 Welcome. Welcome to Brain Club. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I'm the executive director here at all brains belong and we're really glad that you're joined us today. Let me share screen and get us oriented. So today we'll be talking about authentic systems change and some ways of thinking about that. Of course is our educational space providing education to the broader adb community about neurodiversity and related topics of inclusion for purposes of contributing to systems change by shifting social norms developing shared language. With the idea that you come here and take what you learn and experience into the rest of your lives. This is a space where we're hoping that you come to feel safe. Collectively learn on learn promote new ways of thinking and being in the world. And as I said go out into the world and spread it. This is not for medical or mental health advice it's not a support group, ABB has programs that do those things but this one is not one of them. This is an education program. It's not it's it's not not a place to discuss yourself individual situations. All forms of participation are okay here. You can have your video on or off and even if it's on we don't expect anything of you we certainly do not need you to sit still or look at the camera or any other neuro normative construct. Feel free to walk or move or fidget or stem or eat or whatever else needs doing. And in addition to communicating in whatever way is most comfortable for you. You can will have plenty of time for conversation at today's brain club after our pre recorded video with our guest presenter. But after that you'll be welcome to unmute and use mouth words type in the chat. And also observation is a completely valid for participation there will never be demand or pressure to interact in any direct way. We also have private messaging set up if you want to ask a question that way or make a comment that way. And then in addition to offering all aspects of identity. We just ask that, you know, sometimes when topics come up that maybe, you know, especially things that have been distressing to you we just ask that you discuss the impact of your experiences not specific events. And we work together to balance individual versus collective group needs. And I, speaking of needs was captioning is enabled you just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. But depending on your version of zoom you might find you might see the live transcript closed captioning icon but if not look for the more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles. You can also do the same and choose hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. And that's my visual support actually open up the chat. Here we go so now I'll see if anybody's using it. The reason I started chuckling to myself is because I realized that I skipped a slide, we worked very hard to make this particular slide and I only used it once and then subsequently lost it for like three ring clubs after that. And that relates to the chat, which is the chat is such an example of navigating conflicting access needs for some brains the chat is a really important accommodation. It's a way of getting your thoughts out in real time not having to wait to insert yourself in the conversation. It's a way of not having to use working memory to like, rehearse your idea and hold on to it for five minutes. It's gone and they can't process and pay attention. It's a way of communicating without mouth words which is something that many brains really struggle, trouble to do. And so at the same exact time, there are many brains that the chat is really overstimulating and exhausting and distracting and all of it. And so both of those things are true. And we try to have the main idea be on the screen. The chat tends to run in parallel. So if you want to just ignore it, go for it. If you want to engage with it. Go for that. That's how we, how we balance conflicted access needs of the chat. Okay, here we go. So we are continuing our March theme systems change from the ground up the idea of, you know, coming together, envisioning the world we wish to see and just doing it and not really needing to have a whole lot of drama or over a And so what and shared these slides with you last week to but just the idea that we know that the status quo doesn't work. The status quo is failing. Neurodivergent people are from are likely to struggle to access all kinds of broken systems, and those broken systems. They're not they're not only broken I don't work they also don't talk to each other, which is one of the major contributions to poor health, because all of these other things are part of health. I wanted to wanted to share again, we're very proud to release our first ever impact report of this this grand experiment the last two years of what what what would it look like to create a different kind of healthcare that integrates medical care into social care, bringing people together, connecting with the community, supporting employment, helping people develop a deep understanding of their access needs that you know this could be healthcare. So we're very, very, very pleased to share this with you. And what what what happens here often I know some of you have been have been here for two years some folks are new it's your first time ever. So welcome anyway, what we have here is a village, a village of learning and healing together. And I'm very pleased to share an interview that I did with Dr Winnie Lube, who is the academic core coordinator for function coordinator for UVM Center on disability and community inclusion, and a member of our board of directors. That's almost from the very beginning. And what you'll hear Dr Lube talking about is what systems change means to her, and how some of the nuances sometimes that happen when you try to co create an experience with community members. David, take it away. And I think this I think this video will run about maybe I think it's about 15 minutes, and then we'll have plenty of time for discussion. So, so the idea of, you know, systems change and we've like talked, you know, you know, I've talked about system change before and like how that's like an important part of what we want all brain belong to be doing like can you, can you say like what what what system change like that, you know, means to you or could could mean to you. Yeah, well I think as we were talking about ideas and energy and drive comes from the people up, rather than, you know, this top down where it's being dictated to you what you should be doing or not doing or how you should be doing it. And the co creation piece I think is, is part of that. You know, like, if I think about, I always think about like see public services like, like food stamps or section eight or social security or those kind of things like those systems would work so much better if they actually paid attention to how people are using it, and you know, the barriers that they're facing with it right if they were actually acting on the things that aren't working. It would be so much easier. I could not agree more. And like it's actually not that hard to ask people, you know, even like in which, and, but I think it's a lens, it's a lens of, you know, I really, I want to know, I want real time feedback on what I'm doing so that I can make little changes in adjustments. I wonder if in like a big system, you just realize that you couldn't even make changes so why bother asking feedback I don't I don't know what do you think about that. Well, I think about the importance of having folks with lived experience in those positions that can make change at that level, because of, you know, otherwise you're kind of talking to the wall like you have a few people who kind of get it near and I don't know what to expect, but if you have people in positions of power who can actually lead the way and model, but this is a different way to do it. I think that's the way to have the change really so like having your working with people about employment. I think that's a really powerful model for sure because then those people can model for other people right that they can see that like I had a, I got asked to speak at a class few months ago, and I was very open about my own like neurological challenges and my family and but I also talked about how I felt like I was in a very privileged place to be able to have a job that really valued all of those parts of me. Right. And I had feedback from the students that I want it is possible to like actually be myself someplace and be and be valued and have work and take care of myself. Like I don't have to bend myself into these knots that aren't realistic or I don't have to feel bad that I can't make my brain do something different. And so I think that's where those changes happen, right, like those, those small moments where you can actually, you know, you never know how you're changing somebody's life just by talking about something, you know, right, because I think that it's some, at least for me, sometimes I don't really, I don't have language to understand my experience until I've heard someone else name it I'm like, Oh, I would never have come up with those words but that is the exact thing that goes on in my head. Wow. Whether I whether I hear it or read it or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why it's just so I think it's important that even though everybody can't be happy with everything. I think it's still important to have the platform and in opening there. Yeah, I'm able to to please everybody. Right. Right, because if you're pleasing everyone, the only way to really do that is if you are, if you're serving a group of people who has homogenous goals and, you know, there might be some some reason for that if that's true. You know, they didn't have a homogenous goal like, you know, a shared goal like a shared vision like, you know, I believe that I want to come to a, you know, a space where I can be much yourself like we can agree on that goal. But, but, you know, it's more big picture as opposed to I want this program to look like this. Yeah. Well, I think I think it's great that you're still open to hearing all of that, even if some of those things people want aren't practical or they're hard to deal with or whatever I think that you're providing the platform is the important part. Right. We are so proud of the model of co creating programs with the people we're serving, and we're so like, we're just so into that, you know, it's really important to us right, and then there's this line there's this balance between like, you know, some centralization and some structure and some, you know, balancing the organization's needs with the needs of the people and it's the conflicting access needs. I'm remembering when my younger daughter started preschool. And she just been diagnosed with autism she's only for her language is coming have lots of angry outbursts right and so on the one hand we want her to be able to express herself and tell us what's going on the other she had to learn how to operate in this system where it wasn't okay to do that. And it's still tricky right she's 18 now and it's still tricky is like it's okay to be yourself. And in this situation you have to put a little on it, you know, um, yeah, that's hard with people you don't know. I mean, I have always like and maybe this is just my PDA but I'm like, I've always just found most systems unsafe, like they just like you just like just even as a little kid being like, this makes no sense. This is arbitrary. This is not, you know, this is not open to feedback, you know, I remember even being like a middle school or being like, you know, what, why don't you ask the students, you know, anyway, um, it just always felt like not that systems are like, really, maybe I could say this, most systems are really designed to perpetuate systems. They're not really like, you know, so it just it. It has always felt intuitive to me that starting over and starting something new that wasn't part of a system would be more effective at least faster, a lot, at least faster to get some sort of impact to happen. And maybe it's maybe it's just my brain that I delayed gratification is really hard for me. I want that thing now. I want it right now, not because I'm going to get distracted, but because like I just it's just, it's otherwise just too hard. But, but I, and I think all brains belong. It's all these, all these little, all these little things that would be really difficult to do in, let's say a traditional medical system. But I think that having the opportunity to share what we're doing has been really cool, because some of it actually is reproducible in traditional systems, but at least to get into the weeds of like, well, this is what our menu looks like. Like this is what universal design for medical care looks like. And, and you know, this is, this is, this is actually doable. You can just really. Anyway, but because I think like you're saying the student who for the first time hears that like, it's a thing that you can be a professional with a job and like not be contorting yourself in 50,000 ways. I think professionals also need to hear that you don't have to be tortured by the system you work in. Yeah, I think so I think it's a very powerful kind of social justice is the right word but I think the more people can be themselves in those situations the more effective they're going to be. The more authentic it feels to interact with them when they're being their whole cells and they're not holding back some things they said I don't think you know these other folks will want to hear it but they can actually speak their minds a little like. Yeah, like I really, I really think I think the more this is kind of like easy and hippie dippy but I feel like if everybody felt empowered to be their true self. You're not hurting anybody, you're just being yourself, right, and you pick the kind of job you want. Yeah, the kind of family that you want the friendships that you want. Everybody be right. It weren't like, kind of feeling pressure to clamp down some pieces of ourselves right. And think about how much like cognitive effort is required to like clamp down and suppress like all that. Well it's you know it's funny you say that I don't. Maybe you know the story I don't know if you know the story. The story of how kid connections got founded you know that story. So, oh my gosh it's the best okay so a then eight year old on the junior advisory board. We were like in a backyard. And I said, you know, we're really thinking about how do we have kids feel like they belong to me thoughts about. And this, this will love he says, you let us do what we love. What do you, what do you mean, well if I'm doing what I love and that kids do what they love like we're going to feel like we belong. So that's that was kid connections like that I mean that is system change from the ground up this is like a Swila love with a Swila idea that changes the world you know we've got 140 Swila loves who now have friends like. And you know, did, did school solve that problem. No. Right so so it's a it's someone's just doesn't have to be so complicated. I agree. I agree. Definitely. That's a great story I'm glad you told me that. Also, why I think in my head, part of why I'm really enjoying being a part of all this, this journey is because the, the kernel of what you're doing feels so common sense. It's just so easy. And is, if you're able to pass on the word as much as possible, you know, I can picture like, you know, 10 years from now, but at least four or five other practices like yours would be amazing, right. All over the, you know, all over the country or wherever like I think that would be really, really great. Yeah, and then for people to even know that it exists, like, oh, I can, I can actually seek out practices like that I don't have to stay with this thing that I don't feel good about. Yeah. Thank you for saying that right because I think like so many people they have, they've never like even in the healthcare space, they've never had a healthcare experience that feels safe and comfortable they've never had a job where they could show up as their true self they never had that so they don't know that that's possible so you see it. Hopefully you see it because you're experiencing it but even if you don't. You know, yeah, I hope I hope that that does, you know, does help adapt people's expectations of what they should be expecting and demanding from the, their environments. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, but they should demand and expect right like it's reasonable to expect that you're going to feel safe when you go to the doctor or any of those things. Yeah. Yeah, I would say like as a patient. Like, I mean, maybe about a year ago, I went in, I went in to get dental care. And there was like so much COVID going on, like, like so many people in COVID in our practice, and I went in and like nobody was wearing masks. And it felt really unsafe. And then it's an open air thing. I'll edit all this out but but I'm you know it's open air thing and the person in the stall next to me coughed. And I flipped out and I walked out and I, I, it was very difficult for me to get mouth words out but I was, I was always able to say is like, it's not safe here and I walked out. I would never have been able to do that without my experience of transformation through the ABV village because I am surrounded by people who think about safety and think about, like, ooh, I have an internal body signal that sends me like sends me a clue that like something in my environment is not a fit for my access needs like I didn't have that lens before this. Wow, that's a really good, yeah, that's a really good example. That's good. Yeah, I didn't feel like I could talk about myself in any kind of deep way until I got involved with ABV. Really. I mean, it just like it spoke to me immediately as something that like, you know what, Winnie, you're going to be 50 something. At some point you're going to need to be authentic with people. Why not start right now? That part of your journey, that's amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it's so interesting because it's it is like this grand social experiment of like, hey, I'm going to show up and try to be authentic. You want to do it with me? I don't really know what that looks like. I've never really had it before, but you know, let's do it. And I think there's so many people who are hungry for such a thing. Yeah, I think so too. And when I'm with, you know, in environments where I know people are, you know, they're plenty nice, but I know they're not giving us the whole story, right? They're just kind of giving up a mask of who they are. And now I sit in those meetings and I'm like, ah, too bad. Yeah, it's too bad. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I before you used to be like, oh, I wish I could hold it in that good, you know. Yes, like that's not even the goal, because now my expectation is authenticity. Yeah, awesome. Oh, thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to say before I shut off the recording? No, just thank you for inviting me and I really appreciate being a part of all this. I really, really do. I think it's a feel good interview to have. Yes, I love one movie also being Laura's comment in the chat. So, you know, I think for me, the part of that interview where we talked about hit connections, that was like, that was my favorite part of that interview because it was like, you ask the people who are directly closest to the problem. So if you're going to try to think about something for a kid, yeah, ask a kid, right? So, so why doesn't that happen everywhere? Yeah, like it's not hard and it's not expensive, you know, it's, it's like we talk about at all brands belong, like you ask what people like and you do it, and you ask what stresses them out and you don't do it. And yet that that is kind of wild, right? That that's like revolutionary. That's like a that's like a really big unique thing. And yet it is. I wonder and I wonder what others would say about this, but I think that when you grow up being told that there's one right way to do the thing. And your, your experience is not centered even in your own life. Like, doesn't that, doesn't that, you know, contribute to being in a world where, you know, we don't think to necessarily ask other people about the experiences that are closest to them. So yeah, it's radical. Michelle. I'm starting to type, but I'm like, this is too long. I think there was an article in the globe this week, or maybe it was flip board, but I really liked this article. It was about a teacher who was doing a lesson, but she didn't really tell her kids it was a lesson. And this was, I think, like third graders or something. And they had a fish tank in the classroom and she took a fish out and she put it on the floor. And it started to gasp for air as you would imagine. And then she told everyone they were not allowed to move or else they would get detention or something. And then she left. And everybody was appalled because the fish was dying and they were going to get in trouble. Finally, one little girl couldn't stand it anymore. And she went and got the fish and dumped it back in the tank. And eventually the teacher came back in the kid did not get in trouble. And the point to this was sometimes you have to violate the norms and do what's right. And that was the whole point of the story. And I think what I was thinking is when you were saying we're taught to do nothing. It's hard to violate the norm. It's hard to go against the teacher saying you're going to get in trouble if you save that fish. And it's just so hard to overcome authority and norms that we sit there and we do what we know is not necessarily right. And it's like it's like the Stanford prison experiment. You know, there's all kinds of things that get normal. Right. Yeah, so I actually so Liz's interpretation of that. From the chat. My safety is wrapped up in the teacher's approval. Right. So my safety is wrapped up in in in everyone's approval. My safety is wrapped up in my, you know, my caregivers approval my safety is wrapped up in my partner's approval of the bullies at school of the self selected cool kids of like. There's so much of that and I think earlier someone was I don't know what somebody in the chat was just talking about people pleasing. I mean it's all of it. Right. And anyway, that story stayed with me. Yeah, it's really something. Did you turn your video on because you wanted to share. Okay, nice to see you. My family was in a spot where my family wasn't eating around me. So I turned on the video. Amazing lovely to see you. So, so I'm curious, you know, whether you are new to our radical social experiment of showing up authentically or or have been been with been part of this for a while. Does having the experience of showing up authentically anywhere. Does that change what your experience is when you're somewhere else. Do you notice anything different me. Authentic feels better. Paul says when I think about giving my preferences for interaction in any situation. It's not a usual situation. Not sure if I know my preferences because I'm not used to being asked. Yes. Look, hang on one second Laura and then summer. Feaster famine participation. I was just going to say I feel like things bother me more. Like I feel like I'm more readily able to identify things that aren't right. Like Tracy put in the chat how to be fish sabers and still feel safe enough. I think I feel more safe in places that make me feel braver. And I think I'm more annoyed at injustices that I can more readily recognize than I could before being part of this village and practicing this authentic showing up thing. And I think it's it's the whole business of you you you shift your norm for what you demand and expect. Summer. Meet myself. So, I have to agree with what everybody has been talking about as far as you know it's just the, the amazing feeling of being authentic but then you have to kind of be a little. I mean I try to kind of look at all of my situations and then I sort of choose what I'm going to share if I'm going to be myself or maybe I'm going to hold back a little bit. But the way that I grew up you know I was told that you know I was a child I was supposed to be present but be quiet you know my input didn't matter and even when I got into school and teachers. I would find people not listening to me, you know, maybe they're laughing at me or they're bullying me because they didn't like what I was saying because it was different. So then I had taught myself to you know just keep everything inside so with the whole people pleasing, you know I really got sick of doing that because I think some situations are worse than others because you're not being authentic. I own a business and so I tell people some really unhappy information sometimes about where they work or they live about their, their structures. And if I tried to sugarcoat that it wouldn't help anybody, and I'm in an industry where I've seen that happen a lot and in the last three months, you know I've really done my best to be authentic even just being personal with my clients and telling them things and it's made it so that they connect to me they trust me and they appreciate me being authentic, and nobody's bullied me or laugh at me and it's a really different type of atmosphere than when I was a child. And a lot of it has to do with the terminology. You know you have been able to teach me terms that, for whatever reason, the outside world understands better than me trying to express or explain my feelings which leads people down a different trail. So I think that has a lot to do with it just the way that you have taught everything and Brain Club in your group sessions it's really helped to make it so that I can explain it to others and then they're spreading the word as well. So I think authenticity it's really important but there are times that you might want to just hold it back for yourself, maybe not for other people. Just to save yourself any kind of burnout or something, but it's very liberating and I thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing all that. And you're absolutely right. And, you know, it's Sarah what did we talk about the other day? What did we say about the difference between masking and like being strategic? It was like, yeah, some what's the difference between unmasking and being strategic, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think it actually came out of last week's Brain Club, because I was observing that I didn't like watching myself in the video because I did not feel authentic. I did not feel, and I could see it, I could see the like the strategy of it all. And it was exhausting to do and it was exhausting to watch. I read Sarah's comment from the chat. So I'm talking about showing up and being authentic. Sarah says I so long for this world at the same time I suspect that evolutionary biology gives us a realistic appraisal of how revolutionary that actually is. I think of how bodies are designed, how the most vulnerable and arguably the most essential parts of us are hidden most deeply within protected by mass and armor, then you get an idea of how dangerous nature thinks it is to be open and authentic. Absolutely, that's why it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. It's not safe out there. Depending on all kinds of aspects of identity, all the characteristics that, you know, all the different ways that humans are othered, right, so there are many people who it is not safe to shop authentically. Mel, I think that points to like what what we're like what a bb does and what you've what you've done with a bb and I want to hear a bb saying all the time about the importance of queuing safety. If I have any power in the world or if I have any power and privilege relative to other people in my world. I'm going to be viewed as a threat or potential threat, unless I like bend over backwards to actually to safety and actually like let other people know that like vulnerability is wanted and welcome here. And even then people are going to like have to have go through their process to learn whether or not that's trustworthy and whether or not that's just a line I'm feeding them, or whether or whether that's a whether it's a whether it's real. But it, but it, but at a bare minimum. Like, it's like the transformation I think is going to come from when I use that power and privilege to start queuing safety, and to start and actively to try to make it safe for everybody to be safe for others with less power to be who they are. Absolutely and like power. Power so tricky right because there's going to be environments where in order to access, like so that the aspects of a person that maybe associated with more privilege in order to access power associated with that privilege sometimes you. You have to be less authentic in order to access that power. And even if the goal is to have power on behalf of others. It gets, it gets circular, because a world where not everyone can show up as their true selves. Not everyone can access the resources that they need and not like all of it it's it's we, we all suffer. And in the short time I've come into brain club I've changed my view of how participants in zoom meeting should behave. I used to think that if participants in any zoom meeting didn't have their video on and they weren't really engaged or were uncollaborative. I now realized how wrong that view is. Yeah, you know, isn't that but isn't that what we were taught like I mean I remember in elementary school being taught like you, you know you, you must. If you're not looking at me you're not paying attention if you're not making eye contact you're not be I mean that's just ableism and it's just embedded everywhere. Sarah says in the chat there's not one bright way to be a person. Yeah, I love when you quote my former five year old at brain club. I didn't even know that that was where that quote, that's where that quote came from so for those who don't know. When my child was five. I was, I told them I was going to go do a training of a bunch of professionals to work with children, and I asked them. I asked them what I should tell the people. And they thought about it. How long there's no right way to be a person. I love that. Oh, we should definitely make some merch. This is incredible. courtesy of your child. But I think that's the whole point right that like we hear things at brain club every week and then they become part of our inner monologue, you know, and then we take that with us when we're doing other. That's the goal is to sort of take that inner monologue with us when we're doing other things that are more neuro normative. And have that in the back of our head. Absolutely and particularly you know how like you know the medical model would be like, well you know that those of us who tend toward delayed echolalia like that's what our brains do we take the thing and we play it again and it it derives more meaning each time. But I do think that, you know, whether it is that you acquire a different like just like a summer was saying just different words to name what you've always known but now you either can say it in a way that clicks for someone else or just maybe even you have a different way of understanding it like I'm one of one of one of our staff, one of the phrases that echo in my head. They said, you acquire language to wrap your brain around your experience. Whoa, yeah, that's what happens at brain club. Yes. So the idea of being that, you know, when you're around people navigating similar stuff. And, and, and one maybe we thought we were the only people who experienced that stuff. And so we're not alone. We're not broken. Maybe, maybe sometimes when something happens, like even like, like at the beginning of brain club where I was like I can't even find the record button my brain is just not connecting the things. I am actually aware that how I spent my day today was connected to how my brain is feeling right now that is new information. That's, you know, you're so the idea that yeah when when you spend your day in an environment that doesn't work for you, it's going to take a toll on you. And so depending on how much privilege how much autonomy you have over how you spend your day or how much awareness you have about your access needs and, and, and, you know, how much support you have in adapting your environments and routines like that's going to impact how you feel. I think people don't talk about that how would you know we grew up talking about this we didn't know about this. Laura. Um, can I ask Michelle I put a question in the chat earlier. Can I read it and ask you to respond to it because I yes please I'm sorry for missing it. No, it was way earlier. Michelle said a question for later, how do you deal with organizations who think they're doing the right thing but they are constantly being unconsciously ableist. So, and this is just me I can only speak for myself like, I don't have. Maybe such as don't have spoons for it but like, you can't tell people they're doing it wrong. They flip their lives. It's not effective. So, it's the oblique angle. It's the oblique angle of like, what can I say what can I share that's connected with this person or this organization's values. And, you know, I think sometimes the great irony of this is that people like people read a lot of people not all people but a lot of people really do want all people to feel like they belong and to be able to get their needs met like a lot of you want that they just don't realize that the thing that they're perpetuating is preventing that. So, again, I mean that's true that I believe what I just said. The other thing I might say is that right, Sarah would Sarah said I didn't even look at the chat, and then I'm trying to find words and I look at the chat and what you said is what I wanted to say. Right, it's I opt out of this. This is not safe. It's like I'm leaving the dentist. But again, depending on how much privilege and autonomy like what can you do. What can you opt out of and what can't you opt out of. And you know if you need a job you're going to like, you know, pay your rent. Feature family, and you're in this place and you don't have bandwidth to like make an exit plan and you don't get to opt out at least not now. Well what if you come up with a plan. To make a plan though you need a little bit of access to your cortex or support support in helping you think through your exit strategy. And I think probably like through brain club and doing this, there might be a way to start that to help people figure some of that out because the only thing that I'm thinking as of is if you don't tell them. They're not going to do anything and then it almost enables them to continue. You know these employers or whomever to do this to other people and for me like, I'm just a different person but I prefer to tell people because even if I have to leave a job right and a friendship or some kind of relationship. If I planted a seed where they could go back even if it's years in the future, and my voice echoes in their head, and they're like, oh, that's what they meant. I just feel like people need to be told, even though it's scary, but a change won't happen. If we don't tell them we sugarcoat it, even if they're going to get mad and we can't deal with it. Maybe we can figure out a plan to collaborate with others. I don't know what that means, but I think everyone should be told, doesn't matter what position of power you're in, that it's not okay to do certain things. And then if you have a group of people to rally and do whatever, you never know what could happen. But again, I don't know where that starts. For me, my moral thing is I like to tell people, I guess I shouldn't say I like, I want people to know that there's another way to do things and I don't want to enable them to continue doing it a way that I don't like. Or that's not helpful universally. Right. And in connecting this with Michelle's comment in the chat, like planting a seed, because again, it may not be safe to give direct feedback, depending on the power and balance. Laura. Like, Mel, I've watched you in organizations where this is happening and I think you have this really excellent way of recognizing the strategy of the organization and trying to almost tie to their mission a way that they might more effectively carry out their strategy. So saying like, it seems like what you really want people know is this and a way that your message might be better heard is if you go at it from this angle. And it almost doesn't like, it's it almost seems like it avoids the call out and it gives them a new direction and helps them in a way that feels strategic towards their aims that you've helped them identify the oblique angle. Thank you for naming that, but it requires so much access to my cortex to do that, and I don't do it well all the time and when I do it it takes everything out of me and I can't do anything else that day. And sometimes it's worth it and most of the time it's not. So it's and that is also a matter of like triaging where you spend your, your emotional and cognitive resources. Is this an area that's like is this is this situation even within my scope of influence and if it's not. I didn't plan to seed but like, I also can just shut my video off and just like sit here, because this is a waste of time, because you don't get it. Sarah. Did other people have their hands up. I just, um, I didn't notice any because I was probably not paying attention. Okay. Um, I mean, just, I think what what Laura said about what you do. I mean, it's actually really extraordinary and really, really important. One of the things that that one of the ways that I at least make sense of like because I get into those situations that like, like, or like are just described in the chat. And I get really confused and and I think I'm starting to make sense of those situations, I think that there are values hierarchies. And so what I think a lot of organizations really want is to be thought of as good people. And so they're more than happy, they're more than happy to be jump on the, the we're not able to, you know, we're inclusive bandwagon. But they're using an inclusion, they're using the idea of being inclusive. The most important thing to them is not inclusion. The most important thing in their values hierarchy is to be thought of as good people. And so it's and so it's not and so, and which exactly points out why you can't do a direct attack you have to do a bleak an oblique attack, because if I, if I do a direct attack I'm saying to them, you're not a good person. You have to do the like you have to you have to zero in on the thing that makes them a good person is they have this lovely, you know, they have this lovely mission statement that makes them a good person, and then show them how their mission statement can be even more effective and that more, even more people will like them. And I mean it's just. So anyway, but for anyways, but it helps me to get through the long short of it is it helps me to sort of look at when I'm feeling confused it's like Oh there's probably this values hierarchy going on, where the thing that people are saying is the big value that I think they really value isn't really what they might value it but it's probably 10 on the list not, and they say they value me and they say I'm at the top of their list but no, you know, I'm at least number four. That is so well said. Yes. It makes me think that I don't know if anybody has attended every every year in April so in this year it's April 16 the third annual presentation of the shifting the autism narrative the impact of stigma on health presentation. It's like a slide that I get to see I get the same talk every year. And, and there's a slide that talks about like the brain science of social justice, in terms of like, expecting discomfort, because when because I mean this this talk is like the, it's, it's the only time that because I think it often draws like a health it draws our people and it draws, you know, a health care audience I think. And so it's the, it's the least oblique I ever am all year about like the, the, like how the health care system is ruining autistic people's lives. And that's what the talks about anyway but there's a slide that's like you're going to feel uncomfortable. Yeah, you were going to have involuntary limbic responses to what you're about to hear. And so let's plan some, let's plan some regulation strategies ahead of time with the idea of, you know, what Sarah you said when you tell the people they're doing it wrong. And it is often, you know, involuntarily experienced as an assault on identity. But I do think, you know, I think what we've seen here is that sorry, somebody's like using the vacuum. It's nowhere near me but it's like as though it's the loudest thing in the universe sure now. Anyway, I know that there are probably people who get that deeply. So, so anyway, but oh thank you for registering for the talk Laura that's great. So someone said somebody shared in the chat that I remember what I was going to say. Oh, just just just just the idea that I don't remember I lost it that was so 30 seconds ago I think Sarah were you saying I can get it back. Yeah, I was just talking about the values hierarchies and that and that people really want to be seen as good people so if you if and when you give them feedback that they're not being if their primary value is to be seen as good people and you you say well you're not doing it right then they take it as you're not a good person and anyway, that's does that help. Yes, it does because I think like I and this is where I think that there are a lot of people who it's not performative. They actually really want people to have good lives I think they really genuinely do. It's just that when you are in mesh in a neuro normative culture. You take these things for granted, without recognizing like you know neuro normativity white supremacy capitalism like all these systems like you know you just you. If you grew up drinking the Kool-Aid you think you think that's what it is. You don't even realize that it actually is counter to your values to your values. Because it's just that's what we do. Same way that we expect you know hey put your shoes on child you know put them on independently independently like it's just paid for granted. And so that's where you know the the oblique angle you know I think I think I think it a bb you'll often hear like that that's where did you know like a good did you know question. You know because it in the did you know is always like this thing that I know you didn't know. It's a thing you've never thought about. It's not the opposite of what you think you know. And that's what oblique angle is it's just like this is the thing that literally you've never thought about before that is not directly counter to the thing that's wrong in the chat. Steve says one can be blissfully unaware of the water we all swim in. Someone always peas in the pool and doesn't say anything. Great analogy. Laura says I think all the time about how painful assumptions simply are because I have usually have no idea of made them until I find out that they're wrong. Me too. I think we all we all do that. Anyway. Um, thank you. Thank you for being part of this conversation. And we're going to apply this, we're going to apply like this is this is kind of building. Next week we're going to apply system change from the ground up to work. So last month we talked about redefining our relationship to work. Next week's community panel is about grassroots efforts to really shift shift economic systems for people to get needs met. And it's a it's it's they were prerecorded interviews so I've already. I actually made the inner usually I do things very last minute I actually did this like well in advance and it's it's so powerful and some of the panels are going to be there live to join conversation afterwards. I think it's going to be great. So I look forward to seeing you then have a good week everybody.