 One two three four one two three Okay, welcome to the Monday, January the seventh meeting the Montalier design review committee Let staff and members introduce themselves Meredith Crandall staff Stephen Everett Mitchell Benjamin Cheney and unless anybody has anything else to offer do I hear a motion to approve our agenda tonight? So moved. I'll second. Second. All in favor of the agenda raise your hand Agenda is approved We also have a election re-election of chair and vice chair Do I hear any new nominations from the committee? I'm happy with its current status It's a motion to maintain current status. Do I hear a second? I second it. All in favor of maintaining the current staff We'll move forward to the first application is for 112 to 116 Main Street on our applicant Sam Shippey Family I care And is Sam here Okay, if you're representing him come up to the table and introduce yourself Tate Describe the work on the building the current building has three shops at ground floor with mixed offices With the upstairs having three market rate Apartments and the external alterations Are fairly minor there are on the front facade Three windows at the second floor which if it's handy if you have that to look at the first sketch shows the existing arrangement, which is The windows divided with one large light in the middle and two Either side and the proposal is to make them more traditional in appearance so that they're more fitting for the If you look at any historic photographs to see what No, we don't have original photographs that I'm aware at the moment. I haven't seen them So the proposal is to alter the three windows to be three pairs of windows and Then on the alleyway Which is probably easier to see on either the elevation of the three dimensional There are a couple of small windows Window arrangement at second floor is quite irregular We're proposing a minor alteration increasing the size of two small windows to better fit The arrangement of the apartments inside and also to regularize the window arrangement slightly so There's that existing 402 and then DR 001 for the two. We should be looking at for the numbers So existing 402, and then if you want exactly the same view for the proposal to be DR 402 Yeah, sorry the elevation I've just noticed that that little rectangle should actually be an existing window. I'm sorry I'm not sure why that hasn't shown up properly on mine has it on yours No, but that that's a very small window and the proposal is To increase the size of that one and another small window So those two windows Would be enlarged and they were previously that one and that one and Essentially they're done so that they get better light into the apartments at first floor Is there any Physical evidence that you've seen that you could restore the size of the windows or were they made smaller or is this the way it was? the We think that the brick facade on this face was We think it was original, but it's built in such a way that it's a bit like a Curtain wall so that there may have been different openings behind but we don't think so we think that I mean these We think that these have been altered at some point, but we don't have a record of when and what the shape were previously your sketch On the front facade, yes Know the actually 401 Yes, I'm really sorry that has come up as existing Yes, I'm afraid that there is a the sorry about that the correction on sheet 401 View number one currently says existing and that's wrong I'm afraid I should say propose. I'm sorry On sheet DR 401, which is the proposal the proposed elevations View one currently says existing and I'm afraid that's wrong. It should say Sketching what is in the neighborhood shows shows paired windows. Yeah Lights Yeah, the sketch did not show the divided lights Readable at that scale Guess the sketch seem more keeping with Yes I think our thought was that because the building has divided lights on the other faces that we would keep divided lights on the facade And I believe that the windows of Jason although the photograph particularly clear on that one I think there's a single divide is it on the one adjacent So I think we'd be happy to consider Makes sense The question about the divided lights there, I think our our intention was to Was to replicate the other windows on the building in terms of the division of the lights Yeah, and using the existing openings and the existing openings would be remain the same. Yes Is any of the sighting going to be changed your second or remain the same? No, that's remaining the same On the front. Yes, or actually all sides. Yeah, the proposal is not to change any of the surface and The only other alterations were the proposal for an additional window on the rear elevation Which is shown? On DR 401 the comparison would be the existing one is EX 401 So those are the comparison views there Existing building has a blank face at second floor and the proposal would be for the addition of a window in the kitchen area Okay, there The existing results are shown on the photograph page There would be an addition of a window on This door exists that existing door Yeah The two doors at the back of the Two other units would actually go because the eye care would have offices in that area And then there's one additional window And that is to a landing on the second floor just to get light into the back end of the landing The comparison view there And that's in the courtyard at the back so you would not be able to see it unless you were in the courtyard So there's the new window So we are replacing getting rid of that door in the back There is yeah, okay. No, I just wasn't on the Yeah, the door the doors at the back of the Yep So the yes the proposed elevations Yeah, there is a mixture in the existing they're not all the same Yeah, there's lots of lots of different patterns the the original block of the building we think is that block there So most of those are consistent patterns except for the oddball ones up at second floor and then it changes to a different pattern in What was at one point in extension to the rear? So this construction is different than that There's that's why the windows windows change at that point from Well the intent for these two windows was to match So those are the two enlarged windows and the intent was to match the other ones of similar size in that area And the divided lights because the ones next door are the same Divided lights going to be true. They would probably be simulated divided lights with the bars on the front on both sides with a spacer bar in between Dividers would show up on the outside they would on both outside and inside and the bar between would make it appear that it was straight through The glass even though it wasn't Can you talk about this? Yes, so Yeah on the Looking at the facade study first sketch shows the existing building And the purpose of that compared to the next sketch was to show the change in the windows at second floor But also to look at how we could alter the entrance of the what I'm currently pre-shopped to make it a bit more logical to be a single entity for the For the eye care So the the entrance to shop number one and two would be maintained as an entrance But only have one door rather than two and there's a sketch that'll show that change and then the third entrance Which would be into the what's now the flower shop? that entrance would be closed and I'll show you the sketch for that. So that's the existing entrance to the wool shop and the nail salon and There's an entrance on both sides of that little lobby We would close that one With either a glass to match the shopfront adjacent and then the paneling would be carried through And that's what this sketch shows So the So the door would be replaced by a glass panel here with wooden panel underneath to replicate the pattern Going around the corner the door on the opposite side would would be closed Sorry would be maintained as a door entrance to the eye care shop and Then the third Entrance which is currently at the The florist there's a step up to it because there's a change in level that shop is that six inches higher than the other two So what we would do is to close that door in the same way that we closed the other one With a glass panel and a wood panel underneath and then to level up the steps and create Probably a planter feature there to Give it a bit of logic so that It would make it clear that the entrance is the other side The stairs for the second floor come out just to the left of that entrance, so that's the Third shop entrance and that's the staircase up to the second floor where the apartments Missing a train There are entrances to the second floor on both the front of the building the entrance at the back The that's the entrance to the staircase upstairs at the front and then at the back But it doesn't show it, but it is on exactly inside the courtyard so Sorry, I keep covering the microphone That that door currently goes into the back of the first shop and that would be maintained for going into the back of the The other two doors would be closed and just to the right of that door is a staircase, which then goes upstairs That would be maintained as well. So that's actually on We are forward to that's this that's the existing door upstairs, and it would be maintained The existing is below and that door would be maintained For the windows, yeah, the thought was to use Marvin It could be that depending on what the council thought was best We weren't sure what the owner would like to be is cost-conscious. So I think he'd probably prefer to use the I think it's the Infinity one is the Plastic inside and outside, but I think he'd be open to it's only a few windows So I'm sure he'd be open to there are other windows that for example the ones at the back are already Not all would those some of those are not all would currently The ones on the front portion of the building are You'll be happier with the performance of the wood. Yes. I know They're both all tricks on the outside. Yeah, they've had some issues with the straight all tricks I have those in my house They've had runs that are I'm curious what everybody else I am fairly inclined to appreciate this elevation of a one over one in comparison to the rendering of them whatever it is four over four for those windows up above and keeping a language across all the buildings versus Because I don't feel like you get to see those I guess it makes more sense to me this sketch makes more sense to me Anybody else Yeah The building to the left another Yes, I think I was going to say the photograph doesn't I think Do you see that the two over two I'm going to the one over one Anything else is You have a cut sheet on the doors I Don't have a cut sheet on the doors. Did you mean windows? No, I'm sorry for any of the doors being replaced with newer doors That hasn't been discussed at the moment as far as I'm aware the doors would remain. Okay, just getting rid of Photograph It's more consistent with the building's both sides in terms of compatibility with neighbors And it's built about the same time even though it had a renovation When those are second floor windows that are there probably from the 50s To me not what you're probably right probably fifties or sixties saw a lot of those windows Yeah, I mean, I if you don't know what you're what exactly what's Usually in favor of doing the simplest thing which would be just be one over one To participate for parking The property has 18 spaces at the back and Some of those would be reserved for the flats above but also some would be for the eye care And we don't yet have a division of those spaces if that was something we can ask the owner to to look at that I think possibly both, but I'm not quite sure what its intention is There's no I mean that's one of the things that will be dealing with in the administrative permit, but there's it's in UC one There's no minimum parking requirements Is there going to be a Unification of the awning things or Well, the intention was that we were going to look at that in this at a second round and bring it a second As a separate issue because he wasn't quite sure whether What do you want to do with the awnings and how we want to deal with that this sketch shows a possible way forward? Yeah, and he was Positive about the sketch, but wanted to explore more options. So the idea was to present that again separately Maybe with signage. Yes with signage. So this is sort of structural issues here and then other things separately Yeah, yeah, I think at this point the intention was to do the structural practical and to make everything read more as a unit The other comments questions suggestions Color will be the same. Yes Any other exterior any lighting changes in lighting or? We haven't discussed lots of detail in terms of the lighting. So we could perhaps bring that back and we come back with the Fall on discussion about awnings and so on Okay, I don't know if you had any proposals for is what's the lighting that's Would become your main entrance you have the panels straight ahead. Is there overhead light that shines Chines down or do you mean at the entrance area for the yes the front of the proposed entrance right here? Yes, I actually am not sure what the current lighting situation is there and We haven't discussed a proposal yet for the Okay, no, I didn't know if you wanted if you're planning on coming back anyway, that's fine. Otherwise we could Could put some overhead cans with it down down cast flood. Okay in both locations if we can add that in Again, we don't know what's there. Yes, there's something already there I'm afraid I don't actually know the details of that Okay, I can easily find out and we'll perhaps discuss it when we come back the next time That might be the easiest thing to do I suppose And then any lighting in the back as well, whether it be Entrance lighting over an entrance way Some lighting in the parking area Yes Then any signage you might have yeah for directing patients to parking or I'm not sure what your parking plan is So any additional utility changes and utilities or signage? Missing the signage will be Interior on the glass or will there be anything that's really not a sign band overhead above the awnings There or would there be a sign on that panel next to your entryway? Again, I'm afraid we haven't discussed the sign again to just yeah Throwing out things to include on your next yes visit. Yeah Anything else Otherwise we can go through a set of criteria that we need to go through Evaluation criteria number one preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style if the proposed projects and the historic district are involved in a strict structure acceptable harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable compatibility of the proposed landscaping done proposed Add something with your planter and the next time to you were talking about that okay in the front You can sort of in through all that and at the same time Prevention of the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes are exterior materials acceptable Location and appearance of all utilities no changes proposed in this application Recognition up and respect for view quarters and significant vistas included gave reviews of the city and state house acceptable And then again the option was the replacement windows on the front of the building may be one over one or two over two at your discretion Or historical integrity and again, I'll pull up Okay That's a useful to say Did you want to put anything in there about the wood frame? Those are not you don't really care. I just knew there was no just it was discussed So I didn't know that was something that you guys had and again replacement windows And again the replacement windows you can again you can use either the just straight integrity or the wood frame integrity Okay, and I'll improve the application For when he comes back does he come back to us or to the board? Yes, he would come back with the additional Any changes in lighting Yeah, that'll be a separate a separate administrative permit that comes here for your review and goes back to our office to Have the actual permit issued And I'll get you to I'll get you to sign your name there and then maybe just above it credit Thank you very much You're in Black River design offices upstairs The next application is for 25 East State Street Hi Paul Introduce yourself Paul Somerset on 25 East State Street and three miles Good and Describe your project the project is the repainting of 25 East State Street. I was not I would apologize that I did not Know that I had Situations was that I tried to get it painted last summer and I tried to get it painted this summer Talked to six people on the phone and nobody had even come by to Get a bit and it just kept going and going going and I couldn't find Peter and then all of a sudden somebody came by The proposed Colors were Going to be all I really wanted to do was raise the tone up one notch. I had this Existing kind of gray green on there. I have a couple of the old pictures Of the building behind the one that's all wood and then what we went to Nature green This is the word Yes, and that is what it is. Is that what it is? This is this is the 2012 this is a 2012 screen capture This is the old look. That's the old color. Okay, and then the was it the 158c3 the nurture nurture green that you went to yeah, so that's that our printout is not as good That's the picture of what it is now So this is from our color copier, which doesn't show quite as well as that you're doing the same pattern Yeah, we would change the red trim to a dark blue and but the cream remained the same so it That's what it is now. It's a three color paint job. It's You know, it's exactly what I had on there before I did change the red trim to a blue, but all the Blues where all the red was and all the cream is where all the cream was and the green base color I Would say went up one tone level well, thank you for keeping the architectural details Painted similarly as a matter of fact. I'm turning one of the little corbels came off I'm in the back and I'm hand turning another one over I do like the historical building that's why I bought it and I really tried very hard both inside and out to maintain Oh We really try I mean if you guys have been in the barbershop, you know that it's gone back to the original You know the original lath and plaster in the tin ceiling and it's it really represents kind of the era of what it was We saved the building originally. I mean the whole foundation was crumbling in the back corner We spent a lot of time and money putting that back in and trying the basement out and really kind of saving the overall water Soggy mess of the building. I really am I don't I do apologize. I didn't you know, I talked to all my neighbors So but the process goes like it always goes I Put the patches of the paint up on the side of the building. They were there for several weeks I talked to customers. I talked to friends. I talked to neighbors Actually the only people who really live within that core or dot whose house is fairly You know So I own the business in the building too, I don't really have any What ended up going in the back of the first floor where the bar was it's main it I Am heading towards what I would like to call semi-retirement and I just decided not to open up another business So it's remaining a it is remaining a small apartment, which is still not It's unchanged, okay, and it's it's we finished the insulation in project and all of my tools are still in there I gotta put in a hardwood floor I Everybody was Questions comments suggestions from anyone Okay Okay, and I just for clarification, so that 27 a state street isn't in the new downtown core and 25 well the design review of relay district And it wasn't that the district boundaries didn't change in 2018. Okay, but yeah, 25 is in You're just you happen to own two properties right next to each other on either side of the line All right Yeah, we got to go through the whole thing and again, I'll just read the criteria Which is the same as you heard for the last project preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in a historic district involves an historic structure We call it preservation acceptable harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable Compatibility of proposed exterior materials acceptable compatibility of proposed landscaping non proposed in this application Prevention of use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials acceptable location of parents of all utilities no change recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gave me views of the city and state house acceptable All in favor of the application Again, I'll have you sign this Okay, thank you Thank you very much we actually have enough people here to take care of all the minutes So in deal with our rules of procedure after we can bump those if we need to Okay So we have to number nine review of the new design review regulations Anybody interested come forward and sit at the table. Sorry. You don't have to use grab more chairs bring them up Sorry, I couldn't I wasn't sure how many of you are going to show and must feel like deja vu Any of you need clean copies And do you fancy want to introduce yourselves I'm Lily for your general opportunity Elizabeth people Okay Okay, I'll try to you to give it a shot So we have been working on a revision to the design Policy and procedures focusing first on the ordinance in response to Some feedback that came out of the proposed Changes back when the I was a year or two ago started in 2016 So this is part of a number of goals that the HP Commission identified the first being to Work on the process to make it a bit more Well, yeah transparent I'm Blanking on the word But he's here to to provide some measures for more administrative Opportunities so that for example perhaps the last project which was paint Could be handled administratively rather than having to go through the full process and To provide I think also with some feedback. We have some other goals, but we thought it was important first to tighten up the process and Make it a little bit more predictable and Have some of these options that wouldn't require everything to go through a full On-the-view process where appropriate? I think this is in response to a couple of things one was The public outcry, which I will not characterize Conjections to design review that kind of stimulated a lot of interest in doing something with design review Yeah then the the Planning Commission did some changes to the design review stuff that didn't meet the secretary of interior standards and somehow the historic preservation Commission got charged with making the rules and we've really worked hard at it and I Think it I think it's a good set of rules at this point I mean, I think it's not complete and the planning Commission has to approve it We want you guys to be fully on board with it And certainly welcome any suggestion for sure changes that would make things clearer in the east here for design review and in the end the city council has to approve it, so We've slogged for a while now. We've got a few more steps and I Planned to have a meeting with What's your name and share the planning Commission? Leslie wealthy And talk about that after this meeting. I couldn't meet with her over the holidays And then we'll probably go to the planning Commission At that point and have a similar meeting to this one So we're a long ways and this is really a draft To give people Comment and there's a couple of things that we've done that I think are Married with health as a city attorney Whole issue that I got so upset about that the major buildings in town were not covered by design review according to an opinion that Went all Smith Scott and now I think Mary's done a great job Writing that in so those projects do come to design review for a look at The things that we can review Some things we can't do so I think that's a that's kind of a major Change in Process and then our recommendations go on to the development so And I think another thing just To point out is that as I said this is part of a first step and I think the next step that we've identified is updating Information on the design guidelines and so essentially be updating cityscape In many ways to provide Additional guidance to folks on how to navigate through the process and what type of things they would anticipate For example talking to you folks and then as well at the development so This is really the first step though is getting Policy in a good place that everyone can feel comfortable with and then we can start talking about how that Kind of getting to the issue of parody that folks have been complaining about that some folks are in the district and not under design review Some folks are not in the district the historic district Haven't done yet, and I think we all agreed that getting the rules Established or at least reasonably sad before we set the boundaries for the district so Yeah, we had a number of discussions about how it would be difficult for Residents and property owners to comment on Updating the boundary without knowing what would be in the new language of design review And just I had discussion just today with Mike Miller when you're looking at this the parts about Viewsheds is Pretty general. There's there's not a lot in there and so one thought on that and sort of goes along with the Designing the new district is that here you're on the viewsheds issue You're gonna want to sort of make baby steps and just pick a couple of very specific viewsheds like oh The dome you don't want to impinge on views of the dome Later after doing may be a really detailed viewshed analysis that could then be elaborated on But it's the same with the current overlay district right now trying to mess with that doesn't really make sense Because you need to get a lot more data on that burst to then be able to try and back up those kind of changes that people are gonna have issues with but getting Getting the process really laid out and some of the other more detailed standards that HBC is really hard on them here making sure we're all on board with those and making them workable The and is right over the horizon So since you all are the ones that implement this You know what were some of your thoughts? I Don't know how you want to proceed With this I mean we could kind of go through a section by section quickly not every word because Well that and I've got a I've got like an every word workability analysis from Mike over two and a half hours this afternoon so If you just have some sections where you go, I don't know if this really works to administer I'll let you know But knowing what you're Knowing what you're what your Thoughts are on it. Yeah, and you know sections that you think don't make sense Would be helpful for everybody anything or things you really like you could send your address by email So yeah, we was there anything that jumped out though as far as It didn't seem drastically different in terms of administration Like the committee is Exactly checklist is probably going to be longer. Yeah, there was like new design standards But other but administratively it didn't see And things like paint colors would be approved by the Just administratively there they wouldn't come at all. They wouldn't come at all. Okay. Well, and then there's some things like if somebody Came to you previously for a whole project and then they you know Change there's a couple things in here where they come back for some really inky dinky change. I Might be able to prove that. Yes without the whole thing having to come back Which makes a lot there were it's very specific Items in there so looking over those to make sure they aren't they aren't something that you want to have come back to you In one of our public outreach meetings, we got some very positive feedback about having a laid-out list about activities that are considered exempt So to understand that you know certain things you don't have to bring it forward you can look at the The rules and read through it and understand it and know where the priorities are in terms of front and rear in extent of changes One question that some some people who come when them and obviously some of the rules are changing If it'll be a little more relaxed, but there's some people who come And Got some advice. I mean we have to build builders architects on the board Some people have seen that as a fairly valuable resource and a couple of people in particular Have saved thousands of dollars on their project And ended up with a better plan that the suggestion of a couple of architects and people on the board in the past And they've been very happy with it. And in that sense Hopefully we are seen as a resource and I would wouldn't mind if there was a way that if somebody wanted to come Either for administrative approval on something or if they wanted some input from people on the committee Yeah, there's a way to I'm not sure if they've been waiting a fee or making it easier just to come to get some input from people here I mean with it with Eric's expertise on historic preservation Architects and people there's a lot of resources here on In section 2201 point g on page three The first paragraph it does call out specifically applicants are encouraged to consult with the designer these committees or for technical assistance with implementing repair and maintenance practices And so they could still request to come for you even if they're not required to Okay, and what we could I mean we could I could talk to audra. We have to we would have to probably Have something in the fee schedule that specifically says we can bring it here without a fee Changing the fee schedule Yeah, trying to figure out a way to make that work. Yeah and to make that easier for them I think that's something I noticed when I re-read it That that wasn't specifically in there and I know there's a lot of people john anderson was very enthusiastic about that Kim cheney was and I think a lot of people are that Are applicants yeah having somehow making sure that it's clear that there's a fee waiver for the informal review Especially if it's something where I'm not going through my whole regular process and we just put together what they have and come here I think our first application tonight could have been an informal review because they really didn't have All the information But that could have been an informal review and I think the informal review is Make sure there's nothing no big deal here. Yeah, except that they wanted to make those changes Yeah, so for us to issue the permit so that they can make those changes and do the change of use We kind of need your input on the structural changes And they'll probably need a lot of the information Come to send it in order to get bits for The only actual work on the projects, but yes the informal review where it Does I think so again just a mechanism for doing that and maybe Are reduced or no fee to make to encourage people to do that if they want some Want some help with the project are we thinking of expanding or contracting the boundaries of which we Expanding or I think there's still Conversation around that We know that there are varying opinions on On that on the status of that And right now as I was saying earlier, there are properties that are within the national registered district that are not subject to design review And They're outside of the design the boundaries designer people really district the district It's previous the other But Sorry to interrupt you there's um There are also other areas that Could be future historic districts Our our district is the largest contiguous district in the state So while the national the national historic districts, right versus so we have 660 660 resources now Burlington has far more But they're split up into smaller More discreet districts. So there's like eight or nine districts within both the state and the fed said we can't expand this district anymore Yes, the historic district, but we can continue to survey and create other districts as appropriate Or you know, we've even talked through this conversation. Is it appropriate to have the downtown Be one discreet district and then have some of the more residential neighborhoods you know, so there's There's a discussion to have and I think we're interested in the feedback on that but The hope would be that if this becomes a logical predictable clear process that Increasing that Overlay would not be as intimidating as it perhaps was a few years ago I think one of the other things man that we talked about is that There's the grant program and certified local grant program and that's how we funded Part of this But to actually make a plan of adding districts in some of the obvious ones are the meadow You know college street and then there's all kinds of other additional districts that we could We could do but to actually hire an architectural historian to go through and say Okay, this is and Do a rough outline in the district And drawing boundaries. I mean we had one person who Wanted their building in the district, but it wasn't because it's really hard to tell like Barbers that was in here. Yeah, you know There's nothing different between those two buildings other than an imaginary line that goes right and and that's going to be Bacut until you get the whole thing There's just there's no definable clear boundaries I think that there could be definable clear boundaries And one of the things that we've talked about is for that design review overlay district One option would be to follow some of the new Neighborhood lines. Yeah, never a part of the zoning update so that In terms of city administration and understanding of the neighborhoods could be linked to that But we'd need to do there would need to be a survey to see if that actually even makes sense And it wouldn't necessarily have to be an addition to the national register It could be the state register Or some other or it could be a local designation And other than cliff street what sort of feedback are you getting from the community as far as wanting and not wanting? We had a public meeting that we got I think we got a lot of positive feedback from people I I I've heard both I've heard folks It's cliff street You know having not having an interest in that designation and as eric said some other folks who wish that the boundaries went another block Over so that they could be included And I think one of the parts one of the things to our one of our goals. I think is to Help remove some of the misperceptions about What what does this status mean and how does it affect people's property commercial versus private and those sort of things So this again, it's I think it's part of a what's going to be a long campaign for advocacy and education So much depends on the individual the individual owner of a property Sometimes they are happy to be in it just so they can use the committee as a resource to do their own project Sometimes they're just just happy because it helps the neighbor one person Talked well, what are we doing wrong with our house? I mean they did they did a nice job of painting They did nice stuff You know, are you telling me we're doing something wrong because we didn't go to designer Not at all a lot of people are doing really nice things with houses In one pillar, but you don't want that person Moving in next door and that's the and I'll guarantee that no matter what Is done in either terms of district boundaries or listings on the national register Somebody's going to find problems with There's going to be a certain contingency that just doesn't want to be regulated Period and they think the feds are going to take their building if it goes on the national register There's all kinds of misperceptions out there I think um one of the the things that I heard was people being unsure Of what might happen with the update of will it will it cost me more money? That's always a question But you know once we kind of talk through some of the issues they're like that's you know, that seems reasonable Um because we also heard a lot of people talking about concerned about what their neighbors might do So there's there's interest in I think in More design review as long as it's predictable and understandable And not financially burdensome in I don't think that there many people have problems with design review in the downtown area When you get out in the neighborhoods cliff street being the obvious one And the people are don't like it You know for I think most often based on misinformation but uh But interestingly some of those are actually some of the more visible properties because of their proximity up the hill So there's a balance. There's a balance to To that and I think one of the goals though would be that folks feel that There's a sense of parity in what's happening with that and I don't think that exists currently, but um, It's a multi-step process. You don't think parity exists or you don't think people understand We've discussed everything including the boundaries be the city Uh You know that parity it's fair that was an outside suggestion Yeah, well, I think it's just one of the it's going to be tough Selecting the boundaries the easiest course is to make them concur with the national register But that's the easiest That's also if you're concerned mostly with historic versus historic and design From sort of an administrative standpoint the boundaries are Drawn the buildings are described in there. So that you know, there's a real basis for for doing that and I mean almost everything I think designer view does with the exception of new hotels and parking garages is unhistoric buildings and transit centers and Um What was going to be where m&m is and I mean, I feel like there's a lot of buildings that are not necessarily historically I think that that's actually really important for me. That's more important than the historic stuff. Like I feel like taking a look at our infill development and making sure that the buildings are are interesting and well-crafted and well and beautiful and Sort of thought about that is more important than me We talk at the beginning of this process The state has established two different types of design review districts One is what we had been which is a traditional design review overlay district Which is looking at everything from historic to new and growth and expansion and all of that But they also have the option of doing a historic review district, which is very much more focused on kind of keeping that historic district intact as is um And we decide that we wanted to stick with what the city has traditionally had which is the design review which does Consider a new development and how does it fit in and how does it allow for some change in growth while still preserving that character of the community So hopefully this does that But there were also a commission of historic people So if you guys have thoughts about the new infill stuff that we wrote If if any of you want to go to another meeting this week Tomorrow night at grace church at seven o'clock. There's going to be a discussion of sort of the development potentials on on state street that includes moving the thrush building Forward it includes work on grace church There'll be some discussion about the wayfinding and the city has a streetscape a grant to do a streetscape planning Which you know those things those kind of street furniture or street design is really important in terms of the district So That's the christ church in the sanctuary And it's a meeting is organized david sheets Was key to people from christ church probably I participated but I wish they'd done the whole downtown Just state street. There's a lot going on on state street in the issue of the hotel and all of that and what's going to happen with the where The gas station was I think there's a lot of buildings infill development that happens Especially recently well That was a lot of the changes to the 2018 regulations were to allow that that's you're going to see be be seeing more of that especially based on the subdivision permits I've been getting But it would really be nice if they could find a way to move the first building back up on the street where it used to be and then do Whatever they do behind is less sensitive to the to the streetscape What's all so When you guys looked through these did were there any sections that kind of caught your eye of Not sure how that's going to work or Any any concerns that should be addressed before it goes before And if you really didn't have a chance to look through it, you can also send me comments Mike have concerns with the workability Thing this afternoon Or is that like I said I met with him two and a half for two and a half hours I have a lot of it a lot of it was Just moving stuff around So that we could administer it better and so that we can create Recommendation forms that make more sense and right because we'll have to if it's that this much longer There may have to be actual written decisions that like for our administrative decisions that have more detail on the designer view section so There weren't too many Oh, this isn't going to work things most of it was just We organizing a bit so that we could administer it better So a lot of those changes Send to you guys to look at and then some of them are discussion points Well, we can have another meeting joint meeting if one Meredith sends that out if if people want but it can also be a Comments thing however you want to do it And it would be nice to be able to incorporate Comments and changes that people have while I'm making a doing the revision And be able to pull it all together one time Since the design review which Going to be the one that deals with this preservation commission done with it. Are there particular sections that You want us to look at So Exempty yeah, probably so the subsection h. Yeah exempt development The Sex subsection k administrative review things that I can approve without it even coming to design review Yep, those are two big ones exempt is on page three subsection h and then Yep page five subsection k administrative review. It's so nice to have subsections now We're like subsection x for a few years. Um The the other thing and I think it's we've got a section in the end no definitions Good to look on that Any additions we have we we sort of didn't didn't try to define everything in added dictionary. We just defined The words were particularly related to the review process And then just be aware that there there are specific design standards That apply to alterations in additions to current buildings Versus standards for new construction. So this is the starting halfway down page seven versus halfway down page nine It's different So that would be like two different recommendations If you get one kind of recommendation form if you're dealing with an addition or Change and then one type of recommendation form for new buildings Sarah McShane She did a lot of this before I came on she She'd been working with us before Meredith came on I think there's probably the biggies for There's sort of the big picture changes Many of these things are already addressed but only in a more generic and a general way In other words in the existing criteria they talk about compatibility With adjacent properties and other properties of the district that pretty broad that encompasses a lot of these things that like Materials worship things architectural features So again, it's not it's nice to be familiar with the details So that you can address those in terms of compatibility Some of that laying it all out is for that whole transparency So when people are claiming their application they can look at it and go What are we really what are they actually looking at and be able to figure it out? So they and also that way they go. Oh wait I do have to apply I do have to go to design review for this issue because it's in there. We also I think looked at it with the idea of Defending decisions in court You know because there haven't been very many that Well, I'm not on cliff street That would have been before me. Yeah You're looking at Vinyl siding and windows change. I can't remember The guy's name. I see her on taller as well, but Just to kind of so that our our decisions are defensible And to give you guys some Words to to back up anybody that might challenge What you are already practicing But just so that it's spelled out And this is I should know the answer to this question Specific to Montpelier more than it is like A general document for We used a number of other municipalities For reference We did like don't like as we went through different cities regulations I think a big part of this is the kind of guidance piece of it This is the regulatory part sort of the other foot is the guidance piece and and uh Shelvern has a very detailed guidance piece So That's our next project. Maybe I'll retire before that You could be an honorary member at the very least Please the other the other thing that's kind of happening that I think is really good Is the Montpelier heritage group is sort of reforming I was going to try to get that to happen, but It's happening without me which is fantastic so the the national park services guidance about Designers you in historic districts is that you start with the kind of basics of what are the secretary of interstate and for rehabilitation But then you really need to expand and customize it for The specifics of your local community Because neighborhoods and development patterns Change what what are your priorities? And so I think that's a little bit of what we tried to do Yeah, this is really based on the secretary of interior standards For rehabilitation So and so with the last Groups that we're doing now So, you know that I don't think there's going to be a great difference in the decisions that come up when people come into open Fill out their applications. They don't see you. They see audra more often um if it is Yeah for for administrative permits Yeah, if it's not something that's going to the drb as well, then usually they see audra You know it it depends Generally it's audra that it has to tell somebody that they need to this will have to go to design review I guess is what I'm getting at I wouldn't say that Okay, um generally it's audra who would look at their application and say If it's an administrative application and say you've got everything in here you need to have So what's I guess my question is the perception of the public when they're when they're told that they need to go to design review Is that generally something that they're like? Oh god It depends on so some people are just like Especially if it's something that they have to go to design review and they have to go to drb Then they get annoyed because it's You know extra hearings That hopefully we've spaced out so that means two weeks in between the two unless we're really trying to squish it But for your standard person who just all they have to do is come here and then it's an administrative permit It's usually not that big of a deal But they don't necessarily know everything that they have to give us and Especially with my learning curve I don't always know all the questions to ask as I've been working on these It's helped and as I've been sitting in these meetings, but in the very beginning just as a person who is just coming in I was in the same boat that the applicants were in and trying to figure out All the things I had to find out that they needed to to provide So I can sort of see how Somebody would be surprised at all the information that they need You know if it's somebody who does not have An architect with them or a general contractor doing it I mean I guess No, I was okay. I mean we'll still need to explain it to them but to be able to have something other than just That like you know one and a half pages of design review standards to show them in some ways is better Because we can point them to specific sections and give it to them that lays out what design review is really going to be looking at Yeah, I mean I guess Or are you talking about changing I'm not talking about any of those things specifically more. I just feel like I do think that this is a valuable resource for Oh, yeah, the city and community and I do think that there is some like educational Very quick educational things that could happen in your office as to like why we exist in all the handling And we do and we try and tell and people who do start to complain. It's a sort of a selling point of Look, you're going to go there and you're going to get a panel of people who Who do development who understand buildings who are going to be able to give you advice? Well, and I also think like there's plenty of like photographs of our I mean the cool jewels building of like what it used to look like versus what it looks like now because somebody actually Took the time to rip all over the terrible siding off and sort of like You're part of this larger fabric of like trying to create a community that has you know values in its buildings and whether there's any part of this that is front and front end educational Person coming get me some more time to be able to put up displays in the office Yeah, oh no, it's in that's trying to we've talked about that in historic preservation committee meetings about trying to Do that outreach And I think that the next step with Coming up with some more design guideline material Help, you know, how do how do these flesh out? That there's a huge educational component to that because You know my recollection sitting around this table as a DRC member many years ago. That was you know, that's exactly it The the the process was not clear for some people And therefore they would show up without everything needed and up now I got to come back What in two weeks and then that means I can't make the next ERB meeting Which means now all of a sudden I'm six weeks out and I could be done today if I had just known that And so that's part of I think again the the education and advocacy that can help Frontload all of this so that it's not so intimidating and it's it's it's again. We keep using those the words predictable and Clear and some of the material we will produce later. I think it's A lot of people get it they they see their project in this very narrow scope It's sort of like about them, but don't realize that You know building's been around for a long time. It's going to be around for a lot longer after they're gone and I sort of See how it fits into the But I think most people come to it just like oh god. This is so Hopefully when you read the little Intro section of this regulations. We tried to put a lot of the not visuals, but the Kind of the concept and the reason why You know why is the city important and why is design review important? And it's clearly I think I don't appreciate it. Yeah, you can't put those in the regulations but I mean we already have a few Design guidelines that are available on I think they're on your website, right? You know about dealing with you know, how what's the way to approach windows? What's the way to approach other elements roofing? porches and those can be enhanced and those I think can be you know That can all be expanded to include Stuff that's discussed here. So kind of how the rubber hits the load hammered Read this purposes and declaration because that really firmly establishes this as policy of the city But at the city council we put words there honestly we So it's important to us because that really establishes the framework that makes a lot of the other stuff defensive One quick question when people are buying properties in town The realtors tell them that they're on the national register or they're on a design review Districts so that if you're you know, you're buying a house and you're going to fix it all up That you need to get You know approvals for certain things. I've I've had realtors ask me Um, how that all gets transferred through. I'm not really sure It's really worth the salt should be doing their due diligence to So any requirements that you know, but that all that all comes and we get those questions I believe it would require I know other states have See laws will be realtors that say they have to disclose things like design review over late districts But I don't believe Vermont has that Yeah, and that's that's something I don't think we could do anything about And We can encourage and promote The benefits of that that's I think they haven't divulge everything else whether you know, you've got a septic or sewer system or what you've got Asbestos or I mean, there's I think that's ready to writing the letter to your legislator here Because I don't know that Montpelier has the authority to do it just local or like that Over realtors. No, I don't think Montpelier has any local realtor ordinance. That's all state level If there's there a brochure or something that's created it could be distributed to realtors to you know To hand to a client who's purchasing something that We could do that I think it might Come after we doing the application forms But I will put that on the list because I think that's a great idea just an informational to yeah Well, and not even just to realtors. That's just anybody coming in What we can maybe do when this Gets further along or gets adopted probably it's just the city could send a letter to all the realtors that In town Saying here, you know, there there is new design review district Here's the information about it. Here's where you can get more Yeah, but also just a general designer you overlay district handout that could be sent both realtors and to give to people who are interested, you know and Anybody who has property in that district But realtors can be very useful Bunch of years ago, there's you know some contact in a presentation and one of the realtors meetings about historic preservation I didn't do it Some realtors actually see you know an historic building as a benefit because there's a lot of character and they People who appreciate that are Frequently willing to pay more for it, which obviously the realtor is very interested in So if the you know the building has historic character and has a lot of unique features to it It can be an asset in a sale and maybe they would describe it as something other than colonial changing They have at least a seven percent interest in it Six Any other suggestions or clarifications that I think it would be great before this goes before the planning commission And I don't know if this is possible at the time because I don't know what the timing is If after you all have a chance to look at it You could maybe if you feel comfortable jointly supported with the hpc As before it goes to the planning commission because I think one of their first feedback is going to be How does the design review committee feel about this? Well, basically a lot of the proposed changes lightens the load for the committee A lot of the things that can be administratively improved. I mean the paint job that we just reviewed according to this Could have been administratively improved. Is there anything in here about Something like that situation though where somebody has already done something and coming back After the fact I I think that's just dealt with I mean under the big pictures any regulations You if it's if it's if they were supposed to get a permit for it they didn't Then it's an enforcement issue where I go and that's what happened here Is I go to them and say you need a permit for this and they come and really You guys have the authority to say no, we don't approve of it and he has to repaint his house And it's just that's if it's retroactive it's retroactive, which means you're reviewing it as if it hasn't actually been done That's nasty. We don't want people to do that Well, which is also why we want them to come in and get a permit before they do the work We're also just advisory. Yeah, but but wait your advisor, but but it comes through Well, right, but if it was something where You really say we don't We don't approve of whatever it was The zoning administrator can't tell them they have to take the work out I think to Hannah's point though and something that we experienced in the past is like hopefully this provides Decisions that are more defensible. Yeah, because it's There's there's more content here. There's just more clarity in what it is What needs to happen and how it's evaluated? And I don't know that that was always the case in the past And so I remember a couple of decisions the drc made that the design review Uh, the development review board Didn't take the drc's guidance on it and still, you know, made a decision on a project independent of the guidance of this body, so You know that This hopefully will Not prevent that because that's always an option But we'll at least support and strengthen the the normal process as in his phone. Yes, because we're advisory But if there's more detail to the advice given maybe The decision becomes less subjective and if it becomes something that's faced more and I think there's That there's a provision in here for consulting the preservation commission If there's an issue about historic whether whether something is is a character defining feature Comes back and the drb can come to the to the preservation commission to make those Decisions, which is the way it should be Did I get in there or was that just a special piece? I think I got in here one of those hpc making a judgment call on something Mike said you can't do under state statute. So there's one of them. I had to I'll let you guys there's one Yeah, we'll talk about it. So as On the administrative side versus might be in staff for the hpc. There's a little bit of conflict So just giving you heads up the planning commission behind it was so that if you were all to make a recommendation to the drb That something shouldn't be done in a certain way If you're giving that to the property owner and they go to the drb and say no, that's not historic That's not a character defining feature the drb could then theoretically if this stays in Go to the preservation commission and say You know from the preservation commission's standpoint is this something that contributes to the historic character of the building in the district To help clarify the issue that one stayed in I think it was the definition of historic Building or something where it was the or as Designated by the hpc and Mike said that wouldn't work Okay, so that's No, we just marked it Well, we might as well push it. That's what I I mean It's actually allows for local designation Yep The historic building definition the any build so this is on page 13 definition number 12 Any building listed determined eligible for the state register or national register of historic places? That's where Mike said to put a period Because he said that The or deemed locally significant by the hpc through testimony in a drc or drb hearing He said that The planning commission will immediately delete that because applicants need to have a reasonable certainty of what it is that they need to meet That that applicants not knowing ahead of time whether or not it's a historic building Is is not correct, okay, and what we had talked about is that Again with not everything being surveyed to that level But the historic preservation commission is responsible for that survey and therefore Yeah, I think you're going to need to somehow define this better And be able to sell it to the planning commission just letting you know that he was just like Big red flag or Mike Locally significant that might need to be struck I would be wired that is deemed eligible for the national state register Yeah, but it would but I would say it would need to be I don't know if that would need to be something that was done before the applicant actually applied Versus during the application process and I think just One of the intents of that is to not Have to encumber the applicant to go out and hire a professional consultant to evaluate it because That that's that the the district was established through qualified professionals research and recommendations and so That's sort of how we had envisioned I think the preservation commission could just offer that offer that service to the public But yeah, we can we can look at buildings look at pictures We could have we don't want it to be seen as an overreach That's anyway, I'm just I'm giving you a preview of where planning He thinks planning commission is going to go on that one because he was but if you don't overreach jamie Nobody is going to give you something you don't Yeah, I guess that would be my other question for the drc is Through your experiences with applications Have there been situations where you just felt like I really wish The regulation covered this I wish that there was a mechanism a standard guidance Because you're the you're the one seeing what's kind of coming through Like with some of these bigger development projects. Did you wish you had some other Tool or guidance or did you feel like what you had? You know set the right direction you got the information you needed That's a great question And I don't know that this is an opportunity to put Suggestions in that if you feel like there's been a gap Yeah, that'd be great Be nice Be hard to be specific on some of the criteria Again, the criteria is pretty broad now and some of it's Much of it's objective some of it's subjective to try to more closely define it I don't know if you're going to cover all the situations, but There and and or if there are application requirements for Something I I don't know. Well, I guess what I would also say from my experience coming on the board and then you know There was no training. I just sort of showed up and here I am Sure, I got an opinion. You want to hear it? So as far as I don't feel like there has been any sort of One of the Maybe we have a thing in here that says, you know And I don't know if this is the right spot or not Because I believe that the HPC is supposed to provide some training and guidance to the DRC I think Sarah said that at one point and I don't know if we put that in here somewhere It would be I think it would be more just HPC Working with the department of planning. I mean that's when Martha came on. I did my best to put together a Package of stuff, but it doesn't help that I haven't been here that long either The the other thing we discussed was uh, I didn't we didn't figure out a system for that but having somebody from the HPC beyond The designer of you. I mean I I've done both for years and But uh, you're in Yeah, but Yeah, and so that would be DRC Rules of procedure and that's that's a different set of rules that's not these that's rules of procedure as well as Getting city council that for requirements for DRC members But that doesn't really deal with the training. I think the training is more of a planning department policy issue And that's like right now like we had a whole huge switch over on development review board And we're now that things are slowing down. We're actually planning some training for them The historic preservation commission because we're a certified local government Has certain requirements for the people that have to be on the commission And Architect architectural historian, but that's not true for they can put anybody they want to on DRC I think there's some general standards, but Pretty much so more training for DRC Yeah, yeah, it would have been helpful Yeah Awesome Yeah, send me any comments suggestions Um, and that is the other thing to remember just for like the DRC training issue Ask me stuff and I can try and find a way to make it happen Okay, I'll ask a question. What happened on clip screen? No idea what you're talking about Is that a conversation for a different situation? No, it was just an issue where somebody Had problems with peeling paint on a building and they decided after talking to the 10 men that the solution was to put Rigid insulation with vinyl siding over to hide the To deteriorating climber it's underneath and Decision was made. I mean I was the chairman of the time decision was made that Uh, it probably should take that all often deal with it in a better In a better way And personally I would wouldn't have bothered with the siding to begin with because they're just basically hiding deteriorating materials Which are you're going to continue to deteriorate? But somebody took a bridge with the The brain the decision was made and He didn't want to spend the money. He already had an outlining. He's already have done it. Yeah, it was already mostly done Yeah People from cliff street got organized and just did not want to designer you because of some decisions That would have been made there in the past I guess it's that cliff street is out now as a Decider of view I can't even remember to be honest. It's not like it's done through a checked all of them Hold out, but not legally back in again It could be challenged either way very easily. Okay. Yes. I wasn't here for that. So Oh They reversed the decision That one to environmental Decision was sort of like cutting the baby in half that Weird decision anyway, okay Well, thank you for your attention and consideration of all this and I really would value your feedback Thank you for the rest of your coming. Thank you for the work all of you have done Putting that together it was really a good committee and exercise Have a good night. Good night guys. Thank you for coming. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So do you want to do Minute approvals and yes, we can put through those pretty quickly the first Set of minutes is for October the 15th and we have Eric Seth and Ben here Second We've seen them a few times. I think you haven't been here all in favor of approving the 15th Okay, okay, the next set of minutes is for October the 40th This was the parking garage. That was the beginning. We reviewed these ones But it was the wrong draft that you reviewed. Yes, so I made all the changes that needed to happen So you're reviewing them again Anybody have any other questions comments suggestions regarding those minutes? And then again, it was myself Eric moved you moved to approve. Yes, I hear a second for this one All in favor of approving the 30 And then we're out to December the reaction I wasn't there Stephen of Seth's and Martha This is a new sign You'll hear a motion to approve that one And all in favor of that December that one is approved Awesome Okay, got those done and then if you want to there's some minor changes to the DRC rules of procedure that needed to happen. Um, so You can it's changes on page Two and four really minor stuff about when the meetings are held. Okay So if you want to do that now you can You'll hear a second for those changes all in favor of the changes for the rules of procedure make sure him We've been operating this way, right? Yep. Yes, the rules of procedure just never changed It was just I was going through all the rules of procedure and when we nobody actually approved these Yes It's not changing what you're doing is just making sure the rules of procedure actually meet match with what you do Do I hear a motion to adjourn you do All in favor of adjourn memories you have meeting is adjourned Thank you