 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa and we're set for a first major conversation which is on corruption and of course corruption in Nigeria is a constant phenomenon in 2012. Nigeria was estimated to have lost over four hundred billion dollars to corruption since its independence and of course 10 years on you can do the math the amount has definitely increased. Now I recall that recently the country ranked 150th in the 180 countries listed by Transparency International in its corruption perception index for the year 2022. The history and impact of corruption in Nigeria is quite well documented but what about the political economy of corruption in Nigeria joining us to discuss this is Dr. Nnamdi Igboqui. He is a political economist, he's also an expert in corruption matters and I'm glad to have him join us right from the United States city of New York at the Big Apple and Nnamdi Igboqui thank you very much for your time. Thank you for having me, pleasure to be with you. All right let's look at the political economy in you know in Nigeria and the political economy of corruption. Will we talk about the political economy of corruption? What are we talking about here? Oh thank you that's a great question a great way to start. The the ability of corruption as you mentioned in Nigeria is well known it's well documented but the numbers are too vast to count the offenses are too staggering to believe sometimes. Corruption is consistently the explanation for Nigeria's seemingly unsolvable problems from economic development to social unrest but to understand corruption you must place parameters around it you must put boundaries on the investigation so when we refer to the political economy of corruption we are doing just that we're pointing at economic and political conditions that allow corruption to endure so we think about what are the constellations of political and economic factors that create this conducive environment for corruption. So we know that corruption occurs at this interface this intersection of public and private sector so political economy aims to examine how the political and economic factors inform the cause and explain the social consequences of corruption. So in Nigeria's context it also broadly formulates frames of investigation as internal or political institutions and external or economic factors and this is the same this is the exact frame that I've used to investigate corruption and research the political economy of corruption in Nigeria. Interesting I mean we talk about corruption we hear it being said there's corruption all over the world I mean some people even argue that corruption in the United States of America where you are based is is much more than what we have in Nigeria I don't know if you agree with that but you can speak to that and also talk about what exactly is distinct about corruption in Nigeria compared to other parts of the world. Yeah you are exactly right and I will not argue with that corruption itself is not specific to Nigeria let's make that clear it's not necessarily distinct to Nigeria but it is distinctive in Nigeria but let's take a step back right corruption is present universally across time historically and space geographically so historically whether you go to ancient Rome ancient Egypt medieval times revolutionary united states you will find corruption there's no society devoid of corruption to be clear but Nigeria is uniquely and simultaneously somehow the richest country in Africa depending on which metric you use and still one of the poverty capitals of the world so as a result corruption becomes this major explanation for all of Nigeria's development problems so in Nigeria's case corruption has become endemic to where it's not only accepted but expected and this is what's distinctive the logic of corruption in Nigeria has been so institutionalized and diffused throughout all segments of public life and private life that you have to ask how did this happen how did this become so distinctive and this is the interrogation that I've used moving forward to look at the political economy of corruption and I investigate this directly by explaining not the origin story of corruption because if you think about you know man and egoism and how he is continuously pursuing self-service that is not the argument here that's not the interrogation here but rather it's the development story of corruption that's entrenched in political economy in Nigeria's history so if we think about post-independent Nigeria or even post-war Nigeria there are two constants for the better part of the last half century right you have military rule or leadership and you have corruption now this association this intersection is how you use the internal political factors and external economic conditions to identify the cause and what I've done is identified a singular actor in Nigeria that I have termed the capitalist militant now what this is is a unification of an agent of military power an agent of political position and an agent of capital accumulation into one singular mantle of power and this is what's happened in Nigeria directly post-war or more indirectly post-democratic transition in 1999 so this triumvirate is distinct to Nigeria and Nigerian politics nowhere else do we see this intersectionality produced and reproduced over time yes we have dictators on the continent that you can point to there's presidents in Europe and in the United States that might share some characteristics but if I'm thinking about the the character of the capitalist militant they are multiple in power and whereas the others are singular in their articulation of power so what this means broadly is Nigeria has reproduced this actor this capitalist militant for over 50 years so when you have this nexus of power this particular agent regarding capital accumulation the distribution corruption emerges corruption evolves so to simplify the rise of corruption in Nigeria the distinctive nature of corruption in Nigeria revolves around the construction of this capitalist militant and this figures relationship to external global economic markets and internal political institutional change and by exploring this figure this concept we get to better understand the political economy of corruption in Nigeria historically and in a more present context all right last namdi let's take a quick look at the corruption index in Nigeria for 2022 I mean the perception index in Nigeria remained on change at 24 points in 2022 now if you look at 2021 it was also 24 points and 2020 was 25 2019 was 26 2018 was 27 27 also in 2017 and 28 in 2016 what exactly does this mean to be quite frank it means next to nothing in my estimation and I'll tell you why the keyword before you ran over all of those metrics across the years for Nigeria is perception we're talking about a perception index and although transparency international there's wonderful things around corruption and in putting together this barometer you have to remember that their methodology is based on largely surveys that are handed out and administered to business people and they're giving sort of this impression or their interpretation of how hard or how easy is it to do business in a place like Nigeria or a place like South Africa or a place like Brazil or a place like Botswana and based on that perception you now get these scores so objectively you can maybe get a facsimile of what it means to compare countries on a corruption scale but specifically to really gauge a country's level of corruption you have to dive in and you have to understand the nuances of what it means to be corrupt in that setting because certain actions that you might see exhibited in one country may not be corrupt on another certain laws that permit certain actions are not universal there is no normativity to corruption but what they've tried to do is create a normative scale so by and large it is a representation that gives you an idea but I would take it with a very very small pinch of salt because all it is is representing the perception of corruption depending on whose perception and depending on whose baseline of morality or normal activity that is being compared against you talked about the trying virus of military power you know political power and capitalism or capital power you won't call it as being that distinctive nature or representing a distinctive nature of corruption in Nigeria as compared to other parts of the world and you said that corruption in Nigeria is endemic it's expected and accepted so in other words it's a way of life and it is breaking this this this Bermuda triangle of corruption if I can't call it that is breaking that triangle the key to you know solving the corruption problem in the country and how can it be broken if that is the key or how can it be solved if there are other ways to do this remember that Nigeria has what many countries have used as a benchmark anti-corruption bodies we have the economic and financial crimes commission we have the independent corrupt practices and other offenses commission which other countries especially in the African continent and need in West Africa they've adopted such an approach for their own corruption fights so so what do you say to that how can we break that triangle so I will say broadly speaking there are initiatives there are transparency initiatives there are institutions that have been erected to specifically go after corruption to fight corruption to prevent corruption the level of success I leave it to everyone to assess on their own oftentimes you see that some of these institutions become corruption become corrupt in their own right so I won't speak to the prescriptive nature too much because again you have to kind of narrow in where you're dealing with and what you're dealing with but if I talk about this capitalist militant and this triumvirate as you put it I think that's a first key step in understanding it and then departing from it and this is what really links this election and our present in terms of what we can do and what we can understand in terms of what's happened in the past through the construction of this capitalist militant and what we hope to achieve in the present and moving forward so there's a very popular saying that corrupt society would always throw corrupt leaders and we probably might just you know link that to the case of Nigeria well probably it might just be a reflection of who we are because I mean if look at the practices on daily basis and our behavior you can say that we're corrupt I'd like you to show your thoughts on that do you really agree with this school of thoughts are we a reflection of our leaders that's an excellent question and simply put yes and I'll let me go deep a bit and explain what I mean because it's not a simple answer they say that if you don't understand your past you're bound to repeat it so in terms of the political economy the capitalist militant in Nigeria really transformed political power into economic power we need to remember that it's not a person per se it's a position of power right there's minimal difference between Nigeria's 20th century and early 21st century political era of executive power except for this veneer of democratic politics but you know that the capitalist militant has been embedded into the fabric of Nigeria's political ecosystem since independence this figure arrived post-war and has remained a centerpiece in the political arena in Nigeria I remember famously Goan said that the military underwent a misguided adventure into politics where military men were turned into statesmen at the helm of capital distribution now to get back to your question about society and this figure this capitalist militant and corruption that relation to capital is key right the military agent was transformed into a political implementer of development policy and mediator of development capital this shift from military power to political power to economic power now we factor in other aspects of the Nigerian economy other shocks like foreign and direct investment multinational interests with oil sovereign debt structural adjustment policies development loans devalued currency the list goes on and on what happened is that state institutions then became the primary source of resource generation and capital accumulation so this capitalist militant figure began to manage the state as a resource reservoir in Nigeria right the middle class and the capitalist class and the elite class then gravitated towards the state as a source for capital accumulation and to this day or in recent history if someone has a financial windfall you either say you know you don't necessarily say did you get a new job did you start a business did you win the lottery typically what you your mind goes to is what government contract did you get so this reservoir of this resource reservoir was created where the state is accumulating and distributing capital right what happened with that is that there was an increase in capital and there's an intermingling of the capitalist militant to civil society okay so instead of just being in one specific institutional lane it then bled through to politics to economics and capital and now to society and it became a matter of accumulating capital for status and social superiority so the behavior of the capitalism with militant became mimicked became imbued to society at large in terms of status in terms of elitism if you have power so in other words Namdee I'd like to catch you in there in other words you're saying that you know the behavior that we have in practice I mean the fact that people are behaving in a certain way which society would probably have tagged as corrupt is as a result of the system and structure that we've had over time am I correct that's correct not not exclusively but a majority of that behavior is especially in relation to the state and capital accumulation was reproduced from the creation of this capitalist militant absolutely so I mean I mean let's even come back to you know we're in 2023 we're getting close to the elections right here Niger few more days the elections would be here this something you know there's you know a word or a phrase that we have had over time and it's called vote buying and poverty and hunger works hand in hand so how do you describe that the fact where you have those who are seeking political office would you know entice the electorate to you know cast your votes for them in exchange for maybe material stuff or money at the end how then do we classify this is that still corruption it is still corruption in one word unsurprising and I'll tell you why we have to remember the age of Nigeria as a country we've only been independent since 1960 in the 19th century the United States which was over 100 years old at the time was famous for electoral corruption there's even a saying that during that time they used to turn money into whiskey and whiskey into votes which meant they were bribing the constituents to basically vote on the terms that they would state was beneficial or maybe not beneficial so this is nothing new unfortunately it's part and parcel with the democratic and electoral system but it doesn't mean that it's right it just means that it's an opportunity to be corrected and to shift that type of behavior but in one word it's unsurprising and in another word that yes it is correct all right so let's let's quickly talk about since we've gone to the 23 elections what should how should Nigerians think about this this whole issue of the political economy of corruption and you know how it's it's played out in the past and indeed in the present in relation to the forthcoming election yeah this is a massive opportunity it's a punctuated moment in Nigeria's political economy because for so long leadership has been defined not by elite people but elite positions right positions that occupied power were abused and appropriated so for the first time in a very very long time or perhaps ever Nigeria has an opportunity to elect leadership that looks a little bit different it starts to depart from that status quo from that monolithic sort of structure that has been constructed and endured for over 50 years there is a great opportunity dependent regardless of who you think they're respective of your favorite candidate there is a great opportunity to now course correct the political institutions in Nigeria and start moving forward in the manner that was intended in terms of leaders and not just elite positions of power so I would tell everyone to take this election very very seriously and inform yourself and participate but this is a monumental moment in the political economy of Nigeria because for the first time in nearly half a century we are looking at an option and options that allow us to move forward with leaders in a proper sense you know you know some people say you know but nothing will change you know because the system itself is built to it's built on corruption it's built to protect you know corrupt individuals those who are in the establishment those who benefit from graft you know with the leading candidates we have about four of them or if you want to make it three do you see a possibility of any of them if they merge as a president of Nigeria call it a wonderful opportunity um none of them has a direct link to the military even though one of them was a customs officer but do you see do you see a possibility of any of them really truly breaking Nigeria free from the reins of corruption looking at the system that has you know been put in place Muhammad Buhari campaigned on on the basis of the mantra of anti-corruption in 2015 and love Nigerians were tired of the regime of Jonathan Godok Jonathan and saw it as a corrupt administration looked to Buhari being seen as a no-nonsense disciplinarian of it over a military dictator from years gone by to come in and clean the system but you know the rest is history we'll let anything change after 2023 so I will say conceptually change is inevitable it's a part of politics it's a part of economics it's a part of social behavior change will come the level of that change or the incremental nature of that change is what's unknown is there a possibility I certainly believe that there is I really do the reason being is because when you think about the vestiges of what I just explained for the last 15 20 minutes they're they're starting to erode and it starts with the expectation of the public and what they call and demand for from their leaders so will it change overnight absolutely not we're not going to wake up in march and say okay everything is different or even next year and say everything is different but incremental steps and a pursuit of something different and a departure from what's been known is all that we're asking for to start moving towards that eventual target state again remember that Nigeria has been has been independent since 1960 and while we are a dominant player and a major player in the world economic system we still have to temper expectations with how we are developing and the trajectory that we're on can there be change absolutely will it be overnight absolutely not but it can certainly happen and this election is a great opportunity for it to start so I'm I mean less yeah before message comes up you know I would like to take you on that because um you know each of the leading candidates they've engaged in you know visits the culture here is you want to be presidents you have to visit certain persons who are seen as godfathers you know to to get their blessing and also endorsement as well and I think uh all three or four of the leading candidates have visited the major godfathers including uh former military dictators I'm talking about uh uh the likes of Lucia go Bassa and Joe and Ibrahim Babangida um I mean you have some a section just a very few maybe one or two of the presidential candidates not leading who um have accompanying on the with a on with a slogan mandate of uh fighting corruption and going after those who've stolen Nigeria's you know Commonwealth now none of the leading candidates as we speak has said they're going to go after any of those you know who've stolen or who are perceived perceived to have been a part of the problem like you've talked about the history um I mean that's number one number two all the leading candidates are engaging in political horse trading you know going to see Mr. A or Mr. B who is perceived also to be part of the problem we're talking about support me in your state give me votes from your state help me to do this and of course it's not going to be free of charge so won't these guys come into power any of them that win because there's a lot of post trading going on and back slapping um won't they come into power with their hands tied well it depends on your perspective right if I'm looking at the context of the capitalist politician we'll receive that intersection of political power military power and economic power in one we already see that that no longer can be the case with this election if we think about it as a core you might have a core that's the capitalist politician you might have agents that are circling or orbiting orbiting that core and then you might have a periphery that has nothing to do I don't know that we've got to the periphery yet but we're certainly in that orbit where that axis of power is probably going to slowly and slowly lessen and get less and less potent because of the nature of that position uh what you're explaining is nothing that has not been seen everywhere in politics politics and economics intersect traditionally historically and will do so probably until the end of time but instead other intersection that has become the igniting factor for Nigeria's corruption state because if you look at the United States we look at Italy we look at rulers across and presidents across the world businessmen and politicians have always sort of done this log rolling it's always been a logic between them but when you introduce another factor and it's a singular player a singular agent where you don't necessarily have to scratch your back you just it's one then you have other articulations of power that become dangerous so we're already departing from that and I think we'll continue to depart from that because the nature of what the institution is is evolving so again I do need to the last question of will there be change yes but it will be incremental so but I like you to quickly run through this I mean looking at the state of our economy right now do you think that uh as it is we're probably grappling with scarcity of the nair grappling with petrol scarcity I mean petrol is not available for the consumption of Nigerians and what have you so the lists might almost be endless do you think that these are the effects of corruption on us I mean what we're currently going through as at today well I will venture to simplify that it's just the effects of corruption you know there have been policies put in place there have been conditions there have been exogenous shocks the global economy itself has seen a downturn but for Nigeria specifically public finance and increase of stock and debt and debt servicing needs are paramount whoever you know ascends to that position of president will need to address those things it's not as simple as just pointing to corruption and saying this is the cause is it a helpful or is it a exacerbating factor surely it is when you have something that's so institutionalized it cannot help but is it the sole cause or the primary cause I wouldn't venture to venture to say that because there's other factors that play as well so I don't want to simplify because that's what I you know comment to that in the beginning that oftentimes all of Nigeria's development failures or shortcomings are pointed to corruption so I don't want to come full circle and then say it's cause of corruption but understanding the history of it and understanding how we can step away from it I think is a good step in terms of then being able to put policies in place then being able to look after increasing the revenue of the country then being able to address some of these macroeconomic issues to then help move Nigeria forward with issues of the Naira which is I mean I mean if you're in a position to you know formulate policies agree to policies for the betterment and development of the country and you're free to do that how do we classify all of this well that's just a failure and a failure and maybe the process or a failure in the confidence that we put into the elected official but again hypothetically corruption could play a role but I would not venture to now and say that that would be the resulting determining factor there there's too many things that play to the to just say it's corruption but we have to understand that the history and the role corruption has played and presently plays and hopefully in the future will play less and less of a role so but does this really have like an impact on an economy and do you think that all of this over time has an impact on Nigeria it definitely has an impact on economy if we bring it to a macro level even the perception which I you know spoke a bit about and gave my thoughts on in terms of these indices but even if you change perception perception sometimes does become real it becomes self-fulfilling so yes you can change sort of outputs and outcomes but it really starts with who we are deciding to put in that position of power and how that position of power takes shape apart from or in departure of what we've seen historically and that's the exciting part is that for 50 plus years we've seen one sort of mantle of leadership and power and now we get to redefine that all right we look at corruption in Nigeria and we're looking at also the fact that we live in a global world I mean what do you say is the role of international community in ensuring that not just Nigeria but African countries do not suffer from corruption I mean we can talk about the Swiss banks we can talk about the the safe havens where African dictators and leaders and presidents are able to store stolen money away and then when you know the countries try to get the money back we have to negotiate with these countries of course international community may I do agree they have a role to play and what role can they play how can they go about helping to ensure corruption in Nigeria and indeed Africa is as nipped in the bud the role that the international community can play has to be secondary to the role Nigeria plays for itself I'm glad you brought up in these foreign banks you know part of my study of political economy of corruption and the capitalist politician is a four-part volume and the second part is looking at capital flight you have all this money you have all this capital that's gone in but it leaves the shores of Nigeria what does that mean for development but getting back to your question we can't rely on the international community because if we really think about the course of economic development across the 20th century the international community and international organizations can be looked at as part of the proximate causes for why Nigeria had such unstable political institutions in the first place so I would say that for developing countries Nigeria specifically you have to super intend your own development so it has to start here are there ways and it means that an international community can help and assist of course without a doubt but that has to be secondary or even tertiary it has to start internally all right all right Dr. Nandik Bokeh it's quite interesting in sharing your thoughts with us especially from your studies as far as the political economy is concerned indeed corruption in Nigeria the 23rd elections are very important to this country and corruption you've said you know is one of the issues we should focus on we'll look to see you know what the candidates say in the in the days leading to the election indeed we have some questions about some candidates but you know nobody has been able to do anything about any of these questions I can give you examples for instance Peter Obi has had the Pandora papers issue you know and it's not been truly totally addressed if you look at Bola Mettinbo he's had issues to do with his age his qualifications you know and of course as an allegation of drug conviction in the United States of America which I'm sure you may be familiar with we go to Atik Abu Bakar I mean his um his his his dealings when he was vice president and head of Nigeria's privatization drive in 1999 following the return to democracy some of question that and indeed a recent audio recording that you know is alleged alleging that he was talking about um your shell companies for instance and the special purpose vehicles spvs so so you have all these questions regarding all these guys the top three of them and what do we do the election is just around the corner well again there's a laundry list and if we go through all the leadership of the past I think that list will get even longer so the idea is not that our candidates or our public servants or people in positions of leadership will not engage in activity that we might scratch our head or or raise the eyebrow to um this is sort of the way politics occurs even in the United States but the the question that you're asking is really for the public to gauge and compare and look for the leader that they think can move Nigeria into the right direction you know you're not going to have anyone who is an angel you're not going to have anyone who has a complete clean slate all of these things whether alleged or real the the the opportunity is there and the options are there for the public to decide and the exciting part for me is that for the first time that decision is going to be outside the rubric of this institution of the capitalist militant that we've seen from far too long so uh it is much of these are very important points that you're raising and things that need to be considered uh broadly I think moving away from what has been entrenched in the politics and economics of this country is a major step in that right direction that I've been talking about all right well thank you very much for your time and Dr Namdeeg Bokeh political economist um expecting corruption studies and of course I will look forward to discussing some more with you especially as you ongoing um you know research in this area is concerned and we wish you the best probably have you sometime soon before the elections and thank you very much for talking thank you very much for the plan this season thank you all right and uh we have more conversations coming up mercy I don't think the Naira is something we can run away from every single time we're on this program what are we we'll definitely talk about the Naira as we inch closer to the elections few more days before that elections we also anticipate and believe that you have your pvcs and you're ready to go cast your vote which is you know your civic responsibility we take a quick break when we're really torn we'll be talking about the impact of you know there's none of availability of the Naira on the health of Niger and Spice they would also good morning