 Hi everyone, my name is Anisha Gupta and I am the current webinar coordinator of AIC emerging conservation professionals network. Today we are so pleased to have four speakers with us, Emily Williams, conservator of archaeological materials at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, Tom Edmondson, paper and photograph conservator in private practice in Kansas City, Missouri, Leanne Gordon, manager of programs and events for the American schools of Oriental Research and Anisha Fuentes, conservation intern in the division for cultural properties at the Department of Culture in Thimphu Bhutan. Biographies for the speakers can be found on the AIC blog. Now I would like to welcome our speakers. Thank you so much for speaking with us today. We also have Eliza Spalding, ECPN chair with us who will be moderating the Q&A portion of the program and Eric Proshow, AIC director of institutional advancement who may chime in at some point throughout the program. Hi Liza and Eric. Hi Anisha. The video you see is being shared through GoToWebinar. Just to quickly review some of the features of the GoToWebinar program. The view window where you see our group video screen now can be resized by clicking and dragging the lower right corner. The control panel is where you as an attendee can take some control on your own screen. You may find that with inactive view the control panel automatically minimizes. If you would like to keep it open for the entire presentation under view there is an auto hide the control panel option that can be turned off by unselecting it. The audio section tells you if you are joined to the audio by phone or internet. All of you listening out there are muted so the way that you will be communicating is through the question slash chat box. There is a raise hand option but we won't be using that today. Today's program is ECPN's third webinar. Our first webinar was on July 26, 2012 and featured Debbie Hess Norris who spoke about self-advocacy and fundraising for independent research. Our second webinar was on November 30, 2012 and featured Rosa Lowinger, Julia Brennan and Paul Messier who spoke about considering hybrid practice as a career path. Links to videos of both of these webinars can be found on AIC's YouTube account. For those who may be unfamiliar with ECPN, we are a network within AIC dedicated to supporting conservation professionals as they move through the first stages of their careers. We fulfill this mission through a range of programs including these webinars which are dedicated to topics of interest to the ECPN community. To learn more about ECPN and our range of programs please visit us on AIC's website, Facebook and the AIC blog. I quickly like to give everyone a sense of our audience today using information from the poll questions you filled out during registration. Over 65 people representing 22 states and two provinces are joining us today. 84% of our audience has had a conservation internship before. Our audience is 58% pre-program, 15% graduate students, 9% between 1 and 6 years out of school and 17% more than 7 years out of school. Overall there is a strong interest to work in an institutional setting. And now each speaker will begin by introducing themselves and either discuss the capacity in which they've worked with pre-program interns as is the case for Tom and Emily or discuss their experience as a pre-program intern as is the case for Leigh and Asha. This will be followed by two group discussion questions. We'll then wrap up with the, we'll wrap up the program with audience Q&A so please feel free to write in questions throughout the program in the question box. Many thanks to everyone for joining us today and let's get started. Tom if you'd like to begin by introducing yourself that would be great. Hi thank you Anisha. I'm obviously Tom Edmondson and I'm a senior conservator in paper photographs. I'm in private practice at Hugh Edmondson Conservation Services in Kansas City. I hope you've had a chance to read the bio that I made available. We have been involved with pre-program and program interns for several years now. But the number of pre-program interns that we have have taken in in either a paid or unpaid position has been six and I am proud to say that all of them have moved on went to graduate school and are now in the field. We've had four first year interns and two third year interns and we've had three mid-career interns have been here. I have found that working with the interns has been generally a two-way street. I feel that one, what it does is it makes me constantly rethink what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. The questions that get raised by the interns always are challenging and I appreciate that. The way we work is we try to make sure that the interns understand that they are free to question us, free to engage in conversations with us. We try to make sure that we engage the interns. It is a private practice and so they do realize that they're taking away from our capacity to generate income but we feel that what we're contributing to the field makes up for that. The way things generally work with us, the pre-program interns come in in an unpaid position initially. We start them off with a matting project where they learn to cut mats and we have them produce six different styles of mats for works of art on paper which becomes part of their permanent portfolio. As we introduce them to early preliminary procedures of conservation treatment and they become more and more proficient we try to find ways to give them an hourly pay for treatment procedures that they have mastered and can perform on their own after we've given them basic instruction. I think that what we really like to have our interns take away is a respect for all works on paper and photographs. We make sure that they understand that what we think of any given piece is not as important as what the owner thinks of it and we try to instill in them a real respect for individual people and their works as well as an understanding of what the concepts are in the field of conservation and we try to make sure that they understand that the concepts that we're teaching them don't just relate to works of art on paper photographs but they are general concepts that are generally true throughout the field. I think that's enough, I hope. Yeah, no that's great. Emily. Sorry, hi I'm Emily Williams and I'm the Archaeological Conservator at Colonial Williamsburg and over the past 18 years I've had 25 pre-program interns in the lab, 10 of whom have gone on to conservation programs, four have gone on to pursue graduate work in archaeology, two have opted to have children and one has joined the Navy so a kind of diverse range of results from the internships. I have to say that the number is high because we offer different lengths of internships if somebody is interested in just spending a month in the lab or three months in the lab I will consider that and equally if they're interested in spending a year I will. The thing that I particularly like working with pre-program interns is their enthusiasm. Everything is new to them and after working with some of the materials that I've worked with for a long time that seems very fun and refreshing to me. I also learn a lot from them similar to what Tom said. The questions that they ask make me revisit approaches. It makes me have to think how best to explain things and I find that a growth process for myself. Similar to Tom's answer it can also be a balancing act. There's a lot of different activities going on from the field work to exhibit work and sometimes keeping all those and being very present for the interns can be a task for me. I take both archaeology students and conservation students as interns partly because I feel that conservation is a really important part of the archaeology process and it's a part that archaeologists particularly historical archaeologists are just beginning to really recognize and value and I feel that by taking archaeology students I can hopefully help them see a little bit of the nuances that conservation can bring up to archaeological analysis. I can also help hopefully to dissuade some of the myths that exist in archaeology such as you just need a good battery charger and all objects can be treated and so that's one of my goals. We also take postgraduate interns and graduate interns and I love the interplay between the different levels in the lab and everybody teaching, everybody steps along the process. I was asked to talk just briefly about whether there was a difference in supervising paid or unpaid internships and most of the internships in our lab are unpaid because there isn't a funding stream. We often take unpaid internships and then interns and then find pockets of funding that allow us to hire them. I find that I feel that I have a little bit more latitude in supervising the unpaid interns because often with securing the funds to pay them I have had to argue that they will do very specific actions to get that funding and that can somewhat sometimes limit the changes in routes that we can go and the variety of artifacts that I can give people. For example, at the moment we have an intern in the lab who is being paid but part of her role is really tied to monitoring iron solutions and helping with air abrasion. Because there are very specific constraints there, we are limited in how many other projects we can give her along the way. I think that I hope that the program interns ultimately take away an appreciation of conservation and whether they go on to any other path or not. Great, thank you. Leanne? Hi, this is Leanne. I recently completed a two-year fellowship in objects conservation at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston and I'm a graduate of the Winterthur University of Delaware program in art conservation. I had five pre-program internships over the course of about four years which were all unpaid. My internships included working with a conservator in private practice at a regional conservation center, a science museum, a fine art museum, and at an archaeological excavation. So during the same time as my internships I was also taking courses part-time to meet the grad school requirements and I was also working part-to-full-time. Personally, since the additional coursework was the limiting factor influencing my timing in applying for grad school, I didn't need to rush my internship experiences, so I was happy to pick up hours here and there along the way. Several of my internships were fairly informal. I was able to drop in when I could, when it fit with my schedule, or when there were intern suitable projects available. Others of my internships were set as a very formalized number of hours or days per week and in the case of the excavation I worked on it was actually multiple weeks full time. So for me the keys to having good internship experiences were my ability to be flexible about scheduling and to be open-minded about trying new things. For example, at the regional center where I worked the objects lab wasn't accepting interns but the textiles lab was so I worked with a textile conservator and got to do some pretty cool things and I feel that the best experiences that I gained from my pre-program internships were a very broad exposure to conservation activities from environmental monitoring to treatment to outreach working in the galleries, things like that. I also think that the opportunity to work with a range of materials beyond one specialization was also something that was really great about my pre-program experience and some of my fondest memories are dry cleaning watercolor sketches on paper artworks at the Cincinnati Art Museum. I was asked to mention something that I wish I had known as a pre-program intern and looking back one of the things that I remember is that I had unrealistic ideas about what grad school was going to be like. I thought that the hardest thing about being a conservator was getting into grad school but actually grad school and what comes after are really difficult too. It's a tremendous amount of work and I'm not saying that this would have changed my mind in any way but I would have had more realistic expectations and I think that one of the most important things that these internships do is help people understand whether a career in conservation is what they would enjoy doing. Aisha? No, thank you. Hi, I'm Aisha Puentes and I'm a current third year student with the UCLA Getty Program in the Conservation of Archaeological and Ethnographic Materials and at present I'm on the first of my third year internships in Timpu, Bhutan where I'm working with the Department of Culture with the local Bhutanese conservators on wall paintings and also some Tonka and other ritual objects and my pre-program experience was a little, it was varied, there was a pretty broad range from 2008 to 2011. I worked with private practice paintings conservators and my background was in paintings actually and carpentry and I originally thought that I wanted to go into paintings so I started working with private practice paintings conservators and in Seattle and then later outside of Boston and those were paid positions actually and then just before I got into school I worked for a year with the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston in the objects lab in an unpaid position so I had a bit of a range in terms of paid positions in private practice versus a Fine Arts Museum unpaid position as well but my background as I said was in carpentry and fine art and also one of the most valuable experiences I had was working as a large-scale display fabricator which is really just the person who makes signs for museums which got me interested in structural solutions and structural problems, mount making but also creating shipping things, effectively packing them, hand skills, I also learned a lot about solvents so definitely not something that would normally count as kind of a pre-program internship it was my full-time job but I learned a lot from that as well and I think that for me really kind of sums up what I think the best part about the pre-program experience was was that I had a lot of different work experiences I had conservation focused work experiences but then I had other work experiences and a lot of that equals to me people skills you learn how to work with different types of people you learn what it means for you to be able to kind of get through that day and sit through a meeting and something about teamwork which ends up being a lot more important in conservation many people would like to think a lot of us like to concentrate on kind of the hand skills and the technical knowledge but people skills are really key and also just like Leanne was saying self-knowledge knowing what kinds of issues and problems I was attracted to and knowing that in the end I didn't want to do paintings conservation and kind of changing and having the opportunity to to get those different types of experiences and eventually end up at the UCLA program which is exactly where I wanted to be and ended up being a really good decision but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't worked through it and then as Leanne was saying something that I wish I had known as a pre-program intern something that I thought also when I originally got to grad school that I just kept repeating to myself is that it's not what you know but what you can learn and that's a really important thing to show you know admissions committees but also your supervisors everybody around you and you know it's what you can learn and it's why you want to learn it and you should enjoy it you know and I think that was the that was a really important thing for me thank you thank you everyone for all that great information I'd like to start now with our first group discussion question so you know this has been alluded to a little bit but what do you consider to be the most significant experiences and skills for a pre-program intern to gain? Well I think in a way it just ties in with Aisha's closing comments and that's identifying what it is that they really want to do and I know that that's one of the main things about the MAT project that we use is it helps people determine whether or not they actually have like basic hand skills where they can do fine measuring accurate cutting but the main thing is they should be willing to identify whether or not it's something that they wanted want to be doing and becoming comfortable with their skills I was just going to second what Tom was was saying that again I feel like a significant experience that that one might have as a pre-program intern I think is that moment the aha moment that makes you say yes this is exactly what I want to do I feel like that's hopefully something that people will experience as a pre-program that helps you reaffirm that this is this is the right path or that could be anything that could be an anything aha moment like rolling a cotton swab for the first time or walking through museum galleries at 8am before they're open to download environmental data or like Tom said maybe it's an aha moment saying actually this is not for me exactly and I think there's a sense of confidence that pre-program internships help to build with people you're you're sort of shifting a dream or an aspiration into something more concrete and you're learning the language along the way and you're learning just you know how objects feel which can be really different from the idea that oh I I've heard about this and it's what I think I want to do I remember that with the pre-program internships that I did many moons ago that that was what I felt I was getting out of it was that I had heard a talk by a conservator and thought that is a coolish job but it was getting the physical sense of what they did that I found really built my sense of confidence that it was the path that I did want to pursue I think that's a really uh this is Aisha I think that's a really good point about kind of the physical confidence and kind of even the physical language of of working in pre-program work I mean a lot you know you get to school and there is a there is an assumption that you know you have a certain amount of body awareness around objects and learning that for some people it takes longer for some people it's it's automatic well I don't know about automatic but it takes a little less time but I think that's a really important thing and and just kind of letting that set it that's not an instant process like it's something that really takes use to and ends up being coming a really important part of your job is how you handle objects so I think those really essential skills like handling those accumulate and I think that's a really important part of the pre-program experience um yeah oh and that was the other thing I was going to say is that with the swab rolling this it seems like there's also like you want to decide that it's for you they're going to be bad days obviously in pre-program experiences and they're going to be days when you're just like never mind I don't really need to do that but if you wake up the next day and you still want to go back to work or it's still compelling to you for some reason um that's a really good moment to have to kind of get through that that dark period and then come back to it I think that's a great point Aisha um I know many years ago a mentor of mine asked me what makes a what makes a conservator and I was you know giving off all kinds of highfalutin sounding comments and and and definitions and finally he goes yeah that's great Tom that's great but no the real answer is when you walk in the lab one day and you're working on the treatment and you make a mistake and you really damage something and you come back in to work the next day and you start addressing the problem that's what makes a conservator and that's one of the things that we always try to get people to understand that that when you're working on works of art particularly works of art on paper where your margin of error is non-existent things can happen and and and you have to not allow that to devastate you and and you just have to um and what we try to get our people to our students to understand is when something goes wrong look at yourself first what role did you play in it and learn from that so that you don't do it again and and being in private practice also one of the things that I know that some of our students have worried that they're taking too long to get something done and we tried to make sure that they understand that they're here to learn they're not here to be fast they're here to learn and speed comes later the important thing is for them to to learn what we're teaching them and then turn it into their own and develop speed after they've learned the learned the skill or the technique okay if there are no other thoughts we can move on to our second question um if a pre-program in turn is in a situation in which they feel they're not gaining the experience they'd like how do you recommend they proceed with addressing the situation that doesn't happen here because we make it clear from the beginning that um well one we have a discussion as to what they are anticipating and we identify whether or not we can accomplish that for them but we also make sure that they understand that um if they feel that they are not getting what they want that they need to come and tell us that so that we can correct the situation and when we have interns um I'm I'm usually periodically will say is this going where you want it to go where you think you need it to go and so I always keep that door open try to um check in with interns and make sure that they are getting what they wanted um I I know that in one case we did um have a situation where somebody felt um that it had moved that the internship had moved away from their original goals that they were finding that they were interested in other paths in conservation we're lucky here we have a number of different labs all working in the same building so interns not only get to see what we do in our lab but they get to peek into other areas and look into them and this intern was becoming more and more interested in textiles and and we tried to redefine her object the the kinds of object she was working on in the lab so that she worked on a survey of some of the archaeological textiles in the collection and so we we tried to alter things a little bit along the way um I think I oh yeah go ahead Aisha go ahead oh I was gonna say that um from the other side of that as an intern you know it's it's a really tough thing to learn kind of how to advocate for yourself especially in a professional situation you just really really want that position um but it's an important thing to do from the get-go just to say if you can you know if you don't if you aren't as lucky to have supervisors like Tom and Emily who will communicate you from the get-go sometimes you kind of have to step up for yourself and say like you know what what should I expect from you what kinds of projects are we working on what's your forecast you know and sometimes they'll just say well let's give it two weeks and and see how it works out but then at least you have an opportunity you have a checkpoint and establishing that um I think can help a lot in terms of being able to advocate for yourself as a as an intern the other thing that I think actually Emily just brought up which was a really good point is that if you're if you're really uncertain with how things are going and maybe you don't know if this is what a pre-program internship is like go visit another lab like go see see if you can reach out to anyone else who's working a pre-program internship and see what what their experiences that are um or just to our other labs ask other questions and just get more involved um because maybe it's just a lack of familiarity with what a pre-program internship is either on your part or on your supervisor's part so that maybe a little bit of research actually could help yeah I totally agree with what Aisha just said I think that um some some people aren't always as lucky to have um the same kind of mentors as Emily or Tom who are checking in with them so I think that it's so important to advocate for yourself but I think part of that is knowing what your goals are so I think it's important um to do things like Aisha said try and find out what other people are doing as well in other labs in other cities and that's part of why UC Penn is so great because there is this huge network now of people um that that can offer suggestions but um but if you have an idea of what goals you might have for yourself it's it's a good idea to try and articulate that to your supervisor um maybe to try set up something like um progress meetings every couple weeks or however um some sort at some sort of frequency even if it doesn't take very long but just so that somehow you can check in with your supervisor or they've they see these are the goals you've set for yourself and you can kind of gauge whether you're you're making progress towards those experiences you want um but I also think it's okay if if you don't feel satisfied where you are and you you legitimately try to change things I think it's okay to think about looking for something else too I would agree with that completely I think that it's it's important and we've we've had a couple of situations here where it became obvious that that what was happening here wasn't really where where the intern needed to be and we we tried to help place them or we just encouraged them not you know not everybody's a conservator and and and that's one of the things that uh you know the the pre-program experience should help define that uh you know it's okay to love conservation that doesn't mean you're cut out to be one a conservator and and don't be afraid to don't be afraid to recognize that and don't be afraid to admit it and and then decide okay so where can this go from here what do we do I think there also is a point in setting realistic goals along the way we we've had interns who um have sort of expected to or wanted to run before they can walk and occasionally one has to you know say well let's slow this down let's step back to this point and and I think that towards the end of their time in the lab they've realized some of the wisdom in that and and gotten much more realized that there was more to learn of uh of processes for example with air braiding that you know just being able to turn the machine on to get the first object through is is an amazing achievement but really feeling comfortable with very fragmentary iron surfaces which sometimes are well adhered and sometimes are horribly adhered can take a lot more time and skill development and and towards the end of the time they could see what they had learned but there was a small amount of frustration early on because they felt like well I've done that and now I need to move on to the next thing I should be writing a paper I should be doing something that'll advance me and in a direction that I see others going or that I want to go in and so I think that dialogue helps to sometimes point out the advantages in the process which may not be as readily apparent uh along the way but it also helps people to to set realistic benchmarks perhaps well I think too that that it's important when introducing even just very fundamental treatment procedures like in paper conservation dry surface cleaning um you have to explain what that means and you have to um we we try to make sure that when we're working with an an intern whatever level they are that that they understand why they're doing something not just how to do it but why they're doing it and why they're doing it the way we're showing them because like I started to say with dry surface cleaning paper how you're going to go about that depends entirely on on the on the piece of paper whether it's an oriental paper or a soft fibered paper what's the medium that's on it um you know um there are certain treatment any given treatment procedure is is going to be governed by what it is you're you're using it on and and getting people to understand the nuances and learning how to think about what they're doing and not to just do something but think about it and I just want to kind of wrap this up with the just a thought that the question is generally that if we're not getting the experience that we've that we'd like how could we proceed with addressing the situation sometimes the experiences that you don't like and I don't want to take this to an extreme where you're really torturing yourself but sometimes the things that you don't like really end up being the most valuable and I'm sure you know everyone who's an adult knows that that ours is a durational profession it has to deal with patience and constant learning and um sometimes those can be really tough activities or exercises but be patient with yourselves and be patient with your situation because probably that more than anything is what's what's needed that's a really good point Aisha thanks well that was wonderful thank you for that great discussion that really segues well into our question and answer period moderated by Eliza hi everyone as Anisha said I will be moderating the Q&A discussion which will feature questions that we received prior to the program and I noticed that no one has typed in any questions into our question box on the control panel if you have Eliza Eliza Eliza Eric excuse me this is Eric um I for some reason I seem to be the only one who can see the questions and there are at least four of them here so if you want me to read those out loud I'd be happy to it's your prompt okay great thanks Eric well we received a number of questions prior to the program so maybe we'll start with those and see how many of the questions we can get to um from during the program and any unanswered questions we'll be sure to follow up um either on the AIC blog or in a follow-up webinar um so our first question um this sort of a two-part question um our conservators willing to take on a pre-program intern with no prior experience in conservation if so what kind of knowledge or skills can a student demonstrate to secure an internship so perhaps the first part of the question might be kind of more intended for um Emily and Tom and the second part for Aisha and Leanne but please feel free to jump in on other parts I think it depends on um the conservator and the things that they have going on in their lab um I I know I have a colleague here who has an extraordinarily busy exhibit schedule um and for her um you know a pre-program um intern who has not had um experience in her media is um um would just be the straw that broke the campus back at the moment um and so she considers her lab kind of closed um in my lab that's not an issue um so it depends on the conservator I um adding to the last part if I can I think that one of the key things um that a student can demonstrate and this is going to make me sound like a old Victorian woman I'm sure but is letter writing skills um I get a lot of emails that say hey tell me about interning in your lab or tell me about the labs at CW and those are often emails that I may not answer um but you know when somebody writes me an email uses my name tells me a little bit about themselves and their interests I'm much more willing to start a dialogue with them about internships what we might have to offer etc um and so that's that's a skill that just out of the you know straight out of the gate um people can demonstrate that might help with the internships well I think that's a good point Emily um most of our pre-program people have have come to us as a result of a deliberate inquiry either via um one of their professors at the art institute here in Kansas City or um or some kind of direct formal uh communication um I I think that that's the lack of formality can be off-putting from the beginning uh that doesn't mean you have to be stilted but um you know don't approach somebody you're you want to do an internship that act like you've known them for 20 years because you haven't and um we we try to run things professionally casually here but um professional is is a is a key element um most of the interns that we've had have not had any prior uh conservation experience and and that is not a game-ender for us that's that's where we begin at that um but if you want to show some kind of skill have some kind of a portfolio and um you know that shows some artwork that you've done some craftsmanship that you've done have some kind of a portfolio that you can you can show that says you know this is this is where I am but I want to go somewhat else with it uh that's that to me is is important be thinking about that and um you're you're taking your pre-program internship to learn about conservation and so we don't expect people to know much more than the field exists frequently and and and the fact that they are interested in pursuing that is is often you know a big thing to bring is is just a level of awareness and interest and then your internship is going to put you on that path. Thanks Tom and Emily for those great thoughts um Leanne and Ayesha did you have anything to add to that um I think those guys have excellent points I've I've seen it be very situational about whether a conservator accepts someone with experience or none so I think it I think we can definitely we all got to start somewhere right but um as far as tangible things that a student can demonstrate um Tom mentioned crafts and art studio art so whether that's portfolio photographs or some way to demonstrate that you um have some form of hand skills um I feel like I may have needed to supply my school transcript at one point so one of the internships that I did um I think that was part of it so that's I don't know one thing to think about Ayesha yeah um I definitely didn't have to turn in any school transcript I think mine was definitely mine was my experiences were a lot more situational or just a lot of times it just happened to be it's certainly the first time um the first person who really took me on I did have a background in painting and carpentry and um and had some hand skills but it was a I just happened to call him at the right moment and he had the right project there and he said would you like to come work for me and I think I I think I don't I don't even think I was looking for an internship at the time and I know it's there are many people are hissing at me right now because I really didn't I accidentally wandered into a pre-program internship but um it it really is situational and I have since then especially with summer internships and and my third year internships and even in pre-program situations I sent out so many letters and made so many phone calls that just weren't returned don't get discouraged yeah a lot of times it's like Emily was just saying it's like you know sometimes you just can't respond and maybe that's a question of you working on yourself presentation um which is a really key point it's really important um but also maybe it's just that they just can't respond so just keep going um if this is something you really want to do stick with it and eventually someone will get back to you I promise. Thanks Leanne and Aisha and that actually um sort of addresses another question we received which is if you've applied for a pre-program position and have tried following up by email and phone and and say you are someone who's written a really excellent letter um and you haven't received a response how do you recommend proceeding so Aisha you said you know you kind of intimated that one should just kind of keep going um do others have any thoughts about that no I think I think that is the answer I know it's happened a couple of times here because you know you know I get a a message left on my desk that says so-and-so called and that sometimes is a dangerous thing to do is leave a message for me on my desk uh but most of the time when something goes unresponded it's probably just due to the fact that the conservator is really busy and and you just have to persevere and I know that there've been a couple of times here where I sometimes took three weeks to get back to somebody but once we made the connection it was definitely worth it and uh and it worked out and it's um at least from my perspective it's it's not due to deliberate ignoring it's just due to a very full schedule and if that's and sometimes you just have to you know leave a message saying I'm trying to get in touch with you will you please respond and that should get you a response this is Leanne I something Tom said reminded me of something that's happened to me when I was at the MFA um sometimes people will call asking to come for a visit to the lab or other things like that and they'll they'll leave a voicemail and they won't they won't repeat themselves the the way that the voicemails they mumble their name they mumble the phone number to reach them that or an email and it's virtually impossible to even understand to reply to that person because the the way that they've reached out to communicate is is so garbled if you will I mean that's a terrible way to put it but I think if you're trying to to make a connection you need to do everything to really articulate so people can contact you back it seems kind of like common sense but I've had that happen multiple times even in the last year or two so I know it happens I think it's really important if you if you want that to connect I think probably email is one of the better ways to get someone's attention um and if you are leaving a voicemail it's always a good thing to try to repeat your name multiple times and the phone number you're trying to um to leave for someone I know that's a good point Leanne sounds simple but it's true and enunciate yeah enunciate the telephone number don't run through it real quickly because I've had many people leave their phone number and they just say it so quickly I can't I can't figure it out and that tends to irritate me and prompts me not to even try to respond I think too the point about an email is is a great point and I would just add that um occasionally one gets an email that has 20 questions in it um which is is wonderful that somebody is that enthusiastic that they've sat down and they've thought about what they want to ask um but it can be very daunting to then set and compose that response especially uh when other things may be going on around and so um sometimes um being able to say you know is there a time that I could phone you to ask you these questions that um could I come and visit the lab whatever that those sometimes are easier to um to respond to where it's a discrete request usually that's if somebody leaves a some kind of a message or sends me an email with a list of questions I usually just go ahead and invite them I don't try to respond directly to the their questions I usually just say let's set a time when you can come and visit and I can answer those questions in person during during your visit and I think that's an important point about making an introduction in the first place is that you can you know just write an email and say I'm interested in a pre-program internship and here's a little bit about me etc but you know a lot of times it's helpful just to say like can't I'm interested in conservation may I come to visit you because that's also a lot easier thing to to say yes to I think from a um from kind of a hosting institution point of view they're like yeah you can come and visit and we'll look around and that doesn't they're necessarily committed to that but if they have a face to the name or if you tell them that you are interested in the internship um or an internship or any experience I think that really helps I think it's good to go and see as many people as you can because sometimes if it's not them they know someone else um so kind of making yourself visible and also just saying hello to people face to face and presenting yourself as a you know human being when you can to you know to the best of your ability obviously across money to move and and travel and things but I think um you know there's nothing wrong with just sending an email that says can I come visit you yeah I wanted to also make a comment that um to the original question about if you've applied for a program and haven't received a follow-up um or having trouble getting a response I think one thing you might do in your follow-up messages is to ask if they can refer you anywhere else to another institution or a conservator in the area or another thing you could do is ask for recommendations about things that you might be able to improve on to make yourself a stronger candidate in the future so I'm kind of saying you know you might be at that stage of moving on but you might want to see if there's some helpful information they might be able to some feedback they might be able to give to you beyond the feedback that you probably already know that you may not have gotten the position well thank you all for all of those really great thoughts and helpful suggestions we have a number of other great questions Anisha do you think we have time for one other question yeah we have a few minutes so maybe we can quickly go through one more question okay um another question we received is um what jobs outside of conservation are useful in gaining pre-program experience so I guess when I think about this question um Tom and Emily you know as you're reviewing resumes are there certain jobs outside of conservation that kind of stick out to you as being um you know that have transferable skills and likewise Aisha and Leanne are there jobs outside of conservation that you've had that you feel like have helped you transfer to conservation so for us um you know we've had people who've had experience working in a frame shop um or worked uh you know as a you know under lower level preparator in a museum uh or worked in the gallery an art gallery as as a handler um anything like that I think conservation is such a diverse field that one can argue that almost any job can feed into it I mean um you know as as conservators are more more involved with talking to the public any kind of public speaking or service kind of jobs can feed into it I think that one of um the things that I look for is how the candidate convinces me that their experience relates to what they want to do um and and why so I'm looking for the sentence about um this is what I'm interested in and here's the background I bring to it and that I hope informs it in this way um because I really think you can make a case and and that's one of my favorite questions to ask established conservators is how did you become a conservator what path did you take because there's such a divergence of paths and and they're so fascinating and people came from such different directions that it's always a fun the answer to get absolutely um well thank you so much for those thoughts I notice it's just one o'clock um so Leanne and I'm sorry you weren't able to participate in that question but we will be um following up on all of these questions um so that will give you an opportunity to weigh on them at that point but Anisha I want to pass it back to you thank you Iza and thank you so much to Tom Emily Leanne and Aisha for this informative discussion and for sharing your thoughts on such an important topic for emerging conservators thank you Eliza for moderating the Q and A discussion and finally thank you so much to AIC and ECPN for all of your hard work producing this program and to you for tuning in today's program was recorded and will be made available on AIC's YouTube account we hope this program is useful to you all and please contact any ECPN officer with ideas for future programs have a good afternoon thank you thank you it was great to do