 Good evening and welcome to episode 393 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Uzaman Dunwoa Kumalo. It's the Friday edition of the Private Property Podcast. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome it to the family. You're tuned into the only daily property show in the country that helps you on your property needs. And all our regular viewers on Facebook, on Instagram, as well as on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how we do every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7 p.m. I'm always in conversation with the property expert who helps us make better property decisions. And we're going to be doing just that this week, this Friday, as we certainly get ready for the weekend and wrap up the week that was. I want to find out from you at home how you're doing, how has this week been? And certainly today, I mean, those of you following me on my social media pages that I've seen, I went hiking earlier, I was telling my guests that I just come from a hike, literally got drained on. But because the show always continues, we're certainly going to be exploring a great conversation, looking at how to get started in real estate development. But of course, at 8 p.m. every single weekday, you can also catch other great shows across private properties, social media pages. As it is a Friday, Chad is going to be bringing you the Home Shoppers show. And that also comes to your screens on Mondays, where he takes us through incredible properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.za. And every Tuesdays and Thursdays, Ombali Nwagok brings you the farming podcast, tackling all things agriculture. And one of the great things about, you know, when we talk agriculture, as you know, I'm growing a bit of garden at home. The rain has been amazing for my spinach. There's something else I've grown. I suspect it's cabbage, but I'm not sure I planted it and I forgot to put a marker on what it is. And now I've lost track of what exactly it is. So we'll see the next two months or so, you know, what it grows up to be. But I suspect it may have been cabbage. So that's something that, of course, you can look forward to. Take advantage of the rain. I think it's quite a great boost for when you are growing your own garden, your own veggies at home. And of course, then on Wednesdays, Esti Klassen brings you the first time home buyers show, where she's always in conversation with people who've not only walked that first time home buying journey, but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from strength to strength. But those are the great shows that you can look forward to around here across private properties, social media pages, every single weekday at 8 p.m. I can already see some of the, you know, regular viewers tuned in. Matashina is saying fricky fricky black friday moguls want to find out from you. What did you get this black friday? I know many of you wanted, you know, some other property related black friday special, unfortunately, we can't quite get those. I actually stayed up until midnight for some of the black friday things I wanted to order online. We've also got a Nelda Everton glad sharing that also sending through those green hearts and watching share with us what do you what good find did you buy. And let's see if we can take advantage of some of it as well. Well, to kick start our conversation, I am joined by Cliff Coperts, who's a business director as well as a development manager at 181 DEV Co. Cliff, good evening, and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening, Simon. It's a pleasure to be with you and to have an opportunity to interact with all your guests. Thank you for having me. I think it's such a pleasure to have you, Cliff, our conversation this evening. We're looking at how to get started in real estate development. Before we even look at the how and what you should look out for some of the great opportunities, when we talk about, you know, real estate development, what exactly are we talking about? What is this thing when it comes to property development? Well, I think it's a very, very broad term and a very broad expression that you're utilizing. In my mind, I look at vacant land, I look at land that is completely empty, and I try and establish what will be the best use for that land that will make commercial sense. So it can be open land, it can be land that is redeveloped. In other words, a property, you know, one of the things that's happening a lot in South Africa at the moment is there's a lot of redevelopment of existing buildings into other uses. And I think that's going to be a pattern that we see going forward for some time, given the high levels of vacancies in office buildings and certain nodes in the country, and obviously a lot of demand for residential spaces. We have a massive population and a massive housing shortfall. So, you know, for me, the question about what is real estate development is very, very broad, and I could probably go on for hours and hours on it. So I think we need to possibly look at saying we've got a piece of land, we need to take a piece of land that's non-income producing, and how do we then make it a viable commercial income producing asset? Be that a residential asset, an office, retail space for shopping, industrial space, and anything in between or a combination of all of those items. And Cliff, I like that you've pointed out just how broad it is, because on the one hand it's also exciting for those who are watching, because it means that there are different kinds of avenues that they could potentially tap into if they want to become developers, they're different kinds of developments. And, you know, for purposes of our conversation, we'll look at land that people want to develop primarily for residential purposes. And it can be mixed use, because we also just know that diversifying your land or the way that you use your land as much as possible has quite a lot of great benefits. So when we look at the highest and best use of a particular piece of land, you really do want to have it mixed use in certain instances. So when we look at somebody who's perhaps an aspiring developer, and obviously at the scale, we're certainly looking at a slightly smaller scale developer, where you do have a piece of land and you're looking to develop it for residential purposes. And then what are some of the key things that you need to be aware of? Because we're seeing a lot of people who are spotting those opportunities, you know, whether it is in townships, where they're seeing, you know, some open land and want to, for instance, build apartments, and sometimes in relatively semi-urban areas where there is quite a lot of demand for quality, but affordable housing, but that isn't being built by the bigger developers. So for those people who are looking to play in that small development space or developer space, what are some key things that they need to be aware of before they even start their journey of even buying that piece of land? Yeah, you know, I think one of the great difficulties in property development is that there's generally a couple of barriers to entry. One of the largest barriers to entry is obviously access to money, access to the finance, access to do you have the capital because buying a piece of land is very seldom cheap. And, you know, if you're buying a piece of land, you also find yourself in a position where you don't have income producing property, you don't have an income producing asset. So access to capital is absolutely crucial. And then compounding matters or making things more complicated is that to try and raise money when you don't have experience or expertise makes it almost impossible to raise money, because who wants to go and provide finance to somebody that isn't experienced. So, you know, these are some of the biggest barriers to entry. And that's why I think it's really important for people to try and do joint ventures to secure land on a joint venture basis in order to limit the capital requirements, and then also to try to find partners that have the necessary expertise. There is nothing like learning from other people. And this is very, very important in property development. You know, it's an incredibly dynamic game. You know, you were talking about the rain before we started, as we started the program, and you were talking about going on a hike and the rain for your gardens. Well, rain is a nightmare for developers, and it's a pleasure for developers because it just depends when the rains come. You want the rains, but you want the rains to come at the end of the project so that you can identify leaks, you can identify problems. You certainly don't want the rains when you're starting to do foundations because you spend one, you spend one day digging the foundations, the next day it rains, you spend the next day digging the foundations again, and you can go backwards. So, you know, this game is an incredibly dynamic game, and if you're not a person that can deal with the constant changes, the constant bumps in the road, then this isn't going to be a game for you because you're constantly dealing with issues. It's the nature of the game. And, you know, Cliff actually loved that she even mentioned the difficulty with building and the climate, of course, that you build in. You know, there's a topic that we had had with Ululu, Musakira a few weeks ago when we're looking at, you know, home renovation projects and the different kinds of home renovation projects that we have, and how during the winter season we're having this conversation in winter, that winter is a great time for certain home renovation projects because you know you're not going to be disturbed by rain, so sometimes you literally have half of, you know, the wall in your lounge is not there, and you know you can just put the plastic over and kind of carry on about your day. The worst you'd feel is just experience some cold, but we don't do that in summer because it could just rain, so you almost have to build very strategically in summer and understanding that as somebody who's starting off in property development is so crucial that you lose time. It is quite a significant bit of time, so timing when you start your project and when different phases of that project are going to, you know, to be even from a climate perspective becomes so important, and I think that that's some of, those are probably some of the basics that you won't even pick up in school, right? Like that's just industry stuff that you pick up once you have done it, but talking of some of the basics, Cliff, what are some of the sort of basic fundamentals that a property developer should probably be aware of or an aspiring property developer who's looking at a small-scale, you know, development project based fundamentals of, you know, property development that you really need to always be on top of, regardless even of the scale of your particular project? So, you know, the beauty and property development is that if you're looking at a small project or you're looking at the large project, the fundamentals and the principles remain the same. So, you know, that's why earlier on I was talking about getting experience. There's nothing wrong with getting experience on a small project because you can then apply those principles. So, some of the fundamentals that we look for, and I just, again, I just want to go back a little bit, you were talking about the rains in summer. Well, it depends on what part of the country you are in, you know, don't go and try to do your winter renovations in Cape Town because the rains happen to come in winter. And you know, it's just religious and never ending. Well, you know, the problem is that and people assume that, well, in Johannesburg, that's when the rains come. Well, Cape Towns are completely, it's completely opposite. And, you know, you go and you plan around thinking about Johannesburg climate. Well, it's a totally different ballgame. So, you know, for me, one of the first things I'll do is I look at a piece of land and, you know, I might have an idea, I might be looking for, I might have a viewpoint that there is a demand for residential units. I spend a lot of time with agents because I spend a lot of time with agents and I spend a lot of time on private property website because there is a wealth of information. And if you continually following what's happening in a particular area, you see properties on your websites that are there, they're there for a long time. You see them get sold and you have an ability to access the internet and your website and get a wealth of information about a particular area that you're looking at. So, you find a piece of land. The first thing I'll do is I get hold of a town planner. And I need to understand what are the rights on that property. Because understanding that a property can come with its own rights, it comes and that basically tells you what can be developed on that property. Now, that's not cost in stone because you can then go through to the local municipalities and have that property rezoned to change and amend those rights. So, it's very, very important to understand that every property has limitations on what can be developed on that property. But you do have an opportunity to amend those rights. It's just a procedural process that you need to understand and you need to be guarded on. And again, going to speak to people at the council, okay, at your local municipalities, there's a wealth of information that you can garner and that's going to help guard you in selecting areas that you want to develop. The other thing that's very, very important to understand also from council is you need to understand what the infrastructure is capable of taking. They might turn around and say to you, it's a great area for densification, in other words, for producing more residential opportunities or residential properties, but currently we don't have capacity for electricity. So, you can't, you've got and you've bought a beautiful piece of land that you think you can develop. But guess what? You can't get electricity, so you can't do development. Now, you spent a large amount of money on a piece of land that you can't do anything with. And this is very, very important and it relates to surge, it relates to water supply, it relates to electricity, it relates to the full infrastructure. So again, if you're looking at a piece of property, you need to understand what rights can we get, what is the best use for that property, and do we have the necessary infrastructure that can support the development that you're proposing. Now, you may find that council turn around and say, yes, we've got the infrastructure, but we have to bring in surge or stormwater or electricity from very, very far away. And suddenly you have to pay for those betterment costs and suddenly you're paying more to bring in a stormwater or infrastructure than you've paid for the land itself. Suddenly your transaction is no longer viable. So it's really important to go in up front and to gain as much information as possible in order for you to properly plan. And I cannot stress to you how important it is to plan any project that you do. Take the time, think the project through and build it on paper. Yes, you've got a whole lot of assumptions that you're going to apply but through the process you're going to test your assumptions to make sure that you ultimately arrive at the outcome that you're looking for. I think these are certainly so important and so crucial because more often than not, and we're seeing this quite a bit, people are buying properties in residential areas and in some, it's residential areas that have been fairly, we'll say already fairly set up. So they're not new areas and yet these pieces of land that have been vacant for quite a substantial period of time. And for me, one of the first things that you ought to be asking is why was that piece of land vacant this whole time? Why has nobody else bought it and built something over it? Perhaps there's servitude lines that are running underneath that actually prevent you from building a certain way and that's why nobody has actually even wanted to touch that property. And so when you want to then develop, you're not just looking at building your dream house and if they're very restrictive servitude lines that are running, you're okay with it because you know that that could just be nice open space, it's a garden. The moment you're thinking of a developer, you're not trying to have massive gardens, especially if you've got relatively small piece of land. You're really looking at how you can maximize that space as much as possible. So understanding all these fundamentals becomes so important. And as you pointed out, there's something that should be doing with any type of property or scale of project. It's not only the small scale developers, the big scale developers also do this. They do it months before we see the billboards coming out and of course being able to buy. We are at home taking your questions and comments this evening as we explore how to get started in real estate development and in conversation with Cliff Cooperates, who's a business director and development manager at 181 Dev Co. Matashinang is saying, I saw only one developer offer Black Friday, we need urgent family meeting with the property and industries about with the property and fuel industries about Black Friday promos. I was actually thinking about how a Black Friday promo for fuel would be actually such a needed kind of special. Quinta got on our Facebook page saying I dreamt buying property for one rand Black Friday on private property website. That is absolutely never going to happen. I think even the deeds office would look at that and say, no, there's something that doesn't add up. You can't transfer a property for a rand in this day age that almost needs to at the very least like make it 10,000 for it to look somewhat legitimate. Polina was saying yes, joint ventures help with experience and that's of course to the point Cliff was making earlier that sometimes when you're starting over, especially as a developer, you don't want to go at it alone. There's certainly quite a lot of lessons that you can learn when you go in with other people. I want to take a quick break, find out who the lucky winner of the competition that we're running on our Facebook page is. We've got five things, a thousand rands. I had a roll over yesterday. So a thousand rands in the money bag and let's see if the lucky winner is going to be watching. In the meantime, I will go back to more of your questions and comments and of course continue our conversation talking real estate development and the lucky winner of that thousand rands that is in the money bag this evening, it's for Lucemia. So Lucemia, congratulations to you. You are the potential lucky winner. Remember the only way you can get your hands on that thousand rands that is in the money bag is to drop us a message down here below in order to claim your prize. Well, continue with our conversation on how to get started in real estate development. I'm in conversation with Cliff Cooper, who is a development manager at 1-8-1-DIV-CO. Cliff, you've started partially answering the next question that I want us to explore and this is around then vetting a property. And you've already kind of looked at some of the things that you need to be considering. We'll see in the vetting process. Now that you've got an essence of the title deed, if there are any title deed restrictions, what the zoning is, and you're very clear that the zoning meets what you want to do with the property, how else should you be vetting, particularly land that you want to develop obviously for residential purposes? What are some of the other factors that you should be considering in the vetting process beyond what does the title deed say and what are the restrictions, if any, on that particular deed? So the process I generally go through, it's exactly that. The first thing I look at is I first go in and I try to understand what is the current market. I never want to be developing the best product in the worst area. You know, I want to understand what the market is and I want to be providing the market with a value proposition that maybe isn't already in that market. I'll describe a couple of developments that I've done where that is the case. But I like to look at the zoning. I like to look at the title deed restrictions. I like to make certain the services from council are available. And then I like to understand what the market is, what product I need to be developing. And then having an understanding of building costs is absolutely crucial because how do I know what I can sell a product for if I don't know what my input costs are? And that is absolutely crucial. I've walked away from many pieces of land because I simply cannot build it for what the current market is selling out at. In other words, it's more expensive than I can sell the product for. And that's whether that's going to be a leasing scenario, sorry, a sell out scenario or a leasing scenario. Ultimately, you've got to get a return on your money. And if there's no return on your money, then run for the hills. I've come across developers in the past that have sometimes said to me, don't worry about how much I'm paying for the land because I'm going to build it really cheap. And invariably that never works. And my belief is that if you buy property at the right price, you will make a success of the development. But you have to understand that the construction component I'm talking typically residential developments is often between 60 and 70% of the total costs. So if you don't manage that delivery exceptionally well, you can run into a lot of trouble. So again, to talk back to your points of what do we look at? I look at the market. I look at the opportunity for development on the particular piece of land. I look at the title deed restrictions. I look at service availability. I'm talking about the municipal services, electricity, water, stormwater, and sewage. And then I look at what my ultimate selling prices are. And if those all stack up and I can make my typically developers look at making a profitability of 20% of total cost before tax, if I'm not able to tick those boxes, allowing some contingencies because there's always unknowns, then I don't want to proceed with the transaction. You know, I'm very, very risk-versed because there are so many risks in this industry. And there certainly are risks, you know, Cliff. And I think so many people underestimate the different kinds of risks, but also understanding some of the drivers of those risks. You know, I liked what you said earlier on that it's not good enough. You don't want to provide the best product in the worst sort of market and in the worst area. And I think we're seeing quite a lot of that, that, you know, some developments are absolutely beautiful, finishes also look great, but the area just does not make sense. And the price point in that area doesn't make sense. And that's why we end up then finding developers while offering you, you know, levies for free for a year. The moment a developer has to do something like that, you know that they didn't adequately do their market analysis and things went wrong in ways where they're now trying to get consumers in by offering these incentives that for the most part, they also just did not budget for. But they have to get people signing on, they have to get them in those units or have to sell those units as much as possible. So understanding those basics and understanding the fundamentals and not drinking the Kool-Aid, because we're seeing quite a lot of that in different kinds of developments, is so crucial, especially if you're going to be in it for the long haul, as one typically is when it comes to real estate, and really being clear on what the fundamentals are and understanding the trends in the different areas. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up, because we see it a lot, especially in Joburg. I mean, the bullish building, and I talk about it all the time, in parts of Joburg, we know is not driven by adequate, you know, market analysis, we are, you know, developers are building for the sake of building. And that's why they say they're finding themselves with, you know, such high vacancy rates in many instances of having to try and adapt how they even go about building. And I think it probably brings me to the next question, then when we look at phasing your development, so this is for the guys who are doing a few units, so you're not looking, let's look at perhaps more than 10 units. But you know that you're also still a small skilled developer, you are of course going to be, you know, cash strapped, and you may have, you know, financing, you know, partially from the bank, partially from private investors. How should, you know, new developers be thinking through the phasing approach when it comes to their developments? So phasing is really important, particularly when access to capital is restricted. You know, it's great to go out and build everything all at once, if you don't have any restrictions on capital. But the reality is that's not how the real world operates. Being a developer I've learned is primarily about managing risks and what my risk appetite is. I can tell you that a lot of people go and will look at cluster developments. And what I mean by cluster development, that is where you sell a piece of land together with a building package. And why a lot of developers do that is because they can transfer the piece of land once it has services in and council has accepted those services. Right. And the developer has a much lower capital requirement because he's only putting work in the ground. And he might do a boundary wall and some common areas. But the building of each individual house has to be financed by the purchaser. So the capital requirements in that situation is a lot less than if the developer builds a sectional title scheme where he can only transfer out once it is complete. Now they're pros and cons in all of those scenarios because as a developer, you now reliant on your purchaser having the necessary finance in place to find the top structures and you also reliant on council accepting the services which then allows you to transfer the individual urban. I'm really concerned about our councils and the efficiencies in our councils. So I happen to prefer sectional title developments which comes at a massively more capital intensive product or project for me. But I feel like I've got more control and I'm able to go and build everything all at once. Now that doesn't mean I haven't phased sectional title developments also because again, depending on what your capital limitations are, I might go and do 20 units at a time per phase. Again, because I want to go in, I want to get pre-sales, I want to sell out my product or plan, I want to know that the market has accepted my product. It's the best indication that my product is accepted by the market is getting sales. You know to go out and spend all this money and capital and then only try and achieve sales for me is very, very risky. And as I mentioned earlier, I'm quite risk averse. I'm jumping over at quite a few topics here. No, no, and I like that you are because the reality is they do interlinks. So you almost kind of look at some of them in isolation because the reality of property is that they're multiple things that have to work together for us to end up of course enjoying the homes that we live in. We've got a great question here from Omensable Thileses who asks, where does one get involved with developments and how much capital does one need to invest in a development? I want to put a context to this one Cliff because there used to be a time, not so much now, but there certainly used to be a time where buying into a new development used to be this lucrative thing where you know that you could buy very early on before the developer even breaks ground and by the time they're sort of done with their development, you'd be able to even make over 30% of what you paid for. Those opportunities are very few in front between now to the point where you almost have to have a personal relationship with the developer to have that kind of deal and if you have very deep pockets to help finance that particular project. So I want us to answer that question also just in the context of for normal people who may perhaps have the capital and want to put it behind somebody's venture, they're not by any means a developer themselves, they want the perks of the returns of putting their money behind perhaps somebody like yourselves as opposed to them going and developing something from scratch. How does one then get involved with those kinds of business transactions or business setups? So I just want to go back a couple of years if I can. I think the new credit act came into being I'm taking a guess here so please don't scold me if I'm out a couple of years this is probably 2005 to 2007 is when the new credit act came into being and what used to happen before that you know we came in we were as part of the cycle we were very much on an upward trend and developers were launching developments and they were taking a thousand rand or two thousand rand or five thousand rand deposits and they were then starting to build and before the development was complete the purchaser had onsold that unit and for 30 or 40 or 50 thousand rand more than they bought the unit now that never even taken transfer of the unit that put down a thousand rand or five thousand rand and that made 10 20 times on the money that they had actually put down to secure the unit and then the new credit act came into being and that limited home loans being granted as easily as they used to be you know the banks almost didn't speak to each other and you could take your one pay slip to every different institution and they would grant you roughly 30 percent of that pay slip they would grant you as a home loan and they didn't truly analyze affordability and the new credit act came into came into being and I think that saved us from a massive economic slump when the 2008 financial crisis initially hit and it really I think it saved it saved us massively so I think we've done some good things in our economy that has maybe kept the cycle going a little bit longer we then hit another sort of cycle in 2014 to about 2018 where there was again this upward trend and I can tell you that when the market is really good people make money almost despite themselves you know they go out that by property property prices increase it's a good development it's a bad development the prices just increase and as the market turns that suddenly when you see how good that developer or that development really is and what the fundamentals were behind that transaction so what I'm trying to say is a lot of a lot of bad business is done in good times and a lot of good business is missed in bad times because become because people become too too risk averse for somebody to come in to become involved in development or to throw capital behind it you know it sounds to me your question is about a passive investor and and to me a passive investor is somebody that doesn't want to get involved in the running of a development doesn't necessarily want to learn about a development he wants to put his money behind somebody and back them similarly to putting shares in buying shares on the stock exchange it's it's purely an investment now for me if I go look at an investment on the stock exchange I'd like to analyze the company I like to understand what the company trades in have an understanding of the industry look at what the differentiators are of that company to see if I believe that there's future profitability for that for that company the same principles again apply in property development and the beauty in property development is you can often get involved in a particular project on a project by project basis the thing is that I don't see and I don't know if you've heard of too many property developers that are looking to raise money from from individual people yeah from passive in from passive from passive investors and and you know I have seen some of those sort of transactions taking place in the past and unfortunately I often haven't have heard bad they've had bad results yeah so I know there've been a couple of transactions I think there was a hotel that was developed in Port Elizabeth where the developer went and raised money from individuals and and no one was actually managing and kept an eye on the investment and those developments a lot of those developments unfortunately failed so I'm not really answering your question if your guys want to call me I mean get in get hold of a couple of developers big name developers find out if they're looking for for for capital and you know there's the venture funds there was 12j investments that guys are we're taking we're getting involved in but those are all really financial financial products that people were getting more involved in as opposed to sort of saying I want to get involved in property development so I'm sorry I'm not really providing you with a very succinct or direct answer to your question no and and I think the the reason why I wouldn't be succinct or direct you know cliff is to paint a more holistic picture of what what the the status quo in the industry is where was pretty you know historically and and understanding how to navigate it now I think and even as an individual who may have some funds that you want to use for purposes of you know investing in somebody's development needing to understand why is it that they're looking for individual investors as opposed to you know not having access to whether fund funding or perhaps you know obviously there'll be a component of it that may be from you know certain institutions that should all that if anything you as a party that has funds that should be part of your own due diligence when you're dealing with people who are looking at having funds especially their numbers don't make sense because some of them might be the first project they're doing slightly small scale less than 10 units and you know offering very high returns that are not realistic given the market that we're in so those are some of the the nuggets that I think are very helpful for people at home but as we wrap up if we have run out of time any final tips for viewers at home who want to venture into property development there's there's two things I want to say the first the first thing I want to say is that do your homework yeah and and and do you know there is so much information that is ready available pick up the phone ask people for information I find people in property development and construction are happy to share information um you have to have to do your homework nothing will there's nothing like doing your homework and doing the planning behind it and the second thing I want to say is I actually do have a development that I'm busy with and I am happy to offer a Black Friday special if you will allow me to I think I mean you can definitely do a quick plug and viewers at home we have shared also the link to a website so they can also reach you directly but a few seconds for that plug of the no fantastic fantastic I'm doing a development in Waverly I've got 11 11 units of about 250 square meters three bedroom three bathroom I'm happy that if anyone comes direct direct through to me from from this private from this this this podcast I'm happy to offer 150 000 and discount on the first unit that comes through from this podcast okay so all the information is on is on my website 181 www 181devco.co.ca and that's where you need to go we have shared the link uh on the on this particular live below the slide so you can go uh there do you say that you would have reached uh Cliff via the show and that's how you can certainly get access to that discount Cliff it's been such a pleasure to have a chat with you thank you so much for joining us this evening thank you Andrew and good night and I hope all your viewers have a great weekend and please keep safe keep uh COVID free and healthy and that is Cliff Cooper it's who's a business director and the development manager at 181 Devco wrapping up that conversation on how to get started in real estate development and fortunately it's who was not watching and did not claim uh that prize money that was a thousand ransom was in the money bag so we've got to roll over to 1500 runs on Monday well that's it for myself it was a month don't walk my little wrapping up the Friday edition of the private property podcast for myself and the team will be back on Monday and as usual hoping you're staying home and staying safe