 It was sort of a small gap into people. And I'm really happy that there seems to be, that it's starting to aggregate conversations with people around the table. Just to let you know that this conversation is gonna be streamed on how long.tv. And so if you just let you know if you're coming to join the conversation or if you don't want to be filmed, there's a camera also if you wear. And enough of that, I'm gonna give you over to Andy. Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. How you doing? Good. Woo-hoo. How many people are hungover? I'm not, because I, I, I hold. Yeah. So thank you all for coming. Thanks to Megan and Mark and under the radar for keeping our partners for three years. I always like to understand the year for a set. I don't know where. I always like to give a special shout out to Mark because it was 10 years ago that I was working for him at PS 122. And I was like, I really wanna start a blog, you know, and start having conversations about the work. And he was like, okay, you know. And actually, I thanked MK because I got a little community engagement grant from the NPN that helped me pay to have the first website built of Culturebot. So thank you MK and Mark and Accenture. So today we're gathered together to discuss multiculturalism in a global context. Of course, all of that was deconstructed and reconstructed. I just wanna talk a little bit about the format. It's called the Long Table. And we do a sort of modified Long Table. The Long Table is an idea that was created by the artist Lois Weaver. If you don't know Lois, she and Peggy and Deb Bargolin started split bridges in the 80s and they're great, great theater makers. And she has been doing a lot of creating for more participatory democratic discourse. So she came up with the idea of the Long Table. We modified it. The way Lois likes to do it is it's completely open because we tend to focus on some really complicated and naughty question, naughty, not naughty questions. We like to get some invited guests to sort of join the conversation and get things going. But feel free, there are empty spots at the table. So feel free if you are feeling called to join the table and join in. The etiquette guys have been handed out. If there isn't a seat at the table and you feel really like you need to get at the table, you can tap someone and ask for their seat. They don't have to give it to you. And if you're at the table and you're like, you know, I've kind of like I've done what I, you know, or whatever your need to pee or, you know, feel free to go and come. The idea is really that, you know, we want it to be a conversation, not a sort of like, didactic, you know, presentational thing. Any questions? Quickly, quickly, quickly. Okay. Great, so let's start. Oh, everybody's biased at the table. Their vibes are in the program and they have name tags poking out and you're welcome to look around or if you wanted to sort of say, you know, but we're not going to do all of it. You can read people's bodies. Hi, so is everybody doing? Yeah, so some of us have a little bit of a head start because Nikke, Pusman, Kulaka, and I had a little chat at 8 o'clock to start talking about everything. I just wanted to sort of like tell everybody a little bit about what motivated this conversation to be and want to do it. And I think it was really two things. Like I was sitting on Berlin in May for the first time for the author talk about this big Peter Hussler and I was invited by the characters. And I was there with, you know, people from, you know, I was sitting after me with my hand and we were sitting at the table with a community guy or something and we were talking about like, gender protection and stuff. And this guy was in the mustache over there. You know, he's participating. I said, oh, where are you going? He goes on from back down. And like kind of like very, very perspective, you know, over the course of the day, about the time that people had been in the moment, you know, about the body and, you know, who had survived that, and you know, like the whole idea and being able to come all the way home. And I realized that like, but also being able to end an American individual's life and really feeling almost complicated feelings about like otherness and perception. And I learned what phenomenology was, which is the experience of the world. I mean, like I looked at those, but I didn't look at it. And it just really opened up to me that, you know, the conversations about multiculturalism that I personally, like, after like, are much more complicated sometimes than they seem. And then there's also that thing like being an American might give a way when Europeans come here and often feel like they sort of think we're turning the naive in our approach to multiculturalism and that kind of thing. And yeah, I think America, and I think there's interesting challenges about sort of like the challenges of what linguistically means in traditionally homogenous cultures like Western Europe, or persimmonist cultures, and traditionally heterogeneous cultures like the American cultures of America. And so I just thought like, great to get some artists and administrators and thinkers at the table sort of talk about some of these issues around sort of, you know, how multiculturalism as an idea can work in different cultures, how different ways we have worked in our field, as far as to incorporate sort of, negotiate the way we're read and the way we read. So I just sort of thought I'd get some people to be able to talk about those things and share the projects that we're working on and our practices, and, you know, I know a lot of the world is perfect. So, and I don't know Jonas's situation. So I just wanted to start and maybe see like what are people's, you know, I don't know why, you want to pick up on what we were talking about yesterday, what are you guys about? A little bit about connecting thoughts. The creative page, I think that's a great place to start, just sort of the creative page. So I'm going to cross your cards. Okay. Just give me a little bit of background. Right, myself and me then have worked with the Arts Council in England, which is the main funding body for subsidized art media in England. And we've both worked with what is called a diversity team. Which is probably a bit problematic, really. And we found it a bit problematic because suddenly we were supposed to do all things diverse and it kind of, there was a tendency of the organization to say, well, you do the diverse bit and, you know, just get on with the real world, you know. Funding the opera and the band, you know. But nevertheless, you can kind of lead in these institutions as best you can. But we found, I guess, particularly in the way the world changed after 9-11, we've changed this around ocean, multi-culturalism, and diversity, and equality. That we compound ourselves a little bit more seriously because, in one sense, what I would say was that they did the right to get us under running around these questions and to redefine what multi-culturalism was and not in the way that we were comfortable with. And we found the kind of rugby that had fallen under our feet, so we thought we had to respond. We've got a group of artists together and we're going to have to get into some transport. And we said, come on, let's try and really find what diversity and equality meets in an artistic context. Because, obviously, you know, if you work in a band, there may be some motion of diversity and equality. When you work in a band, you work in the school system and they have their own notions of what diversity and equality means. What does it mean by the arts? And so we began to develop what we called the Creative Coastal Diversity and Equality in the Arts, which was a notion of this, that somehow the conversation comes separate, that you had a kind of small conversation about diversity and equality happening over here, and then you had the grown-up's conversation about art, how it's made, who makes it, who participates in it, how it invades itself, how new forms arise, how even the world which you did today, how the rigid distinctions around art forms were going to be broken down, what these are in, what the visual arts is, what's the connection between them, all these kind of questions. This is a big grown-up conversation which is happening somewhere else. And we were kind of looking at a shadow problem. So we said, what we'll do is we'll part on, sorry about the military term, we'll part on a diverse attack on your art's law. So he said, what we're going to do is, every question that you talk about in terms of art, we're going to talk about it with diversity and equality in the heart of it. And when I'm going to talk about diversity, in human terms, we're talking about the diversity in the core context. That's not just about race and ethnicity, it is about gender, it is about sexuality, it is crucially about economics and what we call the working class and those kind of issues, those kind of issues of class. And so we said, let's try and create one conversation about art, what we can true value diversity in the heart of it. And the way that we put it was this, if there's a kind of, we believe, us we believe that diversity is intrinsic to the creative act. Like in one sense, different elements coming together, contradiction, new things are wrong, which challenge old things. This is the motor for the creative act. And therefore, diversity, in one sense, cannot be sidelined, should not be sidelined because it's incidental. It has value within the creative act. So we said, we don't care whether you want to talk about the history of art, you want to talk about how things are innovated, you want to talk about how art relates to the real world, you don't care whether you want to talk about Picasso or you want to talk about Balenci, we've got something to say around how diversity is integral to all those areas and all those kinds of people. And so we began to develop, and we're still developing, and today is a development of, that can be said to be about the preservation of diversity and quality of art. Well, that's great. Thank you for saying that, because that's definitely, I think I've not heard this. One of the things that, two things that come up for me is one, is that we have a similar problem, I think there are mistakes, where the conversations are like, the notion that like sort of diversification and sort of like integrative approach, like creative approach, is actually the heart of most work, most creative work. And, but we find ourselves having conversations, I think like where community greater, in terms of like diversity work in diverse communities, and it's like whether it's hard to like negotiate those conversations on the ground. And I think with, and then we also experienced, you know when I was coming back to Berlin again, sorry, you know like a curator from one of the major venues there said, well we just want good work. I said, oh, okay, yeah, all right, well so, and you think it's made by your friends, is good, and actually having this conversation about what is good work, and what is good. And I think that's a really interesting question. It's like how do we evaluate that? And I remember when I was in Portland, Nora, and you were talking about hearings, and you were talking about your background, your core, your dance background, and sort of like having this conversation. I was very intrigued and moved by you, so I was saying, like well, people were asking you about like what sort of training and referencing Western specific things, you were saying, well I'm not, that's not my thing, yeah, so. Well, I think as a person who makes work and who is doing the work, they can make it also. I think I arrived at a point where the work is consisting of what is expected. You know, I think in America, when I came to America, I was just, no, and quickly I started to learn that that wasn't enough, that I was either going to be black or I was going to be African. And that between black and African was sort of my salvation. And I had to fit into what that aesthetically, what that was, but I'd also come from the University of Zimbabwe, I studied law, I actually danced just for fun in Zimbabwe. So what, you don't have traditional dance background? No, I don't have traditional dance background, I just danced for fun and I was happy with it. And so, you know, going into the American dance system, which I was very intrigued about the training, but also quickly realizing that it's either of you do what the white Americans are doing, which I can quite understand what that was, or you do this modern thing, which seemed also ancient by the time I was getting into it, the grad homes and the positing modes, or you do what the African Americans have done, which is the black dance. And so, all of that seemed to me kind of like, whoa, my goodness, this is not me. So I think for me, the question of diversity and how my work is read and all funded is a hole in the system, right? So I have to fit into something. So I started to say, well, but I'm African, you know? And I think African being African is completely distinct from being black. And that the aesthetic is not going to be black dance because I don't know what that is. Really, I cannot with my make my nose and I won't. And so it's actually an interesting, I think, black hole for me, because there are many Africans who are willing to grapple with the issue of blackness and Africanness and say, well, you know, what I'm really doing is me, Norwich Bonner, all these things that have come into who I am make the world look like this. But I need to be funded to do it. So how do I write about the world? I just want to present it. So who's going to dare enough to present a piece like Miriam, which is just probably really, you know? So I don't know, I think what I'm learning is, that's my friend, and yes, that's what she tells me, is not to be worried about taking care of people. Not to be worried about being rejected by sort of the American dance, which whatever, what is that? Is that doing most kind of, you know, or being rejected by the black world? What is that? Is that doing it daily? You know? And just, you know, do what it is that I feel I need to do, you know, which is also, I am my own inquiry. I think I am really very much interested in what Africa has contributed to the world of art, you know, and to sort of stay in the course with that, you know, and I think that the diversity comes at this table for, you know, accepting Africa for a place of the upper god, you know? They're not the part of Africa, that's what that should be about. But when you see what is presented, you know, when you see what is funded, when you see the artists who are, you know, being written about, you know, you know, and questions about what is this technique that you're using in their technique, you know? Who is there, who is there, who is there. You know, I mean, so they are still, it's not a done deal yet. Oh no, it's the part of the thing, it's also a fundamental for art-making is that people are inherently uncomfortable with what is not known, and that what is not known is mostly what is diverse. There's a sort of codified idea of what we can say, okay, this is actually a good answer for that. This is theater, because it appears to be to be used in different African art, in different sectors, so even like the console looking at the artists, all of them on the ground, the representation of Africa in this country. But it's not so much to make it about Africa, it's just so happens that I am African. I think that's the point. I think the point is that we talk about diversity is really, are we not asking about an openness to look at all kinds of different forms of art and art-making, and then goes back to who presents it, which is sort of the game-keeper who fancens with other game-keepers who makes it, who writes about it, and who will be comfortable with your presentation of who you are or others' art, as an example of art, I think. I was just gonna raise cultural equity as sort of a more better approach to kind of analyze this, because the perspective that diversity just means mixing it up is too shallow approach to my perspective and what you're identifying from my perspective is cultural equity. How do we create systems which provide for cultural equity, and that there are multiple contexts that are available and respected and supported, and what is the framework that brings us to that circumstance? I think I'll try to do the language, I was gonna compare the language that we use, because when you're talking about diversity, you're basically saying it's the intrinsic, like what you just said, the intrinsic value of creating art, whenever you talk about diversity, that's often not what the people relate to. We're immediately talking about other diverse things. Well, and exactly, we can write up yesterday that I wanted to revisit that on Twitter. I wanted to frame it when I found it, because where did it pop up for me is complexity, and actually complexity seems like a more rewarding way, or possibly another way because diversity is a fact, like diversity in each, the world is diverse, and the discourse around it is simple, and it's about how do we have a more complex discourse and all of that. I ran with him across a blog last night on Tumblr that was the history of African representation on the continent that grew up from thousands of years ago, and there's actually, this person actually went through and found all of the various presence, and so I wanted to actually be talking about writing, and he would say something yesterday about criticism, and sort of look out, so I was thinking about what you just said, I was thinking about what we worked with Ralph, and Ralph's struggles about being a conceptual choreographer, like people wanted to be a black choreographer, and then also like the French conceptualists just like all of you know, I think Xavier the boy is not a choreographer either, and he used to be Xavier the boy, but you're having this battle where you have, you have a trained boy or a leader, so I'm just thinking you out, and so you talk a little bit about what the writing has been about. Thank you. That's how I mentioned them. Words of the art of console, as soon as a species that came up around, it's similar to what you said about your conversation where they certainly just wanted the art of all the leaders of the family that did this, and I used to run a publishing company for about eight years, and I worked quite closely to increase business and join opportunities as artists, and what they wanted us to come back to say similar to what you said about, I'm being basically judged through this very Western fence, and it was a consequence of that, and I guess when we looked up the organization, there was a lot of people who made this decision about what was good, that didn't have an understanding of anything other than what we described as a Western kind of group, the interest of this conversation, and it certainly came along with the last part of it, actually, and how did you critique what, how did you critique what, okay? It goes back to things like you had to have with our hands, and I don't end in English, but we wanted to be great at our kind of things. We had to have to do our best, how does anything remember what we've done? You may have your movies, or your plays of peace, your plays, you know, you're ready to go, but how does anything be recognized? It doesn't exist beyond that. I think you had to have a pretty gentle way to develop the voice of the people, and I think we did, we did something that showcased in which you can't be allowed to, we had to, it's from around the world, a tent that's about us and balance, and they critique the work. What's quite interesting is someone's critique in our opinion, maybe far more interesting to a critical voice that's coming out of England to describe what that may not be Southeast Asia, it may be coming from an African continent, but they get something, and it's really interesting to see the critique that came through, and I think also we need to start on what those kinds are, you know, we will all talk, everything in history and understand what that voice is coming from, but how do we know about England, what New Yorkers said, et cetera, and actually where is the special interest of some developing critique with new genre and new art form, and a bit of the new art form, because we're very rigid, theater, music, that's a bit more into the art form, you won't be considered more secondary, or you would think the community was more, which was always seen as secondary. So I think for me, what's really exciting about the meeting and my share with, actually, I felt, oh my God, it's always been the same thing, and really what I'd like to see, have more is to have more discourse, I mean we talked about this earlier about there is something good in the visual arts at our last place in this course, but actually within the forming arts, we really are thinking about it, talking about it, whatever space it's built, I think we've also really been able to value the work, we need to start talking about the work, but there's still needs to be a number of things that have to be done on the science, and it also supports the program on the side, the work in the career, it supports the work also in arts. You're not just going into a medium and feeling like you're the same art as doing, it's got that big of an exercise, you're actually supported by an infrastructure that can actually help critique you, mock at you, do all the things that you do, increase your audience, and all the things that you need to survive and to grow your practice. So if we're going to have, I'd love to also talk a little bit, because you guys have a visual arts network, you have the performer, just so everybody on the table in case you're exactly the director of the national performance network, which was started about 28 years ago, and now it's been working in New Orleans. And it was really an artist driven initiative, Agent White and some other folks. And so I'm going to sort of toss this back a little bit, because you did talk about cultural equity, and it feels like there's multiple pieces to this. And you guys have visual art, man performing arts, and you're working with Latin America as well, and that's become a really interesting, you know, it feels like, like when it comes to sort of trying to sort of build cultural equity on the world stage, sort of being heard, like not only allowing like the colonialismists to write about colonialism, but actually hear the voices out of that. So I just wanted to see what like, hey, tell us a little bit about what you're doing, and maybe some of your thoughts on what cultural equity feels like, what are the things there? Well, we're also working in Japan, and South Korea. So we've been working in Latin America, and in Korea for about 10 years, and about three years ago, expanded our global work into South Korea. And so I guess at the heart of it, I really believe in working through a place of values and intentionality. So if you don't, and so the concept of cultural equity, diversity, and you know, we do struggle with language, particularly here in the United States, and we can get bogged down in language. So that is embedded in MPN structure, and in our mission statement, in our bylaws, and how we organize ourselves. And so the intentionality of supporting multiple voices and different perspectives within the context of an organization, we are a limited, intentionally a limited network. And in our work around the globe, we are, we have a decentralized decision-making process, and that's one of the values. The National Office is not the one making the choices, but we are supporting our members who we have been able to structure to be represented on a lot of multiple voices and just perspectives. And I would add, just in terms of the diversity definition, that geography is also a major aspect of it. So just as a simple example, working in Latin America and the Caribbean, several of the countries there, Brazil, Italy, have very strong art support of infrastructures. In Central America and the Caribbean, that is not the case. So how we can address geographic diversity if we really want to work with those regions of the world and not fall back on constantly working with artists from Brazil or identifying presenters from Brazil to host U.S. artists because there's money there. And I think the money factor of being willing to spend your money in places where we're not going to be, where there isn't a lot of money. And I think that is also one of the economic drivers is another layer of the complexity of it all. So I go back to intentionality that if this is something you want to achieve and you've got to think through your systems and analyze your systems and understand the context of what you're working and apply that analysis to your structures. Maybe I should add something from a completely different perspective. I'm from the black market in Sweden and I'm a little bit afraid of speaking. Because I'm not black. First time I heard that. I find it very interesting sitting here listening and also taking my time for speaking because I'm quite afraid of speaking English because it's not my mother tongue. Already it becomes a question of language. I very clearly hear the Swedishness of my mother tongue and that's very painful because I grew up thinking that I would I grew up learning English and dreaming of becoming a Swedish rapper. And so I had this idea that I would open my mouth and sound like Snoopy. I thank you a lot when you say that. But I would try to make myself current and understood. But I was born and raised in Sweden. I'm my father from Tunisia. And I write a lot about Sweden's history and especially what it was interesting which was said about the idea of perceived homogeneity. I'm sorry I can't say that part. But because that's a comfortable place where we invest a lot of political capital in trying to defend the idea that we were once homogenous. And now we are not. And of course that if that's the basic idea that we allow for us to believe in that a lot of political quite dangerous consequences arise. Because what between one third and one fourth of our population left our country and came to the States. That's not a part of our how do you mean it's a nationalistic myth for example. You know there are a lot of stories being told in our country and I cannot speak from the Swedish perspective because I'm a Swedish. And that but there are a lot of stories that are not you know matching this myth. And therefore they become forgotten or untold. So I think I as a writer I write plays and novels and I tend to try to break free from these kind of dichotomies that we are discussing here with the use of language and sometimes it works or many times it doesn't work. But I thought it was super interesting to hear about the quality because I think that in Sweden quality has been used as a way to give I don't know what you would say like give a space to groups that was where the with the quality was used as a way to give space for some groups but never giving them the possibility to be there on equal terms. I'm sorry if I'm not using the right words. But I think that's just the concept that from a feminist perspective that's how a lot of plays for example in theater where they came to play like they were invited but they were never invited to the big stage and they weren't invited to be within the feminist framework or I think which created like some culture of feminist late or we had in Sweden in 2009 we had like a multicultural year where all of a sudden non non-sweets were invited to the number of cultural institutions but did that really change it? I'm not sure because everyone was invited with the idea that they had to represent the majority society's idea of who they were and it didn't amount to very interesting work because it's impossible to enter into a frame where your whole existence is being determined. So I think that what I'm trying to do is to break free of these dichotomies and especially in my country the dichotomy between who is a part of my society is not this very strong and I think that we can all relate to this from different types of thinking. In Sweden we have immigrant and non-english, sweet and non-sweet. That's very interesting how to break free from I think that I try to use language and I think they try to use confusion as a tool. I first played that was produced in Sweden but it went over to New York by the play company started off with a very historic play. I took an old play by it was a romantic 19th century playwright called Juna Scuba, our twist and I took his words and I put them on stage and it's super boring and no one understands anything. It's just a very, very boring play. And this is a very old trick but then I had two actors hit it in the audience at some time in the play just started discussing the fact that it was impossible to understand. And what did the rest of the audience well they defended the history even though it was so tricky to understand I'm not sure, I'm saying I'm sure what it says in that original play but it was very historic and it was a real play as the plays should be written. And in Sweden that came for small seconds of confusion not really being sure of where the boundary was between audience spectator or between actor or listener. That those small seconds when it worked it was super interesting to see how people went from the first moments of like trying to hush them trying to tell them we had to be spectator theater you know but also very quickly turning into very aggressive harsh racist slurps stopped with this everywhere in the film really or you know like because these guys were Swedish but they were not above long but the interesting thing was also in Sweden that created one reaction in Germany another reaction in France it was like a fist fight and in the States I'm sure we are going to get a lot of that it's like I'm also that the New York audience would be so unbaffled because they've seen this in many times we won't get any reaction but then the thing was put up in well it was actually put up in Tribeca very not too far from World Trade Center and I didn't think about that that also created another it took another cultural world or another cultural response and I couldn't know what would react to these people when they started talking to the audience and it was quite violent at times people were very quick to defend what was a tradition sometimes at one point I think someone tried to call the cops I remember once when I was there and I was a little bit done with the fist one through there was one guy the moment when someone said something to question what we perceived to be you know like the glue holding us together it was one guy getting up and it's like shh fuck up and being very aggressive too and I thought that that those moments of not being really sure where the voice is coming from put this as the way to start off and place the other with a dead voice representation but just a second when you're not really sure you mean that that opens up a lot for you well if I may just cut in I think it's an interesting question of the office with responsibility and then there's no question I think in the United States there has been a lot of demands put on the artists to have artist talks to have artist statements artists explain what it is that they are doing and of course being a dancer and also being black and looking at where I'm at it's um I have to say it's not so easy to create that kind of confusion people see my body and they're making up their minds about what it is the scripts so so so so so I think being black absolutely it's it's it's already a huge thing that I am negotiating from the moment I walk on I walk on to this stage and then the physical language that I am there you know it's floating who goes into some of these questions well what is she doing is this theater where you know you know start to sort of create confusion but I think people are not happy with this confusion there are a few intellectual worldly people who love it and maybe that's why I exist but I think there are all people who would like to have to substrate forward you know to you know put on your brass skirt and bring the drum or you know do square shapes I know exactly what you're doing this serves in usually in places I have to say you know I find that people are confused and then you know the presenter would say well it's your job to go out there and then tell them what it is you're doing and I have found that very very aggressive because it also assumes that you know the you know that the audience has no responsibility what's that I think you went out of town really really I think this is it does get of course more increasingly everything is back on track responsibility for finding the money to produce the work the everything is self-promote yeah so I think the reason for really good issue I think that yeah yeah I'm trying to but this idea like the work presenting the complications onto itself like I didn't get to see the last piece of the line that you were in the natural box and you know I think that so I kind of wanted to resort to a lot of little bitters you have a long series of presentations and because actually like how does it present how are the presenters dropping the ball if you will in terms of like building context building expect helping the audiences have more knowledge when they come in about what they respect and see even when they contextualize them so that you know you don't I mean it feels like there's actually a two-way street where the artists all the obligations should be both to a talk at the show but actually there's work that needs to happen ahead which is like well this is how total of this work if you've never seen it before or you know there are things that presenters should be dealing with and I think that there's a lack of risk taking on the part of presenters which is like you know they'll do the one really complicated work but then they'll worry about the box office or do a bunch of more familiar works with the bodies that are developing and another piece is that when I worked at PS 122 for me here it's like you know America, I forgot to say this tell us What's here? What's here? Yeah, three people for it At different times at different times different things would happen so sometimes some artists would bring an audience that had a very different types of people in the audience and sometimes you would have a part that would only bring that audience to see it so this idea of creating actually using like you talked about questioning the very like notion of what you like you question it by being in a box you question by having people talk about it as artists they're always questioning the assumptions of the physical space and the psychological assumptions of the space what are you saying that it's called the box office office right exactly that's that's you get a pain and putting the people in boxes that's what I'm saying that's what I'm saying so I'm so how do you go here and I want to try and do that thank you go but from the presenters but it's like but there does seem to be this thing which is that the presenters don't do enough to question those assumptions and yet they don't do enough to create the actual physical space that's analogous to the aesthetic spaces that artists create where you're actually physically putting people in objects decisionally embody different places you know and I just I don't just a question that I what you're saying is I totally agree I think that I think that the reactions from in the small example that I just that I just took from on my point is just I think that the reactions would be completely different if the not in this from Swedish context the the non-blond would be on stage at the beginning and this there would be like a blonde people in the audience quite questioning what was going on so I think that the question of body and how we relate to birds and bodies I think that's that's a very important and also the people who were kind of being rebellious were hinting to you when Pura said they were quickly being defined as outcast because they didn't know in the event but also class wise that I did they did not follow the they did not follow the conventions like I for example walking in here told one thing that one of the actors used to do he used to bring a glass of water and apparently in Swedish theater you can't bring a glass of water you have to put the water in the bottom and I well that's the rule that's the convention and the actor was just like well I'm very thirsty and the guy like and the guard he said no never you have to put it in the bottom it's just that I'm really thirsty no you have to put it in the bottom no one knew that this guy was an actor and you should have seen that eyes that the rest of the audience used looking at this guy it was just like I I I I I I I no no don't go to change the water yeah yeah yeah no no no no no I'm gonna take a walk yes if you want to say yeah because what's interesting is that you thought we were going to take this if you want to get your action in the theater yeah the natural passion you did get the same kind of reaction now yeah it all was in the function yeah and so I had to see yeah what's underneath that yeah and really very interesting is that the session I had done that yesterday issues it was not well-attended it's a very interesting session which is all I'm going to cover no But it wasn't great, well, it wasn't great all the years. It tells you something about yourself. I can't make it. But some... Yes. This doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. It happened to us here from my own day. And very interesting point. What you're going to understand is a lot of these arts institutions were part of the nation building. Yes. Yeah? Now, if you're doing it in London, or you're doing it in London, you can probably do it in Brazil, or wherever it was made, wherever it was the nation's data. The question of culture and nation is a very, very powerful, there's a very, very powerful link. So, for example, Catherine said yesterday that you have to realize that all these great big institutions that we have in America were founded so Americans could say, and I'm pretty sure that we're a civilization. Yes. So we built a clock perhaps. We'll see something when we have a show today. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And really, what's happening there is what Benedict Anderson in philosophy called is you're constructing an imagined community. Now, the problem is, at the beginning of the nation's state, the problem it is, and the institutions that you're reflecting in that nation building, it's a very exclusive. So therefore, at the beginning of the nation, actually, there's some people who are citizens and some people who are clearing answers. That's clearing American concepts in terms of slavery and self-support. And it's actually clear in a British context, I would say, in terms of parts, for example. So in some sense, what you're doing is you're changing. I think you're changing that notion of the direct relation between the nation's state and cultural institutions. Cultural institutions really are there and have been, they're there to try to create this imagined community. And it wants to put disrupts, actually, in American history. It doesn't really matter whether it's Paris, or New York, or Atlanta, whatever it is, the challenge you're, the challenge you're uncomfortable with is the extreme reaction of your audience or some members of your audience is because you're changing, actually, that whole notion of the relationship between culture and the nation's state. Therefore, it seems to me, there arises a question, how to win people out of slavery and the people in this room? How do we approach those institutions which were born for a particular purpose, which now we're kind of trying to rest sometimes in control over? How do you go about that without being incorporated into those institutions, assimilating into those institutions, your happiness being jettisoned by another label putting speakers upon you or expectations of who you are? How do we, what do you do with those institutions? Do we have to end down? Do we have to infiltrate them? Do we have to ignore them and go and do something else in places where you say, it's not an apparatus of authority, it's an apparatus of authority. It's always a key to the door. Who holds a key to the door is the most powerful person. And that's true, this building is a museum of modern art. It's all about art. That might be also a good example of the generous thing. I mean, I'm serious now, though. But I think... Oh, sorry, something interesting. Something interesting to touch on now is that, like, I'm a very young director I'm much less distinguished than all of you. I'm a director, writer, and theater. And something that I don't notice is that there's a certain expectation that I will direct and write plays in theater like a white man, right? Like, that's the expectation that people have of me. People like me, too, very much. They like me very much, too, right? But it's, you know, with John, the three-year-old janitor, and the Marianals, and stuff. You know, if you're only about three business and having relationships in the sort of context of the classical American canon and white writers and sorts of writing the direct. But I have a lot of friends who are black actors, and American actors, and a horrible thing at your old prime is, like, there are no rules. There are no rules for us because no one actually takes the time to write these rules. And when I sort of think about the institutions that, you know, you go on political.com, for example, and you try to apply to all of these large institutions that you think will start your career as a young person, it becomes quite clear, quite quickly that that American canon is specific to what they're looking for. In the context of, you know, what do we do with these institutions and how do we sort of prevent sort of the problem of, you know, how do you pass the gatekeeper? You know, I think a response that I saw around this one that you mentioned is that, you know, it probably is best to go off and do something else to actually create an alternate space that hopefully what you can do is you can continue growing that space, and that institutions over, you know, of course, the time will be forced to change along with that. You know, because you're simply refusing to do something that they expect you to do. You build something over a long period of time, and eventually that becomes the dominant form that the institutions then have to kind of get. Well, I think life is short. Yeah, I mean, institutions have been, you know, some of them, I feel really and maybe this is part of my growing up in the Middle East years and far ways, get in there and get the gatekeeper to stop. I want to be on the personal stage. I feel like my work would not come unless it's on certain stages. You know, I can do it under the table, in my house, in a loft somewhere, it doesn't matter. It matters that it is advanced. It matters that it is at Harlem It matters that it is at places where the power is. Yes, I want to be where the power is but I am not willing to jettison my Africanness. Oh, my class. You know, oh, lack of it. You know, once I get this, so I'm not willing to compromise. And I find that, you know, it is people who look more like me, but perhaps oh, less so. You know, like, they are more traumatized. Like, now you're going to get there and you're going to embarrass us, but you're going to embarrass us. First of all, as Andy said, I've been doing this a long time. I'm older than some of the institutions we're talking about. From Detroit, Houston, Texas. The service is going to help the community in New York City and now in New Jersey. Not only have I been doing it a long time, but I'm blessed to say that I have also been blessed to work all over the world. I've worked in Europe, or Asia, or North and South America. And I've been hearing these conversations for a long, long time. And I'm not going to lie, sometimes I get tired. I wasn't going to do this, but I had a wonderful opportunity to meet Hassan and DK last year. And they kind of re-inspired me to jump back into the frame. And then I had a great conversation on the phone with Andy, and he pushed me over the edge. There's a hundred pound, I also might say, in addition to all the geographical resources that I've worked. I've also worked in many different contexts. My first job in the arts, I've worked for an organization that had a staff of two-and-a-half people, that had a person who was on drugs, and actually that I wouldn't know if it was. And so you learn, it was probably the best experience I had ever had to do at New York City. You had to write a press release, you had to run to the airport and get the artists from the airport. You had to sweep out the I had to sweep out the facility and turn change to toilet paper. I had to write the brands, I had to do the contracts. And then the last job I had, and I'm not saying this to brag or boast, but I'm just giving you the context, was New Jersey Performing Arts Center, many people do not know, was the sixth largest institution in the United States. It's a hundred and eighty million dollar facility. It has an annual budget of twenty-six million dollars. It has a staff of over a hundred people. And the board sits around my tables like this and says, I'll give a million dollars to NJPAC if you give a million dollars to the city. So I'd like to start by saying there's not a one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, there's a seven hundred um, that we don't talk about. And the context that I want to start with is race and racism. Because we would not be sitting here in this room. We would not be talking about diversity. We would not be talking about multiculturalism. It wasn't for the fact of racism. And the problem I have is that we don't talk about it because all of us come together and think, well because I'm working with the arts, we're so enlightened and noble and liberal. We don't have to talk about race. Aren't we tired of that conversation? But we wouldn't be having this conversation if we were talking about four hundred years ago. If we were talking about when people literally thought that people were the fools. Not just words they threw at people. They literally thought people were animals. So going to your point let's talk about discrimination. Let's clean that up first. Let's clean that up first. And as some of you heard, and if you've heard me speak before I just have to forgive me if I'm reading myself. But there's a list and I want you to take out the paper if you have it. And as I always say take these words from your vocabulary. The first one we're going to start with is non-white. And I hear it yes, but I hear it all the time. I see it in writing. I see it in marketing materials. Somebody said it on a panel that I was on. Talking about diversity. And refer to herself as non-white. So let's clean up the language first. All right, so non-white is off the list. Minority is off the list. Okay, because we use minority to lump all the African and African American and Caribbean people in the Asian American and the Asian. Because they're not the minority, the majority. I heard I was in the big tank the other day and somebody said, well you know the different records are shifting. I said hell if they are, they have shifted. Yeah. Sorry. Demographics are not shifting. They have shifted. Selective knowledge, that. Take multiculturalism out of your vocabulary. I'm so sorry. Because multiculturalism became the euphemism for minority and those of us said we don't want to call them. Take multiculturalism off your grants off your marketing materials off of the way you describe yourselves. I am not multicultural. I decide who I am and mine doesn't. And my mother did not have a college education but you know what you taught me. And it's not about being politically correct. It's about asking people who are you. That's what we're really talking about. How do you define yourself? As Nora often speaks about. Okay so language as you mentioned. Alright so let's go to diversity. Let me just say it's not a new conversation it's an old conversation and so I don't want to just brow you talking about the same things over and over which I often do just by this book. 13 years ago and it should be in everybody's library how many of you know who Dr. Mark is the way that they go? You don't know it's a problem because you can't talk about diversity. I heard someone say recently I'm going to oh it's moving forward at that conversation last year the welcome conversation. Somebody raised their hand well I'm going to the first diversity happens in the United States and I have to raise my hand and say no you're not. Because the first diversity conference I went to was 25 years ago and was organized by this woman and she taught many of the folks who were not in this room should be. Dr. Mark is the editor of voices from the battle front that should tell you so then. Achieving cultural equity voices from the battle from the chief of cultural equity. So the problem with diversity and multiculturalism and all those other words is that it's still about the other. It's still about how do we get the and once again I'm just using the labels how do we get the black people in how do we get their audience is what we usually say how do we get the Asian people which really means how we get their audience how do we get them to buy teas how do we save our organizations with the color people so the other word you're going to take off your wrist is people of color stop putting it in your brands stop putting it in your marketing materials everybody has color Andy has color brand brand has color mk has color we are all people of color so stop using it to refer to anybody the other word you're going to take off your wrist is ethnicity because we use that now as the euphemism for race because we don't want to talk about race it's too scary it's too big it's too somebody might fist fight somebody might and believe me I didn't fist fight voices from the battle so then we will take this conversation to what Hassan and what somebody I'm sorry say your name same so because there were people who were gatekeepers who had the power diversity in this country became people who created their own spaces whether it was a dear friend and colleague Dudley cock from apple shop you don't know that organization write it down these are your history makers these are the folks who have been doing the work in this country until they don't even come to this shit anymore you understand apple shop Dudley cock the korean cultural center alternate roots alternate roots alternate roots in Atlanta Georgia these are our legends and we don't even know their names you don't know who they are we don't know what they've written what they said and they don't bother they don't bother to come to this shit anymore they are tiny and well they should because they have been on the battlefront and they have been in the trenches for a long time and they created the alternate spaces Phyllis farza and what am I trying to say Seattle Camposino in California write it down if you don't know who they are Seattle Camposino John O'Neill in Louisiana you need to know who these people are because they created the alternate spaces that make people in this country recognize that there are other art forms and other people out there creating incredible art and going back to this issue of quality culture knows wait how do I you should say excellence knows no cultural values excellence knows no cultural boundaries the problem it is is we don't know excellence we don't know what's excellent in Zimbabwe we don't know what is excellent in South Korea we don't know what the aesthetic standards are in most other cultures and countries that we claim to work in and that goes to my next point which is and everybody hears me say this and they start to groan and talk about it all the time research our field does not do fucking research I forgot who we're speaking about I'm so sorry we do not do research what are you reading what are you studying I don't accept press packages I don't accept DVDs I don't accept CDs I don't accept CDs I want to know what artists I go and see them and I need a round of world I find somebody who's going to give me some money to give wherever I need to go to see the artists that I need to see before I put them on stage it's called research and not only do I read and learn about the artists I read about their culture I read about their historical context I know the history of Israel when I go to South Korea I know the history of South Korea I know the history of the culture the various religions what's the religious and spiritual context that the artist is working in not even just the political the social the cultural context you don't do our homework you hear me you don't do our homework we're good deep listening shut up shut up okay last but not least I think is I'm also going to ask you this just came to me this week because I said I've been participating in a Catholic think tank challenge someone said at the university we're very welcoming we give access I said oh, access has been taken out of the cabinet access isn't enough access goes back to you said it first the gatekeepers the damn gatekeepers now what we're trying to do is not keep the game not give access that's like giving somebody the freedom you can't give somebody the freedom what we're trying to do is as much as possible in power but even that assumes that I have the power or someone else has the power and they're giving power so the word that I want you to put right now that takes that substitutes for all of these is S-H-A-R shape when I shape to say share I mean share then share ideas share creation share power share privilege share money while I'm here I'm letting people write share resources share money yes and resources and money are two different things and I learned that in the African stage when the Ford Foundation gave me a multi-million dollar grant to work with artists from the African continent and do you know Suleyman Kohli? yes Suleyman Kohli walked in the door and said Ford Foundation didn't ask me if I wanted to collaborate with U.S. artists he said you Americans you come around and you have all the money and you think you have all the resources I have the resources I have creativity or that's a creative case I have creativity I have a mind I have imagination I have a gift those are my resources if you really want to give me something give me a piano because that's what I do I need to work with Americans I need a piano so the last thing I want to say about sharing share with all the people all the time share with all the people all the time fact somebody else in the city nobody wants to share at all I mean I think there's such a long mystery of life it's mine but it's not mine it's us it's not a system of eternally promoting people who are inferior or being made all right folks listen to this not a student not a student you want to be honest now listen what I call forgive me I need to sound like a teacher but I have to say the arrogance comes from being in the battle the arrogance comes from having fought I don't do the ringing of the hands of the woes I don't want I figure it out I dock my eyes and I cross my teeth I could probably count on two hands the number of times I've been turned down for a grant because you know why? I'm always trying to think ahead of any funder I have ever met I'm always thinking ahead and that comes once again from deep listening so I just have to read to this after I've participated in this APAC thinking I want to point to you I see that you're calling the Deep Listening Institute calling you here on all of Varos there's actually an aesthetic thing with the nature of attention and listening but one of the things is that I think that sharing is actually we live now in someone said mentioning moving beyond that kind of thing I think that's really what's interesting to me now is that we actually are the challenges to actually think beyond oppositional structures and binaries as we move into a more fully networked digital world and things become more horizontal and less vertical how do we then get hate even when you said that do that so I think that it's not necessarily not participating with the institutions it's like it's both it's about building alternate structures I mean it's the thing is I'm teaching yourself you have to stress I think it's very difficult you're going to lose it you're going to lose your classes and you're trying to have a big institution that will slow you up you have to have some kind of power base you have to have a network that's the network it's pure it's like when you look at like before they shut down master it's pure to pure really good I mean to get into the institution it's like I live outside the institution I used to and then I got kicked out but I have friends in the institution that thought I was going to do this and it's like it's like sort of super old commie cell structure stuff and I've never unfortunately not lived in a revenue culture I'm grateful on a huge level on another level living in a very significant a lot but I do wonder about what is the power of our pure networks and what is the way it's sort of like how do we build those networks of people that have light lines that are decentralized and unstructured and are cheap to accomplish and how do you do that it's a capital one of the things that this is a super place of privilege because Europe has funded so much from work in America and particularly coming from New York historically like the aesthetic biases have shown up New York artists make work that Europe wants rather than making work that is actually reflective of what it's like to be an American artist and I think that happens in general wherever you talk about Brazil wherever the money is that turns the aesthetic biases and I've been one of these peer-to-peer artist conversations peer-to-peer writer conversations how do we use the new network world to build peer-to-peer networks that allow us to change those conversations to actually resist the sort of dominant aesthetic like you know I don't know what works that's only let me just say it's not an either or conversation just like we were talking about I'm left with more to say but I want to be a thing I want to be where the power is but I also want what you said about I'm going to build my own alternative institution it's not either or it's both and and all of us can do that that's why I get inspired with the tools the words because the words are the first tool the first way that we organize ourselves because mine is what I made that taught me first let's organize ourselves around the language let's start talking the same language in the same language so that we know what we're talking about but I'd love to know that's really Marcus Jones said I think this isn't the first language like that was like when I was in really what I mean they have the standards they have to seal the same issues I mean that's the same there are certain things in every language they mean the same thing maybe a little different history but there it are I guess what I meant is in talking to each other my personal experience is that sometimes you think you're having a conversation with somebody you realize you're having a totally different conversation because my Spanish is terrible and their English is terrible or it's even within the field itself I mean I was at the showcase where you feel and in the Netherlands it's quite a strong institution and it's doing very well internationally and the people that started that they were now saying they were fighting for that house literally the young majors were saying we don't need those houses we're not learning in those houses so it's already there is the difference in the conversation and I think in the vertical and the horizontal okay but that's when I see the new generation even the students they are not thinking vertically and I think we are the ones that cannot keep up with that I'm sorry you know we're talking about what doesn't work and they won't let me in I'm talking to somebody from Brazil I mean look folks we, in case you don't know where first of all I'm anointing all of you as smart people I'm anointing all of you as creative people we are smart enough to figure out our problems we are smart enough to change other people who don't think like us we are smart enough and creative enough to do our work no matter what the obstacles are we are smart enough and creative enough to do our work even though people are calling us with booms it's not the people who are calling us with booms that are going to win people it is not I don't care what you think I don't care what it looks like those are not the people who are going to win we are going to win and if you are afraid then get behind somebody who's not and just follow them there's one step okay so let me just finish I am anointing lose again okay you are going to wait you are going to wait you are going to find this again and not to unlock the thing alright here's to the crazy ones the misfits the roughness the trouble makers the round pays and the square holds the ones who see things differently they are not fond of rules and they have no respect for the status quo you can quote them disagree with them, glorify them but the only thing you can't ignore them because they change things they push the human race forward and while some of them may seem like they are crazy we see genius because the people who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do I am going to repeat that again the people who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do and now I am really good thank you goodbye to you we already won and I actually think the competition we are having is not about pandering I think it is more about strategy and thinking but the demographics have already changed in the United States the awareness that the world is more complicated and not a limited area is already shifted it is more about us strategizing knowing that the sort of legacy structures are slowly moving forward to change how are we, if we are already living in the world as it is you will adapt we are changing we are changing it is also important that my opinion is that what you just said is that that happening in 1988 59 cents of people were white people voted to run for the election 2012 white people voted to run for the election that is the future that has arrived and it is going to be the shared bag the shared bag it is still opposition it is going to be people of color are taking over they are going to take over there is more on them they need to organize there are only different places but I think it is still possible it is still possible we don't want to do such we don't want to create a case for diversity the creative case for diversity that is what I think is so powerful and what we as artists can be so powerful is it is not thinking in us versus them yes it is out there but by us it equals them and our work that is what I am curious to find out what you guys discovered is that creativity in itself asks for diversity so it is not I kind of don't want to talk about raising about all this other stuff I think it is much more intrinsic in what unbalance I want to talk about diversity about no balance for example or dissonance that is what artists do represent community I also think what artists do well they do all kind of stuff I feel like active participating in art even as an audience member being in the audience is participation and what we are doing and it goes back into the system we are actually building model communities like little temporary autonomous zones that sort of like the world that we believe the way it is when I come to witness Nora's work I am participating in this micro world of possibility she is performing possibility and helping me move my mind to a more expansive place and when I listen to jazz I know really free jazz I am being called to enter this psychological aesthetic space that is open to possibility and the state and era is beautiful for the flaws and for the liveness so I think that I think on the slide it is almost like a figure idea in society it comes back to the computer I think in order to be open to that jazz in order to be open to that dissonance you need to be fearless and I think as artists generally we are fearless people and that is how you need to get out into the world because how does power work it still exists here I think in Spain it is about an idea it is not just about transition of one group to another group you look at South Africa you see experience in that you can argue about what is the economic action that holds your power in South Africa but transition from a white character system to a black character system actually that whole debate came up around different kind of data actually from my very viewpoint of brown man for us it has been a great discipline in terms of how you have some full field of promise of race for example but obviously you have done that yes because exactly it is about the point because actually in the royalty section I am going to take my inbox it is this mass movement that is going to arise which is a question of networks among that there is something on that of course I think it would be on that I am not criticizing around that I am criticizing around that I don't think anyone would get on that he was a man I am a man we are all people we are all criticize people but there is no got out and you think that is a human side you think that is a good program you will put the fight in the summer we will also be trying to do it clearly but it is a question of ideas it is a question of structure today in terms of spaces he is around the question of ideas he is not around the question of transition to one group into another group because actually the majority of people will not feel the change as a social committee artist which is what I have at my heart actually that is what I am interested in that is really what I am interested in so I think we have got these services a little bit deeper I am curious why there aren't more African immigrants that come to see my work I mean that is something that I am really really fascinated by you know why they cannot come and see my work so there are whole questions of economics time factors etc etc and what is my role in that how do I get to those people ok now living in Brooklyn do I go to every single bar do I go to every other bar I feel like that my work is complex but I think I am engaged with as much bigger as I possibly could but I am still not able to draw people who the institutions want to be able to draw so what is missing what is missing and I feel like this is some of the frustration in this kind of combination is that from a presenter's perspective I can tell you I will share my experience and I have seen this happen with cultural at the agencies here is that people who immigrate to America tend to I have seen this in multiple copies and for instance some countries will support contemporary work that investigates the sort of like challenges of sort of identity and comes from that place a lot of the communities here want work that reminds them of that is familiar from the place that they came from it's hard to imagine it's nostalgic can you tell us some of the regions I mean even in history it's like it has no bearing but it's the actual truth of human experience I feel like it's been seeing it for 50 years and I think that the Portuguese artists are like my embassy only funds bought because they don't want to see my contemporary work I think that what you're discussing is actually a thing which is a big issue when you live in a world where immigration and diaspora is actually a condition that most people share but I think until that changes the question of power and we're free to do the work that we really want to imagine because we're not being ambassadors it's not about you we went east I went east and Malika they were easing their accent canteen last night and that's where your audience quite was they had some canteen for five dollars and then they got their accent more than the street that's where your audience is I mean I would say you should go there but that's where your audience is the notion that they even make a living between that easily and one of our institutions to come to see you I think that's an interesting question for the institutions they need to be able to identify those if you're going to have money they want to see things but I also think this we talked about where our new ideas in general people with new ideas I think in old culture and if you get a new man sent out that this phrase gets different that it's not about the tracks of the people so maybe as a pioneer in the world or a senior or someone who is true to himself which is already a daring endeavor there are not many people curious about what would be the tracks but the key is the key I'm going to say this but I want to echo the sharing I'm going to answer that I'm ready but we have this venue and a country house called MC for almost 30 years we were funded structurally by the government and the city council but we got a house last year perfectly and the reason why we did that is that we wanted to divide our own state our own being and in order to do this we created our own institutions in the United States in which we started to have sharing as our main goal so what did we do last year we developed our own organized our own conference it was called Mariah and I and we decided that the purpose of this of this conference should be celebrating ideas celebrating views celebrating perspective in order the other way around all these conference act is always talking about it's always an attitude about the problems we are dealing with but what about the celebration what about you know celebrating our own people like what you were saying the book you were talking about is a great way to battle the present really to connect with professional development with young artists emerging artists and connect them with these and call them icons and celebrate what we have done already and you know it's a really powerful tool of empowerment and I really believe that there is something that's lacking now the discussion about culture there's something really important I talked about deep listening I can say the conversation should be about race I said the context is race if you don't want to talk about race you should not talk about race but that is not what I said so I want to clarify the context is race let's also stop creating the other we're also creating the other in this conversation right now those presenters those gatekeepers those this that we are all in this together and one of the things I often say about diversity is if you're just putting people on a stage that is not diversity let's be very clear I said but if you're just putting people on a stage for those of us who are at the center that is not diversity so let's talk just about from a percentage point of view and then I want to get to Laura's point okay folks if your programming is already diverse because most of us have figured out how to do that if your programming is already diverse then your board should be diverse if your board is already diverse make your staff if your staff is already diverse make your creative partnerships diverse if your creative partnerships are diverse make your cross-sector relationships diverse what do I mean by cross-sector? what do I mean by cross-sector? yes okay but that one is in a conference where somebody is doing a cross-sector to make sure why are we working with people in the military? why are we working with people who are representatives? why are we working with people in the health profession? why are we working with biologists? why are we working when I go for a whole host of lists because it has to be and includes that we can't sit here and make everybody else the other because we will sit here and like this is we are preaching to the choir we are talking to ourselves we get tired of preaching to the choir because going back to the sun first point deep listening I didn't know what we need to take notes because we don't listen well diversity is not just the color of people's skin diversity is all the people all the time diversity is all the people all the time and sharing and going back to Dorn's point about how do we I want to okay so talking about us having the power when somebody says I just heard somebody that did this oh this was me in New Orleans to the college of MK they were presenting Kyle Abraham somebody not jumping Kyle Abraham Coyote Curb he just got his a very genius fellowship he was representing at the the warless contemporary arts center and my director said I don't know anything about this Coyote Curb I can't sell the tickets and he said not a problem then you only get half your salary this month hello you need to go in like Bill T. Jones used to do and say this is I want people that look like me or I don't want anybody that looks like me I want people there from the military I want people from the church down the street because if there's a presenter who wants you in your space then in their space then you have the power and don't forget it you have the power but there are artists who think they don't I'm gonna do you have the power we gotta go thank you very much check out the bios power all around click the buttons that work