 We've already seen the individuals of all Chinese. Today we can come at it from the perspective of the internal reconstruction of middle Chinese. And you know if middle Chinese comes from all Chinese then we would expect the internal reconstruction of middle Chinese to be somehow compatible with the proposals that we had come up with for other reasons. So here we go. So how do we get our individual both Chinese as well through the internal reconstruction through the creation of evidence which you've already seen. So let's look first and foremost at the internal reconstruction. In the slides are also the Chinese stuff which when I get to it all there's a list through right because you all know it already but it will help you see let's say how far we can get that's how the presentation is organized. How far can we get with the internal reconstruction and then what further distinctions does the do the decision series give us. So we will remove the the real attribute and the palette of applicants and the records of stocks. We draw you know things work we're you know we just added the palette of applicants yesterday. But you're like why should I remove them but well now we're running backwards in time right. So basically through internal reconstruction you can remove these things. That's me. I will. It's sort of important what we're holding. Yeah we haven't done this yet because we because we basically I haven't been asking so from the beginning I had been asking you to just sort of take middle Chinese as given right. But then I wouldn't want to do internal reconstruction of middle Chinese until you would actually have a good look at middle Chinese instead of how we actually make middle Chinese. Yeah so I kind of done this right at the beginning and just said like well take middle Chinese as given as some sort of language attested in Roman script right and we could be kind of reconstructed. But I somehow feels more ethical to say you know now following on yesterday you know what's going on with Chinese. So now you can use middle Chinese more comprehensively with greater confidence to reconstruct all Chinese. And then what I'm going to add we're going to add legal dealers which are the main thing that we haven't discussed yet because you can't really get them. I don't think just based on Chinese series. So first of all the origin of the oh and I messed this all up. This I have. This should have the circle here. This is this is yeah. You know this is the problem. I had only power points impacts certain back foot thank you and I'm trying to switch it into line but not perfectly. So yeah so we're in with actually the voice delivery which makes better sense. So you see this component distribution between type A and type A syllables and I did follow this yesterday right. So we have the voice delivery only type A syllables and G only type B syllables. I'm leaving aside the discussion of this initial line which we talked about yesterday. So forget about him. We're only talking about these ones which the line fables all dealers. So anyhow. So Crawford suggested that G change to the in type A syllables. Of course you can call it type A syllables. I feel like actually Crawford in my district does come up very often. So I think this is a lot that's happened since he was working in the 20s and 30s but here's one. So that's that. We've gotten rid of voice illiterative by expanding the distribution of G. All right. And any more you know while advocates we've actually been through this one before from the perspective of children's theory but now you know it's the same thing but from the perspective of internal readings from him. So dentals, kind of Crawford dentals only occur in type A syllables and the end of the year. And then the palatal advocates only occur in type B syllables. So why don't we just say that the palatal advocates come from dentals. So you saw this one. We did this before based on the fact that Shashen series makes them. But you can just do it in the combination of distribution inside new changes without looking at changes. And then looking at louds and retrospect responses. So these two vowels which we can call A and E which only occur in division two which you can understand it as meaning branch two. Only occur with dental initials. So we have maybe I'll write this down. We have things like this little chain and we have things like this. And then I'll just say if we want to imagine this is like this one. That's actually how the Baxter writes in the 1992 book. It is 1992. So Baxter wanted the Middle 20s to be told as typeable. Which would say only use Ascii characters with don't die crits. But his culture who talked to Reuter said no this is learning western spoken. Please use these. So in the 90s you'll see these but later he writes. So and then only very rarely can love occur with these. Which is to say like something like this. It doesn't really occur. It occurs very very rarely. And actually maybe the most common word is the Lu in An Lushan. You know like the An Lushan rebellion. Come on. Someone you know say oh yeah An Lushan rebellion. Yeah okay. Well now we feel like I didn't tell you about the An Lushan rebellion. There was a guy An Lushan who was sick of living under the yoke of the emperor in the sort of well in the middle of the Tom. And so he led a rebellion and it was quite successful. Really shook the Tom really like the Tom receded out of Central Asia. They stopped being a kind of international player basically for a while. And then An Lushan. This is his name right. So An we now know means like in Parthenon right. I think that's what we said. Anyhow it's some kind of Central Asian. And then argued by Beckwith although I think it's why they read. This is like carbonate with Robson. He was probably a sodomite in any case. But anyhow the Lu either is basically the only division to Lailu in Asia. Probably not a coincidence that it's writing something foreign and violated. So these vowels are this is using back to the system. So I read the Schwab side of it. I didn't realize you know I look at it this morning actually it's like oh yeah it was good. But hang on. Oh and eh so that's division one slash four. Don't occur with W. W. We don't have things like this. So these are just you know these are facts about the the foreign tactics in the training. So Yath and Paul proposed that the dental and record books initials have the same origin. And basically what you can say is that well that these vowels come from some kind of R coloring. He's doing it. So what we propose then is that in general the vowels let's think of a case where they do occur from the like am and pun. So we say these vowels are our colored versions of maybe these vowels and or who knows right well um but some some vowel and let's just say this one's from R and we'll say this one's from R. So the R in some environments causes the the R coloring the vowel but then in other environments the like goes back to Tehran right. So basically the R either changes the initial into a reference like or it changes the color of the R. Could have done both but I think it's okay. And then we also we take the L back from R and that explains why uh why we don't have things like this because that would have to go back to I don't know what happened which kind of doesn't make any sense. So that explains why we don't include all of these things not attested to R and then this one to be constructed. So that so this R proposal which actually this all of this stuff uh Baxter calls the R hypothesis which is to say R so L comes from R middle Chinese L comes from Mou Cheney Bar and then all Chinese are honest way middle Chinese either changes them or are reflected or it changes the color of the neighboring vowel and there's not a dental around. So that's set. Okay so now the Lagovillas. So middle Chinese syllables with W which are orco we heard about today fall mainly into two categories. So one is check lines that occur only after wheelers or levels. So these rhymes yeah so what am I saying? I'm saying that we have syllables like like co-analympics yeah but we don't have syllables like twin I would say these are these are things we don't have. Other rhymes like win one that's uh go ahead one yeah so we have quit and we also have twin so uh let's just say there are two kinds of rhymes in the way that's right we have the the it's called the velar happy rhymes uh so let's just you know in a totally mechanical way in the first instance uh we construct one as w one so we'll call these this one w one let's call this one w. So w one only protects the letters and vowels uh both any rhyme and w two only in certain rhymes. Now I just think I've made a little bit of a slight of a handout right which is to say like if so so these are the don't care rhymes and these are the velar happy rhymes so another way you can do that is to say w one can occur anywhere and w two can only occur with these rhymes. Does that make sense right which means that if you like quinn as two sources quinn in middle chinese could come from quinn with w one or quinn but quinn can only come from when w one. This is maybe more steps in internal reconstruction than you need because you probably are already from the fact that this section is called old chengen blade of velar you anticipated where the art is going. So otu four is and if you don't usually I don't think you even get the credit for this. Forget who does. I think it's yawing probably again um but hey i'm otu four uh propose that uh this w one uh you know velar plus w one goes back to the lake over so then we get things like this so uh quann comes from quann and quann and then for the moment and this is just for me to point it out this otherwise you might uh we have to also reconstruct monster like this um but uh that's just because we're only taking the perspective at the moment of internal reconstruction right in fact you already know that i'm gonna take you back to you so that in old chinese we all will only reconstruct uh labial uvulars and labial velars which makes good sense and actually I would say in a way that um this is an argument for reconstructing uvulars you know from the perspective of internal reconstruction which is to say although we although i don't think internal reconstruction gives us grounds to uh reconstructing uvulars we allow ourselves to reconstruct uvulars it makes this look much less crazy yeah but hey i just want to say that where we are with internal reconstruction is we have uh we have labial velars and labial gloves okay so now this is our provisional inventory of old chinese niches so uh basically what I did is just take the mill chinese initials and then I got rid of the towels and I added labial velars right uh and then uh you see this nice this nice this is du again which I just put there because I haven't done anything with it that's just one that's one we'll talk about next so uh so we have we uh didn't do it right now yeah this is what we got okay so uh and then this is type type a so which is the thing and that was it basically that was what you know that was the thing that I really wanted to do was the uh internal reconstruction of middle chinese uh but now there were this what they were here let's kind of do what we did in the folder where we add more uh in these tools using the chechon hypothesis okay okay so remember our laterals and then for its resonance for six laterals so here just remind us of basically you know the the name was kind of and then and uh what about the graves that's the very top and then over here uh and then top for this weird uh outcome there okay and then there you go so now we can get back to the fixed problem with the glottals uh and you've seen on the floor so oh oops i want to get back uh yeah so jump right so this is our sort of these are the things we're used to by now i think well i'll stop going back to uvular it goes back to uh before so yeah this is where i really meant that that's a thing on here so um um so yeah the the voiceless feel it goes back to the qh and the voiceless go back to the g uh and then uh in these lateral types uh for high point valves also yeah okay uh now this is the new part does all chinese have a why yeah so we so far we should say yeah we so far have said that uh let's say that guh is one source of why in uh i think we play in traditional and actually i mean yeah all all initial yes the middle chinese are in type these like this kind of my definition so so we so this works for us um but uh some people are not happy to just say okay then whenever you see a young little chinese uh take it back to uh a new healer so these are yeah these are the sources all right yeah i should just wait for this site so these are the sources that we have that's one that i that i'm in here but we also have this and l as sources for young so there's three sources for young so uh so that's something that's enough we can give it all the others uh but actually we could put in a young job don't think so they think we need some kind of primary others and this is their uh evidence for that so i'll just go through that here this is the word for she young right so back into garland take it back to come uh but it has a to that cognate uh young car where car means white yeah so it's a kind of white sheet and this g i mean my this is where like look i depends on what what what you think maybe the g goes back to the uv but no no no people feel like they know what rebix is but so uh the young makes you think nah maybe it goes back to yeah but in any case what whatever you think it's about in this uh which also as a young thing you kind of pre-young and i don't know how to pre-young i just like you don't talk to the formula but you know you don't know if there's a job or something for us signing out to make it a concrete claim both actually chisler and young jock points to the young year and year as evidence that this probably should be a yacht there yeah and take another one uh this itch word uh uh see here we don't get a new year job so we have each in chinese which is young and then we got a gal it is uh finally it's connecting with your regular year so maybe you can just say they're not part of it so we should say reveal the names of the problem but whatever i'm not trying to convince you that this car is a real i'm just trying to communicate to you that the young jock and i hope chisler think they're real uh and um but yeah the first one was some kind of more normal right so i mean you have to be amazing but they're also something after that are you talking about these about this uh problem oh oh oh so this in so this now we're betting here right so this symbol needs to bet on i think was a voice deal of rickett which is also why i use it when to write a voice deal of rickett in chinese uh but it would have it would have the voicing wouldn't have been the meme in this local position so how would how would i do this i would reconstruct it as yeah um but uh yeah so so but but most people think that this is just some kind of orthographic device uh i'm gonna i i want to make the case for them thinking it's some kind of orthographic device but i can't because i don't believe it in some cases i'll give you one uh like this is a verb to exist uh and so if it's good stuff something like that but if you didn't have this here you would read this because the betting doesn't write the initial on you would read it as god so because of cases like this people think it's purely orthographic books but actually here even if you didn't have it there it would be totally clear how to read that so that's one reason i think you know um the way i would put it but i this is you know it's not a the way i would produce probably at some point in some kind of places they use this this final uh and the orthographic device pointing out that the vowel is in awe but they do that because it becomes possible to do that because it's lost it's not something that they kind of came up with as an orthographic proposal that was needed of and cases like they showed me that because here it would be totally on ambiguous either way so anyhow uh all of that's just the same do do are you comfortable with you know like yeah okay oh yours that's what you're saying is lost out here right so maybe yeah yeah i see a kind of mismatch but there's more yeah so so maybe this call stop is somehow caught in with this you know voiceless feel and forget or voice the alternative maybe phonetically uh who knows but these the the outlawed correspondence is between uh sign language or a mess uh although they're not as much of a mess as the initial correspondence and if you want i go through it like it does 19 but i just pretend them all just like per se okay here's you know here's not a correspondent and here's where it's a mess and whatnot so um you know it's i'm in the hopes that you know i mean i'm now i tell this uh story like uh i can remember the guy's name oh laughing more or something but there was someone who assembled all of the exceptions to grim's law and you know it's a sort of public paper that would be very hard to publish now literally i don't have any proposal i don't have any arguments here's just some well-organized data but then bernard picked it up and was like ah i know this yeah um so i'm sort of hoping that you know people will do that with this section of my book they'll just say oh it's clear that he was mesh missed this obvious condition environment but it hasn't happened so far but the point here is just i do think this reflects the state of the art in the sense that i don't think that young god or actually proposing these as cognates is at all a bad idea and we it's it's uh it's kind of we don't have any reason to think they can't be cognates maybe that's the good way to put it i'm not suggesting that there are some if you like using the sort of traditional uh signological terminology there are primary yo's in uh sign language yeah i've already covered oh this is to get delayed yo and good question this is uh reason why i think there was much reason to start you know the goal of the presidential bill and stuff there's no industry value for the taxes if i think that so it's uh the specular reason you know you don't want to know it then here's what i'll say it's like i don't think it's coincidence that actually christler wants her to be both initial w and an initial yeah whereas bach's and cigar want her not to be an initial w or an initial yeah right uh and and both of those are kind of intuitions about elegance right and i think the let's let me sort of say what the intuition about elegance is from back from cigar side which is if they have enough machinery to get them everything they need to get then they shouldn't add any more machinery right uh and actually i would say that generally speaking people criticize them for having too much machinery right so so here's a moment where they're showing restraint we do not allow ourselves an initial yeah so um i think that can only be applauded uh but what baxter sorry what um what schuchler says i mean this is maybe being unfair to him is like ugliness what kind of language has ugliness yeah um and that's a lot of a lot of people have that reaction uh i think because uh you know if you look in southeast asia if you look in among chinese dialects you know there aren't any ugliness yeah so so if you're trained in kind of east asian studies uh and you only speak european languages other than east asian languages you know it will seem typologically aberrant to propose ugliness but of course tichuan is full of ugliness as is central asia right so i don't think that i don't think that kind of uvular phobia is a good reason to to not reconstruct ugliness yeah and then i'll also say that um at least on this score let me put this way uh back from cigar have the right amount of machinery right they they're able to explain all the sheshen series and they don't propose an initial yell which they don't need whereas schuchler proposed the initial yell and he doesn't propose any of the ugliness which means all kinds of sheshen theories don't work for him yeah and then what does he say about that and says look the sheshen series the sheshen hypothesis should be taken with a great assault don't push it you know to the limit every time right uh and i guess even i said that with this knuck example you remember from a long time ago now uh but um which is that you know if we need to add 10 vowels or even hundreds of initial consonants in order to make the sheshen hypothesis work then we probably shouldn't and different people have different intuitions about how far to push the sheshen hypothesis but then you know i've been making the case that in general i think you should push hypotheses until they become certain right um because it's only then that you learn where that kind of you know where where well where where reality is is if you sort of overshoot it in that back track right um but anyhow so that was you know now i've just flagged for you that whether or not there's an initial yell is uh controversial but the main reason that it's proposed uh is or maybe let's say there are two reasons one is to make comparisons look better which is kind of a bad reason yeah uh or uh because people feel like it makes the language look nicer which is also kind of a bad reason although i will say if we if we have only evidence that Simon DeVette hadn't yet you know in the in word for um sheep let's say if we look if we had Burmese and Tibetan and you know Kiranpe and whatnot and then went to uh this in Chinese in order to then become young again well of course that would not be very obvious yeah but i don't think that reconstructing young in probably Simon DeVette and i'll say from this person then all chinese you know i would say if it were the case that this would you know really solid this young in for something other than i would agree with trisler and uh and uh young jock but at the moment i don't think it's you know i think that why don't we just say that the young in young long-ended um and it's a better than it comes from a voice you've learned it's not that's you know not the best of this actually oh come on yeah that's not good i mean you can't do the icing first when you're called only in type b syllables right so yeah okay well then you probably found something out if you don't like it yeah that's i don't know i would go for what i was well i think and we went through this before but i think it would have gone through this stage right yes and and maybe that's as far back as we should push it i was actually thinking to myself because of conversations with you why don't we just reconstruct them as forgiveness yeah but it's because of the blood stop yeah but i would i would then say the aspirated column yeah this is the blood this is the blood and the blood service was the most that's right oh yeah okay maybe and then you just say blood stop and you dealer are close enough in terms of their position of articulation to be allowed inside a changing series uh you know us most realistically they they are often like this maybe the time they have a professor in spots they are very conflicted yeah especially about yeah i i mean i'm dry well i i leave this to the you know the kind of you your you your neurologist yeah um but i think it doesn't look bad you know and well and i would also say let's say from baxter's regards perspective if i propose you know uh if i propose this one and uh and uh and what's it what's the one i just did yeah this one and blood stop then why not make the shations hypothesis you know work by by taking it back to this yeah both of the solutions yeah i don't think i mean i think they would admit that the the uvular hypothesis is a weak point of their reconstruction especially because in their reconstruction then you also have pharyngealized and underutilized uvulus right that's not which is that we need some other source for these things ultimately um but you know well it gets a bit worried that uvulus and regularize uvulus and regularize regularize yeah yeah yeah yeah i agree with that but so i mean and i think i don't know if i don't see class we're just talking to some of you but here's how yours here's what what i think the best case is yeah let's for students okay so uh let's do it backwards in time yeah so so in the middle chinese we have uh now oh except we don't have this this is by a this by b so so we're going to move this one up here yeah and then we have this yeah so that was that was totally sleight of hand uh but but i needed in order to say these things we already called kind of distribution but so now i go back to sort of this let's call late old chinese and then uh in late old chinese i would have a g and g and k and k and a either trick or do oh and then also we have you know you have and so and then i was all at it so uh then in let's say in middle like old chinese yeah we know from loanwords into come on the end the type a uh dealers were new dealers right so actually this was um this right so um i mean i should have actually yeah i'll do it why not okay i'll have to write small we have late late old chinese and remind what i just wrote uh g and then i'll say i'll have the b type b is power yeah uh so g and g k and k uh and then uh and then something like this no that's late old chinese and then middle old chinese we would have and then probably these were dealers right maybe this maybe this this maybe maybe this maybe that this was also dealer and like the who knows it doesn't matter i'll i'll write some lines here so that we know where we're going so at this point what we have are stops and the brick it is in both uh you dealer and dealer right uh but then when we go back to old old chinese means that we uh we would say that they are just again g and g k and k and then now we would add the capital g for this one and then a p oh and then i the whole time i think we're getting them all stopped so we're going to go stop we're going to go stop we're going to go stop and then here i would make them all stop with q right so um at this moment i think it's fine to say that type a was perennialized right in middle old chinese you know but in all the old chinese it has to be something else and that's what i think yeah what you were saying is like is we we don't want you you dealers that can be legalized or pharyngealized yeah uh where we would have sort of we would have you know uh this looks like too much and i agree with that but i would basically say that we shouldn't the principle we can start with we need so if we need something straight we should we can start with but i mean it's becoming gradually more alarming yeah um but but so i'll say like some big event happened uh which uh actually this guy's own islam calls the rig vowship uh which which happened in sort of the the the kind of well maybe you say the early and it really you know in some ways resembles the great sub vowship to english which is why he calls it that yeah uh so in the great vowship the uh the the the vowels moved they moved backwards in type a syllables and forwards in type b syllables so then the like in the 1992 book baxter takes type b all the way back as a medial j so we we kind of this one yeah uh but that's also ugly in some way because you end up with like half the syllables in the language of the middle j in them and then there's no evidence for it from early indian transcriptions it doesn't come up in carbonates so so basically when he abandoned the type b is middle is is is a medial yeah then you turn to type a is a pharyngealized onset right and the person who first proposed this pharyngealization hypothesis was uh norman gerry norman uh and and it's nice right because it explains why the vowels sort of front with pharyngealization and no back with pharyngealization and front without uh which also would explain why you know basically to maintain the contrast that you had these paddles and whatnot and that also would make sense of why the in-lones stuff on yet you end up with um with uh uh velars borrowed as uvulars so i think the pharyngealization hypothesis is nice but the evidence for the pharyngealization hypothesis let's say begins in the hawn which is when you get loans into uh other languages and uh and when you have the very fellowship and ends you know in terms of the ab distinction ultimately coming from the rhyme tables ends in the song right so our kind of the evidence for whatever type ab was goes from sort of 200 to 1200 if you like yeah whereas the evidence for these uvulars comes from the structure of the characters themselves which presumably are much older like uh let's not go 1200 bc but like i don't know 500 bc 800 bc something like that so i think the best way to do this is to just say i don't know what the type a type b syllable were up here it's something that can become pharyngealization is what type a goes and something that does not become pharyngealization is what type b was and the best thing to do is to look at cognates in other languages right so um cigar things that uh that uh you had something like like well i'll just erase all this now yeah okay okay so so the cookie chin languages are languages of the sort of west of barma east of money for you know a little bit in Bangladesh and they have a vowel length distinction and i don't know i don't have any car mates in my head so i'm just gonna make them up yeah um so holy blank suggested that a let me say right that um yeah that type a the old Chinese a corresponds to long vowels in that type b corresponds to short vowels i think i have that right uh and that sorry cigar likes this idea uh and then what he uh proposes is that actually which would make sense that this comes from uh an interocalic consonant right so i'll give an example that uh might work although i'd have to check all the forms uh cigar things that the word for brain in uh i think of scam right so Sino-Tibetan and Austronesian is punuk and then it goes into Austronesian as still punuk thing oops like that uh but then in Sino-Tibetan uh well no i'll say in cookie chin uh it would i mean i don't think this form exists but it would become you know yeah uh and then in all Chinese it would become uh it would become no type a yeah so that's i think is his theory and he wrote a little article not that long though like maybe three four years ago uh where he compares uh whether or not there are long vowels in cookie chin with uh old Chinese following up on Hollywood yeah but but he comes up with very two cognates and there are cognates in both directions uh so then he does which is which is in style now uh you know ben so far did the other night if he uses Fisher's exact test and me i'm a total you know cretin or troglodyte or something so i say the moment you start doing statistics and historical linguistics my eyes blaze over and i think you know we don't we don't need those fancy tools and uh and if we and if someone is tempted to use them it means their argument isn't very strong yeah um which is to say yeah as a neo-gramarian you know i want everything to work perfectly every single time uh and we're not to that point with this cookie chin about this personally i don't think it's very promising like if i had to use to give the also the system some fresh air or there's something extra on the problem just move the right yeah you like it you're saying in principle yeah i also like it in principle i just don't think it works yeah which typically this is they i don't personally i will see a correspondence between uh long and short vowels in um and in cookie chin and type a type b so well um in uh all chinese i'll just mention another one that people have tried to do which is tibetan loves to paralyze things yeah so um well just take my word for it tibetan loves to battle us things so um we could sort of say all chinese has a b where tibetan has plain and color wise so that's another thing you could you could look at and sort of works is i mean i think it's about as good as the cookie chin where you're like you can maybe find more examples going the one way than going the other way but it's it's really like oh i found 17 examples of the correspondence and 15 counter examples or something like that so i don't i don't find it very promising and i'll just give you a good an example which is that um the old chinese word for fish is not basically i think i'd be so uh and the tibetan word for fish is nya which is paralyzed so you're like oh fantastic it works yeah but um the old chinese word for uh i like me i right i think the it's this long right so it's five over i think it's also type b syllable uh and it in in bed is it's not on the house yeah so i so for me this this kind of is a good example of like well what are you going to do it back no uh whereas if it were if it really were i would want this one to be better although now i actually am worried because when it's uh you know you can always check everything i say you could check right uh okay anyhow uh that sort of uh is made me now set about the origin of type a and b distinction but i think it's on the right track what do i mean who am i even saying it's on the right track but the the the place to look for coordinates of the type a to b distinction in old chinese is cognitive languages that have some you know syllable feature that's in a binary contrast so paloas unpaloas it's been short and long vowels in kuhi chin velarized versus unvelarized uh in gyarongic i think that one's pretty obvious but but work on gyarong or let's say the expansion of work on gyarongic studies is uh recent enough that i don't think comparing you know pharyngealization in old chinese with velarization gyarong has really happened yet uh the gyarong people tell me that doesn't look very promising from their perspective uh but i think that's you know it would be nice to study more systematically these kind of uh i don't even know what to call them binary syllable type phenomena inside of them uh and then one of them is going it's going to be probably with the type a b distinction right just this has to be the case yeah um so anyhow that's uh that's enough about that about type a and type b we even care about problem a syllable structures because we we know that boros that as you know you know they have vowel they they borrow velars and a syllables as the in type a so yeah and we have vowel automations so we are pretty sure that a is the originalization for sub-stage of chinese yeah so rather look how originalized systems arise right yes uh i agree and i'm going to just repeat for the benefit of those people that are online uh the the suggestion is well look we have enough information to know that at some point in the history of chinese the type a syllable were pharyngealized and type b syllables were sort of plain so then the question is we also have reason to think that wasn't the original system because we don't want uh pharyngealized uvillage so then the question becomes not one for comparative linguistics but for typological linguistics where do pharyngealization contrasts come from yeah around the world if we find from the typological literature that there's a particular phenomenon that tends to be what the origin of a pharyngealization from contrast is then yeah we should just reconstruct whatever that is yeah so kind of pharyngealization of vowels that is um also different input as the types of tongue roots um it's a kind of vowel arm system that you see mostly in most asian but also in african in the west african so that might be an area to do for this kind of contrast but do you know of any work on where these things come from how do you get a vowel of an atr harmony contrast in your language yeah that's so the thing with um at least in northeastern asia it's it's mostly an aerial feature so all of this language is half that and you don't really know where it comes from it's just that and sometimes it's sort of spread from the east to the west but in that case it's just like a documentation from the impossible to really figure out where it comes from but it might be a bit more easy in for west africa given that this language is part of what your family is doing so sometimes the type a syllables have been actually i think mark miaki in a nice presentation that given us a long time ago it's now on youtube uh he compared the emphatic consonants in somedic with uh with uh what's going on in chinese and and his comparison specifically about what they do to vowels i think in in the hondiastee and comparing it to maltese yeah but um the problem there is if you ask the you know the somedicists uh these emphatic consonants are also poor alt yeah um although i think i heard someone saying that well i don't i don't i don't i shouldn't talk but i i think yesterday i heard someone saying that uh the current consensus is at the earliest stage they were probably injectives yeah so you know maybe we should reconstruct adjectives yeah so you agree that it's a good mark was on the right track in terms of the type of language uh well i i i guess that electives before the other prompts have ejected yeah that's not yeah it's not yet probably yeah i think that's probably next to see yeah so uh we saw this yeah so here are uvular changes there's simpati uh okay so another question to ask ourselves and this one i'm doing just for the sake of thoroughness there's no controversy even though isn't one about it as far as i know is uh the sources of the velar primitive so we have these sorts of we have the voiceless and the uvular aspirin stop so a bachelor in cigar i think that's enough yeah young that's uh enough so uh so they don't reconstruct uh a and their default like so yeah there's default is the qa if there's some more logical or some uh some special in particular connection to m or not then they really start to as a voiceless and m or not but uh uh they don't do they take back to like here and then here are just some some photos and then the other one that we haven't really talked about is uh so this is just to remind you i still end in some sense internally we're starting to look at these right so first we got to how far we could get with middle chinese without looking at ché ché series then we add a bunch of other stuff using ché ché series and then we see like okay what's left over in middle chinese that we haven't talked about even you know whether or not to get rid of it so we talked about the ya where bachelor in cigar gets rid of it and acts of trust we're in young dark dong then we have the qa which bachelor in cigar get rid of it and i don't think anyone else is really fond of the dong but let's say they also want to get rid of it say they're they're enough for another so similar with z so um yeah so baxter in 1992 just projected it straight back to the beginning uh so he thought old james had a z and then schruxler allows for z but only seems to this is yet written about explicitly that just looking at the examples and instead of logical picture all these things are positive and pre-initial before uh what and remember that in general his was or baxter in cigar was so baxter in cigar would have you know this and then he would have this which seems like a distribution that would be hard to account for uh and then baxter in cigar have all kinds of origins of so that we've seen before uh and they're they're like an s free fixed voices uh before voice stuff but not before they remember that in like like slug becomes and slug and slug and slug becomes but like this guy actually i i think only in some environment i think some environments it becomes go and others think we become uh so and so on a little days ago we should say that baxter in cigar have lots of ways of getting deep so they think that there weren't any beliefs in old chinese so uh now we look at sort of what we have done yeah so the inventory of old chinese uh simplex concepts uh we have added this is making the trinket series we've added the laterals we've added the voices residents we've added the uglars and then we removed uh uh and and possibly also yeah yeah uh and then uh this is what we get uh the four type these are rules this is what we get four time and then i will say uh i think i covered it in another class but uh shouldn't we get rid of the law of soft right because you could just say all the law stuff come and do and it seems like the main reason they don't do that the main reason they keep the law stuff is well too full in there are a few kind of uvular looking series that are short and don't have the usual uvular stuff like like um like uh hub initials in old chinese yeah so if it doesn't have so we only have say uh k and law stop uh then they will say well you know maybe we should just uh oh i don't know k it's not maybe we check that that series because just you know i don't know up and ups and whatnot then they say okay let's take it back to law stop and then we did see that complicated one with the k prefix which is why we have k there right uh the k prefix before law stop that they use to uh propose that you have one simple type like this and one simple type like this we went through that uh a couple days ago as well but um but let's say that's this point which is should we reconstruct separate um law stop and initial in old chinese is something that changed their minds about now yeah and i think that's it's like i told you a period ago got very l happy like in the early 2000 so all the bees were changed to owls yeah uh basically and then um and then you know maybe there was a phase where vaccines are a little uvular happy and they change all of the law stops in uvulars uh but maybe now they've gotten just to the happy balance so um those are the simplex onset uh which we have gotten to by combining internal reconstruction and traditional series basically uh and then throwing out some things where we feel like we have enough ways of getting them that we don't need to cost them as uh as you know still left over from the internal reconstruction in chinese okay so that's uh that's it for this presentation any questions really so bad do you have two homophones in the series no i don't think anyone would die if i i think that's a that's a question of uh aesthetics you know do you do are you bothered by two uh homophonetration series i think i am a little bit yeah i would be but i won't worry about it because it wasn't yeah but we don't we've already decided we don't need it okay but at some point we want that right at some point you know oh you're right yeah yeah yeah we wouldn't we wouldn't need to pass through a phase where we had perigalage bloodstock maybe this is the only thing that i don't know yeah you're right that's a good point now i can't say oh don't worry about it because it wasn't always perigalization but but if the if the type a and the type b bloodstops don't merge then uh we would have needed perigalize and unperigalize bloodstops as in principle contrasted at a certain moment in chinese history so that is a little bit disturbing uh or you know maybe the maybe the ufilers were i don't know i thought the future was really somewhere else in the city oh yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe it was freaky vowels yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so let's say we had let's say we have this you know versus this so so this is this is what they actually reconstruct no well possibly yeah this is what they reconstruct yeah so uh we would then imagine that sort of once upon a time in early old chinese we had this mysterious a and a mysterious b okay and then in let's say middle old chinese it had become this yeah so with the freaky vowel uh i think actually so in chinese so this is a you just like it was dominant but i guess in ipa you're right filled on um and then this yeah i'm not okay right uh and then later you would add like yeah here uh and then here you would have this and this would be like full chinese slash um so i think that's is that okay i guess yeah you guys need an onset no we don't need phonemically we don't need an onset uh but i'm not sure that like there's still the phonetic question right like we we don't need a claudal onset in english but we still have one yeah yeah so we hold it out and now like this goes and we stand in close and echo on six which is fine i guess yeah i mean so just to make that explicit bathrooms, regards, reconstructions are always cv or you know or other stuff but but but there's always at least one c there in their reconstructions so another thing you could say why not is that uh this one had a claudal stop and this one had an actual zero initial in time b why not they're saying this one had an actual zero initial that's you know a big one not a little one it's not a bigger one yeah uh and and then the claudal stop you know came back in later that would also be fine with me right i think some of these questions are never gonna get decided on the dynamite of the thing is foible lists two languages the pharyngealism of the subject oh foible lists two languages but pharyngealism don't stop which one is never decided on the says another term again says another term i mean i i will say sometimes like like um uh someone did once a uh a review of the phonologies of Tibetan dialects and then there were like two to bend dialets that had you know all sorts of everything crazy you could imagine you know and uh and turns out and he said oh that's fine with these two you know and turns out they were describing the same god right so uh i do think that when when you're only dealing with one language that has something two languages that have something then then then the competence of the describer is something that uh okay by a lot by a lot of different people well good yeah then maybe and there's also the um pharyngealized local stuff that is ejected in two languages to even have it and so ejecting so yeah so then so two languages have a pharyngealized non-pharyngealized contrast on well stops and two languages have ejected and non-objective well stops so we're not doing anything too perverse here in in all Chinese yeah um all Chinese right so the middle of those two languages yes there's you know some there's some latin poet somewhere who said you know anything that man is talking about doing evil yet anything that man is capable of i'm capable of but not necessarily like sporting events yeah uh and and and i think maybe you know all chinese feels that way but if you've got it i'll have it yeah