 Welcome back, and as promised in the studio with me tonight, I think I'll see you in the next video. I've got Tina Garry and Louise Flanagan, and we're going to be looking at the latest installment in the Thursday Murder Club, The Last Devil to Die by Richard Osman. Tina and Louise, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me. So, Tina, this is not your first time, and I know you love the Thursday Murder Club, and Louise, you're very welcome to the Book Club Reviews, and I'm sure it'll not be your last time. You'll be asked anyway, I know it's once you're in, it's very hard. Like the Thursday Murder Club, I would say. So, Tina, just maybe a recap of, I'm sure 99% of people out there know about the Thursday Murder Club, but just to recap very briefly who they are and what they're about. Well, this is the fourth book in the series, written by Richard Osman that people might know from TV's House of Games or formerly of Pointless as well. It's set in Cooper's Chase, a retirement village in Kent, and it's far from sleepy. It's full of very interesting characters. And the Thursday Murder Club is people that look into murder cases instead of doing jigsaws in Cooper's Chase puzzle room, and the four key members are Elizabeth, Joyce, Abraham, and Ron. His name almost just... And they're very fully formed, warm characters, and they represent a little slice, maybe a little different slice of British society. You know, Ron is a tattooed West Ham supporting Union man. He's a bit rough and ratty. He's a bit of a white boy. Abraham is an Egyptian psychotherapist, so he brings a lot of medical background and experience. He's very wise and very reasonable. Elizabeth is kind of the head honcho of the group. She's a former MA5 agent, and she's very cool and very aloof, and she's a really interesting character. And then, by far my favourite is Joyce, who is a widowed nurse, and she acts as a bit of a comic foil to the others because she has a lovely innocence, and she can be wee bit gullible and funny. You know, she can introduce some comedy into it as well. So between the four of them over the past four weeks have gotten into all kinds of capers. I think people who are fans of very gritty or serious crime novels would be a bit disappointed even. These are capers. They have great plots and mysterious subplots and complex and convincing backstories, but they are a bit of a caper at the same time. They're a really enjoyable read. And it really is another word for that don't underestimate the aged Louise. Absolutely. When Tina approached me anyway about the book, I said, Oh God, well, I'm not really sure I could come on and speak about it because I haven't actually read any of the others. And I know, of course, that there are three other books in the series, but Tina assured me that, you know, they're individual stories and that, you know, it's a standalone investigation, so to speak. So, you know, you'll enjoy it nevertheless. And I must say I really, really did. And something, you know, really to its credit, I'm actually a very reluctant reader and it takes a lot for me to sit down and read a book. And then any time I do when I enjoy a book, I'm like, gosh, I really should do this more often, but it does take a lot of busy life and all the rest. And I thoroughly enjoyed it and I would definitely, I want to go back and I want to read the other books now and learn more about the characters. Like, as you mentioned, like the characters, they're so complete. They're so real. Like they seem to me like they're actually real people. And that they're not just these fictional characters. And I want to learn more about them and know more about them, you know, which is an indication that it's a very good story and a very good series. And I think the way that Richard Osman writes the book, it's written and it's very easy to connect with the characters. You say, you think you know them as real people. And did you find a disadvantage that you hadn't read the other books or were you able to assure you to get into it? Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. So you certainly can, you know, read them independently. But I found at the start, there were quite a lot of characters introduced. They have a dinner party near the start. And I found it kind of difficult to figure out, you know, who is who. There was reference, for instance, to Alan. And I was like, who is Alan? Oh, Alan's the dog, you know. And I'm sure, of course, people who are familiar with the series, you know, would obviously know that. So it probably would make sense to be honest, you know, to read them in order. But certainly I enjoyed it. And I found very quickly that I was able to kind of establish, as you mentioned, you know, the warmth of Joyce and the authority of Elizabeth, etc. And that did become apparent to me very, very quickly. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I was interested in finding out what Louise's take was going to be. You know, having read the first three and having invested heavily in the first three. And there are recurring characters. I was really interested to see, you know, could you jump in into the fourth one and not be lost. So I'm kind of relieved that you are. Yeah, no, I definitely could. Now, there's reference, for instance, in the fourth one, you know, like to Diamonds and the Kettle and things like that, you know, that are, you know, hence, of course, are references to the previous books. But again, that has kind of whetted my thirst, my interest, you know, in terms of going back and reading them. And I'm like, I want to find out about those Diamonds and the Kettle, you know. So, yeah, I really, really enjoyed it nevertheless. And as you mentioned, you know, like Joyce is such a warm character. And one of the things that I noticed again, I haven't read the other stories, but just her relationship with her daughter, Joanne, like I would love to know more about how Joanne has interacted with her mother in the past because we have such love and affection for Joyce as a character, but her own daughter doesn't seem to have that same love and affection for her. And that was something that I just, I picked up on and I was like, I wonder what other interactions they've had, you know, in the other books because I just felt so sad and disappointed for Joyce that she was sending text messages that weren't being returned. And it was a bit of a heads up too, as well, I suppose, for us all to appreciate our own parents. And, you know, sometimes other people can see the good and the worse, but we can't see the wood for the trees ourselves with people in our lives that we perhaps take for granted. So I found that interesting and I'd like to know more about that. Osman's clever on that. He structures it in a way that a lot of the chapters are from different points of view, different narrative perspectives. But Joyce's are her own personal diary entries that she uses as therapy after losing her husband. And they are particularly warm and because it's a diary entry and it's private and it's her own thoughts. Do you really get into her as a character in a way that you maybe don't with the others and she just is so warm and those little simple things like those text messages, they're very real, they're very easy to relate to. Osman had said that he wanted it, like his mother is in a retirement village and the characters in the novel are not loosely based on her friends but maybe inspired by her life and her friends. But he... I can't remember what I was going to say now. It's gone, it's gone. And no, whenever he writes from her perspective, it is very real but he had said that he had felt that that generation were an invisible generation and we had spoken about the representation of old people whenever we reviewed. I think it was the second one we had done together, Jane. But he had said because they are an invisible generation it made them ideal for a detective story and the ones looking at Elizabeth thinking, does she have a gun on her handbag? Because she's an octogenarian and she does have a gun around. So he's doing something really interesting with characters that I don't think anyone else has really tapped into. And of course it wouldn't be the Thursday murder club without a murder and the last devil to die there's a few murders for them to investigate but it starts off with a friend of theirs being murdered, Tina. Yes, an antique dealer that we are introduced to in the third book who is a friend of Elizabeth's husband has a very small bit part at the start. He's not on it for very long. The opening chapter of the novel explains how he has been told to take a donation of an antique box into his antique store and that someone else will come and buy it tomorrow so there's something criminal going on and that first chapter it's him deciding what to do with it and then the last line of the chapter is he notices the flash of a shotgun or a flash of a bullet or whatever it is and then he dies. So we're sucked right into the narrative very, very quickly and there's quite a high body count on this one as well. The reference of the last devil to die then is there are so many villains in it. Basically the last one left is the one that's hitting the trigger or the one that's the mastermind of a lot of the crimes here going on. So it's very, very cleverly structured. That non-linear narrative as well where you're kind of going backwards and forwards in time. But yeah, Per Kaldes, he's not in the novel for very long. And also there are so many subplots, Louise, going on as well. There's the plot about romance frauds, that's what it's called, with Merevin and Tatiana and then there's the other one too about a very sensitive subject about assisted suicide or assisted death, I shouldn't say so. And he brings them all together in a nice way. As you say Tina, he's humorous and you're laughing and then when he deals with Stephen's dementia it's very, very sensitive and very caring. Yeah, definitely. I found with this book that as I was reading it sometimes when I literally laughed out loud, or just kind of make you just do a little kind of, when you're reading it, you know, that it's just the wee turns of phrase are just so funny that they wouldn't literally make you make a sound like that. And then I also was literally reduced to tears as well. And I haven't read very many books that have made me both laugh out loud and literally have tears rolled down my cheeks. And in this case, both of those things happened. And in reference to the subplot with the Tatiana, Mervyn and Tatiana, I thought that was dealt with really well. And I suppose, you know, it was a bit of an insight into, you know, how vulnerable people can be and how naive people can be. And I thought it was lovely the way the members of the Thursday Murder Club kind of took Mervyn under their wing and just realized that this was an injustice and it was something that they couldn't turn a blind eye to. Even though they're not particularly fond of Mervyn yet, NOA is a person. They kind of don't really explain too much why, but he just seems a bit kind of drool or a bit distant and they haven't quite made their mind up about him. But nevertheless, they just think, you know, we need to help him out here. We can't let this happen. And he is very, very naive and he is convinced that Tatiana is a real person and that they're just fools and that they'll be sorry when she comes over on the plane and, you know, after he has sent her a few thousand euros or pounds to get her to come. So I thought that was a very, very good subplot and it's probably something that, like, a lot of readers of the book, it might kind of help to create a sense of awareness about, you know, situations like that. And then the other one that you mentioned as well, like the subplot about Stephen, because I haven't read the other books, I feel I haven't seen Stephen at his best. And again, I can't wait to go back and read the other books and learn more about him and learn more about the man. So I thought it was just dealt with in such a realistic and respectful way. Yeah, I just literally cried. I thought it was beautiful. There was an episode at the beginning of the book where Stephen reads out a letter. Excuse me to Elizabeth. And by just dementia. And she realizes that he wrote it himself. I thought that was very touching, Tina. Yeah, certainly the whole issue of Stephen's dementia has been dealt with in the other books and we can see that gradual degeneration as the books progress as well. But it's really dealt with, with, with dignity and humanity. And, you know, there is a plot where it is there's a euthanasia element and he's, Osmond's not trite about it. He's not preachy, you know. And he's very respectful of the fact that, you know, that has been their choice. And it's lovely that Elizabeth's friends don't judge either because, you know, the book really explores, you know, the reality of aging and loneliness and loss and of life and death. And Osmond kind of puts the situation out there, but there's no judgment. And it's basically, you know, what would any of us do in that situation? So it's really dealt with with all that pathos and humanity has really dealt with, with dignity. And it is a lovely subplot. I mean, because of it, Elizabeth, Elizabeth as a character kind of takes a backseat because she's not as present or as available because, you know, she has more pressing issues to deal with at home than these murders. But it's certainly very interesting subplot. But then again, he'll, you know, interchange it then with humorous episodes even at Kuldash's funeral. He doesn't know a vicar, but he has, you know, he has, he has left his intentions for what would happen for his funeral and he gets a vicar that his wife, his ex-wife, her now dead wife, met at a speed awareness course once. And she says, oh, he's drawn something or other, look him up. So the vicar is trying to put some kind of sermon together for Kuldash who he has never met and, you know, surmises, oh well, he lived in Brighton so he must have lived the sea, must have loved the sea. And he lived in the bungalow so he mustn't have been a man who liked stairs. And I mean, what should have been, you know, a sad occasion about Kuldash's funeral, you're giggling the whole way through it because, you know, it's this, you know, farcical scenario of someone trying to put, you know, some kind of tribute together for a man who has passed away that he hasn't met. So even the darkest of subject matters are treated in a way that really tickle you with this book, you know, and I have to say I totally agree with Louise. There are laugh out loud moments, you know, it's not, you're not holding your sides in, stitches laughing, but there are really touching pieces of humor, definitely in it, you know. There's one part to remember whenever Dom Holt came, Abram and Ron and George were spying, and he comes with the golf club and slashes their tires. And Josh just sees the humor in this, like, you know, you're laughing. It's so funny. What I liked about it as well, I suppose it was just because my eyesight is deteriorating and the prints big and the chapters are small or short, so you can read, you know, maybe four or five pages and you'll say, I'll do another one. Like, you know, it's very well structured that way. It's difficult to put down, Jane. Yeah, it is, definitely. And is there one, any part in particular, that you really, really liked or that stands out for you? I think the whole issue with Stephen's death, I thought that was really touching. I shed a tear or two at that as well, and it kind of came as a bit of a surprise because I didn't think that was the direction they were going in. Before the book was released in the middle of September, they had said, you know, there was a big body count in this book, and they had said, you know, that there might be someone we know and love who's part of the body count, too. I was dreading it that it would be one of the four. I know that's terrible, or dreading that it would be Joyce, which is by far my favourite. And then, as it became more apparent that it was going to be Stephen, and it builds quite gradually up to that. And it doesn't take over the main plot at all, but it's this little, you know, sad undercurrent that they revisit, and then, you know, it comes to a head then, and again, it dealt with really sensitively. Like, right before, he does pass, like he says, tell me the story of when we first met because he keeps forgetting it and she keeps reminding it. And I just think it's just done in such a lovely, respectful way. And then, you know, as you said, the fact that Richard Osmond doesn't make any judgement in terms of whether they have done what we should all do or what we should all think, it's just what was right for them, it was their decision. And then the fact that some of the other characters in the book don't necessarily agree with the decision, they completely support Elizabeth, you know, following his death. But they think, God, I wouldn't have opted for that. That's not what I would do, you know. To kind of, I suppose, allow the reader to kind of experience that as well. Like, we don't need to agree with everything that happens necessarily, but we just need to understand that people are entitled to make their own decisions and everyone's experience is different and everyone comes at situations, you know, from a different angle. So I just thought it was just dealt with in a really, really respectful way. It doesn't matter what your own personal belief is in relation to it. You can still empathise with the characters and you can still kind of see where they're coming from from their perspective, even if it's not something that you agree with yourself. And I heard Richard, I've been interviewed and he said he's taken a break from the Thirsty Murder Club, but there will be another installment and that Steven Spielberg has bought the rights to make a film. What's your views on that, Tina? I won't lie, Jean, this is something I'm struggling with. I would love to see it serialised rather than made into a movie and I'd love to see it in the hands of a British director. I would worry that some of the cultural norms or even we nuances might be lost and I don't know if it would translate well to an American audience or I don't know... It's so British. It is, it's very, very British and I would hate to kind of lose that. So look, I mean, hopefully Spielberg will make a lovely job of it maybe A-TV or BBC, maybe someone like Leslie Mann involved or, you know, when I had first heard that there was a chance of it maybe going to TV I was trying to cast it in my head and, you know, who I would like in a role. So it'll be interesting to see. I would love a series out of it. I think it really has the legs for a series, but... I just think Maggie Smith would... I can see her as part of the Murder Club as one actor anyway, actress. She would be wonderful and she really would. So out of ten, what would you give the book, Tina? Oh, I'm going for a nine. I would nearly give it a ten. I'm a massive fan. I think they're just really pleasant rates. They're not taxing. They're not challenging. They are just a caper. I think it feels like the secret seven for adults. You know, they're not overly serious. I just think it's a really nice rate. I have to say I really enjoyed it. There has been a little bit of criticism that maybe it's a bit unrealistic that even though these four people take on such dangerous feats, they're never really in proper danger themselves. But I don't want to read that. I prefer the caper element of it. I think that that's kind of explained or justified by how so many people undermine them because of their age. Absolutely. And don't kind of view them as a threat because they're just old people in inverted commas. So I actually wouldn't agree with that criticism. So when I was trying to think of what I would give it out of 10, I had kind of thought nine as well and then I thought, what would I take the point away for? And I literally couldn't think of any reason why it deserves to be Dr. Mark. I just enjoyed it so much. So I actually would give it 10 out of 10. I just think it's beautiful. It's so accessible, but it's also beautifully written. It's not pretentious, but it's just breath-taking and I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for taking time out tonight and as I said, we'll have you back again in a few months to do another one. Thank you.