 Hi everyone, I'm Eric Edmund and today for DMTV, we will be exploring one of the many campaigns that our movement is involved in. It's called Stop Trade with Illegal Settlements. For the past 50 years or so, Israel has systemically occupied and colonized Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem with something like 700,000 settlers currently living there. Just last month, in fact, the government of Israel has approved plans to build a further 4000 illegal settlements in the West Bank alone. Now, in the face of this seemingly unstoppable Israeli policy, the international community has repeatedly condemned the illegal settlements, but with little real effect on the ground in Palestine. In fact, Amnesty International joined other actors including DM25 in calling the Israeli state an apartheid state. So there is a shift in the rhetoric around the world, but little real effect in practice for the lives of Palestinians. On the other hand, the European Union does in theory oppose annexation of occupied land and the building of illegal settlements and considers that an obstacle to international peace and stability. As well, it should because indeed illegal settlements are according to international law a war crime. However, in practice, the EU does allow trade with illegal settlements, making the importing of goods and the exporting of goods to illegal settlements and services legal. Now, what this means is that essentially the annexation of land becomes economically profitable for aggressors and thus contributes to the expansion of illegal settlements, not just in occupied Palestine, but in many similar cases around the world, which brings us to the campaign that DM25 has joined together with dozens of other organizations from Europe and across the world. Stop trade with illegal settlements is a campaign that calls for an EU law created by the European Commission that will force the European Union to put its money where its mouth is by making trade with illegal settlements illegal. This law would apply to occupied territories, of course, in occupied Palestine and the illegal Israeli settlements there, but indeed across the world and it would send a powerful signal across the whole planet that the European Union stands by its principles in practice, only in rhetoric and will make the annexation of lands by oppressors and aggressors economically less profitable. So, with us today to discuss this and this particular topic, we have firstly, Senator Francis Black from Ireland. She's a musician, a qualified addiction counselor and politician. She was the first independently elected woman to the Irish Senate, where she sits since 2016. And she's also the founder of Rise Foundation, an organization that sets up support for families who have loved ones struggling with alcohol, drug and gambling addiction. Hi Francis, welcome to the show. We can hear me. Sorry, I was just on mute there. Lovely to see you, Eric. How are you? Lovely to have you with us. And secondly, we have Omar Shakir. He is the Israel and Palestine director for Human Rights Watch. He has a long record of championing human rights across the world having worked on topics ranging from U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and the killing of prosecutors in Egypt to legal representation for Pakistan. And of course, human rights violations in West Bank and Gaza. Omar holds ABA international relations and a JD from Stanford University as well as an MA in Arab studies from Georgetown University. Hi Omar, welcome to the MTV. Thank you for having me. Great to you, Senator Black. No, it's honestly a pleasure to have you both with us. And let's get straight to it. So, also with you Francis, if that's all right. One of the reasons why you're here and we're going to have this conversation is because back in 2018, you tabled a private members bill from your position as Irish Senator, which sought to essentially prohibit the import and sales of goods and natural resources from illegal settlements in occupied territories. And this resulted in, among other things, also the summoning of the Irish Ambassador to Israel by Netanyahu, if I remember reading correctly. Why don't you tell us a bit more about this particular bill, how was received and what happened to it since then? Yeah, sure. Well, the occupied territories bill was introduced, as you said, to the Senate in early 2018. And I was one of the sponsors, obviously, along with my colleagues in the civil engagement group. I had four of us at the time, there was five. And we're all independent. And I suppose this bill was a result of a collaboration between my office, where I had Conor O'Neill working with me at the time, and Sadaka, which is the Ireland-Palestine alliance. And Jerry Liston was working with them at the time. And the bill, really, I suppose, was inspired by our strategic thinking about Western inaction on Israel's decades, long impunity in the face of international law. So like it continuously violates international law in so many ways, including its de facto annexation of the occupied Palestinian territories. It's a transfer of civilian population into occupied territories and countless other offences. So over half, as you well know, over half of all UN resolutions, condemning violations of international law by a member state concerned in Israel, and yet in practical terms, they suffered no consequences. So Ireland has been one of the most vocal, Western critics of Israeli human rights abuses. And the Irish people in particular are passionately supportive of Palestinian liberation because of our own history, I suppose, of anti-colonial resistance. But unfortunately, a success of Irish governments have failed to take concrete action. So our strategy was to disrupt the cycle of condemnation and inaction by presenting a proposal containing the minimum possible demand, which was barling goods originating in the settlements that are universally recognized as illegal. And it thought this could force the Irish government and perhaps other governments to turn their words into action, their words of condemnation into action. So this bill, it's not full BDS, which if it had been full BDS, it would have got voted down immediately. So like we believed that by making such a modest demand, the pressure on the government would be increased because they couldn't really articulate a plausible reason to say no. So just to give you, I suppose, a quick outline of what happened. The bill quickly passed all stages of the shannot. In the final stage of this process, I have to tell you, I was joined by two Palestinian farmers, Fayez and Runa al-Tanib, who traveled to Ireland to speak about the impact of Israeli colonization on their lives and to support the bill. I have to say their presence in the shannot chamber was so powerful and it was a powerful reminder of what we're fighting for. And then the bill was then introduced into the Dahl, which by Nile Collins of Fina Fall. So this is pre-election, pre-last election. And at that time Fina Fall were in opposition. It passed its first vote in the Dahl by a wide margin, supported by all political parties except for Fina Gale and some of the independent TDs who are supporting its minority government. And it also passed an important vote in the Foreign Affairs Committee before stalling in committee stage. So the bill passed seven out of ten stages required in the parliament before legislation is sent to the president to sign into law. It could be implemented rapidly if the political will was there, but unfortunately all progress was halted because of the current government. And obviously there was an election. And we do know that the law is in limbo. Well, it's back on the order paper. It's back on the order paper. It's still there. It's not gone. So I just need to say that, and I think that's very important. So there was an election called, unfortunately, it didn't make the last three stages. So unfortunately, but it is back on the order paper. And like we do know that the Occupy Territories Bill played a role in the negotiations for the formation of the government. Early drafts of the program for government included a bill with the question mark next to it. Ultimately, again, as I say, Fina Gay were adamantly opposed to its inclusion and Fina fall in the Green Party support, which supported the bill previously gave into them. So we're still fighting for this bill, but ultimately it will almost certainly require a change of government to progress. Do you have any indication from the parties most likely to make government in Ireland? Well, according to the poll, it's looking like Sinn Fein are doing extremely well in the polls at the moment they're leading. So if I would imagine if Sinn Fein get elected, I think the bill will pass straight away. Thanks for that. We'll come back to this topic. But first, let's go to Omar. Now, Omar, like Francis basically said, it often feels like Israel is essentially unstoppable. No amount of international condemnation seems to really stall their expansion into the Occupy Territories. And in general, the brutal treatment of Palestinians. If I remember correctly, you were even expelled in 2018 from Israel because of your work and your political background. So with this in mind, what parts do we really have available similar to what Francis has described in what she did in Ireland in order to put real pressure on Israel, not simply in order to virtue signal, but really to effect change for what is happening in Israel and the Occupy Territories? I think banning the trade of selling the goods globally would have an incredible, you know, impact in terms of starting to move the ledger towards the start of human rights based measures in a situation of this gravity warrants. And let's be crystal clear, there is consensus across international lawyers that the transfer of one's civilian population to territory required by war that's verbatim on a fourth Geneva convention, you know, is a war crime. It's defined as such under the Rome Statute International Criminal Court. So when you're doing trade with settlements in Occupy Territory, you're helping to sustain these violations of international humanitarian law. Moreover, you're helping to sustain human rights abuse because settlements by their very nature rob indigenous communities of their land of their resources of their livelihoods. They're invariably universally linked to displacement and discrimination. So I think it's critically important globally that there is a ban on trade inner with settlements. And I think what we're seeing happening in Ukraine is we're seeing some countries defending this principle in terms of what it means to be under occupation what the human rights abuses, you know, are there and I think we need to sort of take the playbook from what we need and actually apply it much more global. Right. I mean, if you've seen the way the world is reacted, whether it is about accountability, the resources, the international criminal court has put in there. I mean, if you land in Europe, I was just in London, you know, last week you land in there and you see signs if you have evidence of crimes against humanity and war crimes report them to the police. The initiatives that have taken place to end complicity with Russia's aggression in Ukraine. If you look at the steps taken, you know, around similar initiatives you'll see quite a bit of momentum for those principles to be valid in Ukraine. They need to be valid everywhere where the similar principles are invoked. I think the European Citizens Initiative is exactly the sort of measure that brings to bear this type of human rights based toolkit. Palestine is a natural place where I would apply as you noted human rights watch and there's one of many organizations there's a consensus now in the global human rights movement that Israeli authorities are committing crime against humanity. There's the UN Special Rapporteur who endorsed this finding. It's gone beyond even civil society groups to the former UN Secretary General, foreign ministers of France and Luxembourg, nearly 400 European parliamentarians. And so there is quite a bit of consensus around that. And when you have a situation of that gravity, there needs to be efforts to end. Let's be in them. But this bill is not this initiative is not just unique. And by the way, there's hundreds, you know, several hundred million dollars of trade, you know, that go between, you know, go between, you know, Israel and Europe and some much of that according to data. It comes from settlements, a good percentage of that. But more than there, you can look at Western Sahara, you can look at even, you know, Iraq after the coalition invasion, oil exploitation. There are a number of other scenarios in which a similar legal framework could advance human rights protection. The last thing I'll just say is of course when we talk about Israel Palestine, I do think there's a there's a value in calling things by their need, recognizing reality for what it is. And apartheid is the reality for millions of Palestinians and calling it as such, I think is critical to getting to the point where we're taking human rights based measures such as targeted sanctions on those Israeli officials implicated criminal prosecutions and investigations and prosecutions, as well as evaluating all forms of bilateral engagement with Israel to ensure non complicity in these crimes. Thanks Omar. This is true in something that we've also identified with our own work. For example, we were very active in opposing the deal with Turkey for refugees between European states and the US and Turkey. And it's really, really saddening to put it mildly to see the difference in approach to refugees between the way Ukrainians have been accepted with open arms as well they should be fleeing war, and the way essentially every other people on earth are left to drown in the Mediterranean, based on fortress Europe and the sort of approach that Europe has taken to refugees. So there is this kind of semi duplicitous semi hypocritical approach that the European Union has taken and, as you say it's very important to, to take the positive example and use that as the foundation for how we should be treating this sort of thing, universally, as a block. Now, on this, actually, I'll leave this topic for later because I want to come back to you on this I'll go back to Francis. What do you describe with the law that you promoted and the work that you've done of course as an Irish senator is all Irish centric, and that is understandable that is indeed your work Irish decision making but, of course, to put pressure on a state such as Israel with the kind of powerful support that the state of Israel has requires more than bilateral relations is not just up to Ireland essentially to to fight this fight. And maybe Omar you can come back to this with maybe examples from other countries who have done similar moves to try and pressure Israel other positive examples that you might have from other countries. But Francis what I want to get to is, in terms of what you're doing with this bill that you promoted, what role does the global the European the international dimension take and how essentially does an Irish senator think act locally but think globally. Well, I suppose, and Ireland is a is a very small island on the far Western edge. And one can often feel insignificant when confronting the immense scale and bureaucratic complexity of European and international institutions, particularly when you're just, you know, an independent senator, and you don't have that big full party behind you. But for me, it's absolutely vital to not feel discouraged. And I suppose I take my inspiration from, you know, well, first of all, the international movement against apartheid say in South Africa is obviously a touchstone for solidarity for Palestinian solidarity activism. And that movement, which saw small local campaigns boycotting South African goods and grow grow into a massive social movement that got huge companies and state concerns to die best from apartheid and convinced a broad range of states to apply economic sanctions that precipitated the collapse of the apartheid regime. So in Ireland, it was the actions of a few shop workers led by an amazing inspiring woman called Mary Manning, who went on strike for for several years, refusing to handle South African produce. And that's all the Irish state ban imports of South African food products in 1986. And that was one of the most radical steps taken by a Western country at that point and proved to be extremely influential. So, like, I mean, ideas can spread far and wide. And in a negative sense, we've seen how the pro-Israel lobby has been successful in spreading repressive legislation limiting Palestinians, Palestine, the solidarity activism across the US and in certain parts of Europe. And I hope that the movement for justice in Palestine can counteract that by sharing strategies and legislative frameworks. I'm very heartened by the international interest in my bill. And I've spoken about it at the UN and lawmakers in Belgium and Chile are currently working on legislation inspired by it. I hope that it can provide a framework for activists hoping to make their government's commit to taking concrete action against the settlements. Like, I mean, in recent decades, Ireland has sub-fuelled much of its foreign policy initiative to the EU. And it has muted its criticism of human rights abuses across the world as it seeks to align itself with Western diplomatic and military priorities. And I hope that Ireland can reverse this trend and regain its voice and its sense of independence. As a tribute for nations and people resisting, you know, repression, colonialism and violence around the world. And I think the occupied territories will be a useful tool in achieving this same. I look forward to the day when we see it enacted and the Irish state begins to live up to its promise. As do I and I'm sure all of us involved in this campaign and not only. However, and this maybe is also a question for Omar, I know how much of your work revolves around European legislation, because one of the tools used for the campaign of stop trade with illegal settlements is an ECI. And for our viewers, that is a European Citizens Initiative, essentially a tool of the European Union, essentially of the European Commission to allow European citizens to collect signatures around a particular topic that they wish to see enacted into law. So drafted by the European Commission and then presented to the European Parliament. Now, this is something of, for some of us at least, considered a bit of a democratic pariah because although it exists and it is on the surface, a democratic tool that allows its direct influence over decision making. It has been quite inefficient and unsuccessful in creating any kind of change all ECIs that have been pursued by European citizens have for one reason or another essentially failed. So it'd be interesting to hear from both of you if you consider ECIs really a powerful tool for creating this kind of change or whether it is only a sort of an additional tool as part of a broader campaign. And also bringing you back Omar to this question of whether there are any other interesting initiatives on the same topic, are the pieces of the puzzle such as the one that Francis is offering from Ireland. Yeah, so let me start by saying I'm not an expert on European policymaking, but I am an expert on international law and what it requires Iran is repulsed. The European Commission should be regulating this on their own. I mean, Europe has European Union EU member states have a clear position on the illegality of settlements. They have a clear position on abuses that stem from settlements, but frankly they have failed to put their money where their mouth is. It's shameful that, you know, according to Recessima, $300 million of trade between settlements and Israel proper. And I think this is easy to regulate. That's what, you know, I think the EU was created precisely to do the kind of work of regulating, you know, goods that are the product of violations of international law and human rights should not be traded on the European market. That's just a very bedrock principle. Since the EU and the European Commission aren't doing this, then I support all initiatives that allow citizens to take their fate in their own hand and to try and sort of force the hand. I like this ECI is trying to do it was ultimately they're acting, given the failure of the European Commission that by the way, even if they get a million signatures and human rights watchers proudly one of the nearly 100 plus organizations that have endorsed the ECI even if it gets a million signatures. All they're compelling the Commission to do is to take this question up. It doesn't necessarily dictate, you know, an outcome but in terms of what else is happening out there, I think, you know, Senator Black mentioned Belgium, not only a bill like this at Belgium has also passed a clear government policy around differentiation, or in essence distinguishing between goods that come from Israel proper versus those in illegal settlements in the occupied, you know, territory there's a similar initiative that experts think is likely to do. Experts think is likely to pass in Chile. I think those are two really, really good examples. But beyond that, I think you're seeing that there are now some important initiatives in international fora. So the International Criminal Court has a formal investigation into serious crimes committed in Palestine. There have been a number of states that have taken stands in support of the court's independence amid attacks, you know, by numerous led by the US under Trump that they continued that have sought to, you know, block the court from exercising its mandate, which is precisely to have a forum to hold perpetrators of serious crimes to account where there is no other domestic remedy for these crimes. There's also a commission of inquiry that the United Nations established last year to look into not only the events of last year but also the root causes of the recurring conflict that commission has just released its first report that will be debated at the UN Human Rights Council. There will be further reports. It has a standing mandate to look at uses on both sides of the green line. We saw so much of the world after the killing of Shireen Ablaqla offer independent investigations and accountability and even highlighting the larger context. And we have now a UN mechanism. It was a shame that European states that were on the Human Rights Council either abstained or voted against the creation of that commission. It's critical that they support its work. European states have supported such initiatives every other time they've come up to the Human Rights Council unanimously voted in favor of them. So why is there a double standard on Israel-Palestine? And the last thing I'll say is in terms of apartheid, we now have a situation where the entire African group led by South Africa and Namibia, Ivory Coast, African Union heads of state, all of whom have now used apartheid in terms of their classification of the reality on the ground. The organization of Islamic conference has done the same as has the Arab group. There's some overlap between those bodies, obviously, but we're talking between them of maybe close to 100 states. So I think we have states that are now willing to make this classification. Most of those states obviously aren't selling arms to Israel. They're not complicit in other abuses linked to the apartheid reality. But I think other states need to take the cue, you know, and they need the first step, Eric, to solving a problem is to diagnose it correctly. The wrong diagnosis leads to the wrong conclusion. So we need European states to recognize the reality for what it is. Again, we have some models with statements by former European leaders, by parliamentarians, and even now, the foreign ministers of Luxembourg and France have acknowledged public statements or referenced apartheid. We need that to happen. And then we need the steps to be taken that are commiserate with a crime of that gravity. Remember, crimes against humanity are crimes against me. They're crimes against you. They're crimes against all of us. Thanks, Omar. Absolutely. I mean, you really beat me to one of my follow up questions, which was essentially in general this track record of the European Union when it comes to human rights, especially in Israel. Across the board, really, because it is one of these medals of honor that the EU wears on his chest when it goes to the negotiating table anywhere that it is one of his core principles and the rest of it. But then, of course, when it comes to practice all these big interests that essentially many of the governments and indeed as a block the European Union serve, complicate matters and makes the reality quite different to the rhetoric, as we see in the of Israel, but not only. Francis, would you like to also come in with any comment on this? Yeah, I'm not I'm not an expert either by any means on on anything. To be honest with you. But yeah, I mean, I suppose it is concerning. There's no doubt about it. And that we don't see, you know, I suppose proper and you know, what Omar said earlier about what's going on, what's happening with Ukraine and the fact that, you know, there's obviously, you know, banning goods from Russia and the hypocrisy really for me can be so destroying, I suppose. But in saying all of that, and we must. And I think this is for me when the first time that I sat in on a meeting and I met with, you know, some Palestinian people. They came to Lester House. And I heard the story and they were going through and I just felt the hopelessness just I almost was overpowering until one woman said we must never ever ever give up hope. We must keep going. And I really believe that would be for me the most important message out of today. You know, it's the people can make change. And I think it's so important that people feel empowered to take action for justice in Palestine. And I think, you know, the best antidote to that feeling of despair that we all feel from time to time is activity. And I would ask the people who are watching this today to, you know, please come on board with us get involved being involved in activist work with like minded people for good cause can be totally transformative. You know, and, you know, I would say to people to maybe seek out their local Palestine, you know, solidarity, solidarity activist groups where they live, you know, because they really are doing vital work and can always do with getting more support. And I also think again, and I'm only talking here from my own experience of when we were, you know, trying to get support from from the government back in 2018 from the from the opposition parties not from the government from the opposition parties. And, you know, we had we had public meetings all around Ireland, and we were amazed at the amount of interest and passion that Irish people had for the situation in Palestine. And what we did was we got people to lobby their their elected representative on this issue. And it really worked. It really, really paid off. I mean, too often, you know, politicians and political parties believe that voters are not motivated by issues of foreign policy. And this means they can take disruptive or or negligent positions and believe they won't experience a political cost. But persistent activism and lobbying on the issue of Palestine makes it harder for politicians to ignore, which is crucial. I can't tell you how how important that is. You know, and it's the voice of the people that they listen to. And that's why we must never ever ever give up. You know, and I also think, can I just say as well, another great way of taking action is is by Simon did the European Citizens Initiative to ban trade with illegal settlements. You know, this initiative is a process that compels the European Commission to consider, you know, initial initiating legislation if it supported the set the signatures of one million EU citizens of the course of a year. Could you imagine the power of that? I mean, it's it's just phenomenal. And you know that like this campaign demands that the EU adopts a ban on the importance of goods produced in the EU, you know, are in the illegal settlements, sorry, in occupied territory. So it's like it's it's really, really powerful. I mean, you know, it's vitally important because the EU recognizes the inequality of these settlements. And yet, again, here I am saying it again, it's taken no action to limit trade with them. It's it's it's shocking really. And it's not only negligent, it's essentially, it actually essentially rewards Israel for its crimes by buying goods produced on stolen land. The EU is Israel's biggest trade partner, which of that trade is agricultural products produced in the in the occupied West Bank. So, look, if the if the EU respects the principle of international law and the rights of Palestine, it will act. If the EU sees trades with settlements, it would undermine their economic viability and put massive financial and diplomatic pressures on Israel to comply with international law. This represents one of the most viable ways of halting the expansion of settlements across the West Bank. And I and I really would urge anybody who is watching this today to, you know, to get involved, sign up for the European Citizens Initiative. Please share with your family, friends, other like minded people. We really need to get this over the line to force the European Commission to confront the glaring inconsistencies between EU policies and condemn settlements in occupied territory while continuing to trade with them. So, I mean, I would just say, we must never give up. And, you know, certainly here in Ireland, we're embarking on, you know, start not just like what happened back in the 80s to start up the campaign on apartheid. And, you know, I have no doubt we're going to be meeting with a lot of the unions next week and with a lot of the NGOs and the people of Ireland are just waiting. They're waiting to see what can we do. And so we would hope that that would kind of spread throughout other countries. So I hope that answers your question. Oh, absolutely. And then some it is, it's true that essentially pessimism and hopelessness are the biggest enemies of change. And often they are barriers that we put in front of our own minds. They might not even reflect reality, but they reflect the kind of constructed reality created by the people who oppose that change. And as you've said, once we can overcome the kind of mental block, a lot of things that seemed impossible are always on very possible indeed. So completely agree with that. And even if the CIA does not lead and it's indeed sad, the day is sad when an ECI is needed to persuade the European Commission to do its job. But here we are. But even if it doesn't lead to the European Commission doing its job, it can still lead to the elevation of this particular topic in the minds and in the minds of Europeans in the common discourse of Europe in general, which is a victory in and of itself, because that is the foundation on which governments are elected members of parliament are elected and change can happen. So still very important. Omar, we spoke about the ECI. We spoke about decision making. Do you have any final parting words, anything else that people who might be watching us could do in order to stand in solidarity with people in Palestine, people suffering from illegal settlements and occupation around the world? Well, listening to your exchange reminds me that in a quote of Nelson Mandela, I believe from his book, it always seems impossible until it's done. And actually, I know many of us followed with horror the killing of the journalist Shireen Abouakla several weeks ago and actually, you know, rightfully the international media focused on the brutal way in which Israeli authorities beat the those that went to a funeral procession. But actually for many Palestinians, it was one of those moments of triumph because despite the brutality, despite Israel's sweeping movement restrictions were like two million Palestinians and Gaza that are basically caged in an open air prison, 40 by 11 kilometers. You have the West Bank Palestinians that can enter occupied East Jerusalem that are hard to get permit. You have the millions of refugees that can return to their homes. You still have this massive demonstration in the heart of Jerusalem where people raised Palestinian flags and felt that they have this moment of triumph and that it was Shireen even in her death that, you know, brought together Palestinian. So it was one of those moments that showed the fragility of Israel's repression and showed that sometimes, you know, you keep pushing, you keep pushing and sometimes these things shift. So I think when it comes to European citizen signing the ECI is it's not even about solidarity policies, it's the lowest common It's about your own complicity. It's about the fact that you could be unwillingly, you know, you know, going to your grocery store and, you know, purchasing goods that are coming from land, you know, that were grown on land stolen from Palestinians, you know, delivered by roads, some of which might be Israeli only roads that Palestinians can't use, you know, that are being provided to Israelis while Palestinians are denied infrastructure and basic resources. You're talking about that providing money that goes to businesses that further entrench, you know, settlements that go to a two tiered labor system. You're talking about businesses and settlements. You have Israelis, even when they're Palestinian workers who work there in large part because, you know, occupation has eliminated so much of the viable economic opportunities. There's subjects different bodies of loss right Israelis governed under Israeli civil law and Palestinians that are governed under harsh military draconian military rules. So, you know, that's what we're talking about here so I don't even see signing the ECI as a terribly, you know, brave stand it's just it's about actually being not linked to one perspective or the other. Now for those that want to do more than the sort of baseline I think there are a number of things you can do. You know, I think pushing your own look the reality is there are many people in the European Parliament, there are many people in domestic in parliaments, like Senator black that wants to take action on Palestine but you are afraid of the domestic political repercussions it's important they hear from their constituents that these issues matter to them. It's important they hear your voices and also when it comes to select the apartheid discussion, we're at the stage right now where we're, you know, it is increasingly a matter of consensus among the human rights movement and beyond but we need other voices we want, you know, everyday people to use the term to push their churches their labor unions their professors their representatives to use the term because when you use the term, invariably, it leads to greater recognition and it goes to the heart of the problem. In Europe, people still think of Israel Palestine as, you know, to warring, you know, states and that there's a peace process and only they could sit around the table. This could be resolved. But you know, a 55 year occupation is not temporary. Right. You know, ruling over millions of people denied their basic rights is not democracy. So depriving millions of people their basic rights because of who they are isn't just a matter of an abusive conflict, a state that's engaging in daily structural violence and refreshing against millions of Palestinians is not a conflict between two equal sides. So we need to understand the reality for what it is. It's a situation of grave human rights abuse, and we need the right set of tools to deal with that. And I think everyday citizens, you might not be able to change government policy you may not be able to change stop and Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home or an Israeli soldier who blocks a Palestinian child from getting to their school but you can, you know, play a role in, you know, normalizing the accurate description of this situation and then in pushing your representatives to take the sorts of measures that international law sets out for a situation. You know, it's absolutely true and at the end of the day one of the quotes that we use a lot in the end comes from your neighbouring Britain actually Francis from an MP Tony Ben, who said that there's no final victory and there's no final defeat. And that is the kind of concept that really should be underlying this entire human experience so you can never stop. You can't allow yourself to stop. And at the very least, to be on the right side of history, not to be complicit with crimes, let alone empowering them or, you know, enabling them is incredibly important. And that can start with signing an ECI and you can end with your presence in the street with reaching out to your representative with taking the kind of measures and steps in your own life to ensure that you have a life that doesn't have a negative impact on these people who suffer and being aware that is really the first step and then the rest follows from that. Any final remarks from you, Francis, before I wrap up? Yeah, I mean, I just really want to kind of, I suppose, reiterate what Omar said there. I mean, we had Michael Link over who was the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in Palestine. He was over here but in Ireland about five or six weeks ago. And he'd been meeting with different groups in the Eroctus, you know, in our parliament, urging them to take action on a national and international level to deal with Israel's breaches of international law. And, you know, as Omar said, and I just want to highlight, I want to really finish on this. The key feature of the Special Rapporteur's final report is that it affirms the recent findings from Amnesty International Human Rights Watch that Israel is practicing the crime of apartheid. Like in international law, apartheid is defined as a systematic racial oppression and discrimination, including inhuman acts such as torture, a population transfer that facilitates one group's dominance over another. So the wrong consensus is that Israel is inflicting apartheid on the Palestinians. And it has the potential, I believe, to shift the global discourse on Israel Palestine from the dead consensus of the two state solution, and the peace process to to a real interrogation of the two state solution and the peace process. It's our job, I believe, as people in solidarity with Palestine to hold the government to account to make sure that their speeches about peace and human rights are backed up by tangible actions to tackle Israel's human rights abuses. And to that end, I suppose I will say that I think the Occupied Territories Bill is a useful tool in that struggle, is a very useful tool in that struggle. And I do look forward to the day when we see it enacted and that the Irish state begins to live up to its promise to stand up for justice, self-determination and the rights of small nations. But I suppose that's our, that's, I think, going forward. It's, it's apartheid. What's happening now is it's an apartheid situation. And enough is enough. And we must never, ever, ever give up. I would hate to water that down with anything I could say. I would never say it as well. So, all I'm going to say at this stage is Senator Francis Black, Omar Shakir, Human Rights Watch Director for Israel and Palestine. Thank you so much both for being here with us and discussing this important topic. We are very much looking forward to the work we'll be doing together on this and hopefully much else besides. To all of those who, to all those of you who watched us, please visit stopsettlements.org, sign the ECI if you're a European Union citizen, and take the other steps on the website to see how you can be involved, visit the M25, visit Human Rights Watch, follow the work of Francis and others, and see how we can all be part of this solution and stand in solidarity with Palestinians and people of occupied lands everywhere in the world. Thank you very much for watching and see you next time. Thank you.