 Welcome folks, this is Friday, April 30th, we're on the starting to wind up our legislative session for this this year of 2021. We're going to spend a little bit of time this morning, continuing our conversation about the space needs within the State House for hopefully bringing the legislative branch back to the State House come January this next session. We had the report yesterday we went through pretty much in depth with just just sit back on Freeman French Freeman to go through the mid middle term and long term approach or medium term. Today we have bgs with us to talk about the implications of that report. Does the timeframe for possibly some of those items getting done so that we have a better feel of what would be achievable between now and January to really get the legislature back in the building. So, I would like to turn it over at this point to Commissioner Fitch of bgs to start us off and then we'll go from there. Commissioner welcome. Thank you madam chair and thank you to the committee members for having bgs in today for the record my name is Jennifer Fitch. My name is Jennifer Fitch and I'm the director of design and construction and you will hear from them likely today as well. One of the things that I want to start off with is that I always appreciate and value the partnership that we've had with this committee, as well as Senate institutions, and all the knowledge that you bring, as well as the committee supporting each other's outcomes and goals. And so with that, we, we want to let you know that we value and appreciate the work and the effort that Freeman French Freeman put into the medium and long term space assessment. As noted in the report Freeman French Freeman has also provided some other space studies for you over the past two years. I will be talking about one of those in a minute. And one of the issues of the medium term space solutions that Freeman French Freeman has provided, which does entail taking down walls and rebuilding walls to make larger committee rooms. We at bgs agree with Freeman French Freeman that that is a very aggressive timeline and we don't have the ability at bgs to meet that timeline. Joe will go into a lot more greater detail on that and provide the details on why. We are unable to meet that schedule. That being the case, we have reviewed the Freeman French Freeman reports, and we do believe that there are some other options that they have presented that definitely could be implemented prior to the, to the next legislative session. And that includes, you know, reusing spaces that you already have that are larger, right and converting those into committee rooms and, and we'll talk about that here in a minute. So, so we do appreciate and value that report we think Freeman French Freeman offered a lot of great options. So the timeline for the medium option of taking down walls and rebuilding is, is we agree it's aggressive, and we agree we cannot meet that timeline before the 22 session. And that's because there's things like which Joe will get into a PC, fire alarm electrical a review historic preservation review, as well as fire safety review. So and again he'll go into, he'll go into those details. As I said, we have continued to work collaboratively with the legislative branch to provide other spaces that you may be able to utilize. So a little bit back in the, in the time back machine. So about a year ago, Freeman French Freeman was hired to do a, basically a COVID-19 health and safety assessment to determine viable spaces in the central Vermont area that could be converted into committee rooms. That report came back to the legislature, and the legislature said, you know what, we want to be in the complex, we really don't want to be spread all over the central Vermont area. We heard you loud and clear. Again our goal is to support successful outcomes for the legislature. So we worked really collaboratively with Freeman French Freeman, as well as Catherine venom and some other folks in the legislature who identify other viable spaces in the capital complex that had not been previously identified by Freeman French Freeman. And in doing so, we were able to identify several spaces that were fit up for socially distanced meeting rooms. We have four physically distanced meeting rooms in the basement of 133 that have been fit up. And we also have three physically distanced committee spaces or meeting rooms depending on how you'd like to use them in the community between 109 and 111. Fit up involved carpet and paint, some minor HVAC, and they are sitting there and they are ready to be used by the legislature, whenever you would like to use them. As we know right most of us are the legislature is working remotely and mostly executive branch is working remotely as well. So those spaces haven't been used this year, but they are fit up, and they are available to you in the next session. And so we want to make sure that we provide those spaces to you, or whatever use you may like to use them for but I just wanted the committee to know that we do have seven meeting rooms set up in the basement of 133 and the connector of 109 and 111, which depending on how you want to utilize those spaces, right, allows you to alleviate some space and some pressure within the State House. And if we can alleviate some pressure within the State House that allows you to start thinking about how can you use existing rooms that you already have. For example, the legislative lounge or rooms 10 or 9 or 11, for example. So, so just so you know you do have other spaces already been fit up for you and you are welcome to use it whenever you'd like to use it and however you'd like to use it. So when the space was identified for exclusive use by the legislature at the time. We didn't know, we didn't know what spaces were viable there was a lot of things going on. And so what happened was the legislature basically took exclusive use of every single vacant space within the complex. And in doing so, unfortunately, prevented us from continuing to do our modernization, where we want to optimize and consolidate space within the capital complex, which would save $2 million over 10 years, and about $1.2 million and proceeds for the sale of the Baldwin's. We put draft language into the bill this year and the governor's proposed recommend was to to continue to support the legislature in allowing them to use the spaces right that had been fit up. We also like to recover space that's not currently being used by the legislature because after all that space was was taken through the general fund bill. And we had time to thoroughly vet it, we recognize that some of those spaces weren't good options for the legislature. And now we have space that we can't do anything with that nobody else is using, because it's all under the exclusive use of the legislature, which now prevents us from being able to continue to do our space optimization and modernization project. So, where we are today is we want to continue to work with the legislature. And we want to continue to provide spaces so that you could all come back in person. That's my number one goal of bgs. It's in our mission to provide spaces for positive programmatic outcomes. And I recognize and we want to support the legislature and coming back to in person committee sessions in fact, last night I was talking to a couple of folks from the state house and I said, I wish I was there right this is my first year as a commissioner. It would be so much better if I was able to meet with you all in person, right and make those relationships and get to know you all personally and that's what I want to do. I'm just as invested in bringing you all back to the state house hopefully as as you are. And as part of all that, we recognize that the legislature does need more space. And one of the things that we've talked about, and a conversation that we've been having is bgs has reassessed our space plan. We believe, or we know that the legislature could take occupancy of two weekend, which would provide you 36 conceptually would provide you with 36 offices or workstations, as well as the space that I'm in right now, which is a large is the dining room, but it's a large room that would be converted if you chose to into a meeting space as well. It's the closest space to the state house that I can provide to the legislature, and it would allow you to alleviate some of that pressure that you have within the state house. And so I want to offer that I will tell you, Madam chair and I have talked about this bgs has been into a can for 35 to 40 years it's become part of who we are. And so, I just want to say that and that I'm putting the needs of the legislature. One of my staff who probably wouldn't be too happy to hear that I've offered up to a can for the legislature, the legislature is welcome to occupy to a can for as long as they like where they need. And, you know, if the renovation from the state house happens, and you want to pull all those people back into the state house more than welcome. And at that time we would find another occupant for two weekend. And I want you to know that I hear you loud and clear, you need some permanent space, and happy to provide to a can to do that. Now that means I need a home to go to, because if I leave this space, I got to go somewhere else right. And when we reassess the space plan, we recognize that bgs would fit well on the fifth floor of 133. So I'm in basically five or different spaces, six spaces within the complex. So for me, for my programmatic outcomes, I get to bring all of my folks under one roof, and we'll be far more efficient than what we are today because we'll be working together, all under one roof. So, all of this is to say, we have space that's been fit up for you. We want you to continue to be able to use that on a temporary basis for whatever you'd like to use it for. And we'd like to offer to awaken to the legislature to alleviate some of that pressure in the state house. And in doing so, we would like to be able to occupy and get use of the fifth floor 133 so you guys can move in here. And we would also like to continue that conversation about our ability to sell the bald ones. I know there's been concern about is there enough space for everybody in the complex. I can assure you that there is. In fact, we've already looked at the first floor server room of 133. There is $700,000 and a prior capital bill for fit up. Originally, the agency of digital services was going to go there, but they have since moved out of the capital complex leaving that space available. The nice thing about that space is that it has a generator to the building, which is great for a server. And it's large enough to put in lots of workstations in there as well. So again, it alleviates some of that staff space within the state house. That's how you would like to use it. So again, we're trying to find a way to both support this, the legislature both for your temporary needs and bringing people back together, some permanent space needs to alleviate factor within the state house for as long as you need it. And also our ability to sell the bald ones so we can continue our modernization plan. And again, that would bring $1.2 million proceeds that would go back into the capital bill, as well as our ability to save $2 million over the next 10 years. So that is my proposal to the legislature. I know that it's your decision. You've always been very supportive of BGS. We want to continue to partner with you and support your programmatic outcomes. Again, you know, in looking at the timeline that Freeman French Freeman provided within the report, it's not achievable and Joe will talk about more detail in terms of our ability to meet that schedule. We agree with Freeman French Freeman that it's very aggressive and challenging to meet. We don't believe we'll be able to meet it. So with that, again, we appreciate the opportunity to be here today and recognize this is the legislature's decision, but we very much value our partnership with you. Thank you commissioner. And you did put a thought on the table. And I do have a question. BGS is in more than just to awaken correct isn't there some buildings next to to awaken that BGS is also in. So BGS is in, we're in a lot of spaces. So we are in to awaken for Aiken, thick Baldwin 109 120 and 134 a lot of spaces that we're in. So when we move to the if and when we were to move to the fifth floor of 133. Those spaces would become vacant. When we reworked our space plan recently, right where we've identified people to go into those spaces, while still making sure that the legislature is at the forefront in terms of providing you with additional permanent space as well. I'm just visualizing this where, where to Aiken is, and then you've got another building behind to Aiken that's still or near, which is also on Aiken street then you have another building is that Aiken or Baldwin. It starts to become Baldwin so it's, it's like you've got two weekend and four again, and there's like a little parking for people who have been in the state house there's a little parking lot right here. There's two, and then there's four Aiken, and then the next building over is like a block wall building I don't know what it is Joe it's an older building, but that is six Baldwin so technically that's, and that's all use right now by BGS. There's other tenants in it as well it has the financial services division, and it has state attorneys in it as well so we're not and actually Chief Romeo I has an office in there as well so we have multiple tenants and six Baldwin. So when you're saying that you'd be willing to give up to Aiken and then consolidate all your folks on the fifth floor that would mean moving folks out of for Aiken as well. So are those other two buildings part of this swap as well. They are not part of the swap because when we analyze the space right we need to make sure that we've got space for everyone so we've got boards and commissions we need to take care of as well. And, and other other sort of tenants and folks to take care of as well so at this point, what we've analyzed and looked at and what we can pull off and make sure that we still have space for other folks because we do take care of all three branches of government is to Aiken. So, it's a thought, I think it's may need more conversations in places that may be above us for this, but it's a thought. I do have questions if you have another building for Aiken that is totally used by BGS that might be worth it for legislative space as well. I don't know. I'm wondering if that as well because you're pulling out for consolidating and you're emptying that building. And then the other building chief Romeo is already in it. Those that's a higher up decision than this committee at this point for that, but there is some thoughts there. So thank you. Scott. Thanks. Thank you Jennifer or Commissioner Fitch. I'm just wondering if you could write that down with what you all just said, what all you just said because there are a lot of details there about what spaces are already available and what the shifting would be as you envision it. That would be great. I mean, I'm happy to do a follow up to the committee if that would be helpful and and I can go back through it again right now that would be helpful as well you let me know what would be most helpful. I'm happy to do either one or both. Okay, I guess it would be simpler if you if you could just, you know, write it out real quick. There doesn't have to be anything elaborate just to just a list of the spaces that you were talking about. I think you said there were seven spaces that are already fit up. That is correct. Some in 133 and some in the. What is it 109 connector. That is correct. I'm just, I'm looking at the report from last August that Freeman French Freeman did. And I think I see what you're talking about, but just if it would be great to have that clarified. Absolutely. I'm happy to do that. And then also, also the your proposed sort of shift of things moving out of four eight and you know what that would look like. A lot of that was put in place last year. When we were in session from August to September, a lot of that was put in place in terms of 133 and the connector. I mean, me fitting those up or yes, yes, yes. And, and that's was the goal to get us back this past January. I know I guess I'm just asking for a for a summary list that would be useful. And also seems like would be really useful for us to have a little field trip to see, you know, what does all looks like. We are always happy to win that time. Eric is great at walking folks around. And you know the only other thing that I didn't mention that I think is just important just to make sure that everybody's aware. The legislature is paying fee for space at the moment right for all of the space the legislature took exclusive use of and again you're only using a small portion of what, what was taken for exclusive use over the biennium. I just want folks to know that that space costs about $700,000 a year in fee for space costs as well. So another benefit to the legislature in in providing that space that you're not using back is your you don't have to pay that fee for that cost anymore. And you could use those funds for something for something different. Sure. Hey, thank you. Kurt and then Karen. Yeah, those seven rooms that you mentioned at 133 and 109 through 11. What's the occupancy, how many people could fit in those. I think we're so they are large, I'll segue to Joe on that because he actually walked from yesterday but they are, they are in keeping with the Freeman French Freeman recommendations from the second report, and they are built around seven foot physical distancing. And all of those spaces that were fit up was in, was in keeping in with the recommendations of Freeman French Freeman so they're all large enough to fit House committees, I mean that was the, or meeting rooms however you want to use them I made sure that they were fit up or the rooms that were selected were large enough for for House committees as well as Senate committees depending on how you wanted to use them to meet in a, you know, physically distance environment. And in terms of occupancy we can get that for you I don't know the total number off the top of my head Joe may either have it, or we can provide that in a follow up email as well. So as long as it's, that's the maximum for a, you know, committee if it's 11 or 13 committee members plus whatever. That's fine I just wanted to make sure there weren't any restrictions on which determining which committees by the number of chairs or what you could get in there. Yeah, that that's a that the goal there was to be decided between the leaderships of the House and Senate terms of who goes where. I mean, we haven't gotten there, because the cases went up. And that and Kerr brings up a good issue in terms of the physical distance, because we don't know what's going to be required come January. I mean, this is, there's variables out there that you just can't predict. So do you keep it at, and when, when the commissioner said seven foot, and for folks who weren't here in the committee last year. With a six foot distance, you've got to start at the core of your build of your body and work out really. So you're really talking about a total seven foot to achieve that six foot. So if, if our standard is going to be the CDC standard is three feet, then you can fit a few more people in but we don't know that yet. We don't know, or we could not be required to do physical distancing. We don't know. And that's what's making this so difficult. So Kurt, did you finish up. He muted himself. I think he's, yes, yes, I'm done. Thank you. So, looking for more clarification on the aching space. I've seen the diagrams for 133 State Street and 109 so I understand what the space options look like there with aching I think you said there's like 30 some odd work space fit up so is it that it would be for office for like desks area so folks with the idea that folks who are in the capital and state house now in that type of space would move to Aiken and then we could reconfigure state house space. But it sounds like it wouldn't be a fit for committee room meeting space. It would be our legal staff. It would be our legislative council folks. And that would free up room for committee space in the state house. I'm just trying to understand why do we want to move them there. This is what's hard for folks who have not worked in the building. We have a mezzanine floor where some of our legal staff that's where Luke Martin is. And the hair is there. Michael Churnick is there. You know we have about 10 lawyers in that space, plus some of their paralegals. And the thinking is that they could possibly move to another building. We have in the pink lady right now joint fiscal office so Catherine venom is in the pink lady and also our legal person. Our lawyer, Becky Wasserman is in the pink lady. So the thinking is we could move some of our legislative council legal staff that work out of offices that then freeze up space in the state house now if we had needed some temporary committee rooms to bring us back in January. The mezzanine you could break that up into two, two temporary spaces, possibly for two committee rooms. We just don't know. But that's helpful. That's what I'm trying to understand. Yeah. And then if we do the HVAC system, which we, this is also a key piece of all this. We don't know at the very first floor of legislative council where Mike for it sits and then further back where our editing is the back part is really problematic because there's mold issues and moisture and air circulation issues so those folks really should be moved out of there but we don't have any place to put them. So that's sort of tied in what we do with an HVAC system because initially we were thinking of a summer boiler, which would take up that space. So all of this is it's a puzzle as you move one you can't do something without moving this one without moving this one. So that's the thinking behind all that. This gives you room to maneuver. It's like you're in a room that's a total mess you got to take a couple of boxes out before you can see the floor. Right and space needs within the state house I mean that's why they've been studying it over many years and as you saw in the report they've looked at this in the 80s and the 90s and the legislature continues to look at space needs. And, and Madam chair has indicated before right more people start coming into the state house it's getting a little crowded over there. So sort of your low no cost option that we could do now before January, right is to relinquish to a can back to, or, you know, to, to, you know have the legislature however you want to occupy to a can occupy this this gives you immediate space relief at a low to no cost option. So we're again we're trying to work on those programmatic outcomes that helps you be successful as well as bgs be successful in our ability to go to the fifth floor of 133 and also our ability to sell the three Baldwin properties as well. We're going to hang on to those Baldwin properties until we really settle all of this. I think we've sort of made that decision because there's so many things up in the air, and there's no decision on any of this at this point. So Karen did you finish up after I interrupted. This is helpful I mean I just see how they're all moving pieces because I know in the Freeman French like one of the meeting spaces they offered was on the fifth floor of it so it's like how does this all tie in. And if the walls can't come down on the meeting space where is the bigger space going to be so I don't know who's going to be making all the decisions on this but it's going to be a hard nut to crack. Yeah, and I can speak to the fifth floor ball ball ballroom so the space that has been identified by Freeman French Freeman both in report number two and three. The only space on the fifth floor that has been identified to be used within their reports is that ballroom space. It turns out it used to be a theater. And so as such it was built to amplify sound it's very loud in that space. And so when Kevin my understanding was that when Kevin more from your legislative it went did a sound test in that space. He found that it was too loud. And because it's historic historic preservation said we couldn't both any sort of sound dampening to the ceiling or the side walls meaning there's no quick solution to dampen sound in that space. And therefore it had been ruled out as a as a potential committee space for that reason, just because it's really loud and echoey. Okay, Scott. I am wondering whether taking down walls in the mezzanine area and where the legislative attorneys are now, whether that would be possible in the time frame that we're looking at before January. Next year that that's, I don't know whether that's historic but if it is it's a lot less historic might might be easier to deal with it right now that the the offices are quite small. But if we were able to reconfigure that that might make committee rooms. Mezzanine used to be the cafeteria. So there were no office walls there. That used to be the cafeteria. When we built the addition in the late 80s where the cafeteria is now the mezzanine got converted into legislative office space. So those little cubicle theirs for those were put up during. So those are not weight bearing walls. Those were put up in the late 80s that was our cafeteria. Back there when you come up the back steps that are curled from the speaker's office you come up and that was the entrance to the food service line. And then you walk through and then when you go to the other end of the mezzanine where Luke's offices down there. That was the dining area. So that was open. So those walls would be shouldn't be terribly hard to remove. That either Joe or or Jennifer. I'm gonna say I'm if it's okay madam chair I'd like to yield to Joe Asia because this is definitely his area of expertise. Good morning for the record. Joe Asia director of design and construction for bgs. Although it appears to be open if you actually do a walk through there. You'll see that there's about five columns that to make a committee room would be a little bit difficult those walls. As the chair suggests stated that it used to be all open but the columns are in there and those walls would be easily to come down. If need be. I don't think it's a great place for committee room because of all the columns that are there. But Joe that could be uses temporary. Yes, it could be. Yeah, I'm thinking more temporary I'm not thinking permanent. I'm thinking if we can get back to the building and we still need spacing. I see next session as really more of a temporary fix. There's going to be some long term decisions that are based on our actual space needs and functioning at the legislature so we got two things. We got next January to get us back, and it's going to be whatever those space requirement social distancing and temporary committee meeting rooms committee rooms that at least we can function. I just think in the mezzanine would be temporary for committee rooms. So you can work around those columns, can you. Well you be like going to the Red Sox game, all kinds of which seats you're in. It could be laid out but you would probably end up taking for committee room, most of that space, if you're still taking into account the social distancing. You know whether it's certainly at seven feet that that whole space would almost become a committee room because of also would be people accessing the last two where it narrows down and comes through the backside of the you know to put offices in there you still need a second means of egress and have that whole process works. It all comes down to, we can do anything but it takes time. And then it takes money. So which one is the, you know, do we have we don't have a lot of time. I don't know if you have if you have enough money, but that's that's really what it comes down to and then we move those people that are on the mezzanine, where do they go in their space needs to be fit up. And what do they need for it in the works of that. So I that's, it's really taking all that into account, putting it on paper and seeing what goes where and what becomes vacant, you know you know, for Aiken for Governor Aiken used to be an old carriage house, it has four different elevations in that one building, only one of which complies with ADA for access. And that's off of Baldwin Street, and there it's a stainless steel aluminum galvanized ramp that goes to it. That's not that whole building that you have access to because of those four different layers. So, well, so what I was thinking is, if, if I guess I'm presuming that seven foot distancing is not viable, really. So we've been really talking about three or four foot distancing at the most. And, and if we move BGS to the fifth floor of 133, and that freed up number two Aiken, then then that's where legislative staff can go perhaps I mean I don't know what those what the space needs are but let's let's just say for the same that there's a place for them to go. So then that frees up the mezzanine, it looks like we could make, we could make two committee rooms out of that and maybe with the wall being where the narrowing happens. And the rooms would be accessed from different from different staircases. Maybe there's a door between them in order to have a second. Second me to be aggressive and emergency but the point being that there's we can get a couple committee rooms there that we don't have now. And that would be for the for the some of the smaller community rooms at least. Right I understood that and when you look at that it's the amount of people that you're going to have in each committee, and whether or not the airflow in there. There's if there's enough airflow for the amount of people you're going to be putting in there. When you talked about that second committee room further down where it narrows. The problem with that is your ADA access, the elevator is at the other end of the floor. So you would have to have unobstructive access to go through that committee room for anybody who needs that. And so you can't just say, you know, it's either move of meeting because of that, but if somebody does show up, how do they have access. And I think the access to a state housing committee is more important than when it's a state office when you can make easier reasonable combinations, which the code and standard allows. I guess I would imagine a door between the two committee rooms as as a as ADA access and also emergency second exit. Clearly understand that but if you took. See you had a committee meeting going on the hearing in room 11 and just envision somebody coming in one door in wheelchair or walker or somebody who has some other known condition that they only only they know, and they have to walk through everybody. It's not comfortable for anybody to do that on both sides. So that's some of the things that we would have to look at and then if you did move everybody out of the mezzanine, that means in this whole chess game, they go to two weekend, which then I guess would free up the ballroom on the fifth floor 133 so that BGS does fit in there. So that's, it is a big shugging that goes on. And I think that it was all if we had the time to put this on paper, you could see where that whole thing flows, and even I dare to bring it up but even the Baldwin's and how that that doesn't become. It doesn't become in play at all, but I understand the timeframe of what you're looking to do to move it in January so what is the best thing to get you in in the fastest, least disruptive. Normally, I would be concerned about money. But but I'm not the one requested the funds for this project so that's my third thing that I worry about so I worry about time and whether or not I can get enough people in there to do this type of work. And so, when I look at that, what are some of those best options if we were to look at the Freeman French room report, and what their assessment and they laid out expanding the committee rooms on the 30s and the 40s. We have in those rooms, the their induction units is what the air comes out of heating cooling fresh air. We did not touch the rooms, some of the smaller rooms it was, we get which room exactly it was it was the northeast corner. Was it where energy 35. Pardon, you're on our floor. Yes, that's correct room 35 was not touched. Right. And the reason to the best of our knowledge we're not having the ability to talk with Freeman French treatment about this whole thing is between your committee room and room 35. There is a return duct going down through that wall. And so, trying without having to redo all the HVAC that room stays the same size. It is, does that make sense. This coming year we're almost executing a contract for HVAC project for the State House. When we're all done with that and we start construction, hopefully in 23 that duct work that returned duct work may have to be enlarged, which means that room then changes. Or we put it in the floor below or in the ceiling above. And then I'm tearing apart those committee rooms yet again. But I'll have my design in place first, so that I'll be able to hit the ground running will have all our equipment material pre purchased and ready to go, whereas right now I have to do a design. I gotta I gotta get a contract, a design firm under contract, which takes time. We have to do the design. I have to get permits from historic preservation and for fire safety, and they're only going to want to do that once there's enough detail to what it's going to look like. So the details for fire safety are different than historic preservation they're going to see some of the finer details the finishes of the room and what we're taking out and putting back in. And then what I'd really hate is our mechanical engineer to become in midway through next year to say, you know, we're going to take out that wall also. The opportunity that you missed, or you might gain is room 35 stretches a little bit into what is your committee right now to gain a little bit more space, because at this point in time, that room 35 still doesn't apply with you know if you were down to a foot to three feet for COVID pandemic reasons, it's it's still tight people in there are tight so I would want to even expand further on the Freeman French Freeman report to really look at everything and how everybody fits best, knowing that and totally agree. I don't know about the HPC system, because I now look at this what was put forth and going, here's a potential addition. Yesterday I think I was listening, and you were saying well, we could do the, the short plan of the existing cafeteria. That would be a good thing to know whether or not this system can even handle that, if not, what are the alternatives. So that could and could not come into play. I just, your Freeman French Freeman, when I think we're putting the report together, they were aggressive, knowing they had to get it done and said, we start going to get any contract in place in April. This is the last day of April. I don't know when you're all going to be going home, and when the Capitol bill passes but let's say, two weeks. Let's let's hope for the best. And I'm three weeks behind at that point already. What I'd really like to do is put you in the best place possible. And I think to sort of come full circle on this is we have the, you have room 11, which I did with Kevin more yesterday that that's not the best sound quality room. Sorry, the legislative lounge is not, but you have the legislative lounge, you have room 10 room 11. There's room nine. And as a commissioner said we still have four rooms at the basement of 133 and three rooms that are set up at 109 this little extra space over in 109 out of those column anti rooms if you will. We have small conversations and the likes of that. But that is really the fastest way of moving people if there was no one committee room in the mezzanine and everybody in the mezzanine moved and fit over to to Aiken without any major changes that could work. But in my line of work what happens is you say, I will just run that new electrical cord over there and find out that like, you know, there's not enough power. And that goes to moving the copy room. I think it's a great idea of where Freeman friends Freeman said the copy room and it support should go. It used to be the old mechanical room for the State House before it was converted into ledge council. However, I'm moving exhaust fan and everything else that was over in the copy room do I have power over there. I go out on a limb and say I think I do. But I don't know until I get the design in place and find out well did we come up short. And then what do I have to do. The worst thing that I would want to do is, you know, two days before Christmas, or before two days before even you're coming in and you're going to have a place to go. And then you're still going to have the backup rooms at 133109. And so it's really about proper planning and where we can get the best for you right now. So what I'm taking away from this is the the quickest thing we can do is use the rooms that were ever even fit up. And the only possible thing we could do in terms of reconfiguration along the lines of what Freeman friends Freeman recommended is possibly make a committee room out of the mezzanine that's that's not a good summary. Correct. And that means they the people in the mezzanine come to to a yes. Okay, so then we'd have to look at that. Yeah. So these are all moving pieces that at this point no decisions have been made. I want to be very clear to folks because some of these decisions are made with people higher up than us. So I just want to make sure people with clear about that. There are some initial decisions that have to be negotiated and we're on hold, waiting for that. And the space report from Freeman friends Freeman came in. That's an aggressive approach and timeline. And I have concerns personally about tearing down some walls which number one we might not be able to do for a variety of reasons. But by tearing down some of those walls you're going to lose four committees off the top four to five committees, and then where do we put them. And that's where we're going to put them. It's a long term decision, because you're not going to be building an addition for three or four years after that. So you lose that space in those committee rooms. You, you need to know where you're going to place those committees for at least three to four years. It's not just another summer. That's the reality. And that's what concerns me. And you're going to have some unhappy people. It's tough. This is a tough conversation. And it's really difficult to have this type of conversation when we're not in the building. Michelle. Yeah, I just wanted to say, I mean, one thing that I find interesting is that I mean, of course, there's a lot that we don't know. But it feels like we're not necessarily taking into consideration all that we do know that that is happening now, as opposed to a year from a year ago. So a year ago when the decision was made a little more than a year ago that it wasn't safe to meet in the state house, nobody was immunized. We didn't have an immunization that was even possible for anybody. And by the time we go back in January, the majority, I think it's safe to say the majority of our legislators will be will be immunized. You know, we have over a year of data of schools who have had children varying distances apart and in most cases they found if they're three feet apart they're okay. In most cases at a school they haven't had a single case from staff or students. It's possible for people to get together and be safe. And with the higher rates of immunization it feels like we could do this safely. And so I'm grateful that Vermont has been very cautious, but it also feels like there are ways that we can do this wisely. And we were willing to look at all the data and do whatever we can to move forward because we don't need to have the same restrictions that we had a year ago. The world is changing and there's some information that could make it easier on us. And I hope that we'll do that because honestly as a first year legislator who has been 100% remote. I don't need to be back in the building I need to know what the model is that is supposed to be operating. Before I decide if I'm going to run again. You know we haven't we haven't had the full experience and we're not able to build the relationships that everyone tells us are so essential to be effective as a legislator where we're operating at a disadvantage. And so Vermont would be best served by having us back together and for those people who are not able to come back together. Maybe we have some exceptions where people continue to be remote if they need to for for their own reasons. But I hope we can look at that and make a plan and move forward and not wait so long that we aren't able to do it, because I think this is really important for Vermont and and for all of us that are trying to serve our constituents as best as we can. I think we have some really good points, but one point that I think also needs to be presented the legislative body and our work is a little different than schools in that. And this is one of the reasons we we got sent home. 180 members coming from every single part of the state. And you put a group of 180 people close together that come from every part of the state. And we could be a great super spreader to everyone else in the state, when we go back home. And that was the real concern. Last year. And now yes, vaccines have come in. That changes the landscape thank goodness for that. The cases have been going down, there's variants that have come in, we don't know, but our function is very different because we are bringing people in from all parts of the state into one building. And then you throw in the lobbyists who are also coming from a dispersed part of the state. And then you bring in the public groups that are coming in the State House is the hub that could spread this all out to the whole state again. That, that's a little different piece than a school. Now was that going to play next year or not that's what played in March. We haven't gotten out of that building, when we did, we could have spread this to every part of the state. And that that was the real concern back in March for that so it's not to negate what Michelle is saying. But that's a piece of this conversation in our work that's a little different than some of the other workplaces that we experience in our private life. For that. So, Sarah, and then Kurt, did you also have your hand up there was some or was it Michael. So Sarah. Just a question for the commissioner or. And maybe Joe, I want to make sure that we're really clear on when decision points need to be made. And, and I, this is very helpful to have you in today but I'm wondering if it's possible to get some of this on paper so that, you know, others can see the site, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's a lot. I know, and it's, and I hesitate to even ask you to do this but it's the kind of, I think it'll help make the work easier. And is that something that absolutely happy happy to do that and I know one of the representatives brought up doing a site visit. And if, if anybody's interested next week happy to happy to take some folks around and look at some spaces I don't even know if that's an option but I'm just saying we could hold on. I mostly, I'm mostly interested in understanding, you know, when decisions need to be made for the technology piece you know is happening. If we need to do the fit ups in a certain way, you know, so that so that our colleagues have the information that they need before them to make those decisions, so that we can allow you the time to do your work and so we're talking about what can happen. Because there often can be a disconnect between what we like, you know what we dream of and what we want and what's realistic about moving into a whatever space it is. Absolutely, I can work with Joe to put that together and happy to send it to the committee members. Part of it though just so folks know is your legislative it staff as well right if we're going to fit up other spaces for technology that's, that's there Bailey Bailey WEC versus us so we could speak for ourselves and if if Kevin Moore is available happy to, you know happy to work with him and have him also chime in on the schedule and decision points as well. Yeah, that would be great and one of the questions that we didn't ask him directly was like, you know what when does he need. We've been here reading in the news about supply chain, you know I just want to know, and I think he's been thinking I'm assuming he's been thinking about this. The other pieces I want to make sure that I understand clearly, because we were talking about Monday and money and fee for space. And I understand that we, the legislature reserve these spaces and has been paying speed for space. When we talk about the amount of money that's that is going to be needed going forward I just want to make sure I'm clear and understanding when we talk about that the $700,000 was paid for I'm assuming out of the corona really fund money. Right, but there's so yeah this is and that, but that there's my understanding is that there's some funding that's put to the side and this might not be a question for it that you can answer it might be for our joint fiscal or the management but I just want to make sure that I'm understanding because there are a few numbers that have been tossed around about that we have two and a half million dollars in the budget to do this work for the legislature and I want to know if it's like we have to take the fee for space that's already been reserved out of that so that we that we have less than two million to do this work or if that money remains so I'm not sure and Madam chair you might know the better. But I want to make sure that we understand the timeline and the resources that we think we have and what what our chat options are if if the legislature continues to retain all of the space that is currently under the exclusive use of providing this biennium for the temporary needs of the legislature to meet back in person, then there will be another $700,000 that the legislature will need to pay BGS to occupy all the spaces. If the legislature relinquishes back the spaces that are not being needed, because for whatever reason, when we went back and reassessed it they weren't considered viable spaces. If you relinquish those other spaces back to us then you won't pay fee for space for those spaces next year, meaning that $700,000 figure goes down right, unfortunately by the spaces that you give back, which then allows you to then use that funding right for other purposes which could include fit up or whatever you want to do with it. But as to your direct question about that $700,000 and where it's been configured into the budget I don't I don't have the answer to that. Thank you I think that as as this unfolds we will, I'm sure that will be figuring that piece out. And I do I do have a you know I do have a spreadsheet that basically itemizes all of the spaces and the cost of those spaces as well. So we are back to the classic BGS order of operations question, Eric Philhorn BGS of what are your programmatic needs. And so legislative leadership needs to commit to how they intend to do business in January. And then we can respond to that to the associated needs. Okay, so much time. Right, that's a good enough situation and other people need to make this decision. We can't do it you know how do we. It's not our role at this point. Madam chair if I may. You know, those decisions do come into play with the whole audio visual part of it. Because as you know in your committee room, there's no wires hanging off the wall or coming across the floor stuff like that so you know, and not just your committee room there are a few others but there are others that are not set up for audio visual. And what is that expectation, when somebody says you know if they tell me in December. This is going in all these rooms and conceal all these wires, it can't be done. And we may have to live with that, you know what that if it's temporary, we can live with that. I'm okay with that I just as Eric said about the programmatic needs, the programming includes that. Here's where you go so we need to know where you go what you need for fit up and if it's truly temporary. These are the things that we do to get by temporary, but that's some of that guidance, I will need also to help with that because if it's permanent, we do a different job. If it's temporary, we do make it look nice. There's no trip hazards, right, but it is different than permit. Right, and I think we'll have to, you know, we can accept that. And then we can, because I think the priority and I think Michelle laid it out well. The priority is for us to get back in this building so we can start getting to know each other. So we can function as a legislative body and do good legislative work. And for the new folks that were elected and even the folks who came in the previous biennium have never really felt the feel of the building. So we've got between 180 people, we have at least half of those folks that have never really experienced the full legislative experience. And that's my concern in terms of how we legislate, and where we're going to be as a legislative body and a general assembly after this, so that we don't lose our integrity as a body. That's what's at stake here if we don't get back in the building. And I think Michelle laid it out quite well that new members have no clue what the feel of that building is. I know it's hard for them to figure out if they even want to continue doing this work, and even folks who are current legislators can't keep this pace up. So there's a lot at stake in terms of the strength of our legislative body and our branch of government because we are an equal branch of government. We are being strained right now. And I'm concerned about that. I have a very special place in my heart for the general assembly. And I don't want to lose it. Sorry. Madam chair we want to help you review. Yeah, and it's from honors home. And we can't lose it. It is the people's house and we are the people. And somehow we have to make it work and you're absolutely right Alice. All feel the same even if they haven't been in the state house like you and I and Mary and Marsha have been. It's, it's something that you cannot easily describe the feeling that you have. I was staying at the Capitol Plaza and going to work in the morning and looking up and said, Oh my gosh, what a gorgeous building and I can't believe this is where I, I am located where I am working for the people of my area so it's, it's something that we have to do and I have to agree it's got to be temporary. We can, we can move around all the other stuff just to get us back and hopefully get somebody to make a decision to get started. So, thank you for your part, Alice, because we know we're all with you. Michael. So Madam Chair, I will triple down on what you said to Michelle's comments that I, Michelle virtually stole the words out of my mouth that I was going to say at the tail end and she got to it first and I applaud her for that. I feel exactly the same I understand what you said with your concerns with, I guess folks have the concern that there's 180 of us that can come from all corners of the state but with us all rapidly approaching vaccinations. Such and then depending what the governor does an emergency order. I think we're robbing the Vermont taxpayers by not being in the Capitol building we're not doing good legislating this is Michael Morgan's opinion only I'm not speaking for the crew but I think we owe it to the taxpayer to be in that building doing the work. And in order to do it correctly, we need to be there. And we owe the taxpayers nothing short of that period. Thank you. Anything else. So this is a hard not to crack. These are hard conversations to have and their decisions that need to be made that are up above us for the time being and when once one or two of those decisions are made then things will start flowing. And it's hard to make a path forward when we don't know what's at the end of that path. It's really what's happening here with a health issue. That's what's so difficult about this for that. And I think people need to keep in mind as we move forward and whatever direction that is. Particularly if we get back in the building which is the goal that some of those space situations are temporary. I think we have to keep that in mind, particularly for the next session. It's temporary. And, and I see a discussion occurring more next session in terms of what is the long term plan. You can't really figure out that long term plan. So you can address the immediate need of getting us back in the building and my pet enough say today. Sorry. Any other questions I think it's time to close it up. It's closing in on noon. It's been a long week. Anything else from BGS. I just want to reiterate that I don't know if you can tell, but I've been back in my office for the last, maybe three or four weeks. And I had some apprehension myself about returning because I had been remote and sort of isolated for a long time back my husband's the one that drives the kids all around and ran all the errands so I literally stayed on my property for almost a year and didn't leave. The idea of getting in my car and going somewhere and kind of being close to people was really scary. It was really scary for me. Unfortunately, my husband broke his ankle. And basically overnight, I was shipping all the kids around going to the grocery store and I also thought that if anybody's going to return to the office should be the BGS commissioner right. And I will tell you that while it was, it was scary and I was apprehensive. As soon as I did it, I really enjoyed it. In fact, I've enjoyed it even I'm an office person and I'm people person but I've enjoyed it even more so for example Joe was in his office which is upstairs. I haven't seen Joe in person in over a year. And the moment I saw Joe I was like, Oh, people again seeing people in person this is so much better than I even thought that it was ever going to be. So what I'm trying to say is I identify with all of you. I completely understand wanting to be back in person BGS wants to do everything we can do to support you in doing that and I hope that we've been that partner all along, trying to help you guys come back to in person committee sessions so we're here. The other thing I'd like to mention that we didn't touch on is that BGS are also your custodians and your maintenance mechanics. Right, we've been operationalizing all of the COVID-19 health and safety requirements, the entire time. And I will tell you that we've done our custodial staff is amazing, and very dedicated and committed to what they do every single day. And we have done an amazing job at addressing the COVID-19 health and safety requirements. In fact, there has been very little positive COVID-19 cases in our buildings and when we've had them they have not spread, because our staff knows exactly what to do when when there's you know somebody in our building that's the tad COVID. So I hope that also maybe alleviates a little bit of concern about sort of the health and safety side of things you know we will continue as as the governor continues to establish and kind of go with the flow of COVID-19 and continue to operationalize all those health and safety requirements I just want to give you a little. I want to make you feel a little bit good there that we have folks that are working really hard to keep everybody really healthy and safe in our buildings and again, we want to support you in your programmatic outcomes I hope you want to support BGS and our programmatic outcomes. That's why we re looked at our space plan and said, is there something we can do to both help the state house and the legislative body, temporarily, and also at least give you a little bit of room on the, on the permanent side as well which is is how to make sure everything comes into the play. All that being said, again, we would like the flexibility, like we talked about in Williston and I just want to make sure I get it on the record that we also would like the ability to sell the Baldwin's as well. But we are committed to bringing you back will do everything we can we've we've continued to give you our best project managers along the way. Joe continues to join me because he's my best technical expert and all things buildings. Whatever we can do for you we want to do it. But again, you are correct the decisions need to be made, because time is not on our side. So we will need some decisions in order for us to move forward. Madam Chair, we manage people in 260 buildings across the state. So we, we do this everywhere, but I learned very early on in my career at BGS, and I might have even learned it before that that there is a building in Vermont that is the most important building in Vermont. And we all want to get back into it, and we are all committed to helping that happen. We're co equal branches of government, but we all work for the same people. Anything else before we finish up with you folks in the committee. Thank you. Hopefully next week, maybe, I hope we have a path. We'll have a bill. We're gonna have a bill.