 Hi, this is Jesse Catton, and this is my new interview series, which I'm calling So what I'm interviewing now is I'm interviewing people that I think are doing the most interesting things in music today. I'm going to start doing a series where if you're doing something exceptional, you're doing something cool, I'm going to talk to you about it. So I wanted to do this with hundreds who I've known for a while. And my friend, Sam Pura, who produced their new record, Somewhere Nowhere, which just came out and I wanted to talk to them because this record is insanely creative. It is just such an interesting record that calls to mind so many different musical things that I love. And what I think is so interesting about this band is they've made a humongous, humongous transformation, their sound over the years. And they've done it really, really, really well. So I wanted to get them on. I wanted them to talk about what it's like to change your sound so much as they've changed it and talk about what the thoughts were that went into making such an awesome record. And I thought Sam would be fun along for the ride because Sam and I talk creativity and he was such a big part of this record. And we're always texting about music. So I thought this would make a good conversation. And I'm incredibly psyched on how this came out. But at the end, we also talk about one of the other interesting things about this band, which is that they have this incredible merch line that really does well for them. That's so much more exceptional than what any group their size is doing. So I wanted to talk to them a little bit about that. So whether you're interested in the creativity around their record or you're interested in how they do their business, I encourage you to watch this interview and then I encourage you to stream their record because I am not kidding. You might say it's either my third or fourth favorite record of this year. So obviously, whenever you talk to somebody who has made music that makes that big a difference to you, it's always exciting. So I look forward to starting this series with them and talking to hundreds. So here's Chadwick Johnson and Sam Pura talking about hundreds new records somewhere nowhere. So if someone scrolled through the hundredth discography, they could not be blamed for thinking it may not be the same band. So many bands get caught up in their identity and then never mind you have actually had success with these sounds. What's the thought behind this evolution that guides you to do what so many musicians do and stick with that sound that did well for them? How have you guys navigated the thoughts behind that? I mean, for a long time there, we were just kind of ringing the sponge. Well, explain to me what you mean by ringing the sponge. I mean, just like running the band as just like a business and doing what we needed to do to get by to get on the trajectory that we were on to be basically just I don't really know the end of that goal was probably just like to be a metalcore band that could play on Warp Tour. And I think once we realized and saw that like, hey, like, OK, we're getting older. That really that goal sucks. I mean, it's a great it's a great like first goal. But I think for all of us, we were like, OK, so really what's like the goal for us with making music? Do we have are we having fun? And the answer to that question was no, back in 2016, 2015. So what was so what wasn't fun about it? Well, I guess I guess I can't really speak for anyone but me. But I was sick of screaming out my head hurt. I was sick of just like going on tour and playing music that I wasn't like actively wanting to listen to like genre wise or just in general. You know, we were writing stuff on the side that we were way more excited about than we were to write like a hundredth record in 2015 or 2016. So to me, it feels natural at this point, looking back. But I mean, obviously, there's been the 2017 record was a big shock to people. I think that definitely like took the lid off the can of like it ripped the band date off of like, hey, like, OK, this band isn't going to be the same. And I felt like with this record, I was like, hey, we should just go approach it from the same exact way we did rare and we did. And it just came up a completely different way. And like, I think it should at this point, we've kind of realized like it's always going to be like that. And if I could hop in and just what Chad would say for one second. I think the best way to kind of sum up like, like when we started working on rare, like them being like, all right, we got to like, it comes down to the whole, you know, fast, cheap, great thing. You know, like they're at a period where they want to make a great record. But the record in Hopeless's eyes is going to be it needs to be done fast and cheaply so that it can be on warp tour for them to promote it. And that's the entire point of this. And like, I think the entire vibe of like everyone in like really Chad more or so was like, like, who cares about warp tour? Like, what about like Coachella? What about like fucking like playing, you know, O2 arena? Like, I want to go past this whole vibe of of. And I think that he like, I think like, you know, finishing the album and going into like warp tour was like, this is the ceiling that I want to make sure it doesn't limit my band's potential at all. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's kind of like that was the main, you know, focus that I could really pick up from them was like, they don't want to be defined by this scene, by this sound, by these people. They wanted to ultimately play music that they wanted to play in here and and are actually passionate about, you know? Yeah. And you know, it's like a funny thing with this. And, you know, obviously we all come from this what's for lack of better word, warp tour scene that like the small mindedness of that scene goes against like a philosophy that everybody gets outside of it, which is that when you only aim for something most of the time, you're coming up a little short for what you aim for. When you're aiming for something as shitty as just getting on warp tour. Yeah, it's usually not going to go well for you, my guy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, not to discredit that though, because like in the early days of the band, that was like, you know, when we're building at first, it's like, dude, if we could ever get that offer, we would be stoked. That would be the first kind of stepping stone, which is, you know, it's probably the same for starting a podcast. You get to the point where you're like, OK, I made my first episode. OK, well, that was kind of shitty. OK, it's time. Like, how can I make this better? What will make this more enjoyable? It's just like to me, I think that's the first that was the first step in our evolution. But like now, I mean, we're obviously at a time where there's a million indie artists making dope music all the time. And they're not even thinking about going on tour, which is crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's always funny because like when you get in the indie thing, too, like I remember like going to a grizzly bear concert and they're playing to 4,000 people Beyonce and Jay-Z are there with Chuck Schumer and like, but they have two yellow shirts for sale. And it's like, hmm, guess they don't really care about their merch much. And it is like so different how different the game is, depending on what it is. And like, obviously, and we'll get into this later, is you guys have gone very heavy on that merch game. Yeah. So let's talk more, though, because even this record is a departure from Rare. I feel like the last records added more like a band that made a record with some band practice, whereas this more closely resembles a record made in the vein of like Tame Impala, Nin or Loveless. Talk to me about how you got there and how this all was different than the last one. Yeah, for sure. I'd say the record started when me and Alex wrote the song, whatever. Which at the time we were just trying to write. We knew that we were going to go in a new direction from Rare, just because of what we had both been writing and what we were having fun writing compared to because when we were writing Rare, we were having a blast because we had never used that many effects or sung on the whole record or. But I think, you know, we definitely look at everything objectively. And I think after the record, we realized Rare is a cool record. I still love that record. But there's things on it that that we wanted to be different. Like it was kind of crazy, aggressive, big drums all the time, guitars, reverb. By the end of it, you're just like in this massive arena of like texture. And everything felt like it was really, really fast. So I think our goal, which when we started on the record was like, OK, let's write some songs that are like using sense in a way that isn't like a synth song. So that's we made, we wrote whatever based around that. And like, you know, we definitely did some new stuff on that one that we'd never would have thought about doing on Rare. Like a transition where we just loop the entire song like over itself and then filter it out to get into a bridge. And I was like, OK, this is now we're starting to incorporate like parts about electronic music that I've loved over the past, you know, five, 10 years. So I think that was kind of the first point of it. And then once we made that, we were like, let's put this out and see what if people like it, we put it out and it's like gotten. It's still like one of our most popular songs in the last like couple years. So that's when we were kind of like when we saw like such a good response to that. It definitely I don't think it would have changed how we did it, but it definitely motivated us and like was a confidence boost to say, OK, cool, let's make a record where we do the synth thing and the guitar thing and the real drum thing and the fake drum thing and the electronic thing and the indie rock thing and try to make it all mesh together basically with the goal of just writing songs that we fuck with. So like that is basically how the album started. We didn't know that that was the start of an album. We were just writing singles and stuff. But yeah, as far as I mean, I think I mean, and for this album after whatever, I swear, like even before what I mean, I think we have a total of like 65 instrumental songs that we had for this album. The first 40 we like didn't use it all pretty much. I think when you first came here, Chad, you had like you like looked at your folder and you were like, I made 47 songs last year. I think that's like how many I'm finished. Or yeah, right before we started working on new stuff. Yeah. And then Alex had a grip of songs he sent over to. But I have like 20 ideas. Yeah. But I think overall I feel like we we were just trying to get somewhere and we had to kind of get through those instrumentals to get where we wanted to be. We had to just get rid of a bunch of fluff. And yeah, I think we kind of also had to get our chops up as far as like sound selection and sound design and in general, like songwriting abilities and structures and all that. So I mean, so none of those early songs were kind of moving the needle at all. And we knew that we needed as a band for this album because it had been such a long kind of we put out four singles last year. Everyone's like, where's the album? We're like, oh, shit, we don't have an album. Like we're just kind of trying to stay afloat here. So we added a little I did and I'm sure Alex did in some ways, too. But I definitely added some pressure to the fact of like, OK, this album has to bang when it comes out. So none of these if I don't love the song, like if I don't love the demo, like it's it's not even I'm not even going to try to put it on the record. So that kind of kind of became the the new goal. And then that that brings us kind of up to speed of me basically going to Sam Studio and making the bulk of the record from from scratch. Yeah. And you know, this it's funny because this is the way you do a real record. And so many people just there, they don't have that push to do it. I mean, it's like that thing Rick Rubin talks about is that he wants two and a half records for every record you put out. And they're going to throw away one full record of that and never even record it. So Sam, how did you see it from there? I like we've talked about this before. And I know that you really like this word, too. But you know, what's really important is vision. And it's very obvious that Chad, you know, has at this point has a very strong vision and like knows what kind of colors and sounds he wants to paint with, you know what I mean? And so that's where like it's so much fun to be able to be like, all right, sick, well, let's just get you on a track that's going to start streamlining you like quicker towards your vision. You know what I mean? Like it's so clear, like where I can help him as opposed to like, I don't know what the fuck he's doing. I'm alone for the ride. You know what I mean? Like it's like, all right, let me just put him in the room next door. Like let's get him working on some stuff. If he like is unsure of something, he'll come over as I'm like building a pedal or whatever and be like, you know, check this out. Like I need some help on this and like I could come in and bounce ideas off of, you know, and like really, I think if anything, it's like I really saw my role as like really just helping streamline the process and keep things inspirational and keep it like keep it moving so that he felt like he was making really good productivity towards towards his vision. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's way different than like a band like with Rare where we just came to your studio and we're like, Hey, we're here for four weeks or whatever time and by the end of it, we need an entire album. So yeah, exactly. Whatever compromises we have to make during that we're okay with because we're on this label timeline and the whole thing that you mentioned before. Yeah, the whole fast, cheap thing. Yeah, this this was clearly like we're all we care about is making something great right now. So like let's just get on the process of like making something great here and like seeing where we're going to like how we're going to get you like out of here having a bulk of material that like you're like, this is what's up. I can't wait to fucking go home and like dive in further on all of this, you know, as opposed to like by the time he leaves, he needs to have his drums engineered, his fucking mix ready to go. I need his fault. You know what I mean? Like it was way more like I prefer that. I think it's so cool to just like collab and be best friends and work on a record as opposed to like fucking engineer and record a band. You know, yeah. Well, and particularly like obviously the worst thing we've all been through this is just like that thing of like, well, the label says we're out of time and money. But yeah, I know these four songs kind of aren't where they're supposed to be. But whoops, they're going to end up on the record anyways. Yeah, exactly. And then we wonder why the number one complaint about albums on Drop Day on Twitter is how much filler is on them. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things though that I think is among the exceptional things of this record is there's a coherency while maintaining a diversity. And I think that that's truly like while having great songs. The hardest thing to do is do poppy songs that have a unique weird sound to them and still don't let the song get obscured. So you guys want to accomplish that. But to the harder layer that I find really impressive about this record is that most of the time when people do that, it's like the sounds are very similar from track to track, or they're so dissimilar that it's kind of like this gets annoying for some of the songs. This isn't the mood. This all feels like a vibe while being diverse. I know that's really hard because you have a million sounds to work with. How do you guys navigate that? Do you have any thoughts on that? At least from like a initial phase, I guess we could kind of talk about my setup at your studios. And yeah, I mean, at least for that majority of songs. I mean, but even before that, I would say I started working on songs with like starting with no template at all. So maybe I started doing that around like right after whatever. So that helped because I realized a lot of the I get really focused on the end instead of the beginning sometimes. So I'll get lazy with the sound and be like, I'll fuck it up later. I'll add I'll make it weird later. And so I found myself doing that on some of the demos where they all just kind of started to sound the same. And I realized I should just start every session with like what at that time was like no template where I was just like throwing stuff and Ableton and fucking with it and adding stuff over it. So, you know, iridescent, cauterize, leave yourself. Well, yeah, all those songs are just different because I just stopped with the template basically. And that helped a lot. But then when we got when I set up at Sam Studio, we set up a template, but it was like a template that was built around using a bunch of different instruments. So that definitely helped me like being able to just to walk to something and it already be plugged in instead of getting bogged down and using a VST because it was easier, which I still even though we had that template, I still found myself doing because I'm just I'm just better with a VST than I am with hardware and like recalling that sucks. And but I think establishing that template helped me mentally be like, OK, cool. I have like a crazy palette of colors here that it felt like the opportunities were endless of what I could make. So then it almost like I played a trick on myself to where I just tried to not use the same sound again when I started pulling up VSTs. And honestly, I had been stacking like software sense and like diving in and fucking around with those for like months and months and months before I went into Sam's studio. So that definitely helped, too. But also, I mean, so that's from like a kind of granular way to look at it. But even from like a more zoomed out, I mean, when I would show Sam songs, I mean, the goal was basically to go in there for three weeks and write a new song every day that sounded completely different. So I think that also helped because I was trying to bring in a bunch of different styles that I liked or even modern or old or classic or like on even on like the pop chart of songs that I liked, how they sounded. I liked where like the mix of them. I like some of the instruments that were used. And I think that kind of is the third piece that helped me kind of make everything sound hopefully to most people, all songs different. I mean, you're obviously going to get the average idiot who's like, this all sounds like electronic music and they all sound the same. And I'm like, dude, you are a fucking idiot. Alan Douches would often talk about the thing that, you know, is like classical composer friends would be like, I can't tell the difference between the Beatles and Converge. Yes. I'm like, well, first time I heard the guy say that, I like I did that thing of like, oh, no, he's for real out here. That's insanity. Well, I mean, people hear music very desperately. Yeah, music is subjective. It's very strange. So that so with that, like, were there struggles with that? And like, how did you guys get through them? Like, can you talk to me? The thing about that is that was there things that were really like walls you hit that you had realizations with? This leads you, Sam. A lot of songs, like on my mixes, I wasn't treating every sense. Like, after I treated it, I was fine with it. Like, but then when I sent it to Sam to mix, which we did over zoom for like two weeks or more than that, it was insane. But he wants I colored it and then he colored it again. Then I think things really started to separate and kind of gain their own like moment in the song or in the sound. Right, Sam? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like, just to talk about, like, we know what he was first like writing, like to give you like the nerd kind of explanation of like the setup, like what he walked in, I was like, all right, you know, we got two control rooms, let's have you set up your entire rig over there. Let me get you like your Helix set up on a channel. Let me get you this bass D.I. set up on a channel. Which keys do you want to use? Let's get them on their own channels and like route MIDI to it. So like, like Chad is saying, like he could go and just be like, oh, I want to record guitar and pick it up and press record, as opposed to like have to set that up and stuff. So I kind of I helped like really try to like streamline him to be able to stay focused on like just creation, you know what I mean? And like, that's why I really like, you know, kind of dabbling around with Ableton at home now when I can, because like I thought Ableton was so cool to work with in terms of that, like when I work on Pro Tools, like, like he said, like he hears big picture, like end result, like I hear all of that in Pro Tools, like, and I hear it so much so on like a pixel level that like I have to magnify everything and work on the details. But like in Ableton, it's like that that whole kind of process isn't really there. So it's actually really fun to just stay in the creative, like working on a song moment, you know what I mean? But I could also see how like the editing capabilities aren't really there, like with like, you know, really fine edit, like vocalizing and all that kind of stuff that like I love to do with with tracks, you know? So I think the only thing that became troublesome was like, how to successfully get his data from Ableton into Pro Tools without harming anything he did, you know what I mean? Like and being like, like, oh, just turn off all your effects and give me your shit dry and all fucking make it cool on my end. Like, no, no, no, like he has a very, very, very clear vision of like where he's going and I want to I want to jump into there and help that achieve its desired end result as opposed to be like, oh, it's cool. Just turn all my own shit onto it. You know what I mean? Like if anything like it's like there's a whole like, don't kill the patient thing. Like I'm not fucking just coming in and fucking doing plastic surgery. Like it's like very careful analysis of making sure that I'm actually doing a beneficial thing to the songs and the sounds, you know, so like I wouldn't say that it was like it was troublesome. But like that was an attention to detail that like I really hadn't put into other stuff before. You know what I mean? Like successfully getting vocals from Chad being like, oh, I think it's because like, you know, like getting his wet vocal with like, you know, his compression and his effects and whatever on it. And then I'd hear like a tiny lip smack that would be out of two off time with the other double and would create a flam in my head. And I'm like, something doesn't sound right on this vocal. Send me a dry. Let me let me go down to the finer details. But so if anything, it was like it could have been annoying to like go through every single step of that for some people. But I found that fun because I troubleshoot at every single issue that I heard and it sounded better each time. You know, so it just was a much more different and unique process of getting the audio files successfully into my pro tools that we're actually going to benefit them as opposed to reduce their potential. You know, yeah. And to get into the weeds with that, I mean, I think that is one of the really crazy things with like mixing and what you always hear about people have to go through is that like, yeah, so much of this stuff that would say it's an effect that's only enabled and that's where it sounds right. And you've got to then be like, oh, but though in the mix, we need a little bit less compression for that to work and finding what that cocktail is and going back and forth is so much of what it is. It's different every single time. You know, and I don't know if you got to read the gear slots with Serban's assistant that recently did like a Q&A on that. Dude, it's really good, man. I'm like, what's cool about it is like, there's no fucking tricks. You know what I mean? Like, what do they rely on all the time? Like low cut filters, DSers, you know what I mean? Like automating, like vocal things. Like, do you use like a drum bus? Well, only if it's in the session that this person gives me. You know what I mean? Like, if not, then like, I only do it to resolve an issue. Like it's like so, yeah, duh, it's like logical, detailed work on caring about making the song sound great. There's no different than all of us do. They just do it with the same fucking tools that we do it with, you know? I did also like the thing you were talking about, though, is like one of the things I kind of love about Ableton and its lack of ability to do what Pro Tools does is is that thing that you like you're forced to just work with the palette there and see the process in stages. And I think so many people while it is nice, like I definitely love that these days I can get a better, rough mix than I ever could when I had an analog console in many ways. It's nice to have things in phases and focus on the phases at times. Did that play into the process in any other way? Not really for me, just more so, like if anything, I just grew like a deep appreciation for Ableton and like how talented Chad was with using it and being like, this is sick. Like I like watching you and your workflow on this, like keep it up. Like, let me know if I could help as opposed to like, fuck that program. That program sucks. Do you know what I mean? Like if anything, it's like, dude, I see how empowering and how cool it is for this and like how important it is for this entire process. You know what I mean? Like I became obsessed with the idea of Ableton and I want to learn more about it now. You know, Chad, was this the first record for you guys in Ableton? No, we wrote Rare Enable. Well, a mix of logic and Ableton. We switched kind of halfway through. I'd always use logic as a kid and well, not as a kid, I guess, like as a, you know, 17 to 22 or something. I use, I use logic and I know it was fine, but I don't know. Once I got the Ableton push and Ableton, it just everything just clicked for me as far as how to make the software work for me instead of me trying to find all of these different parameters and how to use them. Like Ableton just makes more sense to me. And when I actually took the time to learn it, I was like, oh, I can make, I can get what's in my head out way faster this way than with logic. And I think also, like in those times, I didn't realize how much, how important your sample folder was of like drums. I just didn't realize what you could really do with drums until I really got into Ableton and realized I could just drop these samples in here. But for some reason, I never clicked. I could have done that in logic, which also at that point, I'm just at that point, we were just using, like when we were writing a song, it would be like, and I wasn't doing a lot of the writing back. I would write a song every now and then for like hardcore version of hundredth, but it would be like superior drummer and like guitar rig and all fake shit until we went to the studio and played it. So it wasn't like we weren't doing the actual production of the album. But I think once I once I kind of learned Ableton and realized like some of the songs I was making for like my side stuff or remixes, just messing around, I realized, hey, I think I can make, I think we can make the entire album in Ableton and then basically get Sam to mix it because to me, like it's one of those things where like I'm happy with my mix, but I know it's only because I haven't heard a better version of it yet. Yes. So and also like I don't have some crazy mixed ear that's like, oh, well, the kick in the bait, like there's the low end is not the song can't be loud because there's too much low end or, you know, all the shit that Sam knows that I'm absolutely terrible at. So to me, I'm like, OK, well, I know, like I honestly don't think anyone else would have been OK with the record the way the way that we did it, except Sam, you know, it's like I knew I knew that he believed in the vision and I knew that he was willing to spend more time than anyone else to make sure that like the like my source audio wasn't going to get fucked with and changed. And then like and honestly, I even think even though he knew that, if we wouldn't have done it over Zoom, I think it would have taken like so many because because I think it was a feat. Like it almost seems like it just would have taken forever if if you would have actually got me to bounce drives and you would have mixed it, just what I think what was so fun about doing this in two is like, you know, because all I'm doing is sharing my screen and my audio with him. And so every single track that he has put fucking probably days, hours, weeks of fucking fucking with on his end, he can visually see that I'm actually caring about it, too. And like caring about its place in the mix and like and stuff like that. And like he like it would be fun because I do should like open a plugin and fuck with something and then he'd be like, actually, I think it sounded cooler before you even did that. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, cool. Well, let me just turn off that plugin real quick. Like awesome. Like he's mixing the record with me. You know what I mean? And like actually like getting to actually see every single process of the signal flow and is making sure that we are making the best moves as well, too. You know what I mean? Like even if I'm like not focusing on an aspect that he's hyper focused on, like all of a sudden he just be like, open up this thing. Yeah, maybe it's that like there's too much low cut on this. Like drop the low cut and like wet it up a little bit more. See what that does. You know, pull up that plugin that you had on that one. Paul, put up more little plate. You know, like it's it was fun. You know, yeah, I remember Sam, when you and I were texting at one point when you guys were getting to the other process and you said that, you know, Sam, you and I have obviously gone through it with people in our lives where the changes don't make the record better. They make it. Yes. And yeah, exactly. That different often then becomes worse. And you were saying the good compliment to Chad, which is that his changes actually did make it way better. Absolutely. Every single revision that he mentions is a relevant thing. And it's he has great ears. He knows what the fuck he's trying to do. You know, like he's not just being self fucking, you know, like a super fucking, you know, self deprecating or whatever. Being like, turn down my vocal. I don't want to hear it. It's like, no, dude. But yeah, he has valid fucking criticisms. And like the mix wouldn't be a half of what it is today. If Chad wasn't like so detailed and persistent about following through with revisions as well, too, you know, like they never were annoying. It wasn't like, oh, Chad always, he always wants more reverb on his voice. Oh, that guy. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like they're always they're really valid criticisms every single time. And like they actually make me feel like I'm doing better work. And I'm very appreciative of that. You know, dude, the funny, I just had a thought like we did these EPs with your boy, Livermore back in 2012 and 13th. And I remember he was like, we were leaving the studio one day and it was after like the second EP, he was mixing it. And at that point, we had never given mixed revisions on any of our albums before. It was like, you get what like, I think Paul Weissner makes the first one and Putney makes the second one. And we were just like, oh, yeah, sounds cool. So when he, Livermore, I went to the airport and Livermore sent me mix, mix one and he's like, hey, do you have any revisions? And I was just like, what do you mean? And he's like, he's like, he's like, does this sound good to you? And I was like, yeah, sounds great. And he goes, OK, cool, I'm going to print it. And that was the song. He did one mix on the songs, all four of them. And that was it. And then I didn't really understand. I honestly didn't understand like that. That was even an option just because our label was like before this, our label was just like, oh, yeah, sounds great. Cool. We're going to put it out. Like when we started with it, even on free, I don't remember having any mixed revisions on free. Do you remember there being mixed revisions? I remember you hitting me up. And that was what was so annoying. So free is the first record that we made together, which is basically like the last hardcore record 100th did. And what happened was Shapiro was my manager at the time and he double booked me. He double booked me for stories so far and 100th. So then when he realized it, he was like, oh, don't worry. We'll just have Sam track the 100th record and then we'll have this other guy that works for me, Paul Levitt, mix it. And so then as he was starting that, I was starting the third stories to far record, which is like my least favorite stories to far record I've ever done. Cause it was like so much like work. It was like, it was the fast cheap, like immediately. So as I'm in the middle of like making stories record as fast and as cheap as I possibly can. I remember like Chad hitting me up being like, dude, like, do you have any mixed revisions? Like we need your help on this dude. Like hit up Paul. Like, I'm like, dude, I'm so sorry. I'm like in the fucking weeds over here. Like I hell of want this to sound good too. Like fuck, let me get a touch for Paul. Yeah. So there was like a little back and forth and like Paul is super cool. Like I forgot that even happened. I forgot that he makes the record, honestly. Right. I think if anything, I think Blake was probably the one that fucking was interacting with Paul more than either of us. He was probably just like, make him sell like counterparts, dude. So is there any aspect to this record that was particularly interesting that would be good for the audience to hear about? Other than my dog and Sam's dog, just chilling the whole time. Yeah, BMS friends. Well, that helps the vibe of the record a lot. You know what's a weird thing? I've learned even recently is producing all these podcasts where the other people are the hosts that I've even learned it's just like records that if the vibe is not good with that, even the podcast starts to suck. It's really weird just the same way. Like we always all talk about it. It's like, yeah, the records you're having fun with. Well, the podcast you're not having fun with too. Or they start to go back. Yeah, it's so funny. I think of anything. I think it was for me. I mean, at least it's like the most unique record in terms of like, it's cool when people are like, dude, I fucking love that new hundredth man. Like you produce that. It's like, yeah, yeah. But like, I also have to give the disclaimer every time. Like, don't like, I'm riding in the van and Chad's the fucking driver on this one. You know what I mean? Like, and for me, it's like one of the first records that I got to do like that where like, I'm working with someone who has such a strong vision and like is also capable of doing so much of the heavy lifting themselves. You know what I mean? As opposed to being like, I know nothing. This is my idea. Sam helped me. You know what I mean? So I found that like super fun and inspiring to be involved in because it empowered me to figure out how to help, you know what I mean? And like where I was of benefit as opposed to like, I have to hold all the fucking weight of this and I have to do all the engineering, all the editing, all the mixing, all the fucking, you know, it's like, it was so cool to like have a lot less to do with this and to be so proud of being involved in this record. Like I love listening to the record. I'd fucking like, it's a record that I actually enjoy. And I'm passionate about telling people to check out, you know, as opposed to like, I'm passionate about it because I work so hard on it and like, it means a lot to me. It's like, no, like these songs are fucking sick. They were like stuck in my head for fucking days. I had days of my life where I couldn't stop listening to certain songs in there. Like this record is sick. It's so fucking cool that I got to be involved in making a record sound like that, you know? And also like, well, I hung up with like Ryan from the stories of Father Drummer, who's a great guy by the way. But he was, he was like, you know, I really like all that Hunter stuff. And he goes, it's definitely the most modern sounding record you've ever made. And I was like, that's very true. And I, that's actually kind of the records I want to be involved in these days is some modern shit, as opposed to like, oh, I remember when like, Pop Punk was cool back in like 2000, you know what I mean? But now, like, this feels current. This feels cool today, you know what I mean? Pop Punk is cool again, thanks to machine gun, M.G.K., that was something. No big deal. Oh boy, congrats, Dan. Number one. Nice. Okay. So if that's it on, we'll discuss the record. I'd be reluctant to not talk a little bit about the merch with you, Chad. How did you guys get to the place of doing this more, what's called elevated, not just your, we're selling T-shirts, coffee mugs, and hats and hoodies type thing? Honestly, because I'm really shitty, or I used to be really shitty at Photoshop. So, and we were very poor. Unique, that's a unique answer. Because you're actually so good at Photoshop. Well, no, I'm still not, but I can do more things than I used to could when I was 19. But yeah, I was telling someone this the other day, but basically there was like a point in the band where we were touring all the time, and we had like, I mean, it's every band in the world has experiences. We had like absolutely zero money at all. None of us had jobs, none of us had anything. So basically we were paying ourselves like $2 a day. That was our per diem. And we would go to like the Taco Bell and play that little game. We would buy a taco and then play that little game on the counter with the water in there. And you had to like land the coins on the thing and you got free shit. So we basically became like really, really good at that. And that was like how we survived for a long time. And then we kind of realized like, okay, we're still getting paid, like a couple of years in, we're still getting paid like $150 sucking shit on touring with bands that we don't enjoy listening to. So how do we do something to not, to make more money? And then we're like, well, our label gets a percentage of everything. So the only thing we can really do is make our merch better. So that was basically the starting point. And I was like, well, I also think we need to have like a logo, which at that point, like now every fucking band in the world has a logo, even if they don't even have a song. But at that point, like it actually, it's weird to think about, but that was actually a thing. Like no, logo bands didn't really have like an icon or like they had like a font or whatever they use, but like an actual icon to represent the band or brand, what wasn't a thing. So I randomly came up with- I actually couldn't name a band that hasn't a logo even today. Like I think that's a great point. I think you got like, doesn't Foo Fighters have some like FF thing? The F's, yeah, that's a good, dark side of the moon would be the one, like, you know what I mean for a pink Floyd, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can argue the 1975 with the square and that thing and- Behind you, the misfits and this goal too. It's so rare when it really is like one of those things- It's well executed. Yeah, it's like one of those things, once you have that, you can iterate off of it in so many ways. It can become the stage, set the videos, it makes so many decisions, so much easier. Yeah, for real. So I mean, I feel like we kind of, we just kind of stumbled into that idea in that whole thing. And we also like weren't really wearing a bunch of band shirts and stuff. Like all of us were just wearing like plain colored T-shirts at the time. So it almost made more sense to like make something that we would want to wear that didn't have like a hundredth all over it or like have like some like crazy like 10 color front where like somebody's ripping someone's head off their body while they're on like a magic school bus or something. Like insane. So, and I could never have made that and we didn't have any money to hire anyone to make that for us. So basically we just simplified everything and we tried to make it like as minimal as possible and sell the garment instead of the design to offset the costs. We were like, okay, let's get, let's print on nicer stuff because no one is doing it. Let's figure out a way, which we had a manager at the time who is really good at sourcing things overseas. So that's how we like kind of started was printing on really nice hoodies, windbreakers, things that bands weren't wouldn't really do. And we would try to drop it in like a make it all look cohesive on when you're like setting it up on a tour. Merch display. So that was kind of how, and then we did a ton of hats like over the years. It was really hard to source hats. Bands couldn't figure out how to do it. And obviously, you know, it's like, you don't talk to me and Sam. We're talking about this the other day. Like people who you don't even talk to would just come up to you like asking me like, hey, how do you make your shorts? We want to make some just like it or how do you make your hats? We want to make some just like it. I was like, dude, it took me years to figure out how to do this shit on my own. Like I'm not just going to give it to you. Plus if we were homies, of course, but really, really you like talk shit about me and then ask me for, ask me for fucking tips on your merch. So, you know, it's all stupid. But yeah, I mean, I think like we basically shifted focus from like a bunch of colors on a design to single color on a nice garment and try to take good photos of it because no one was really taking really good photos of it. It was all like digital mocks. So I mean, really it was all born out of like, if we want to keep doing this band, we have to figure out a way to pay the bills and a way that all of us can survive. So we were like, well, the only thing we can control contractually is our merch. So that's, and we were like, we just have to make it better. And we have to like look at brands like Huff and Supreme and you know, whatever, whatever like the hundreds, like we just try to do whatever we could to like at the time make it look like our shirt could be in Paxon and no one would like look twice. Now I don't even know if Paxon is a thing anymore. I think there's two important aspects about this though too. I think like number one is what, the first thing that like they did really well, which a lot of people don't really, you know, even understand, but it's like kind of the most basic thing is fitting the media to the media. You know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, like I remember, I think it was Parker from Stories of Horror once said this, who was like, the only way that we make money is by selling shirts. We're essentially a touring t-shirt company. That's what we are. And so like Chad clearly had like a recognition of that as a thing and was like, okay, well, if we're a merchandise company, why don't we make more merchandise? And then the other important like lesson in there too is the, you know, you basically just use who you are and be who you are as your inspiration at all times. You know what I mean? What would I want to wear? What would I want to actually put on my clothes? Like why don't I make that? And then if I want to do that, I think other people will want that as well too. You know what I mean? Like it's funny how those are like two kind of like almost like painfully obvious things that are actually like not really obvious. You know what I mean? Like you have to be pretty smart to get that, you know? Also like we got burned for it all the time, but we would legitimately, like if a shirt wasn't selling, I would say, Andrew, wear the shirt on stage. Like we got no, and we got clowned on for it, but like in the end, everyone else started doing it too was like, I would just wear the merch on stage. I would just be like, okay, cool. We just got these hoodies. I'm wearing one on stage. And it was like, I don't even care if this is corny. I don't, I want a clean hoodie. And I don't have, I'm not going to go buy one because I'm broke as fuck. So this is cheap. I'm going to wear this. And I can wear, I can get a new one every couple of days. And I've designed it to be something I want to wear anyways. And I can sell it after I wear it on the, not tell anyone. So it was basically just like, like, and so we got made fun of so much. Like is this a band? Is this a clothing brand? And the whole time we were all just like, honestly, I'm just happy people are think that it's a clothing brand. But yeah, it is. Who cares? Before this, like, you know, 10 years ago with Man Over Board when we had that defend pop punk shirt get so big. Yes. It was like, all we heard was like, you know, it'd be like fucked up and be like, my friends, the men'singers, like good friends of mine, like tweeting out shit, like, oh God, the fucking clothing brand to defend pop punk band. And you're like, all right, but you know, we're making, they actually can pay their bills right now. Yeah, yeah. So what I'd be curious about though, is like one of the other things I saw people say is that like, there's people buying it that don't even know about the band. Have you found that? And have like people found the band through the clothing line? It's been a long time since I've seen something like that. Yeah, I think so for sure. Like, especially we're like in maybe 2013 or 14 when we had like these hoodies that were like had like different color sleeves as the, it was like a raglan hoodie. We had to have sold those to people online that like just happened to see it on like a Facebook ad or something. But I mean, I think if anything it has been like a job board on the street. To me, I would never even be mad about that because like, even if you're not a fan of the band, like you can be a fan of the band and not financially support us. And that's fine. If you're just like a casual listener, but if this person supported us and doesn't even know that it's a band, I'm equally as thankful for that. I'm 100% with you. And I think like the other thing we have to remember is like, all these people are criticizing it, don't actually look at what it's like to look in our fucking wallets about how badly we're compensated we are for being a big part of your life. Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, cool. Yeah, you have something to say about it? I would love for you to actually think about what I have to do to make you happy all the time. I was just gonna say, the majority of people talking shit were just other bands who just like didn't think of it first. Yes, that's definitely usually the case. Yeah, they're all jealous. I was gonna say to Jesse, it's like Cutie, is Cutie a pop star or is she a fucking energy drink? You know what I mean? I don't know. But I'll fucking support both, dude, because I'm really tight, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. What do you think about the Jonesy record, by the way? Both of you guys, have you listened to it? Oh, I love that record, yeah. I thought it was amazing. Yeah, I don't know that it's gonna be a long-term listen. Yeah, it's definitely art. Yeah, like, but- I get bored. I'm getting bored. Yeah, it's not songs, it's more art. I get it, but it's got a lot of cool sounds on there, you know? I'll say this, I think I'll be listening to the Robin song for a long time. Mm-hmm, that's a great song. But to me, that record's a good, hanging with the girl, chill out record to have on the background. I don't know that I'm gonna be doing that for a year, but it was good the first three times. My wife kills me if I put on A.G. Cook. I think Chad's wife hates it too. My girlfriend worked with all those people and she kills me when I put it on too. So it's like- Because that's funny. She's like, no, no, no more of your little child. Have you guys heard Glaive or Alden? Yes, yes, yes. She literally wants to murder me when I put that shit on. And she's like, you're not 23, you're 42. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it, I get it. I get texts from the other room that are like, are you okay? No. Checking on my sanity. Well, the thing is, it's our jobs to get inspired. And- But I get the same texts like yesterday when I just decided to listen to Breaking Benjamin for like an hour at an excruciating volume. What are you doing? Or Red Hot Chili Pepper is right before this interview. What's up, dude? I fucking love the RHCP, dude. Straight up. That's a bridge I can't cross. God's among men. When you guys were setting the shifty shell shock though and I was reminded of, he used to be my best friend's neighbor here. Oh, God. One time he was like, bitch into us about it. His girl takes forever and she's all late. I'm like, well, you just say, come my lady. Come, come my lady. He looked at me like- That's a good one. The most disappointed look anyone's ever given. Like, oh, fuck you, dude. Sorry, guys. You know, always down to club. I love it. All right, well, this was fucking fun. I'm going to hit stop. 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