 We are here on sexual exploitation of minors in Hiddieville, so, you know, the bills work. And I believe there's a new draft. Is it, what is it, just for Michelle? I've never got anything from her. No, okay. So let me, let me find it and close it. So, until, while I'm doing that, let's see. If you want to join us, please talk to us about your work and why this bill is so important to me. Great, thank you. I'm going to go here. Before you get started, Matt? Yep. I've been here. I'm proud of that moment. My son worked for the city of Seattle Police Department. Oh. And he just started out of my catch. Yeah, I've met several people from the Seattle Ikex, so. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did he say he'd asked for it or anything? No, he just, he just started, he just went full time. He did like a month internship, that thing, a few months back. Somebody else got done and they, they picked him to. It's really rewarding work. Yeah. Morning. Morning. So I can just give a brief history of the Ikex and where it started. So in 2000, in 1998, actually, the OJJDP Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention got grants for local and state officers. There were, there were 10 original ones because they realized there was a real deficiency in state and local law enforcement and their ability to investigate internet crimes, specifically internet crimes against children. People who would offend on children were obviously moved to where children are, congregate to where children are, and at that time children had the first entries online. And when someone came across one of these crimes, it was, you know, the law enforcement response is really inadequate to try to investigate that. Grants came out to provide equipment and training and then education about how to investigate these crimes. And Vermont was a part of one of the original 10. And at that time it was called Northern New England Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force and it was Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine had gotten together to create an Ikex. And the lead law enforcement agency in Vermont was Burlington Police Department. And that continued until 2008 when Vermont broke off and became its own Ikex, the Vermont Ikex and that was led by the Burlington Police Department up until 2015 when just the volume of complaints and the amount of stuff to track became too much and they wanted a statewide agency to take it over and OJJDP and all the statewide partners chose the Vermont Attorney General's Office to be the lead agency for the Ikex. And I was named the Commander at that time and I'm still the Commander now. And the central mission has stayed the same. There's basically like three legs to our stool, so to say. One is investigations and that has broken down into proactive and reactive investigations. The reactive investigations are by far and large cyber tips that we get from the National Center for Miskin Exploded Children. So any electronic service provider, be it Facebook, yeah, Google, any of them, if they come across sexual exploitation on their platform, they have to report that to the National Center for Miskin Exploded Children. They then determine what jurisdiction the case should go to, the complaint should go to and there's 61 Ikex now across the country which have obviously grown quite a bit since the original 10. Vermalog just has one, but some states like Texas because of its geographic size or Florida because of its high population has several Ikex throughout it. And so that's assigned to one of the Ikex and we investigate it. And we also get complaints from police departments that aren't equipped to handle those complaints or the public and from DCF and from other areas. And then proactive investigations are where we're acting undercover online, either trading child pornography. We don't actually provide it, but act like we're going to and receive it from other people or about child luring when somebody is getting on and trying to lure a child, go on and pretend to be a child. Then the other, another leg there still is forensics, which are computer forensics has just blown up over the years. You can imagine my phone in my pocket is bigger and has more storage than my first computer ever did. So the amount of just the terabytes of data that we have to sift through to find the evidence now is astonishing. So that's one area. And then the third is education. And I've always said we're not going to arrest our way out of this. We really need to educate the population. But it's really a misnomer because education is a huge component. And I believe in it. We partner with Prevent Child Abuse Vermont and fund three different programs that they go give in school where they go in with a six week long course and teach the teachers how to continue that on after they're gone. And education is a huge component. And I said it's kind of a little bit misleading is nowadays are the, the offenders are going after much younger and younger children. A lot of our stuff now is infants and toddlers. And, you know, you just can't educate your way out of that problem because they're extremely vulnerable. And, you know, you can't. So with education, what are you doing teaching like the kids internet safety? One example is this, you know, kids, a lot of times it gets younger and younger, send nudes and what seems, what they think is age appropriate at the time where they're talking to somebody that's really not a kid. It's an adult. And they befriend them become really close. The child thinks that, you know, they can tell this person anything. This person convinced them to send a nude. And then it switches really fast into what we call sex distortion where they start extorting the child for more and more usually videos and pretty graphic and gory details, obviously the sexual part to it. And then, you know, educating them that that's out there because a lot of them have no idea. And then we also educate just on basics of, you know, cameras. Be careful. Everybody, you know, throws their laptop on their bed. Kids a lot to do. And there's a camera on there. And you can get rats. They're called remote access trojans that you can send somebody an email and then take over their web camera and then take pictures of them without even knowing we're on their web camera. Just a lot of different types of Internet safety talks that we go give in elementary, middle and high school. So that's the three different components to ICAC. And again, there's 61 across the country. We work in concert because many of them spread across geographical boundaries, of course, and jurisdictional boundaries. So we, where I may have a victim in a case here in Vermont, the offender could be in Seattle at the end. We work together in those cases. Or there could be multiple victims. Or we could have the offender here and victims other ways. So until we work in concert with the other 61 ICACs. How many people in the department here? So there's just two of us full-time. So part of that history lesson I skipped over was, so the astonishing fact is up until 2012, there were no full-time people working ICAC cases in the state. So basically they were placed, Merlington was the lead, and there were other affiliate agencies. Today we have 14 affiliate law enforcement agencies that work with us on this, but they do that in a part-time capacity. So historically, everybody did it in a part-time capacity, meaning there were full-time law enforcement officers who had a full job to do, but on top of that they volunteered to be trained and assist the ICAC and did that on top of their regular duties. And then in 2012, the Attorney General's office hired the first full-time ICAC investigator and then soon realized that they needed to and devoted another person to it. And now still today we only have two investigators that are full-time. So everybody else is assigned to a police department and we provide some of them overtime monies to work with us and others just volunteer their time. The police departments volunteer their officers to help us and they do it on a part-time basis. That's 14 agencies across the state, both we have state, federal, and local officers on our task force. So there's two full-time. Right. How many short are you? Not including the 14 agencies. Right. So I've always said, so you have to realize Vermont is a very small population. So I think a staffed ICAC for officers would be a supervising officer and four detectives, four other officers with them. So you need really five to do this job. We're months behind on our cyber-tip complaints. We basically shut down the proactive side of our ICAC at this point because we're just getting inundated with cyber-tips. I have some statistics here just to say when we took over the ICAC in 2015, just in cyber-tips alone, lost my place when people were here, there were 126 cyber-tips in the year that we, the first year we did it. Last year we received 402. So that's only over a couple of years. We increased 219%. And that's not just a blip on the radar. You can look over the years. It's gone. It's a steady increase in cyber-tips that have come to this day. And there's also the same line for cyber-tips that they call them domestic cyber-tips, cyber-tips that go to the U.S. They're all just increasing exponentially. And there's a number of different theories on why that is. I think the electronic service providers are getting better at patrolling their platforms. There's been a few electronic service places that have really been taken over by child pornographers and it killed the platform. And no one wants to be that next platform that gets killed because it gets taken over by people that nobody wants to be around online. So they've gotten better at patrolling their platform and they're making more reports about when they find it. Hi, sorry, I'm on a little vlog going on this time here. The partnerships with other jurisdictions, let's see, the Justice Department funded, I think it was Sullivan County in New Hampshire and there's a partnership with Wyndham County. There's some of the departments in Wyndham and Windsor counties working with the New Hampshire side because they've created a whole facility for that. Have you? Yeah, I know what you're talking about. We work with the other ITX. Would you be able to share a little bit about that, the partnering that goes on regionally? And we have the same thing in Vermont. So in New Hampshire, they've recently created quite a good forensic lab that some of our Southern partners are utilizing because it's geographically easier to get the electronics there than it is to get them. We utilize primarily the state police lab. So state police computer crimes, like all the electronics and training that they've received has come from ICAC. So like in the state police computer crimes department, all those computers are ICAC computers that they're using to do all their computer crimes analysis with. So they provide a forensic leg of our stool. So the state police provides the manpower. There's four people there that are trained as forensic examiners and then we provide them the training and they're providing the equipment to do the job and also pay overtime when we call them out to do the search warrants, to do previews on scene because if there's multiple people living in a residence and we've tracked an IP address to a residence, we then have to figure out who's behind the keyboard. And one thing that we don't want to do is to provide people with their electronics when they had nothing to do with it. So we try to sort it out on scene and have an electronic expert come with us that can say, you know, this computer's clear and we can return that. And New Hampshire does the same. And I know that Browder World PD has been using them and Browder World PD is one of our affiliate agencies as well. So they've been a long time affiliate agency of ours. Because their work goes back as far back as 2010. They had two officers and one detective that specialized in that area, Don and Brad. Yeah, and Eric Johnson was one of them. He just retired. And Greg Eaton, we were just down there on the search warrant last Friday actually. And Greg Eaton is another officer right there that's at ICAC. We just actually sent him to a forensic school and provided him some new software to try to do cell phone examinations because everything is moving more and more mobile. And they're different than examining a computer. So you figure out where the house is. What if there's multiple people using the computer? Right, so then it comes back to good old fashioned police work. Part of it is we'll do surveillance, watch the house, see who's coming and going. We will, a lot of people, even if they try to use a fake name, they use a lot of same information of their own that are real. And it's surprising how much you can or they will make a fake email. But then to recover it, we'll use their real email as their recovery email. So many times if you keep following the chain of information and keep investigating, we a lot of times have a good idea of who's responsible before showing up at the scene. And so business is like Google or whatever. They will send information to, it's like a national. Yeah, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, NecMEC, is the acronym. So what would they do that kind of, that would be half a guess maybe, maybe not as far as they would figure out that this certain person is from Vermont? Yeah, so there's a priority of how they assign them. And that, so they will all go to an ICAC somewhere. That's how they'll all get dispersed as to an ICAC. But how do they figure out to go to Vermont versus New York versus New Hampshire? The primary way is IP address geolocation. And so geolocation wasn't built for our purposes. It was actually built for credit card companies because early on in the internet people were exploiting credit cards quite extensively. And they had no idea that this was being ordered from another country. And they said we have to get a hold of this because the credit card companies were just taking a bath. So geolocation came up of IP addresses. And so basically you order something from Amazon and you know and you're like I agree to your terms and services and you click that. One of the things that all the big companies are doing is capturing not your personal information like who you are, but just where you're located in your IP address. And that goes into a third party database that's tracking where IP addresses are located. So generally an internet service provider is going to regionalize their IP addresses. So you can predict with a high degree of accuracy that that IP address is used by user in the state of Vermont by comparing it to online traffic and where IPs have been found. And so occasionally we will, so basically they do it first off by IP address and if there's not an IP address wasn't gathered what did they provide information? Did they provide a phone number? So many apps are cell phone based now. So if the phone number started with 802 we'll get it to start the, someone has to start the investigation somewhere. So sometimes an IP address will be like on a border town we'll actually fairly consolidated communications instead of it being in Vermont. It was actually by user right across the border in New Hampshire. In that case we've started it. We've subpoenaed the internet service provider for the subscriber information and when we find out that it's in New Hampshire we then package up the case and provide it. We have an online portal to do so that all the ICAC shoes, we then give the case to New Hampshire, ICAC. And then they continue the investigation so we get them from New Hampshire, New York, Massachusetts when they're on the border sometimes they just come across one town over. But generally they're pretty accurate by IP address and most, a lot of things have IP address except for more apps that are moving towards phone number based apps. But again, you can trace phone numbers. If you ever find that or would it, when a flag be raised I guess if kids were sending something to kids so we get those cases as well so among those 400 and some odd cyber tips that we got some of them are because at the end of the day the electronic service provider many times doesn't know who the actual real person is. And in that case we refer to DCF, we make a report to DCF and we're not, once we realize we have to make sure that it is child on child and that it's not adult pretending to be child on child and as soon as we realize that it's two juveniles we talk to the parents, notify DCF and move on because frankly we don't have enough time to do our cases and I know that I think it's chapter 63 or one of them there are misdemeanor crimes about that but we're not going to pursue that. We don't have the time nor do I think we should be putting our energy towards that. So there's two of you that work from on how many are there in New Hampshire? New Hampshire has quite a few but I don't know as I'm sitting here now the total that they have but it's a Portsmouth police department that runs the ICAC for New Hampshire and they have three or four from Portsmouth then they have is it Clarendon PD they have several that have devoted full-time people to the ICAC several large police departments across New Hampshire so that they have more than a handful of full-time officers devoted to ICAC But did just taking the officers out of it there were the police departments out of it how many are there like Oh here in Vermont? No like there's two of you in Vermont Is there like Yeah just from Portsmouth I think they have four or five and then so they're the ones running the ICAC like we run it over here they're running it over there but their affiliate agencies have provided them full-time officers as well we don't have that and the only thing else I also left out was Mojo he's an English lab and we got him because we had one summer where there were four cases where a thumb drive well one of them was a microSD card and the other three were thumb drives were just crucial evidence in a case and they were all hands-on offender cases where one of them was we'd gotten a cyber tip from synchronous technologies they managed the online storage for Verizon wireless so somebody was storing child pornography in their Verizon wireless account online storage account and synchronous had found that reported it and we went we were serving a search warrant there and when we're on scene like I said we have somebody reviewing the computers right there we found a computer that had child pornography on it and when you plug in a thumb drive into a computer the computer and the registry the computer will track that this is a PNY thumb drive or whatever the brand is the internal serial number of the thumb drive is so then we'll look have we found that thumb drive and we had seen the thumb drive plugged in like the night before into the computer and file names indicative of files of child pornography were moved to that same drive letter that the thumb drive had been named on the computer and we had not found the thumb drive and we had 12 officers on scene because we had officers from the state police the local police department assisting us and we kept scouring this place for the thumb drive but you can imagine if you take your house and you're given some time to hide a thumb drive in a house it's an amazing thing to try to find it's needle haystacks in Ariel so long story short after about four hours of still searching for this thumb drive the guy miraculously actually gives up where it was and frankly even though we are competent searchers I'm not sure we would ever found it he had a very elaborate hiding place for it and on that thumb drive were videos of him molesting his very young autistic daughter and we would have never known that he was a hands-on offender or that his child needed services if we didn't find that thumb drive and we had three very similar cases following that same summer one involved a micro SD card and you know that's about the size of my pinky nail here it's incredible to try to find in a house and I had heard of these electronic service electronic detection dogs and when I first heard about it I thought that's gotta be crazy like how can they find computers that had been in the state police and had a tracking and drug detection dog in the past and I was like that's gotta be impossible but it turns out Connecticut State Police actually did the research on it and did all the hard work and they had a forensic chemist locate taken all the electronic storage media and isolate what chemicals are in here and what chemicals are only in electronic storage media and my understanding is they found like six chemicals that could be used to train dogs but two of them were determined that would be safe to train the dogs with and everybody's chosen this one chemical and so in Connecticut State Police imprinted two dogs two labs on that chemical and then it turns out it works they can find electronics and we got Mojo following that summer I said we just need to get one of these dogs because it can be the difference between saving a child and not saving a child and so here's Mojo we got him from Todd Jordan Detection we trained the dog that was used in the Jared Fogle case he was the subway pitchman that was found to be exploiting children and he had trained the dog that was actually used to find his stash of stuff so that's where we got Mojo from that's why we use him so basically we use him as an extra level of protection so we conduct our search warrants just like we normally would and officers search the house and once the house is determined cleared we then of electronics that we think we then search it with the dog and probably about a third of the time we find stuff that was missed and it's again not that we have incompetent searchers it's just a daunting task to try to clear a house of such small devices and many times they're not even hiding the stuff from us they're hiding it from a significant other and so and there's quite the extensive chat rooms online about how to get away with this stuff so they're always inventing new ways to hide stuff there was a big thing going around at one time on there because we're monitoring that stuff people were saying just put it on a thumb drive and put it behind your receptacle cover and held that cover on their wall and we actually have found a few that way so you can think of all the places you can hide a house is pretty daunting and that's why we used the dog for that so there's six chemicals I think you said again this is a rough outline this has been a while since I've no that's fine but the dogs are only trained for two so all those chemicals are in there they determine two of them are safe to train dogs but the others could have had detrimental effects for the dogs to start out with and imprint the dog on that imprinting a dog is just sorry if you're comfortable sorry it's extremely friendly but he's not good with personal boundaries oh my gosh he's a lab yeah we've been really lucky with all the dogs that we have but also it's fascinating there are various circus dogs that the state police I misunderstood there could be one of six all six were in there he's trained on one and that's contained in cell phones hard drives SD cards thumb drives after we've searched we then go back through and just search with him just to make sure we haven't missed something because again it could be the difference between saving a kid and not saving a kid thank you so much thank you good job thanks to the dog I like Mojo I haven't met him before you go away your opinion on what we're doing with the bill so these changes does everybody have the most recent draft? sorry if you want to speak to the changes yeah so all these changes that are proposed will solve real life problems and they have real cases that go along with them one of the big ones nowadays when this law was written streaming just wasn't something that was even possible on the internet with the speed to the internet unless you wanted to wait hours in between minutes of shows so the possession law now has a big hole in it with people that stream from websites some pretty nasty child pornography and then that's not under the current law wouldn't be possession and that access with intent to view would solve that problem another problem is in the definition of sexual conduct it was missing many things that are pretty reprehensible that we come across quite a bit adult males ejaculating on infants and that wasn't contained I'm sorry to be crude that's just what we face and that wasn't contained in the definition of sexual conduct which was a big miss and would be now with this law also the simulation of sexual conduct you have very young toddlers with their open mouth inches away from and that wouldn't be captured before and will be now these are solving real world problems and are really necessary to protect children I think that pretty much covers both the changes the with or on a child is one of the reasons for that accessing with intent to view and these changes here will save children at the bottom line so I assume what we're trying to catch up right now very soon we'll be obsolete and we'll have to the way the technology is changing that we'll be behind the times we have to you just don't know what's coming around the corner one thing that we do do is we meet quarterly as ICAT commanders across the country and we'll all meet in one location I'm on we have different committees that we're on the committee I'm on is emerging tech and that's what we track is what's coming around the corner we meet with industry and find out from them some behind the scenes views on what's what's supposed to be coming around the corner so that we're hopefully not behind the next lag and then so when when we find something that's gonna necessary to change the law we try to try to get that ahead of the curve do you feel that the industry is doing their fair part that's putting out there like a Verizon or an APT or something like that yeah we've had we've had our ups and downs I think they're doing a good job at the present time the attorney general's office has had to take a couple of the electronic service providers a couple of large ones to court over different things one was the not allowing not providing content on search warrant so we'd serve a search warrant and Google was one, Microsoft was another it depended on where they stored your online content so if they stored it on a server overseas they were saying that they wouldn't provide us the content which would mean we couldn't actually figure out who was behind it and we couldn't make the arrest which was a little bit ludicrous when Google moves your data all over the world globally within seconds and it was basically when we would serve a server with a search warrant they'd press the stop button and see where the data was that that second and if it was on a foreign server they wouldn't provide it to us but that since it's all been cleared up we actually the attorney general's office actually won in court and then it got the data from Google and then when we were doing the same against Microsoft they actually spearheaded the cloud act which was federal legislation that came through and solved the problem so it was a little over month that really spearheaded a change that was needed nationally cool I don't know if you have the answer it's over here maybe the chair so is there a process in place where I know you get together with your colleagues or whatever you know new things are happening but what's the process for you to get information to us so you know we can possibly instead of going through some big changes like we are now is there maybe we can set up a yearly report or something like that where we can make these small incremental changes instead of having to go through that's actually a great segue into the differences between draft 1.1 to whatever and what we're seeing today and the question came up is to why is this a committee bill why wasn't the draft in sooner and I think it just shows how sometimes these cases are so challenging and things go quickly and so David do you want to address that in the draft? Sure. So the only other thing I would add about electronic service providers is we have some small internet service providers in this state that don't log their IP addresses which is a huge problem so we'll get successive complaints from electronic service providers large electronic service providers will say like Facebook will say this person is has made a fake account compared they're not themselves and the only thing you have is an IP address to track the person and an email address that was potentially used once to create the account and then thrown away and you get the IP address and you go back to the electronic service provider and they say we don't log our IP addresses so then there's no way to find out who the person was and most of them generally do it's only a handful of really small ones that don't and I don't know anything behind it but it's a real problem in trying to track these people So these abusers probably figured that out after a while? Well that's their game that's their game and obviously they don't do it intentionally to thwart our investigations it's just a just a problem that we're up against Thank you That was great Good morning David Chair also the Attorney General's and I'm a far less interesting witness than Detective Raymond this morning so I'm going to keep my remarks brief and just talk about the differences between the first version you reviewed and this version to summarize those differences essentially all that happened was the proposed new crime and the proposed new penalties were eliminated and this bill really focuses on what I understand is the most essential changes that our criminal division really need to make sure that they are able to get at some of this very severe behavior in the modern technical environment technological environment so that is a really quick way of describing what happened here and we just wanted to make sure that we have a bill that's straightforward understanding it's a committee bill wanting to have something that's straightforward streamlined and gets at the most essential issues and ongoing report or something I think that's certainly something we could set up and submit to the legislature I don't think that would be a big burden on us I actually think that it would likely be the case that we would come back in a year or so with some proposals perhaps along the lines of what we originally proposed here so I think that's certainly something we can do for you I'm not looking for any I don't think you were alluded to coming back with crimes type thing but I'm more interested in as technology changes what's next being able to stay in and that type of thing yeah and I certainly think we could work together to get something to the legislature in December PG or something like that yeah I'm just thinking I'd be comfortable not putting reporting language but I could I'm happy to make a commitment here to do that and I'll work with ICAC to make sure that happens and I can assure you we'll do it without having it in legislation we can go for it and also taking into account the fact that your detective mentioned something about the work with those smaller companies even if it wasn't within our direct jurisdiction as this committee as members of the legislature being that you have direct access to the 11 of us if you needed a member to put forth a bill to help work on the commercial side of it versus the judicial side I would imagine that any number of us would be happy to sponsor short form bills to move that process along I appreciate that because this is too important a situation to not have that available to you so I don't think I'm speaking out of turn for my fellow committee members but no way so thanks so to keep this simple you didn't consider putting the gloomy language in here you didn't have to consider it yeah it just felt like let's keep it straightforward and get at the root of the problem that we're going to address here and this is going to happen Michelle do you mind just walking oh sure I know it's easier to go to the prior draft and I don't know what works for a committee member yeah I mean it's true all those penalties are out so I guess oh sorry just to have on the record it might be easiest I'm looking at draft 1.2 which is also posted the first draft you reviewed I think it'll be easiest just to go through that and say to the committee what's out because there haven't been changes other than eliminations 1.2 or 2.1 2.1 so I didn't mean to confuse things I was just going to go through the prior draft the first draft you saw and say what's no longer in it's going to make sure people understand what's been what was introduced what's been eliminated because I'm going to hear from here from Marshall who my recollection was most aboriginal draft I'm going to hear from him on this draft so so the first change that is no longer in the current draft is under subsection 2825 the penalties section 2825 the penalties section there was an addition that we spoke about last time which would have been essentially a new crime for child erotica is the term that we were using although that term wasn't in the first draft and this was the language that would have made it a violation to have a visual portrayal of a child who is new to partially clothe and then there were several conditions that needed to be met before that would become a criminal possession that is no longer in the provision that raised the sort of baseline charge for this went from two years to three years and it's again we've eliminated all penalty changes it's just back to two years as it's been for many years the next change was still under the penalty the next change that's been eliminated is still under the penalty section and this was the change that would have addressed the luring statute where if somebody had actually traveled to meet a child physically traveled through space to meet a child that would have raised the penalty to ten years from five years for that action and that's no longer in this version and the other change that's been eliminated was actually the definition of possession under 2827 and this is the same change that I just spoke about where the visual portrayal crime has been removed everything else is the same so everything that you just talked about that was removed what did that come from? that came from our folks thinking about ideal changes but understanding this is a committee bill and it needed to be streamlined and we wanted to keep things tight we sort of removed some of the stuff that we thought may be more of a challenge to discuss quickly and just really focused on the most concerning pieces okay alright nothing else from me thank you thank you excuse me Marshall Paul from the Office of the Defender General and I just want to say that we are with the new changes to the bill we no longer have any opposition in the original we were opposed to we highlighted a few sections that we believed were unconstitutional and probably could have rendered the entire statute unenforceable but with the new changes those problems are eliminated so we do not see any constitutional problems with the bill as it's currently drafted that's all so we jumped up now to 2.1 right? that's what he's talking about? yes thank you that's Marshall I've never testified just say it that's all that's true let's see if I can beat Marshall's time here are you serious? shy for the record Sarah Robinson from Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence as you've heard obviously documenting sexual abuse with the child beyond the trauma that causes for the child itself the possibility for those images to live on for years and really haunt children and families is a very significant concern and something that ought to be taken very seriously we support the bill we believe the statute should be informed by the wisdom of the investigators and of Goslin highlighted technology changes quickly and so we think these changes make good sense you're not going to get away that easy so where would the network fit into all this I mean as far as is it through counseling for kids or whatever a few places one is you know we do different work than Prevent Child Abuse Vermont but all of our programs are in schools talking about healthy relationships and healthy sexuality and that includes what appropriate boundaries look like for children and we work with other partners across the state on child sexual abuse prevention work but the other thing is that there are in addition to serving direct victims of domestic and sexual violence our programs get frequently get calls from people who are parents of child victims our family members of child victims and our programs will provide support to those folks as well. So would you do Matt was talking about the education that they do as far as teaching a computer etiquette or whatever as far as teaching kids what's appropriate do you do that also probably less around the technology side of things and more around what just healthy relationships and boundaries look like for children and youth I just have to say my own child who's a second grader came home the other day talking about learning about leaving trails online and at age seven and I was so glad to hear that and I think that that really speaks to the way that our state is looking comprehensively at these issues I don't want to sound like a mold or anything but what do you mean leaving trails on that the way that it was described to me was that there's just very early tech education happening in elementary schools around what appropriate relationships and boundaries look like in using computers as students are learning to use computers and technology that that's part of the education very early how to use computers thank you very much I was wondering if you I want to say your name correctly Domenica Padula I don't think you got a spot but you haven't been with us before and everyone just say a few words about because you're new to the mission so it would be great to do you want me to I realize I'm putting you on the spot but it's nice to see you and happy to hear thank you having me here I appreciate it this topic is of course very important to the division very important to me too my experience I was a prosecutor in New York for 14 years and specialized in child sexual assault and these kinds of cases so it is really wonderful to come to the Attorney General's office and see how wonderful the commitment is to tackling this and working with Matt it is a tiny unit and it does amazing things and it relies a lot on community partners which in my short time here in Vermont there is a very amazing community based response to a lot of issues and I think this is one of the places where it really highlights highlights that and hearing from all of you in this as well pretty great were you a state or federal prosecutor state the reason I asked if you're federal I was going to ask what are the feds doing well the feds we work closely with federal partners they have a lot on their plate as well so what we do is in working closely when we do our investigations we look and see is this something that our resources can handle or is this something that our federal partners can do a better job with a lot of computer crimes take place outside of the US and there's a lot of that happening so when we figure out where this is coming from sometimes it's part of a bigger network that the feds may be working on other agencies are dealing with so there are certain criteria changes what the feds might be interested in so sometimes it just makes sense to hand those cases off and be a supportive player instead of a principal thank you thank you