 Hello and welcome to Stand Energy Man here on the Think Tech Hawaii for Community Matters. And we've got a great show today where we're busy here in Hawaii getting through the first part of the legislative session where all the bills get seen by committees and we get to talk and do testimony and let the public give testimony and let them come out about how they feel on certain bills. And today we have with us as a guest, Nicole Lohan, representative of Nicole Lohan, who is the chair of the House Environmental and I mean, excuse me, Energy and Environmental Protection Committee. So she's been up to her ears and listening to testimony at her hearings and stuff on all the energy bills and welcome to the show. Thank you. Glad you could make some time. I know how busy you are. It has been busy. Yeah. I really appreciate you taking some time out this week. It's a busy time. When's crossover happened, by the way? Either a couple of weeks or the next the week after next on Tuesday, I believe. Okay. So it's coming up pretty quick here. And do you have a lot more bills to review this next between now and then or are they pretty most of them pretty much through the system? All the bills referred to eat that we are planning to hear have been moved out already. Okay. Well, anyway, let the audience know a little bit about yourself. You know, how long you've lived here and why did you grow up here and what got you into getting into public service and working as a legislator and being an elected official? Sure. So I'll start off, I guess I always like to joke if I had any idea what I was getting into, I never would have done this. So I moved to Hawaii in 1996. My sister was living out here. I was, you know, recently out of college. I thought I'd come over here and visit and then I never left. I was actually born in Washington, D.C., but my father was in the foreign service. So we moved away when I was one year old and then I grew up overseas. My whole childhood until I was 15. What part of the world did you grow up in? In Europe, different countries. So we actually lived in Paris and Brussels, but then also Belgrade, Yugoslavia and East Berlin when those were behind the Iron Curtain. They did East Berlin. It was behind the Iron Curtain. We were there in the 70s, early 80s maybe. Wow. Yeah. So you came to Hawaii and never left, huh? Came to Hawaii and never left and never thought about getting involved in politics. But you know, I represent Kailua Kona on the Big Island and, you know, lived there for many years, but eventually I moved over to Oahu for a few years for graduate school and studied urban planning. And then I ended up working at the legislature for a representative, Jenny Kaufman, who actually used to represent part of the same area that I now represent and also was chair of the Energy Committee then. And then in 2012, which was a redistricting year, I ended up running for office. So did you pick up any foreign languages when you were living in Europe, growing up there? They're very rusty now. I mean, I used to speak French fluently, but yeah. I need some professors now, I think, and then just phrases in other languages and Spanish, but I learned that later. Okay. Well, that's a neat background. I have my master's in international relations, which is weird because everybody else has an MBA and have international relations. But anyway, energy stuff. What kind of bills are going through the legislature that your committees listened to this year that seemed to be resonating and maybe can give us some, what are they called, handicapping on which ones they'll get through crossover and make it, maybe even get voted on. And what's your impression of the general bills coming through? Do they all look pretty strong or are some looking better than others and which ones seem to be getting traction? Right. Well, of course, you can never provide any guarantees. That's a fact. And I would be hesitant to do that. But a few that we're looking at, I think, include a carbon tax study. So carbon tax, this is not directly in the weeds of energy policy, I guess, but when we're talking about energy and climate and renewables and all of that. It's an incentive or a disincentive for fossil fuels. So that's moving. And I think that's important. I mean, we probably passed too many bills for studies on the whole, but in this case, I think a study which shouldn't take too long because the data is available, but we're doing some kind of study before just bowing ahead and imposing something is important. So there's that. We have a bill that's kind of come back year after year, which looks at fixing the formula that determines the RPS. But I included in that, we'll see if that part of it stays alive, but actually accelerating the interim benchmarks for 2030 and 2040 to move those forward to achieve higher percent of renewables by those states. We have some bills for efficiency to improve efficiency efforts and establish some appliance efficiency standards. There's some bills talking about micro grids and resilience, which I think is an important piece going forward as we build this new grid to think about those things. Let's take off of that one a little bit. I know Hawaiian Electric, we'll work a little bit with Hawaiian Electric in my office because we have to interconnect on HICM through NavFAC and Hawaiian Electric, get all our stuff approved, interconnect agreements. And it seems like Hawaiian Electric is really kind of sold on batteries for energy storage and we do hydrogen a lot for energy storage and vehicles and on the grid, but it seems like they haven't really come up with a novel design of how the future is going to look and the resiliency piece to me means micro grids and probably islandable micro grids for communities so they can bring themselves up first before we interconnect everybody back together. You kind of see that, are you seeing any big strategic plan by HECO to really look at what the grid's going to have to change into? My impression is they kind of feel like they have a grid and they'll have to work within what they have, not so much they have to redesign their grid and go forward. Are you getting that same impression or do we have anything moving on to that? I will say, I mean I can't speak for Hawaiian Electric, but I know that when we have bills that deal with micro grids, I have seen a lot of pushback. And I agree with you that we need to look at micro grids and these compartmentalizing segments of the grid and we can look at Puerto Rico and see what they're doing and think about the benefits of doing something similar here. So yeah, I'd like to work on legislation to encourage that moving forward. Whether it's more of an upfront expense, at some point the infrastructure piece, there's going to be some investment needed and improving it one way or the other. And so I think that the discussion, a lot of times I get the question like how are we going to achieve this RPS, Hawaii established, or 100% goal now, how are we going to get there? And I think the discussion should be more, how can we get there faster and do it in a way that's thinking about the long term and about resilience. For example, we work a lot with the national labs as well. And he goes kind of at a saturation point, at least in certain areas, where they can't really take a whole lot more intermittent renewable like solar or wind because it destabilizes their grid too much as it's structured right now. But we know that to get to 100% renewable, a bunch of that's going to be intermittent renewable. And they're struggling right now at a 20, 22% point of saturation, what are they going to do when they get to 40 or 50? When the national lab studies say you get to 40 or 50, nobody's done that before. It's too destabilizing. How are you going to solve the problem? And that's where energy storage comes in. And storing energy gives you more base load, so it's not intermittent anymore. So taking that solar and wind and putting it into storage to stabilize and give you a base load at night helps them out. But we just don't see them moving that fast in that direction. And again, I agree that islanding and having isolated microgrids that can connect is really critical. And I kind of hope that HECO's business model shifts more towards not like saying, we're going to fire all our linemen because we're not doing a network like we have, but changing their job to be more of a residential support where they're doing the same kind of work, but in a residential area instead of the big long haul, high voltage lines and stuff. Moving more in that direction. Yeah, I agree. And it seems like they're still pretty, you know, they're used to and attached to the idea of being the generator and distributor and having a lot of control over everything. Which is normal. I mean, they're a monopoly. That's why PUC regulates them. So the community has some control over their activities. But that's there they are. They're a big monopoly. And I mean, what's old saying, power corruption. Like they like having control and they want everybody else to change to meet their model because that's natural. It's human nature to want to, you know, why should I adjust? Why don't you adjust to me? And I think they kind of have that. They got to get over that. Something that might help going forward is, you know, the performance based rate making docket is ongoing. And I think, you know, when that moves forward and they come up with some way of implementing it, it will provide incentives for the utility to be rewarded for things like resilience and distributed generation. And all of those things that we're talking about now. I mean, and it's understandable. I mean, they are a public-attracted company. They have stakeholders they're responsible to. They're not going to take unnecessary risks. Exactly. And they're also mandated by law not to do that, I guess also. So yeah, they've talked to us quite a few times about that like rule 14 stuff where they they'd like to help out, but they're mandated. They can only do so much. So we watch that. Another thing that you kind of hit on one of the bills was trying to accelerate not just the grid, but a renewable portfolio standard for vehicles and others on the energy side for vehicles. I know Blue Planet pushes really hard and we all want to have electric vehicles by five years from now. And it's just not going to happen because the manufacturers can't even, you know, do that. And a lot of what they do, and I came up in some testimony at one of your committees was even the rental car companies are doing my customer demand. So unless everybody wants electric cars or hydrogen cars or whatever, the dealers are going to react to customer demand or rental car company customer demand before they'll just take their time and move into it as the demand is there. And so, you know, I thought that the bill going through that I was there to testify was the getting the rental car companies and putting a kind of a year by year, 20% here, 30% there, 50% here, 100% by 2035 or something. I thought that was actually a really good way to kind of get into it because the one reason there's probably no demand at the rental car companies right now for electric vehicles is the infrastructure is still kind of thin. And so nobody's going to want to come to a strange place they don't know in the beginning to visit and then rent a car and not know where to charge it and not be familiar with it so the demand is not going to be there. But I think if people knew that they could get a good deal on an electric car and that the rental car company showed them where to charge it and stuff, that the demand would probably be there. And I think that would be a good way to kind of test bed the customer demand side before the private sector goes full bore into trying to get them 25, 50, 75, 100% over the next few years. Is that kind of the view of your committee when you looked at that bill too? Or what are some of the things you were thinking about? We didn't get a hearing for our bill, so it might have been a Senate bill. Yeah, I think it was a Senate bill. Yeah, I mean, I think of course we have to talk about our transportation fuel issues. It's like two-thirds of the oil we import and transition to renewables and electric vehicles are going to be a huge part of that. Hydrogen vehicles that we discussed earlier are another option, but I think at some point there's kind of like you pick a path and go that route and it seems like electric vehicles are already pretty far ahead in the market. And so that looks like the route we're taking at least for individual ownership. But I think charging station infrastructure is the number one thing that government can help incentivize to expand the amount of electric vehicles in Hawaii and move that forward. I thought I saw a bill going through that talked about workplace charging and parking lot charging, where they were going to mandate more electric chargers by the state, actually by state departments and some of the private sector. I know the bill that moved out of my committee was creating a rebate program for electric vehicle charging station, so it was more from an incentive standpoint. And it was focused, the way that we passed it was focused on workplaces and multi-unit dwellings and commercial locations that would be open to the public or people to use in general. Right, well, we have a midpoint of our show here. We're going to take a quick break and look at some of the other think tech shows that are on. And then we'll be back with Representative Lohan and talk a little bit more about energy. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. My show is based on my book, also titled Beyond the Lines. And it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership, and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports, and life, which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 AM. Aloha. Aloha. I'm Wendy Lo, and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at 2 o'clock live from Think Tech Hawaii. And on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body, and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're going to be talking about, whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. Hey, Aloha, and welcome back to Stand the Energy Man on my lunch hour once again. I like to always bring that up, especially when I have a state representative here, keeping track of my time, so I'm not on the state's bill when I'm here on the show. And my overpaid salary here at Think Tech is zero, so we're pretty clean all the way across the board. Anyway, Replo and thanks for being on the show again. And we were talking a little bit about the transportation side and trying to get more incentives to get infrastructure up for electric vehicles. And you mentioned, too, that at know-how, on the big end, they have a hydrogen station, Mitch Ewen from UH, has got a nice hydrogen station being put there. In fact, we've got some folks working on something in parallel, you won't be involved in this right away, but you will be at some point with the Helion bus. And Mitch has a bus dedicated to Helion that's hydrogen fuel cell powered already, a 25 passenger. We're looking at expanding that as a public-private partnership with some other folks. I'm on a committee helping them work that. And so we're looking at maybe doing a lot of hydrogen vehicle work on the Big Island, because the distances and the hills, the mountains that the transportation has to traverse are more suitable to hydrogen than just pure plug-in electric. So we're doing some of that. But what are some of the ways that, you know, as a lean forward, you know, looking at the future that we can incentivize, besides carbon credits and things, how do you think we can help incentivize more, especially state fleet purchases and the state infrastructure like plug-in charging and maybe even a couple of hydrogen stations? How do we get those things from like the hydrogen station zero to moving and on the plug-in electric charging stations from where they're at to a little bit farther down the road? And so the state can be kind of the leader of the way and a lot more electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles in their system and their fleets. You know, what can the legislature do? I know funding is always an issue. And appropriating funding for that is always a challenge, because there's a lot of people all buying for the same pot of money. But what are some of the ideas that the committee has on trying to get there? All right. That was a lot of things that went unwrapped. So hydrogen on Big Island will start there. Yeah, I think it's a really positive discussion. And hydrogen can be particularly useful somewhere that you have a lot of excess solar during the day. It's basically like a way to store it. And it's great for our county fleets. I think that's what they're talking about using the station they're putting down at Nelha using that hydrogen for the county fleet, which brings up something before I move on to the second part of your question that I wanted to mention earlier when we talk about transportation is that the solution to this issue also can't be based on just replacing every car that's on the road with an electric car or a hydrogen car. And I think we don't have enough discussion or push for understanding of how important public transit is in this equation. And it's difficult, too, because that is pretty clearly a county responsibility and obligation. So we have to be careful, I think, at the state legislature of mandating things without giving additional funding, et cetera. But that is a county responsibility. And Big Island in particular is pretty far behind in terms of what they offer in public transit. And I would just point out transit has multiple benefits. It's not just that we're reducing carbon. I mean, it's just it's better for the way that we develop residentially. And I know in the Big Islands, it's important because a lot of the people that work in Waikoloa and the hotels and stuff live in Hilo. And the helion bus and that public transportation is not only a good idea because it keeps cars off the road, which is one big thing. But when you're commuting two and a half, three hours a day, that's wasted time when you're sitting there focused on the wheel and trying not to get in ahead on collision, where you could be listening to books on tape, getting a master's degree, learn. I mean, their time is valuable, too. So I agree that, especially on the big island, public transportation should be a real focus. And the county also has limited funds. They've got a lot to do over there. But that's why I say we're actually looking to the private sector and trying to get private investors to help the county expand that transportation over there. So I'll fill you in more on that when it matures, but we're still at a pretty low level entry point of that, but you're right. And there's mode shift, too. You see all the beaky bikes and other bikes that are showing up in town. I used to ride my bike in town all the time until I got stolen. I had my bike stolen, too. But the idea of trying to live, work, play, and the building communities that are more efficient and getting cars off the road, vehicle mile travel, take care of that, get more cars off the road. And a lot of people do these long commutes because they can't afford to live where the jobs are, especially on big island people commuting from Hilo or Puna or Ocean View. So that being the way it is, is part of what makes me hesitant, like when you talk about a carbon tax or a gas tax as a way to incentivize a shift to renewables, you have to also think about on the other side the impact it has on people who can least afford it and have really no choice but to drive these long distances. So transit helps solve a number of those issues and it can also help reduce the cost of housing, which is so expensive here, by allowing for greater density. And I think a lot of people, and I think it's a misperception that public transportation should be a break-even thing. For me, public transportation is always lose money, but it's taking care of the community. It's got another role. No, we don't prioritize, I mean, I think part of this comes maybe from as we talked earlier, growing up overseas. Just the US is very much built for cars and so, yeah, our roads aren't break-even situation at all. So, but somehow transit is supposed to pay for itself, even though it's more efficient and less costly, if you get enough people to use it per, I guess when you calculate that with all the various outcomes it leads to. Well, we'll get there. I think, I wish we could somehow find the funding to really help the counties out and those kinds of transit. Now, I'm not even gonna get into heart, that's a whole different, that scares me that that's another county thing that has kind of gotten out of control and we wouldn't even go down that road, but that's public transportation. I think the way a lot of communities, including in California, there's several communities that are now counseling their rail programs because they're just finding out that they're way too expensive, but there's gotta be ways we can do public transportation. Yeah, and I think part of the lesson learned there is that if you build it before you desperately need it and plan ahead, then it's not as costly. You could do some talk about, I mean, this is not something anyone's talking about and not something I'm proposing, but just for example, hypothetically, if you talked about doing some kind of train or rail or something like that on Big Island, it would be a lot easier to cite it and figure out where to go and how it should run when you're not trying to fit it in between really, really dense urban development. Exactly, okay. Well, you're gonna talk about something else, I asked a whole bunch of rapid fire questions. Sure, the second, I think you asked, how do we find the funding to, how do we push forward those incentives for expanding electric vehicle infrastructure and hydrogen? So one idea, or one thing I've been thinking about is we have a fair amount of revenue from the barrel tax right now and some of that goes back to the general funds and then some goes to, you know, Department of Ag and Department of Health, Department of, yeah, it gets split up and including Hawaii State Energy Office, HNEI. And there's not a ton of oversight for a lot of those funds on how they're used. I mean, I think they go to some good projects, but it's also like not implementing a vision, it's kind of piecemeal, it's just money that's available and. That's a good point. As far as I think what, like for example, what's under Department of Ag, for a debat, it funds the Hawaii State Energy Office, but you could make the argument that for permanent positions, we want to be doing permanent work, we should be funding them with general funds and this source of, you know, what's basically diminishing revenue, there would be a really good nexus to look at shifting that and using it for things like electric vehicle incentives or to capitalize the gems fund, the low interest loans for energy efficiency and things like rooftop PV, which is mandated to be, I think, at least 50% or more for low income. That I think there would be an interesting nexus to look at figuring out a way to shift some of those funds and using them for those kind of incentives. Yeah, we talked with Gwen from the GEM program quite a bit and I think we're gonna be working with her a lot too to try and figure out how some of the hydrogen stuff can be, take advantage of her program too and I think some of the bills and legislation that's getting through the system expands their ability to kind of expand what they can use their program for and makes it a little bit better for putting in infrastructure for vehicles and things like that and I'm really supportive of all that because I agree with you. I think that the barrel tax money, it basically gets divided in four pieces and then the fifth piece goes back in the general fund but once it gets divided out, there's really not a whole lot of oversight over it and I agree, I always think of laws as there's gotta be an intent to the law, there's some reason that it was written and I think that gets lost when you do that divide and spread it out and unless it's really clear or re-emphasized or you put in a new law that says you gotta do this more specifically, I think you're right. For example, there's the part that goes to Department of Ag and it's like the food security, it's a longer title because it's more than one thing but part of it is food security special fund and I think that funding gets sort of meet it out in grants here and there, it's a place to find extra money to fund this program or that program and generally it's a worthwhile thing but there's also like there's not an overarching vision or plan so it's not clear that it's being used in the best possible way. Okay. Well, we've got about 60 seconds left and I'd like to just leave you with 60 seconds to talk about anything that we missed on this or you don't have anything, I'll keep asking. No, I mean, I think, this is my first year chairing this committee and it's an exciting opportunity and I still have a lot to learn. You still tap into Chris Leal once in a while to get some bouncing things off of him from time to time. Time to time. Yeah, okay. Well, do you have any interface with the UPUC at all or you have to keep arms length from them for legal reasons? No, I mean, when we have legislation we're proposing that would affect them or they're involved with and, you know, they're always willing to have the discussion and help us work on drafts and things like that but, you know, as far as their open dockets go and et cetera, they have, you know, they can't divulge things ahead of time so. Well, I want to thank you again for being on the show today. I told you it'd be a quick 30 minutes and I think it was pretty quick and thanks for your participation today. Thanks for serving the legislature. Like you say, I'm 65 years old and I know that I don't want to be a legislator or a politician of any kind because it's a blood sport and I have 35 years of military background and I don't need to get into a tougher battle than I've already been in. So thanks for being there and serving and doing what you do because I know it's a lot of work and a lot of frustration, a lot of personal energy that goes into it so thanks a lot. And we'll try and get you back on sometime in the future but for now, that's it for Stanley Energy Man this Friday and we'll see you next week. I think we've got Ben Sullivan from Kauai coming in. I'm not sure but I'll double check but always good talking to the neighbor islands and we'll see you next week Friday on Stanley Energy Man, aloha.