 This afternoon's speaker is Jeffrey Rutledge. Jeffrey Rutledge is the Director of the Cabinet Office in the Chief Minister's Department. So I'll hand you over to Jeffrey. And thanks everyone who stayed after lunch. The reason I got the after lunch gig was Cabinet, normally meets on a Tuesday morning. So I was gonna be stuck in Cabinet until about now. And so Robert kindly put me on after lunch, but then people may have heard in the news, Treasurer Barr lost his media advisor Kurt Steele in a tragic accident in Bolivia. So the government's taking that quite hard. So we've cancelled, we cancelled Cabinet today and we put that off to next week, but it's, he was certainly well loved by those in the office. I'm really just filtering for time until my presentation comes up. So I'm Jeffrey Rutledge. Yes, I am working as the Cabinet Director. So I thought today I'd talk a little bit about the role of the Chief Minister and Treasury Directorate and then sort of what is Cabinet and how Cabinet works in the ACT. Also how we put together the budget, the annual budget and finish up with sort of how you might get involved. So my comments today really are my experience of the Stanhope and Gulliver governments. I was just thinking, I moved to Canberra in 2001 so I don't actually know what life was like before the Stanhope and Gulliver governments. So it's a whole generation who have lived in this paradise. So I'll comment on that. I did work, I should say I did previously work in the Senate and previously also worked in New South Wales Parliament and the politics played at New South Wales Parliament is far different to the lovely game we play in the Legislative Assembly. So we're a central agency, Chief Minister and Treasury Directorate. So we support the Chief Minister as both the head of government and as the chair of Cabinet. The Treasurer as her deputy and the Director-General of the Chief Minister and Treasury Directorate is also the head of the service. So what we try to do is we don't actually do anything, we try and drive the strategic priorities of the government. So at the moment you can see that our strategic priorities are to create opportunity and a more liveable city, supporting a stronger and more diverse economy, being a healthier and smarter community and we're also focusing on urban renewal as our city grows. Our government, where it gets its ideas from, truly come from what's up here, election commitments. As we're in a minority government both this time and last term, there was a parliamentary agreement signed between the head of the Labor Party and the head of the Green Party and that outlined a number of commitments. Those annual strategic priorities, which I've outlined and also what's going on at the COEG reform agenda. So under the, I suppose, during the Rudd-Gillard government we were busily reforming human services with the bringing in of the NDIS or changes to health funding or schools funding. COEGs meeting again in October and I think now we're just countering terrorism. I don't think we're doing any social reforms in COEG at the moment. But those election commitments absolutely do drive the government agenda. So only after one year in office, the Chief Minister proudly pointed out that she had funded at least or started funding at least 70% of the election commitments. After two years in office, the government said that through the parliamentary agreement about 85% of their commitments were being met or being underway. So I suppose what I'm saying here is that engaging in the government and engaging with the government really starts pre-election because what is announced at election, those election commitments are religiously followed and they are really are the driving force for the full four year term. Outside of that, there are opportunities to influence government, but I would say looking at election commitments and looking at the parliamentary agreement will give you a good understanding of where the government is going to head for four years. So with two years to go, before we get a new government, now's the time to be thinking about the next term as well as the end of this term. If we look at what cabinet is, cabinet is the executive of the ACT government. So for us, that's a very small cabinet, only recently got bigger. So we've got Chief Minister Galaher, who chairs the cabinet and her colleagues, Ministers Barr, Corbell, Birch, Rattenbury and most recently, Mick Gentleman. I've been away from the cabinet office for some time and I worked out that the last time I sat in cabinet was in 2010 when Chief Minister Stanhope was the Chief Minister. So as I was walking over to the cabinet room, I said to the head of the service, I said, has my seat changed? And she said, no, your seat hasn't changed. So not much changes. And when Minister Gentleman came in, we gave him a small map of the table and we put his head where he needed to sit and he'll sit there until we change the cabinet again. So we have some committees of cabinet, we talk about the budget and I'll take you through the budget cycle, but we never stopped talking about the budget as a government, expenditure review. So that's really what unkind people call the razor gang, but what we consider looking for efficiencies. So at the moment, we're looking at emergency services and parks and conservation. Capital Metro, that would be the 12 or 13 kilometers of light rail between the Gungalum City Centre and the centre of town is the first step to a light rail network. Urban Development, that's where planning's a big issue in this town, as you would expect, because we have both municipal functions and state functions. So we have an Urban Development Committee of Cabinet that really just talks about urban planning and land use policies. And Security and Emergency Management Cabinet, which we get together every now and then. And that's probably, I'd like to tell you a lot about what happens in that one because that one's almost the most interesting Cabinet meeting, but it does involve the Chief Police Officer, the head of the ESA, and we talk a little bit about counterterrorism and bushfire threats and other things that if we knew too much about, we wouldn't sleep. We take our security of our documents very seriously. So each of our Cabinet ministers and officials are given a Cabinet iPad, which has absolutely no other use except for the use of Cabinet. And if a Cabinet iPad got stolen, we can shut it down remotely. If this year, I think we've lost two Cabinet documents that have turned up at the camera times and the AFP have been called on both occasions. So we do take the security of what goes to Cabinet quite seriously. The Chief Minister chairs the Cabinet meeting and really it's part team meeting, just think you and your six colleagues getting together, what's happening this week. So it's part team meeting and part discussion around what Sue talked about, ministers talking about what they saw on the weekend, who they bumped into, is part of that. That goes on in that sort of team meeting environment. But the submissions that come to Cabinet and the discussions around proposals, these quite a formal process. The Chief absolutely decides what gets on the agenda, what is not on the agenda. If she's not happy with Urban Development Committee, for example, she might not call a meeting for years, it's really the Chief Show. And my understanding is it's the Chief Show and has ever been thus. And if I went to a different government, it'd be the Prime Minister's Show or the Premier's Show, but it really is the Chief and her team getting together. So this is what Cabinet does. I had to look it up in the textbooks so that I could give you the right answer. They make political decisions, they resolve disagreements, they decide policy and strategy, exchange information, ensure whole of government coordination and set rules for government administration. So when they come together, they do make political decisions and Jenny asked, you know, we had a couple of questions earlier today about, you know, where does the politics come? And I think in the Cabinet room, that's the time where advice provided by the public service gets put in, advice provided by their political advisers gets put in, advice provided by their party mechanism, by think tanks, by lobbyists, all of that gets discussed in the room about what the Cabinet ministers are hearing on the street. Certainly the documents that go are the minister's documents, they may be drafted by whole teams of public servants, but the ministers own those documents. Once a decision is made of Cabinet, we, you know, we type up the, we'll write up the decision, the head of the public service is officially the Cabinet Secretary, and that becomes the shared government decision. So all ministers own that decision, and it's not appropriate to, after the decision to go, oh, well, I never really liked that, or that was Minister Corbell's idea, or we let that one go through because Minister Barr was in a bad mood. There's none of that discussion, it becomes the government decision, and that is the decision that is then implemented furiously by the public service as a whole. It's up to the ministers to balance the politics, the policy and the administration. It's for the public servants to worry about policy and the administration. So when we do decision making, when it comes forward, there's always an analysis of the options, of the available options for government to act. We do a triple bottom line assessment, so we assess, the government assesses whether it's the social impacts, the economic impacts, and the environmental impacts of anything. We look at a communication strategy, it's very important to this government that they tell the community to be out what they're up to and keep the community informed. Regulatory impacts and financial implications is also a part in every cabinet submission where we talk about consultation. And that's consultation both internal to government, so if health is doing something, what does education think if community services is doing something, does it overlap with JAX? What does the Treasury think of it? But also engagement with external stakeholders. Now that engagement with external stakeholders can take many forms it can have formal consultation processes over six weeks, it can include round tables, it can unsolicited advice comes to the government in many forms. So that's acknowledged. Now, having talked a lot about the secrecy of our documents, we are a very open government. Two weeks after the fact, we let people know what we decided in cabinet by putting out a small summary of the cabinet outcomes. And I think on last count, 17 people subscribed to that service. So there's obviously an immense amount of interest in the work of cabinet. And I did the maths and there were 17 members of the Legislative Assembly, but six of them were already in there. So I reckon there's six others. But these are... Oh, and Robert Ross. So now we haven't tracked down the amount of people that do that. But I think what it is is understanding that the Chief Minister, and she's spoken on this, she's committed to keeping people informed. And even if it is underutilised, the fact that we do it and we're open to it keeps people up to date with at least what we're doing two weeks after the fact. So it's a small summary. It doesn't have any of the juicy bits, but it tells you what was discussed and what the general decision was. Another thing unique to the territory is that we released our cabinet documents only 10 years later after they've been considered. So at one extreme... Oh, the federal cabinet is 30 years. So people will know when they read, because if you're a cabinet secretary and you're a nerd like myself, we scour the New Year's newspaper and find out what was discussed in cabinet 30 years earlier. In New Zealand, they have a real open government approach and they actually release the documents a couple of weeks after. So they take a very different approach to them. And we have one where 10 years and we release those on Canberra Day. So we just released a list of the documents that were discussed 10 years earlier. At that time, we normally get a few calls from the Canberra Times and interested policy wonks around town and we send out the documents. I think when the 10 year mark was put in, no one actually thought that they would be in government for 10 years. So it's quite interesting to be in a place where, yeah, certainly Minister Gulliver and later Minister Barr were in the early cabinets and we're releasing the documents out of that. So again, we're a bit open and transparent. Now we'll talk about the exciting topic of the budget, which I know everyone loves. The budget, there's a bit of doom and gloom around town. People will have seen the doom and gloom around Commonwealth Public Service cuts, et cetera. And I think that's absolutely true. I mean, we've seen a decrease in interstate migration. The normal people that move into town didn't move into town this year. Discretionary spendings down in this town at the moment. And I think what happens is when you're concerned about your job, you don't buy a coffee, you don't go out for dinner. You start, you decrease your consumption, you decrease your consumer confidence. And if you're running a small business, you don't put on an extra part-time employee. You just, we'll just see, we'll just do. So I think there's a little bit of that around the town. The government, the ACT government is certainly concerned about that. But also, I'll just put it in perspective, the ACT government really doesn't have the ability to turn this town around through its spending. The annual budget's around $4.5 to $4.9 billion, which is less than 10% of the ACT economy. So even if we decided to, and you never would, even if you doubled the spending of the ACT government, it would have less than 20% impact on the ACT economy. So we are, as a government, a small player in this town. But that said, we can do things. I think people would have seen this year. I'll just see if it's something. Yeah, we'll go to the next slide, because I'll talk about it. So this, no, back. So this is where it comes from. So that's what makes up $4.8 billion, $4.5 billion. So Commonwealth grants that's driving health and education, taxation, which we all love paying. I enjoy every time I get a parking fine. I think, yes, investing in my community. So I think everyone should think that. It's just another investment in the community. And given our word for the ACT government, I think I should be able to salary sacrifice my parking fines, because it's just a running cost for me. Interesting income, sales of goods and services. So that's roughly what it is. And people will be aware that that taxation mix, the trend is going through a big change to move us from less reliance on stamp duty and one-off taxes and more reliance on rates. So that 32% will remain 32%. It's just what's in it, will change. And this is what we spend it on. It'll surprise you all. I'm sure $1.4 billion on health. That's where the cash is. If you want to know where the money is, it's in health, government schooling. So healthy and smart, $2.5 billion to get through our health and education systems. Disability, justice and community safety, housing, policing, and emergency services, that's nearly $1 billion there. Urban renewal, $700 million. And then growing the economy, $300 million. But our big expenditures absolutely health and education. If you want to know if health expenditures got a 10-year average of growing at 10%. So at that rate, our health spend will be, well actually we'll only do health by about 2050 because we won't have money for anything else. Education runs at about 6% on a 10-year average. Disability in the last five years has been about a 14% increase each and every year. So they're big spends and big increases in those areas. About 47% of that is wages for the ACT government. So think about your own organisation. So that's where the money is. We've got about 9,500 FTE or 23,000 public servants. So that's a big lot. Health, 6,100 FTE, education, 4,700 FTE. So these are big organisations that we're running in a relatively small town. And when it comes to budget time, just again to put it in perspective, when we have the big gala day of Budget Day, which is a highlight of the calendar for most of us, we're really only fighting over about 2% or 3% of our budget. New initiatives announced on Budget Day will rank in around about $100 million if we're lucky in a good year. So about 2.5%. So that means basically 98% of your budget is what we did last year. So if you want to know what the budget next year is going to look like, have a look at this year's budget. It's 98% written. If you want the one after that, it's also 98% written. So there's not a lot of change. So when we're fighting for new initiatives, both all looking for new expenditures, we're not looking to, we're not going to close Canberra Hospital to put that money somewhere else. Canberra Hospital will be there for a while. So we are all fighting for a very, very small amount of money. As Sue Chapman said earlier, the best idea really, I would say, for the community sector, and it's the same thing we do, how can we make the work that we do fit in with an election commitment? How can it fit into a parliamentary agreement? Or how can the work that we do change within the current spend? Because if you're waiting for new cash, it's hard to get that new cash and it's going to be harder for the next, well, you know, the foreseeable four or five years. This just shows only Treasury would put together a graph like this. And it shows where our money goes over your lifespan. So when you're born, you get about 12 grand a year and then you go to school. And then when you're in your working age, the ACT government doesn't spend much money on you at all. And then you hit 60 and then you hit our health system. So only Treasury would think to put that together, but I thought that just shows where our spend, that's where our spend goes. So that's why we do have a world-class health system. That's why we have a $1.5 billion health system. And we have a wonderful school system. But all of our, the ACT government spends its money on schools and hospitals. After that, we don't do much. Okay. This is how we put together the budget. Well, this is how the government puts together the budget. On the first Tuesday in June, we have Budget Day, which is the festival. And then on Thursday, Susan runs the ACT Cost Forum where she tears apart the budget and we all go back and self-flagellate and wish we'd done something better. And then we have estimates and that's where the opposition parties get to question every dollar spent by the government and that's every dollar. That's the $4.9 billion. So that's something that public servants particularly enjoy those two weeks where we get to justify our existence. And then in August, the budget is debated in the assembly. And then we start again. And then it September comes when we start working on next year's budget. So today or tomorrow, the Treasurer will announce that budget consultation 2015-16 opens today or opens tomorrow if he doesn't need to release tomorrow. And runs until October the 13th. Last year, I'll talk about the consultation. And you know, November and December, cabinet meets for the first time. That's when Treasurer come across and the Treasurer says, by the way, we don't have any money. And that's what they do every November. Then we agree that we have no money. Then we think of a plethora of good ideas either brought to us by the public service or the community. We work furiously over those over the summer months. And then we come back in February. We still haven't got any money. And our 300 good ideas retracts to about a hundred good ideas. And then over a period of the next two months, we argue out of those hundred good ideas, which 40 will get money. And then we announce the budget. And then we go to the ACOS forum. And then we go to estimates and we do it all again. So that's the yearly cycle of the budget. There's no secrets in that. I think this Treasurer has been extremely keen to get early consultation, which is why it's the September and October. Because that's the reality of, if it's a good idea and he needs to find the money, the government needs to find the money, decisions will take some time to be worked out. So last year, the submissions, you can do them online or you can send them in. Probably many people in this room were part of the 80 people that wrote in. But I don't know if anyone's here from the Equestrian Association, Roman Films, Property Council, Carers ACT, Deakin Residents Association, but also ones brought in to yourselves, ACT Shelter, Youth Coalition, YWCA. So 80 submissions were received over that six-week period. And then they are considered as well. And some individuals, some local Cane Barons, probably about a dozen local Cane Barons just decided to put in a submission on their own behalf. But just to stress yet again, we're really, we're fighting over about 2.5% of the budget, if we're lucky. So every consultation, last consultation in this consultation has the same series of questions, and they're online and you can either fill them in on the online form. But what services do you believe are important to the territory? And if you guessed health and education, our spending pattern would show that you've guessed correctly, but this is really about what does the community want? What infrastructure priorities should the government consider? Are there any services that we could deliver more efficiently? And I think that's where truly the, I think that's where we can draw on the community, because I think we've all seen an arm of government that you wonder, well, I wonder why that doesn't quite work, or why does it take me 25 minutes to try and work out the online form to enroll my kid at preschool? Not that that happened. But, you know, there might be more efficient ways, and that's the sort of thing that we could do. This one's a hard one, but you know, should anything be a fee for service? And I'm, you know, probably there's certainly people in this community that are doing it tough, and I don't discount that, but there's many people in this community on dual incomes who are probably accessing services for free, be they health, education, or any of our other services. So maybe some of those should be fee for service. That's what the government's interested to know. And can we stop providing a particular service? And that's also gonna be a difficult one. I don't think anyone ever has ever suggested that we stop providing a service, but we'll see. Anyhow, there's an online form you can fill it out, or you can send in a formal consultation, and then that will be fed into the mix. Then just to talk a little bit about how to get involved with government generally, which is, so there is the formal consultation process that we talked about, and Sue Chapman also talked about bumping into ministers at the IGA and getting information from our community, but it is true in this town, we are part of our community, and many of those casual conversations do turn into good ideas, or at least get questioned, and they certainly do get followed up on. But if you want to, all our consultations are at that time to talk, act.gov.au. Twitter cabinet's something that, when I talk to other cabinet secretaries around Australia, which I do do, they laugh at the thought of Twitter cabinet, knowing that cabinet is a very important thing that, you know, with all the processes that have existed since Menzies. When I say that, you know, we've got a young cabinet, we do, we've got a young cabinet, they're all afaid with social media, and they can hit on the Twitter cabinet. What happens on Twitter cabinet is, the cabinet ministers do go into the cabinet room, we set them all up with laptops, these big screens, not dissimilar to this, and people tweet questions or comments to the government, and the ministers sit there and busily tweet back, and it's hilarious to watch, but also it's, if you want instant access to the ministers, it absolutely happens. It is them, yeah, I was gonna point out, like even on Facebook or LinkedIn, if you follow Minister Barr or that, they actually do that themselves, we actually don't have 150 public servants that are tweeting on behalf of the government, they actually do tweet, and I always know when the Treasurer's not sleeping, because he had a lot of late night updates, and they're like, oh, he's in a bad mood, but he tweets, he does all his own tweets, he does all his own LinkedIn updates, he does all his own Facebook updates, and they are keen to get involved, and we're actually, we are thinking around, once we move more Wi-Fi throughout the city, how do we engage widely with people when they're on the run, when people are busy on the run, they might not have time to hit in community formal submissions, but good ideas can be in a tweet. The Chief Minister also has her blog and her page, I think she gets some people to help her write it, but she certainly got a, they're very personal messages, so again, that's how you can access the Chief Minister. Chief Minister's Talkback is a hoot for those that listen to it. We in the Northern Territories, the other, they also have Chief Minister's Talkback, so there's two territories in the government, in Australia that go down that path. You can, and on Chief Minister's Talkback, absolutely, we follow up everyone, and not only do we follow up, we publish a fortnight afterwards, the follow up that we've done as a public service. The Chief Minister loves that time, and she also makes sure that anyone who rings up at least gets a phone call, or their problem addressed quite quickly. So think about for yourselves, through your own organisations, or for people that you're dealing with, these are the ways that you can access government, without having to learn the wonders of cabinet and the wonders of the budget process, you can still certainly engage with our ministers, and you can email them direct. Their emails, you know, to reveal the secret, they don't do their own emails, they do their own Twitter, they don't all do their own emails, so sometimes you'll send in an email and you'll just ask through, you know, oh, just by the way, that so and so happened, and then three weeks later, you get a very bureaucratic response, because, you know, three other bureaucrats, and you know, about thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money has gone into responding to that email. Or you can just tweet them, guess which I would prefer you to. No, it's true, what we found, we're talking to a guy from Queensland Premiers, and they've just done a, they did a survey of constituents that wrote to government, and they found that of the constituents that wrote to government, 44% of them actually didn't want a reply, they just want a government to know what they thought. Now, we, in the territory, we, 100%, you write to a minister, you will get a reply, our ministers drive that, absolutely. But isn't that interesting how people engage with government, that they just want their, they want government to know what's going on, but they don't want a series of bureaucrats to give them a bureaucratic reply, they want someone to listen. So I think that's something that I'm spending a bit of time thinking about, you know, how do we actually engage with the time poor people of Canberra? Because we've all got busy lives, you know, we've all got school pickups, we've all got appointments to make, we've all got that. So how can we engage with our community in a meaningful fashion, but also for time poor people? We also had a digital newsletter on the Canberra Connect website. What you can do there is you can just log on, get yourself a little profile on Canberra Connect, and then tick the boxes of what you're interested in. And if something, if the government's pushing out a message or a media release that hits one of your topics, it'll just get sent to you. So that's not a feedback chain. I suppose that's an information sharing channel for the government to inform what's going on. But that said, I think about 30,000 Canberrans received some information via that channel. So I think what I'm saying at the end is really, the government is trying to keep engaged. I think consultation takes many forms, and there's formal consultation, but there's also information sharing, there's consultation on the what we should do, but also the how we should do it. And so I think just trying to keep engaged with government, because many people don't spend their careers in government, unlike myself. I think that was all I was gonna say. I was just gonna talk about one other consultation that happened this year. After the federal government budget, the chief minister pulled together a few roundtables. So if you looked at our budget cycle, that was right at the death's door. A lot of months and months of work had been into it, but the chief minister pulled together some roundtables. There was a business one, there was a community sector one, there was a young people one. And truly in that final sort of two weeks of the budget, things were changed. So it's a long birthing, but things still can change in that process. And I think the chief minister's gonna report back either in October or November on the outcomes of those roundtables. But again, that's the chief minister going, hang on, bad budget came out from the feds on Tuesday. Let's get together on Thursday. Let's have a quick thing about what we can do. Let's change the ACT government budget just a little bit. So I think the way we're consulting with the community has evolved over the 13 years of the Stanhope-Galloway government. And I think it would be remiss not to take up those opportunities. And so if I can get someone in my team to teach me how to use Twitter, I'm sure someone can find a 12 year old that can. No, I'll just say a little Twitter fact, because I thought I was really hit when I got onto Twitter. And I thought I'd been breaking new ground. And then I found out the average age of a Twitter user is 38. And I'm thinking, I know where I fit in that bell curve. And I thought I was with the young people. So that's cabinet and process and consultation. Happy to take questions on any of those topics straight away. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, the process is exactly the same. What it really is, it's a call for new funding. You know, it's the Commonwealth stepping out of, stepping out of an area that the Commonwealth traditionally did fund. The, as Treasurer Barr said at that forum, there is no, there is no fallback plan. I think he also said, let's see what gets through the Senate and let's see what budget is actually delivered. But the other thing and the reality of it is if the Commonwealth pulled out health funding, there is no way, unless we tripled, quadrupled, there's no way we could fill every gap. The ACT Government wouldn't have the capacity, the taxing capacity to fill every gap of the Commonwealth. However, if any program was defunded by the Commonwealth and the need still exists on demonstrated need, the ACT Government would have to act in some form. I don't think the ACT Government and actually the, there is a Senate inquiry into the impacts of the, of the Abbott budget and our Government has put in a submission into that and it just outlines exactly that, that we don't have the capacity to step in. It's not right that the ACT Government should step in just because of a change of Commonwealth Government. I think it's, I think we're in for an interesting time. In this space, people, health reform took three lots of goes before health reform actually got through COAG. So, and then it got through and then almost, within 12 months of the third go of it getting through COAG, the Abbott governments walked away from that third wave of reform. So I think it's an interesting time in that intergovernmental state Commonwealth relations. There's a white paper on Federation, which is also a policy debate being had with that. So that's a broader context. In reality, if there's a demonstrated need, the Government would weigh up that priority as against many of the other priorities that it sees. But, I don't know, there's a lot of, I'm surprised that, I mean, when you think of budgets and we've all been in around for a while, you remember budget night would be the lockup, the formal lockup and then they'd cut to the commentators and the commentators would talk and then they'd talk to the ACOS and ACTU and there'd be the whole line of people. And now tweeting alone seems to get as much media coverage in the days after the federal budget. I'm surprised at how governments are responding to that, including this government. So you should write a letter though. But it may look like a formal business case because it will have to be a formal business case at some point. You have a question? Yes, I have one about the directorates. Yep. The extent to which they don't talk to each other, I'm perhaps not thinking of the cabinet level process, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't go to cabinet. I was wondering if you have any sort of role in facilitating that into directory? So, yeah. Okay, the question was how does the public service, the bureaucracies, the directorates, work together or work across or communicate prior to things going to cabinet, or prior to them being elevated to cabinet, I think is probably more important. One thing that we've had since 2011, since the change to the ACT public services, we have a strategic board where the head of the service and all the directors general meet and they meet on a fortnightly basis and that's to discuss both the policy and the administration of the government. There is a keenness by both previous head of service and this one for early engagement. So in the cabinet process, absolutely any document that goes to cabinet gets circulated to every other agency at least twice in the development of that process and you hope that that's also backed up by either roundtables or consultations. So there's a very formal process of it going around twice and you can read textbooks about that because we actually follow the policy cycle like any cabinet process. But I think what it is is more about the value that is placed on it and the ACT public service has been told well and truly by the government that they need to talk to each other more and I think that's what's being rewarded and that's what's being valued. So I think that sets the values of the service. But you can't get away from the fact that human services is human services and we're delivering with the one community so the more we work together, both at the coal face at the service delivery end at the policy proposal end and at the cabinet end, hopefully that would get it but it's certainly a great value placed on working together. Other questions? Well I have to say that one of the things that I learned out of that and this is now my personal objective to reduce pressure on the ACT budget suggests it might be yours as well and that is to work until you're 80, stay healthy the whole time, live in your own home and die quietly after a very short illness. That way, that way we'll protect the ACT budget. So that's my mission from now on. My mission is to pay enough parking fines so that when I do get ill, I'll have a health system that will save me. So join me in thanking, thank you. Thank you.