with those sort of microsite campaign pages. So we used a lot of different tools to do that. That basically would allow them. We used Context, for example. We also used something called, I think it was called a field box. So the campaign content type was, it had a ton of fields on it and from the old system, and we had to migrate that to the new system and create a new equivalent of each of them. We had a lot of conversations about whether or not that was necessary, but suffice it to say that even if all of those fields were populated, we didn't necessarily want to actually render all of them on the page just because they were stored there. So we created some tools that basically created a layer separation there so that you could place a box onto a page and then choose which fields, or which combinations of fields you actually wanted to render in that box. And we also, the simple campaign page was not a full-blown microsite, but there was the option to make it a microsite which would layer another context on top of it which the top navigation slimmer and a lot of those other changes that you probably noticed. I think another thing from a visual design standpoint that I've talked a lot with other designers about is this idea of lowering your expectations for how much control you're going to have. I mean, we're essentially giving control of how a design may look to these content creators. I mean, with Examiner, they can to some degree change the layout depending on what they're looking to do with specific campaigns and articles and stuff. And so, yeah, giving them a toolkit. Yeah, exactly. Sort of to my point about the breadth and depth of coverage. Because they were covering all of those different areas, not every landing page for a section looked the same. Some of them, if they weren't curating them every day, it was just a feed of the latest stories. Other section fronts had really prominent, prominently treated, curated stories. And if a section had a blog associated with it, we would also promote the blog on the page as well. I mean, this is one of the strengths of Drupal. And I, again, talked to other designers about this and it's really hard, because you want everything to look just like the comp you design. But the strength in Drupal is the flexibility that the authors and the content creators can change these things. So sort of going into it with that mindset and trying really hard to provide those tools and pieces that they can use. Hi. How closely do you tend to involve the, your client's project leads in the creative process as far as when you get down to the nitty-gritty of brainstorming and stuff, do you tend to keep them more at arm's length until you're ready or do you bring them in at the beginning? Yeah, so I mean, that's a big part of my process is that we identify the client stakeholders. And to some degree, I try and involve all the stakeholders as much as possible, again, to a degree. So if it's like, I'd say five or less stakeholders. Ideally, three is a great number. I think Examiner had five. But having everybody sort of on the same page knowing, okay, this is going to be your role and this is going to be mine. And we're going to work very much together on this. All of the designs and the style tiles and the adjectives, those are all things given to me by the client. And I'm sort of taking in what they're saying, acting somewhat like a, I call it like being a counselor or a therapist. I'm hearing what they're saying and I'm going to reinterpret it in different visuals. And I'll give back the visuals and we'll talk through it. And there's some sense of, there's some sense of consultancy there where I'm kind of recommending what should be really good for what they've given me. But there really is, when it comes down to style and preference, I think the client is involved quite a bit. Anything else? Well, thank you guys very much. I really appreciate it. Good to discuss. Have a great day. Thanks.