 Hello people. I believe a lot of you have heard about blockchain and yeah, there are a lot of nice technologies But they have some issues as well and that Nickerson will speak about the ethical Considerations of blockchain She's from software freedom conservancy and I believe you will have a good introduction to the subject from her Thank you Awesome, it's great here to be here at FASDM and I'm really excited to talk to you guys about blockchain. I Am not a blockchain hater, but after 13 years of working in free software. I'm always suspicious of new technology Right, so we should always be a little suspicious and you know read the back of the box so to speak Which I guess is also known as source code But so I'm not a hater nor like a superfan But I have some I have some questions and some concerns and I know when we when we say blockchain I don't know how many people are in this room But I'm pretty sure that there are that many number of ideas of what we mean when we say blockchain So there are a lot of different things. I'm gonna speak generally and I'm not gonna call out specific coins or specific efforts but to think of it like I want us to think about the Technology in general and what heading in that direction means for us as technologists and what our responsibility is So the promise of blockchain is pretty great like most technology that people get excited about sounds pretty great on the front end of course Transparency and financial dealings and other dealings that sounds pretty great Like I know anyone who's like had a mobile phone has probably been like what the heck does this contract mean and why does it? Why do I keep getting these extra fees? So if you could have transparency with some of your other financial dealings That would be a real bonus the other thing Is decentralization I spent a long time working on new media goblin because I care deeply about centralization Decentralization I have a lot of worries about what the continual centralizing of online stuff means for us and you know having I mean science fiction fan I've read a lot of books where there's like three companies that control the entire world and when I first started reading those books I was like, oh man, that's ridiculous. That would never happen, but it turns out that's gonna be five So I have concerns like the decentralized power is a real bonus for me when we talk about the way that blockchain could work right and then efficiency like As a person who's done a lot of non-profit work, I've done a lot of office work I've done a lot of like work on systems that were designed by someone else who never intended to use them and I'm like, how come we have to type this in twice and it's like oh Because the person who designed the system is never gonna type anything in here So efficiency the idea of making mundane Transactions, especially mundane accounting transactions more efficient like Sings to my soul. I I imagine that there are office employees Which if we could gather up all of their wasted work, we could probably build a thousand pyramids With staplers probably, but you know what I mean? It's uh, so the efficiency part I like So well, we're gonna talk about the past and we're gonna talk about ledgers which have been around for a really long time One thing that I found really interesting is that Before like the 15th century We had like a huge mess as far as accounting systems like everyone had their own thing like Oh, I write on sticks like oh, I like to notch sticks. I like to keep stuff on paper like oh I like to write down like every day like what happened And then you just flip back through like the whole like last four years to see who owes what so this guy invited invented double entry accounting which you know, it's a It's not the most exciting invention. So like, you know, he's not like there's not like statues Like there are of like Galileo and things like that But double entry accounting was this huge early interoperability thing It meant that like your books and my books we could we could get the same thing going from one to the other It's like oh, here's the list of credits on mine and the list of debits on mine The same thing on yours as opposed to like what do I do with these sticks? How do I know that those mean I owe you money that seems weird So this was great for everyone who could read for folks who can read Written down ledgers are awesome if you can't read which wasn't everyone in the 14th century Then you still can't really look at the system of debits and credits and have confidence that the person Who is telling you you owe the money is being honest, which is a shame so that is That is a tricky thing So when we think about Replacing a lot of our existing systems with blockchains It's it's incumbent on us to make sure that everyone has access to it like a sort of literacy like a contract literacy Especially if we're gonna like transcend local government and have a situation where people are just sort of beholden to the system and not Without like some of the governmental controls that exist in their specific location Humor Abbey did this early Before Humor Abbey the rules of the land were at the whim of the king You could get brought in for any offense and And then the punishment could be anything Humor Abbey wrote down like if you steal you lose a hand if you kill someone Well, it wasn't I don't want to make it sound like it was this great egalitarian thing It was like if you kill someone who is rich you die if you kill someone who's poor you have to give up a cow It was it wasn't perfect But at least you knew what it was it was written down. And so it was like transparency so I think about the kinds of things that we might codify and And wanting to make sure that the folks that we codify for them We codify those things for are able to understand what we've done because one person's Like just business is another person's like very personal tragedy or emptying of their bank account or Even a massacre it could be like oh, you know for me. It's just business. So when I think about like You know what we might make efficient It's really important that like we understand what just business means for all of the members of that transaction in some of the things that we've normalized with Ledgers and treaties and things in the past are things that probably should not have been normalized So this this is a painting of the Treaty of Penn Which is the eastern part of the United States? So the native people are signing a contract here saying like yes all of this land you can do stuff on it Was there an equal understanding of how long that contract was intended to last or how exclusive that contract was intended to be Almost certainly not so you've got like but it's a contract So like you know later folks can go back and be like well your signatures on this This is a contract and you know, it's just business And they're like wait, I I don't understand So our understanding of what is up for grabs and what saleable might not match People that we're able to interact with on the other end so that and There's always a possibility for a real imbalance in power. So I talked about the mobile Contracts earlier, but there are a lot of things like that like I don't this room might have a higher than average number of people That actually read terms of service How many oh? Just a little higher than average. They're boring my dad's a lawyer. He doesn't read them either but but so for contracts that update over time The party who's drafted the contract and has the domain specific expertise is always going to write them in their favor So it'll be like oh the rate will increase according to this particular parameter that as the You know the company with like several hundred people employed Looking at this market understand very well how that will tip whereas the individual person looking at that contract might be like Yeah, I guess like more service. I pay a little more that seems okay like without really understanding the mechanisms by which that will happen And they could be very very efficient It could like boom because that's that's what we want from blockchain is for it to be very very efficient so we worry about the things that we might make normal and the Kinds of transactions that we could provide cover for in systems, and I know they're not all Anonymous some are some are not it depends on Well depends on how much you're willing to put in right? But it's incumbent on us as the people creating these platforms to understand what we might be making it easy for something to be normal and then You know so if we change the rules new rules mean new responsibilities, and and that means that we have to Do some sort of Hammurabi-esque thing where we make it clear what the new rules are And that's just the tip of the iceberg like stuff that I mean like just thinking about stuff that could happen Or that has already happened. We have like new kinds of things that could happen One of the things that if you're always talking about is like oh We're finally gonna like throw off the tyranny of governance of government, which is like okay I mean like so is this cat stealing? I mean it didn't pay for pizza I don't know any cats that have money, but like most of us would be like it's like a illegal activity I guess I don't care right and there are a lot of things in that category where it's like Yeah, I guess I don't care if people want to do that It may interest you to know that People have been using ledgers To falsify all kinds of activities like so this is an interesting example where in the US trucks they drive across countries is really big and They keep a ledger talking about how much they've slept and this is supposed to keep the other motorists safe So that everyone knows like oh well you should you should have slept this much so the but they keep two ledgers because You make more money if you go across faster and you don't have to split the pay for the trip with a second driver So what happens is they keep two sets of ledgers? So we might we might by having stuff that is a little bit more anonymized on the the inputs Be able to see situations where people could sort local law like and you might think like well I know how much sleep I need why is the government got to get involved, but when the the the balance on that on the other end is like 18 Miller going across the median and plowing into a bunch of cars and it's like well We perhaps have an interest there that we would want to keep in track so There are legitimate reasons for having government control on things and So so I worry about the things where people are like oh, hey, it's fine like I'm I'm good the government doesn't need to keep track of me I can just do these things because It doesn't always work so So transparency and control and efficiency there's always gonna be like competing competing interests here and I think that we may find that there are a lot of things that we agree on we might not agree on some things, you know like but Perhaps understanding where we've been and what's happening now We can extrapolate and hopefully avoid some of the things that we all agree would be bad so You know, what if we end up like accidentally coding a dystopia and I said that it's like Uses and crazy right like oh, we're just gonna have three companies from the world and it's like oh Didn't work out as crazy as I thought like what if we like I didn't mean to Accidentally code a new feudal regime where like everyone is beholden to like a particular company or You know, I didn't mean to accelerate capitalism so that we ended up with like people living in Underground bunkers and then like 10 billionaires. I think we still have 20 so we may be doing okay But and so and I don't think any I don't think anyone in this room if that was like a button that said like dystopia Plus a bonus of 500 bucks Not code the dystopia would like would pick the 500 bucks like it's never gonna be that obvious But some of the things that we lay down in technology at the early stages end up perpetuating so So this symbol is like an example of something that got used temporarily Just to go like okay. We'll put the at symbol in the middle of email And I had actually never thought about this but there are people that find it bothersome and in fact the person who first put the at symbol into our email has since Apologized she's like I'm so sorry. I didn't realize we were all gonna have to type this forever in our email for the end of Days so like when email is created it was like oh what's gonna happen? And it's like well, let's just try this for now and now we you know, we're never gonna get rid of the at symbol So it's so some of the choices that we make early on may have repercussions later on Like more serious ones like I actually don't mind the at symbol So where are we now? We have you know, we have folks nerdy folks using blockchain awesome You know and it's it's fun We have a lot of people doing Speculation which you know the tulip metaphor is like okay. Yeah but What I think about is like who actually benefits from speculation like I actually don't care if very wealthy people want to like play games with money and Lose like yachts and stuff to each other. I don't have a yacht. So there's not a whole lot of like. Oh, that's sad You lost one of your yachts but a Lot of these kinds of schemes there are a lot of folks who are susceptible to these get rich quick schemes like I don't know how many of you have aging parents where you've gotten to the point where they can't spend money without someone else seeing it But people who come susceptible to these things I worked at This was a gross job but I worked at a place where we called people on the phone and asked them for money and There was a company you could buy lists from of people who specifically are susceptible to get rich quick schemes and They're like, oh These people work for a couple years and then lose their whole fortune over and over and over again Because they just know they're never going to be rich the regular way so it's So there are people who can be exploited when there are systems that promise like great rewards Just read this very dense 70 page contract and then wait a few weeks, and you'll probably be rich So there's a lot of potential for exploitation there Another thing I thought was interesting is Because the end-to-end situation with black chains provides, you know a certain certainty of like what's happening in the network This is I pay and it's intended for people who are fleeing a country as a refugee So they can take their bank account with them And it's the key is their eye Which I guess is it's better than the situation where you don't get to take your money with you at all But it also creates kind of this gross weird market for eyes Because you can't like so your password gets hacked, right? Okay. You change it like You don't only do that once if you have two eyes And then you're out of eyes And like yeah, like I don't know about you but when I watch movies and they take someone's eye out for like a So so like I worry about the ways they're like oh, it's great like so like a Unholy mashup of biometrics and blockchain Some problems Had to point that You know, there's been a lot of talk about like hackers and dark web and people using blockchain to money launder and do all kinds of transactions Many of those people have been caught because they didn't understand the traffic analysis situation They're like oh, I just made my name like lead hacker money launder or 72 and But then like actual money goes into my bank account from some country. That's very far away from where I live So of course that looks suspicious So the you know the money lenders who didn't get caught I don't know. Maybe they're using Zcash now or something else or maybe they've they've seen the light and stopped laundering money nah, no one believes that but you know, so So people are using some of the blockchain systems for nefarious purposes, right? and Then I'm also I'm also kind of worried that most of the blockchain Or most of the Bitcoin money when we talk about those applications are in just a couple of places not quite one maybe and maybe nine somewhere maybe between those it's I think it's like three top coins, but You know, it's not like when I when I think about this promise of decentralization I wasn't picturing replacing like three companies running the world with like three Bitcoin companies running the world So we haven't quite gotten to a place where we have a lot of like smaller coins that are really gaining a lot of traction and Then of course the government's been spending a lot of time looking at like how can they use this blockchain thing? They're not they're like a little more savvy. I think the internet they didn't catch on for a little bit but governments largely understand the internet now and And they also largely understand blockchain and they've gotten really good at doing the traffic analysis for those systems that Provide encryption from end-to-end and figuring out how to find the end points and of course We need to talk about the massive power usage What we'll talk about a little bit some of the ways to ameliorate that but You know, and I know I know there's a couple of you thinking like but fiat power I mean fiat money also uses power and it's like yes But if we're gonna do more bigger complicated things and we want more people to be using Blockchains and bitcoins for their stuff then we're going to have massive power usage and we're gonna have to address that And some folks are like what about Quebec? They set up a whole thing over there by the hydroelectric thing Like hydro actually is well, it's better than nuclear power because it probably won't blow up and create like a Chernobyl like system, but Hydro floods huge piles of land and disrupts habitats displaces people all kinds of stuff So hydro is not like a perfect magic You know, we could talk about solar. I was thinking about You know solar block chains like that might be okay, right? But yeah, so the power thing is an issue So what we talk about we talk about improving black chain And and there are a lot of talks about it. They're like this is a meeting about Black chain Obviously, we can all go home. They fixed it No, but there are like a ton of groups that are looking at You know how to do smart contracts for humanitarian stuff These folks are looking at like policy especially in the European Union The MIT Sloan School, which is their business school. So MIT is largely known for its tech stuff So they have this tech and business like kind of experiment going on and then the Institute for black chain studies at Purdue So there's like there's so many different iterations and ideas out there like the the sheer volume of academic papers on Black chain and what it could do and what it might do is it's staggering. It's like there's like so much stuff But nobody actually has anything that I think addresses some of the core things with black chain, which is that Both both the proof of stake and the proof of work end up as this Very efficient mechanism to make it easy for the richer participants to become richer While the poor participants don't and so In my mind like the the thing that we are making efficient if all we are making efficient is a system where rich people get richer They don't need our help. They're actually doing really good already. I don't know if you've noticed I don't want to put a picture of like, you know, Jeff Bezos up or anything But like they don't really need our help getting richer. So None of those academics are looking at it from that direction. They're all kind of thinking about like, oh, well What kinds of smart contracts shall we have or like, you know, how shall we go and take take the blockchain to the rest of the world? So, you know, so I'm worried that we're not looking at the things that we ought to be looking at so the contract we talked a little bit about how Contracts if you're not like contract literate, which I I don't know how we ended up in a society with a whole Profession that is dedicated to writing dense non-human readable contracts. But here we are Even if the transactions are transparent and easy to understand if the contract itself is not easy to understand then we have problems The nodes This is another thing like like, oh, you can't you know, you can't game the the coins and the and the blockchain systems because You would have to take over 51% of the network Well, you can actually do that and it turns out now it only needs to be 34% of the network so the nodes like the idea that Individually they couldn't take over the network, but collectively they could so so there there are some issues there to look at And a lot of the a lot of the blockchain systems take that into account as like, you know Just a cost of doing business like the the network will be attacked every so often and we'll lose a chunk of money and you know So so there are people talking about how do we how do we spread that? You know system out with the nodes so that we're more robust and less likely to be hacked And then this one is very Interesting especially with some of the less like not the Bitcoin stuff But other places where you're like, oh, we're gonna do these contracts or we're gonna try and set up these You know systems that will help people in more remote places things like that the initiator which is that's like the beginning of the chain right so like You know if if you couldn't get things in and you couldn't get things out like nobody would really care about any of the Blockchain stuff because what what use would it be it would just be this theoretical exercise, but at some point it has to start in the real world and and so you have like a Like a situation where like what if nobody's seen the initial input so you've taken an initial input that maybe no one's seen and Then put it into a system that is then like, you know This is inviably accurate like we can guarantee that it is completely You know what you're what you're looking at is completely correct except for the very first step Which is actually a really big one so the land in Florida if you don't know this was like a you know people went to Florida part of weird part of the US That mostly looks like this actually not like Miami Vice we did there is that too, but but most of it looks like this and So people went back up to like New England and the Midwest and said hey, I bought land in Florida It's amazing and they showed them this picture of a beach and stuff And they're like, you know, I mean, it's too bad. You weren't able to get in on this deal with me I mean, you know, and then the other person like I wish I had bought band in Florida And they're like well, I mean I did buy two plots So can maybe sell you one and then they sold it like it became this huge thing where each of them sold You know at a upsell over and over again So like, you know, eventually someone went down and was like I own a swamp full of angry Alligators and I paid like half the cost of my house for it and The alligators won't even leave like so you end up with this like so what I'm saying is that the initial point From the real world that goes in and then becomes codified and certified and guaranteed to be correct is important So that's one of the things that we look at So the future so like, you know, I want us to think like what kind of future are we building with with these new technologies and You know a lot of people are like we're building this amazing paradise. It's gonna be fantastic And you know, I can't wait to throw off the tyranny of government and like sit in a hammock. It's gonna be great And I like hammocks don't get me wrong, you know, or or we're gonna be rich. It's gonna be great We're gonna have like money for all the things We could like build this new economy where we could fund niche musicians We could you know Fund the development and creation of like smaller stuff like crowdfunding but like with a little bit of different kind of responsibility In there some things that might be legal in one place and not in another or paid for in another place Like, you know, one place has good healthcare one place doesn't for instance We could get We can end up with jet packs. I was always sad that we didn't get jet packs I feel like we were promised jet packs, right? The reason we don't have jet packs is because Insurance companies are like wait what you guys are gonna fly around in three-dimensional space and you want what no No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that But if we could ensure Ourselves like all of us who wanted jet packs, then maybe it would be okay So that's like a thing You know, we might even be able to manage the three-dimensional traffic in real time in an Inviable thing because you know timing actually matters when you have a lot of people flying around in jet packs And that's one of the things that black chain is really good at securing and and saying like yes This is this exactly happened at this time, right? And so like yes, you can take your jet pack in there, which would be great Um on the on the darker end of it like you know, like I said before we with a potential to like very efficiently Create a situation where the rich get much much richer very quickly and then everybody else kind of suffers This is from a movie called metropolis where they literally everyone who is not a billionaire lives in the basement And they they like work at a factory and crank things for like 12 hours a day in great coveralls You know, we'll probably still be allowed to have like fun spandex outfits or whatever, but I You know, I don't want to live in the basement just saying It's probably gonna end up somewhere in the middle I don't think we're either gonna end up with the like, you know Amazing like redistributed wealth hammock wonderland where nobody has to work again Nor the Fritz Lang metropolis like, you know, except for 12 of us. Everyone lives in the basement But it's probably gonna involve more suits than we think like this idea of like, oh, it's gonna be this great you know like power to the people but Like I said, we've already seen a lot of like government interest in losing blockchain we've seen a lot of We've seen a lot of banking like traditional banks Goldman Sachs is like really interested in black chain And they want to like see how they can Make things happen there Which is you know, when you think about like, oh, we're redistributing power I didn't really think of Goldman Sachs is first on the list Again, they're probably doing okay with us Another thing that I think is really interesting is the like hybrid semi anonymous But like still connected to a bank solution. So So DigiCash is an early example of this that got thwarted because of the software patents on it Which I thought was really like, oh, yeah, another thing that we Through by the wayside because of software patents And that's not that there aren't software patents on other blockchain stuff currently But the ones on that we're holding DigiCash back have expired So what DigiCash does is it has a nut like they have a better anonymization on the way in to the blockchain but then you still have a thing where the recipient gets money and It goes into an actual bank so they can be audited and taxed and you know can't take money for weird illegal stuff so easily So those hybrid solutions might end up actually being pretty good If if people were building them there's right now There's DigiCash, and then there's a good new project called a good new taller where they're looking at that It has a ways to go as far as user friendliness. I'll say You know, but they're they're writing papers Like I said if if writing academic papers turns out to be the solution to the you know Utopia where blockchain controls everything then we're doing our best There's a lot of papers The other thing I like I think about is like the the socials So we have a lot of like kind of lifestyle brands like like Facebook and Twitter and Apple And some of them already have ways to pay within the app And so like so on the like terrifying things we should try to not have happened like Rewarding people for their social behavior for as if it were like some work in a blockchain system would be pretty terrible I already like It already feels to me like people are sort of fake on social media But if like not all people of course and not all the time, but If if we allowed a system where Fractional changes in behavior could be financially rewarded on social media. I think that'd be pretty gross or you know Other companies like Amazon that sell you things like having you be able to like do product reviews Because you can already do like a product review and get like a five dollar credit or like a lot of them have whoops Like bring a friend and you get like ten dollar credit So like companies already looking at these ways like how can we make it seem? Like how can we financially reward you for pretending to be more excited about our product and our company? and so like they're already like looking at these things but You know if we if we've got a lot of folks that are Not employed or underemployed then you know I don't want to see this like kind of feudal company town thing where Everyone is behaving in the way that the company wants them to behave so that they can get their crumbs and there's their things delivered that worries me so So like the idea of having like a having Work being done on a social network. I think is like that. We should not we should not build that There is some legislation that's looking at how to like control some of the blockchain stuff Unfortunately like Well, each country is a little different but Politicians tend to listen to folks who already have more money Then they do to individuals so a lot of the legislation that's being talked about would would just make it more efficient and get things out of the way for Larger players to come into the space and not necessarily support and bring in smaller players China actually just recently is looking at legislation I think it would take effect to the middle of this month that would make anonymous blockchains illegal So that's like not for the individual user that obviously is for the government's interest So, you know, so the legislation that's being talked about is not going to be like, oh sweet We're gonna, you know, nothing to like protect individuals is being discussed so much as like It's it really all tends to go more towards we want to make sure the government gets its revenue and its taxes and its share of the of the, you know, this whole thing that is happening There's even like a discussion Like it came all the way back around again where they're like, maybe we should turn our regular like government-issued money into like Bitcoin And let's see. I think Venezuela is talking about this I don't know if that could possibly help the situation there at all And then there's like a dude in Puerto Rico who is like we should just have a Puerto Rican like State-level Bitcoin Yeah, I'm not like I'm not certain that that person has like the best interest of Puerto Rico at heart Like it's sort of sort of like oh and then you know, but it would all be me Like I would issue these coins and then like basically I'd own Puerto Rico and it's like So like some of the government-issued coins Don't have Like it it works the whole decentralization Idea that was part of the promise and then on top of that it brings it back to this like weird like wait So now instead of like, you know owing the IRS we owe the government Bitcoin guy Like I don't know how that works but it's Yeah, again, we would have like this Currency being issued without having any of the accountability that we would have whatever, you know the diffuse responsibility or accountability that we have with governments currently and then we've been looking at some of the Some of this reminds me of some of the utility deregulation stuff where It's like instead of taking on any responsibility We're just sort of like let the bigger fish eat the smaller fish until there are no small fish So what can we do? so first of all Like all of the all of the technology on top of this should remain free and open source software I think that's really really critical. Like we can at least maintain that level of transparency. I think that's really critical Also the conversations that we have about Like oh, what should we like should we have Bitcoin instead of our regular fiat money for the entire like Island of Puerto Rico, like there should be community voices at the table and not just the person who's willing to fund it But this is the case in a lot of in a lot of ways like I think When we let government and business like decide What technology should be possible without community voices at the table? We don't end up with good outcomes I'd love to see us do more solar power I don't know if that's like it within scope for this room But maybe you'll get to build something that helps people mine with solar solar power and that would be great it would also kind of like Restore some of the historic inequalities that we have built in we're like weirdly the places with less Sun have more money So that would be kind of nice, right? It would be like a good evening out I also think that So one of the things that worries me when I see people talking about like disrupting certain systems and replacing them with blockchain is that We haven't even really done a good job of getting electricity and internet to people. So like so this is from the this is from the US like in the 1920s or so and The like dense places cities They all got electrical power right away because it was very lucrative to set up a network for dense densely populated areas And then like the rural parts of the country were like We would we've been left in the dark literally And so they ended up forming citizen utility boards and stringing up their own electrical power because they didn't want to wait for companies to do it And so they did this In a lot of different places it happened again with internet because like companies like Verizon were like yeah Yeah, we're gonna wire up all of Kansas. Don't you worry for folks who are not from the US, Kansas is pretty sparse So they did Topeka which is the like the little dense spot in Kansas And then they just sort of didn't get around to the blanker spots and they kept not doing it They asked for government subsidies to help them with this herculean task of Setting up internet and the rest of the rural parts of Kansas and then kept coming back every two years to be like It was actually really hard So we need more money from the government to do the thing we promised to do a couple years ago so So blockchain is built on it's a layered you can't have it without Electricity and you can't have it without internet So if we put a lot of important things over there without taking care of the lower layers then We are really doing a great job of exacerbating the difference between haves and have-nots in our society Obviously centralization if we end up with like three Blockchain companies instead of three other companies controlling all our stuff. That's not good. We need to have Decentralized network and that means we need to create a system where a lot of different entities can come in We can't just have like three coins or like one contract place. So it has to be a whole bunch And so and I think we're gonna have to support in the same way that we would support a citizens utility board or like a You know neighborhood mesh network people putting together their own, you know like kind of homegrown types of systems That would compete with the ones that are more funded so So I was giving us a lot of thought I have some more reading if you want to do some more reading on this and take a look at What you may do and in the second one in particular is about the the broadband Well, I Work at the software freedom Consumersy that just went by we have a booth in the K room if you want to come down and talk to us and then Going the wrong way, let's see And then I would be happy to take all a couple of questions from you and then we can break for lunch. Thank you Yes Thank you that Nickerson. I think we have five minutes for questions and answers. Please Stay here and don't disturb if they are questions. So are there any questions? Okay, I'll be over here for a little bit you like packing up if people want to ask a not for the whole room question Thank you again. Thank you