 No one else is coming Okay, we'll call the meeting to order that first item is public comment seconds for public Yes And the sessions are coming together really nicely and I think it's building off the regional conversations that some of you Participate in the planning Commission, etc. But if you have space in your calendar something you may just want to mark And I guess I should officially announce that this is Eric Horwalt Hello everyone It's ERIC yes, and can you spell your last name for me, please V OR WALD I mean So next we have approval of the minutes from the June 28th meeting Any discussion on minutes Next item discussion of draft master plan economic vitality section Eric. Yes. Thank you I'm actually just going to introduce this and turn it over to Regina for the actual discussion But back on July 2nd Jesse emailed out the the draft section, which you should all have a copy of if you don't let me know And I'll provide them to you The that section included some some questions and Discussion points that Regina had included and also in the email there's a couple of discussion questions that Regina had included as well for us to talk about tonight So I think the goal for tonight's meeting anyway is to try to get through Through that information so that we can make any edits necessary to bring it back at the next meeting since we're again with our schedule The way it is We'll be reviewing the economic vitality section tonight looking at edit edits at the next meeting while we Introduce the next section at that meeting as well. So with that, I'll turn it over to Regina Awesome. All right So this Is the very first chapter And as I'm doing this just sort of keep in mind that this is completely open to debate Generally speaking how the sections are laid out And it also may We want to keep each chapter consistent as best as we can But we may shift this format as we're doing the other chapters because this chapter was like essentially verbatim from an existing plan So in one sense it was sort of like easy to pull up some things into this simple format The other chapters that are pulling from a variety of different things and plans may not fit into this Context quite so well. So we may need to sort of shift as we're going along But so first So This is not going to be the first chapter of the plan just to be clear There will be sort of an introduction and I know it's confusing That's kind of coming at the end of our process But it's sort of easy to use the intro as like a parking lot as we're sort of figuring out What makes the most sense in each chapter and then we can kind of end with that and figure out how it all Helps fit together as one So for each of these chapters there will essentially be four of them an introduction one and then four that align with the four city strategic visions We'll sort of start with a page that has the vision statement on it Then economic insights are intended to be some Statistics to really sort of bring you together and figure out where what's going on in Winooski The concept is that these two pages right now. They're very text heavy They're essentially pulled right out of the economic development plan But the thought is that these two pages would be very Infographics he tried to get a lot of information out there in a simple easy to see format Then the second Topic is essentially a key issues Often in economic development plans we talk about things in an opportunity's challenges Context sometimes also in a full SWAT analysis strengths weaknesses opportunities threats But essentially kind of breaking it down into these Two broad categories what's working well that you may want to continue to see working well What's not working well that you might need to do something about in order to sort of shift so ideas to sort of replicate that in each of the chapters and Then the next section are basically actions So this Is the longest part of this chapter and I think what we're feeling is we don't want to do this We don't want pages and pages and pages of goals Objectives actions what we really would like to do is end up with something at the end of the day That's sort of high-level Focuses the city on where exactly what exactly want to do over the next eight years But also really rely on those more in-depth plans that already exist out there For the very sort of nitty-gritty on how you're going to move forward and get those done So there's kind of you know, there's a variety of different things we can do in here We can stick with goal level that were identified in the economic development plan We can Somehow pick like ten top things that the city could sort of focus on in the next eight years There's sort of a variety of things that we can do But the the tricky part is the how we do that I think right now we want to make sure we're at least aware of everything That's on the table getting the feedback from the other commissions and making sure that we've got We've got sort of the full picture and then we can figure out how to cut and really elevate what actually goes in this plane I don't know if you guys yeah, I would just say I think really the the idea with that is to try to keep again to keep this as At a high level because there are all these additional studies and committees and all this other work that's going on instead of trying to identify priorities from Those studies and include them in this document Just identifying kind of the general overarching goals or the overarching themes that we can include and then rely on those Documents to to provide the details so that when So that if conditions change we don't have to try to figure out how to change the master plan Because those other those other plans will will provide the guidance for us So if something isn't covered in those plans But it's sort of a detailed thing that we want to make sure it's covered Well, they go back and edit their plans because it's do you know what I mean? I'm just curious if there's that might not be sure I would probably see it that way rather than trying to incorporate it into the master plan because just because of the process The statutory process for for updating a master plan and and getting it approved I think it can take some time where those other planning documents can be a little bit more nimble And they can be updated and changed quicker and with a little bit more I'll say a little more ease, but there's not necessarily a statutory process that needs to be followed And do all those other plans have actions? I guess I don't want to make sure because I would love I don't want this just to be high You know high arching and people just read and there's not much to do I mean they don't really understand how to implement so I just want to make sure those other plans have direction and implementation So I mean I need to read more of the plans Yep, so I know exactly and I guess it's going to both ends and I've really only looked at this one So I can't I can't say I know the transportation master plan does But I don't know exactly about how the rest of them. They do No So that's the transportation Yeah, I think I think also that's where where those were those specific actions may not exist That's where the master plan that we're developing can provide some of that guidance to say you know this is an area that you should really focus on without getting into the detail of Identifying specific properties or specific projects or specific tasks that need to be done just the general idea This is something that's important to us We want to make sure that it's included and that way it can be further fleshed out from that process A lot more You're welcome to stay I only ask because if you want to add anything feel free So I can put you in the notes So Introduce your family come on Nice to see you. Thanks for stopping in less. We don't have refreshments. I'm sorry Plus name All right, so it's not yours. Sorry. My name is yours. I'm smiter So So this is just pulled from the economic vitality plan that exists Yes, so you just copy and paste it a bunch of stuff in here. Yeah, so we're just trying to rework So that we're expressing support for that plan without being as detailed I think that's the general concept for the master plan. Yeah Because I think we don't want this to be like a huge unwieldy document that nobody is reading and there's the detail that you Need and all those other plans so there's not really a need to repeat it But we do want to be able to create Something that's useful value added because it's high level and somebody can actually see what the basic What's going on in the city and where do you want to go? So yeah And I think The council has adopted it the plan right Yeah, so it's already been adopted by the city But Amy you mentioned before I think this is appropriate if we see something It's not highlighted in the plan and we want to bring it forth we can do that Okay, I just get very detailed oriented because that's the way I roll so real me in Well, that's you know, we had this conversation and I'm looking when I when I first read this I thought Information for this plan because it's supposed to be a high level, you know broad right thing And we had I had the discussion with Eric earlier today And I don't know if just the goals or the goals and objectives are appropriate in here That's something we can think about, you know But I think a lot of the text that's in here. That's in the economic development plan. So We can also with this go back to what Paul talked about when he was here and incorporate You know graphics and pictures and that kind of stuff. I think I would pop it up. Yeah, I Think so it's I Look at this from kind of two different directions first There's the in in the in the city strategic strategic vision. There's the economic vitality piece that is kind of a is a is a Is a really high level statement. I Almost look at this as a as a next level down to where we're expanding upon that to some extent But not getting into that that additional detailed component the other part of that and part of the reason why I Am pushing back a little bit on some of the detail and including those specific actions is because as part of the statutory Requirements for a municipal development plan what this is is within every four years the Regional Planning Commission will come and do it A check-in to see how we're implementing the plan. And so if we're outlining all these very detailed actions That we're not doing anything with that's not going to look very good when they come in and say Well, why haven't you implemented any of these actions, you know It's we have to be able to justify or we have to explain what we're implementing and what we're not implementing and why So I think to to simplify that piece of it as well and to give us the most flexibility moving forward I think it sometimes Can help to just have those those higher level Those higher level points in this plane What I was thinking is It shouldn't have a policy in it. It should direct policy And in a couple cases it says very specific policy in it, right? And instead it should be something that's telling the policy makers including you what to do, right? In lieu of saying this is the policy to achieve that goal. What is the goal? So you're thinking stay with goals stay away from objectives Goals and objectives are good. It's just in some cases. This is saying this is our goal. This is how you're going to do it It's like you're going to operate the loan program and promote it in that way shape or form Yeah, no, but what we want to say is you need to commit resources to support businesses and And There's a way of sort of combining certain goals and then you could have objectives that aren't as specific but little Lighter, do you know what I mean? And so that they're not the policy, but directing the policy I think that's a really good point. So yeah, I mean if it's if we need to have another layer of goal objective Whatever, I think I think the key is not to get into detail right to whatever we need to do To provide the direction without having that specific task that needs that occur I was just going to ask Regina if she wants to go through this Yes, so I've got some Kind of specific questions to just sort of go through a little bit And as we're going through that feel free to sort of chime in on pieces along the way, but But this conversation is going to help a lot so we will we'll work on exactly what the right now We're titling it actions. Maybe we'll title that part implementation or something instead But we'll we can kind of figure out what that whole section will look like But outside of that First thing I kind of want to touch on is just generally there's kind of a green color scheme going on based on the I think what we're calling the seal Winnowsky seal is that what we call that? I'm calling it the official seal of the city of Winnowsky. Yeah, we'll not change I Thought is a leak doesn't the leak doesn't leak away. We're okay So just general sense does that feel right you want to go someplace totally different and this is you know This is not how it will ultimately look down the road, but just generally does that make sense too early to tell Last detail, right? It's like coloring. Yeah, right. They can't like content and then maybe by the end of this process We'll have a idea of coloring Yeah, okay so One thing so if you go to the very last page There's some red text before The indicator target piece There's three bullets there. I think it's the last bullet that's talking about this kind of general concept that What you'd like to see for the city and I think this is from I think this concept comes from you folks That's opposed to other commissions that one of the sort of broad overarching themes that you'd like to see is that you're really balancing development with an equal of investment in in public service needs and this concept of developing Development that supports public service related to public safety goals So this is sort of like one of the issues that's kind of really broad and sort of overarching to a bunch of different topics But it's something that was in your original outline That was one thing that didn't really get sort of captured in this text so far It can easily sort of be incorporated into goal three because it kind of starts to get at that concept a little bit And so we So sorry, it's your outline you have like oh from the original outline Yes Yeah, and basically I've been sort of looking back to that outline to make sure that all those bullets were sort of pulled in and Incorporated and that was the one that was kind of like well, I'm not quite sure this concept has has gotten any Feet so far in here other than it really does kind of tie to goal three that's in this section And I think particularly now that we're going to sort of stay high-level in the implementation piece I think we can like kind of get that concept sort of really incorporated in there without difficulty If that makes sense to folks So Can you for us who are kind of dense? Can you explain that or are you talking about there's three bullets? Am I looking the wrong place? So it's the very last Bullet of those three bullets. Okay What about the first two because I'm thinking the first one talking about Are the zoning districts right? That's I don't know because we want to go there. That's getting the weeds I have that one further down on my list, but we'll go. Well, we can go to that one first. I'm just Go go the way you want So what I'm talking about is the third third red bullet in that section And I think that merges in well with goal three which right now reads Maintain manage and reinvigorate the city's built a natural environment And it's a little bit more kind of broken out into some of those objectives a little bit So I think we can get that kind of incorporated in that so if that feels good to folks I can just I can just do that So just this general Concept that I think you guys were trying to capture with those two sentences And I could be way off on what you're trying to capture on those two sentences because this is from you guys originally So I guess from that sheet. I saw that as more like discussion points rather than like this is What we want incorporated at least that was my take on it I still think these things merit conversation before deciding what to include and what not to include Okay So this is why I should not be room Trying to say this in different way and something that Reading this and thinking about the economic development strategic plan Which will be cut at the appendix and the high level goals, but then what we mean as a city about Vitality, I think one thing that is kind of missing from this chapter that this bullet gets to is The economic what I think of as the financial or economic sustainability of the city and how we How the plan provides guidance to the council to you and the staff to think about how the city how city government to support city services can be as financially healthy as possible So looking at new revenue streams looking at diversified revenue streams looking at how The how tax rates and fees and fines might impact development or development potential And how those concepts Provide the support for the public service delivery, which I think is what what we kind of danced around in past conversations So how I interpreted that bullet and how it need to be integrated into the larger document is Not just how we are supporting the financial health of the external organizations in the city how we're supporting business and marketing ourselves and branding ourselves, but how what impact that has on us remaining an affordable community and Us having the sustainable revenue streams. We need to maintain our city services Does that help That definitely helps me I think it helps too. It's just a matter of Just thinking how and this is your job Reggie and how to how to get that Idea into this plan so it's not again into the weeds But I have all the trust in the world That's on camera, so yeah, yeah, and I think we could figure it out me, you know, if we are sort of Sticking with sort of a goal objective concept we can kind of bring it in there Or even if we're sticking with a goal level we can kind of make sure We get it in there because these really are these goals and objectives from the economic development plan are More external versus that then then city so maybe it just merits another goal that we add into the plan And I think it makes a lot of sense because a lot of times people don't think of the impact of development on the city On them their taxes in the city being a wide services that we want Okay All right, then we can take the zoning question that works So good question about whether this is sort of two in the weeds about something that should be Addressed specifically in the plan. So I don't know if folks know This question even as it's sort of framed. So currently you've got a couple of properties in the city that are zoned commercial and industrial One of them is Casvon Park that's owned commercial The other is where am I out that direction which is behind the I always forget what it's called country home Yeah And that is own industrial and it's very much in the floodplain and then the other parcel is north of Gilbrook Back half of Gilbrook, which is kind of on the Costco Colchester side of their industrial park So Typically it is helpful to have your master plan comprehensive plan help lay out the Concept of how your zoning should go I don't know that this may be something that's unlikely addressed in any of those other specific plans I think and so if we don't address it in the master plan, then I don't know that it's going to be covered Whether it's a question that the Planning Commission wants to make a decision on right now I I don't I don't know that I just know that it's been sort of a question for a while About what should happen with those properties. So would you put in there? like maps the existing land use with the zoning designation a zoning map and then future or is that pigeonholing us too much because The the Gilbrook and the Cass event specifically when we rewrote zoning We left it alone because we knew that there was going to be a lot of discussion on what should happen in those areas So that's something that that as a planning commission when we wrote we wrote it Figured we're going to come back and revisit that at some point. So I mean that's still on the table There has been conversations over the years about Gilbrook and what should happen up there but again, it's a it's one of those things that's going to be a a Lot of interest from a lot of folks So one thing we could say is that it simply Is something to be looked at, you know, we could sort of stay that high level about it to also to Address some of your question the part of statute requires an existing land use map and a future land use map the advantage there is we can define what our future land use categories are and Lay out a map that reflects that so we don't there's no there's no prescription for what future land use categories are and How we follow that we can we can determine it on our own for what best meets our needs going down the road Yes, okay, so we get a future land use map that that identifies specific Specific areas, but then we can also have that future land use map can say these areas are for future study and future analysis And that's to be determined. Okay. Yeah, I was wondering if for example those those three Areas you talked about if it can be a future could be you know industrial slash public slash, you know, just put a kind of a large Undefined thing in there for those areas. I mean, it could be like preservation and conservation of our natural areas, right? like Identifying that we have these that we value these and that we don't want them to be industrial parks just by like putting in language that supports the preservation of them but again that that I'm afraid that pigeon holes you went to I mean, you know down the road What if someone comes along with a proposal that's that's too good to refuse for the northern half of Gilbrook, I mean, and I think that's a conversation that needs to be done The whole community what do you want as opposed to us so I think that my preference would be to kind of Put multiple uses or some big general things open space, you know Like South Bronson has a zoning district. That's is it open space and industrial or something like that. I mean, yeah Essex has resource preservation Industrial, you know, I mean so I think we can do it so that It suggests there are possibilities here including open space or development and Take care of it down the road. So it doesn't pigeon hole us into Okay, all of a sudden the Gilbrook is Open space, but even if we say in this document preservation and conservation of our natural areas It doesn't prescribe anything. It doesn't say that Gilbrook couldn't become some eco-friendly development down the road or something It's just sort of this overarching way very few natural areas in a tiny city I guess I value those. I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were saying for those specific areas But that could be I guess when you're describing in the zoning that could be one of the descriptions if you're going to say Natural area industrial, you know, if you have several descriptors for that zone or whatever those parks are and if you I'm just saying you might have something about Natural areas and you might want to preserve them is you might have text to preserve those natural areas Even though that park might also be known as industrial, you know, so it sort of gets to it a little bit This is the economic vitality section, right? So right we have other sections that are right about To so I don't I think we're trying to think about this from the lens of Economics are we going to Economic development we want to encourage But natural areas and in recreation hours areas are also yeah potential economic. Yeah generators And I suppose it could be an overlay on the future land map of land map. You have the current zoning overlays of you know This is an undeveloped or natural area now something like that But let me let me stop because I think I think Abby bring up a good point because I think that that Most folks would agree that we want to preserve as much as we can you know, so and certainly Most of you know, most if not all of Casablan Probably will never be developed, you know, Gilbrook At least half of it will never be developed and maybe more Memorial Park the same way behind the industrial building It's never going to be developed. So But there's a level of development and like you could have bands down there that could Pay for something like that. So there's could be a do you know what I mean? Yeah, Casavan music or something that I don't know. I was just thinking of other things that Development of recreational economy opportunities and that would tell us them Indicate But a horse track down there rumor is there used to be one There's some beautiful pictures of a baseball field superimposed I Actually, but that's a very good suggestion Considering the types of Businesses that we have in our downtown Core a lot of restaurant businesses are trying to attract people here for Entertainment and recreation. So those kinds of opportunities are potentially very attractive And I think would be worth mentioning or something in the plan to explore down the road Because I know many times we're like, let's go get an ice cream and walk along the boardwalk into the castle exactly so that's So is that answer your question? Yes, that is helpful. Thank you Okay, what about the neighborhood designation district Yeah, so this Is the last question on my list only because it's not imperative that we get this answer right now But because it's sort of neighborhood. It's sort of economic development, but it's also really can be land use could be housing But so essentially you've got a neighborhood designation in the city on the gateways. So Malibu main street 15 the thing that a neighborhood designation essentially gets for the city is that developments If they meet a priority housing definition, which is essentially means some component of Moderate and affordable housing they're exempt from act 250 And Generally speaking I'd say in Vermont our permitting system is very complicated very Lots of layers of it and lots of repeated layers of review of the same types of things I would argue that when you see typically Is a place where You've got staff now who can review these applications And it's a place where really From a statewide perspective from a regional perspective It's an appropriate place for growth not necessarily everywhere like we just talked about with these natural areas But it's an appropriate place for growth. So My opinion is that you really don't need act 250 review at in the city You are zoning I think for the most part throughout the city Qualifies for the neighborhood design designation area throughout the whole city It doesn't mean that you're going to change your zoning to do tons more development in all those areas. It just means that you're Creating a An opportunity to not have to have a very complicated complex Multileveled development review process So just in addition and maybe in a conversation to pick up when you have a housing conversation If we if we build in priorities into the housing chapter around that kind of mixed income With a focus on remaining the affordable option we currently are Priority to the master plan. This is a way to incentivize that from the housing perspective lower the hurdle to entry point for developers to build to build Housing that has that mix of affordable and moderate income of housing and take away that Barrier of activities what becomes it's a way to incentivize that So if you choose that priority for a housing priority, this would be a Tool you could use to or you could suggest to the opposite Yeah, I mean and I'm not too concerned about where it ultimately lands like some of these questions all sort of Prompt because I they're originally inspired by a particular section that I'm in but it doesn't necessarily mean at the end of the Day that it makes the most sense to sit here And I think Jesse makes a great point that we probably don't need to come to a great Conclusion or decision on it Until we get to the housing piece and also this may be this is sort of a very in the weeds Specific action, which we may decide doesn't necessarily even need to live in this high-level plan So we can circle back around to it, but I did just want to Bring it up as a it's an option so Because right now you're saying it's just on the corridors. Yes. Yeah, so if we extend it to the entire city That's all we want to know. I mean does that make us have to sort of identify what those neighborhoods are? I Mean you wouldn't necessarily have to extend it to the entire city if you didn't want to I think because your zoning qualifies for the entire city I Don't know why you wouldn't just go for the whole thing But if you did go for the whole thing then would you have to give each one a neighbor name like a neighborhood name? I guess I'm just wondering because that might affect how you write your document if we're looking at different neighborhoods Or if there is got you um, I Don't think so, but that's a great. That's a good question. I think when we When you got the neighborhood designation to begin with on the gateways If we had a little bit more time, we might have just applied for the whole city at that point and it wouldn't have been like You know, it doesn't need to be specific really Okay, so you could just say doesn't it that tire setting we can address? Yeah later the designation only It's typically supposed to be sort of like a I Don't know what to call it a bit of a buffer on top of the other state designations And they can only be so big, but when you ski is so small to begin with that it actually Yeah so the question that pops in my mind is Does this need to be the plan for us to pursue that designation down the road kind of sounds like it doesn't really Um So that is a good question from their the state's requirements on how you get this designation And they are pretty adamant that they want your plans to be clear about your both your existing Designations and your intention for future designations So I think That's a that's a good reminder that I think we should be in there. Yeah, if we ever want to pursue it Yeah, okay, so I want sort of downfall if we don't Don't pursue it. It's an incentive like Jesse's saying, okay, you know But having it in doesn't tie us to going after it. It just allows right Right, yeah, I think the big thing with the state designated programs like neighborhood designation is that There are some statutory requirements that when they when the state goes through their application checklist if if they can't point to a Section your plan where it talks about the designated program Then you're not eligible basically so we'll need to include it even if we're not going to pursue it And that that goes for the the designations that already exist Maintaining the designation is also a requirement as well Okay, awesome. So I will I made notes myself to sort of put this on the back burner for right now See what comes up from the housing section and then we can kind of we can talk about this again But at least you've got a little bit of an intro to that Okay, so That's the end of my very specific questions for you if we want to Get into the plan a little bit more I Think there is this Question about the vision statement right off the serve right off the start So this could be a little bit of a can of worms in and of itself this conversation, so I'll kind of deferred to Mike Can see chair whether you want to get into this conversation right now or whether you want to sort of open this up if there's any other Specific things that folks want to say about This talking about this So if we have talked about this briefly before I don't know if either of you are in the room for that conversation, but the conversation that came up when the council and staff were doing our annual priority setting process was this small town feel phrase and if we want to be a Vibrant community with a small-town feel what do we mean by a small-town feel do we mean Small do we mean Single-family homes do we mean connected to one another do we mean a sense of community of pride? And I and through that conversation the council Said this is a good conversation to define or to have in the definition of process of the master plan So just as reminder, that's what Regina is talking about how do we define that term within the vision statement, and it's the vision statement correct And if it's correct, can we further define that phrase so Are you saying that if we kept it like this just in the plan there'll be a definition part and In the definitions will be small Here's what we mean Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure you see the definitions part what I guess in my mind how I think of it is one Does the planning Commission on the way in and make a recommendation on these words and should these words stay the same? And then to if you think they could stay the same There should be some kind of value statement at the beginning of this chapter that further describes what you mean by these words I think the phrase that the words that you just used a sense of community and pride is a far better and clearer statement and to me it's what small town feel is supposed to be capturing without some of the incompatibilities with the small town feel phrasing so I would be inclined to Move towards a to just change the small town feel to a sense of community and pride Personally have no problem with small town feel. I don't have a problem changing either If it's you know in the introduction to this section or whatever we talk about What's meant by small town, but I don't feel like it's nothing. I'm let it do what's that like I like small Like Vermont is full of small town We are not a small town like we are the densest city in the state So I just I think a misnomer But we still are a small town Graphically we're a small town, but we have quite a large population for a mile and a half No, no, I understand that the density but what I'm saying is we still are a small town in the global sense of what towns So I guess I would differ Yeah, what palace was saying where like let's say what we want which we want to be neighborly and we want to Have pride in our community. That's that's what we want, but I don't I don't think You're like Small town. Yeah, maybe not the best So I think it yeah, it doesn't it's because it doesn't really explain what it is I guess yeah, because it means so much more than what we're saying right now can be like um Their farmer you meet your farmer at the market, you know, or whatever Dirt roads everywhere Written it was very much We were trying to capture all these feedbacks from a survey Here and people listed things that you're talking about I know my neighbors I can walk downtown and see three people on the way there I love the walkable streets. I love the connectivity of the community I love that I can get involved and there are a lot of barriers. That's a very accessible place to live You're talking about all those things that reflect what we were trying to capture And so it's not going away from that Wasn't like let's stay micro in some way shape or form Does a sense of community in pride leave out anything that we want Captured, but I think it's pretty good Even like I haven't seen while maintaining. Yeah a sense of immunity impact. Yeah, exactly like we have it and as We grow and expand and develop we want to Maintain that exactly So So just a long-term vibrancy with a sense of community pride I like the idea though that What you were just saying that it's accessible. It's a small Space that is walkable and everything and when you say community and pride it doesn't really get to that Can we add a sentence to it? That says we're you know Everybody fits this accessible. Yeah, I hope that we have I mean that we have it Some part of the plan that we're going to be expanding on what That community piece means because that fits into our you know, we want the city to be connected by accessible past for For pedestrian sidewalks. We want to define neighborhoods better. We want to Create recreational spaces that the community can share in together. So I think that I Don't know if it's going to be said directly what that sense of community means, but it's certainly going to be in all of our sort of Thoughts on in the actual specifics of the plan are kind of I think aimed towards creating that spirit But yeah, I mean I agree the phrasing might be a little awkward here You might want to I'm gonna throw something out and Talk about top my head here instead of with a small-town field. How about with a neighborhood feel? If you want We I think one place we really failed here is we do we have a branding Have you guys read that? Package it so I just think from a link and as your wordsmithing from a language perspective that might be a really helpful document because he During his work captured this exactly like talked about it from his own research and came up with words I Would it maybe make sense to keep because the vision that's here is what's the community vision statement for economic vitality keep it as it is but then In kind of the introduction to this section maybe talk about what that really means and capture all these ideas We've just been talking about so that so that there's more of an explanation of what kind of what the vision means to to the city When you ski in this component would that be a way to to to not try to wordsmith this vision statement Because it was already developed for all these other processes, but still capture those concerns I personally don't like small-town feel enough to really want to get rid of it there I know that not everyone feels that way But I agree that it feels really incompatible to me with what we are We are literally a city and I think we have aspirations to be a model of Urban sustainable living in Vermont, and I don't feel like that Town Why can't we just get rid of with a small-town feel and just say maintain expand our economic development to ensure long-term Vibrancy I would be for that too, and we can just detail whatever else we want later on But it wouldn't hurt also to look at the branding I think so so this is in your email I will recirculate this to you, but if I can just take a moment I think I've read this to you before this is the brand story that will be at the beginning of the I think we'll be at the beginning of the plan so For almost a hundred years when you see as welcome strivers people looking to build a better life for themselves And their families were a small city where neighbors know each other for a city We're all our kids learn together play together grow together We're a community where everyone can participate in city government in neighborhood potlucks and our own in our lively downtown We're always striving to improve our city and to welcome our next new neighbors So I think that that I think since that's point That's what will capture everything you have just said about how we define small town and and therefore do we Change the language to reflect this that wasn't developed one with that strategic vision Sentence was written so I will resend this whole presentation to you all Is that the same thing as the branding packet that Seth mentioned it is This vision statement right here has been adopted by the council. Is that right? And so we really can't change it No, the council wants us to know the council wants to give us input I think So my recollection of the conversation of the council when we're doing the goal-setting This year so we have long conversation about the justice and instead of decide on the fly With only the council at the table to change it That the conversation was this is what the master planning process is for if we're going to change it It should be done through this visioning process that defines the whole plan for the community So I don't think the council directed you to change it but said here's an outstanding question that we're struggling with What do you as as public participants in this process? Want to recommend but my point is my point is it's a statement that's been adopted by the council so the council I would think needs to We could recommend a change to them the council needs to accept that But specifically this so in other words We're essentially right now. I'm usually stuck with this language because Because it's the adopted vision statement of the city Just the reason we stopped in the division statement in a very Very shortened span of time is because we felt like there was an absence of a master plans So we were really just trying to fill a hole with the expectation that there would be an involved process With very focused people like you guys to come back with a master plan I really but the and the fact that it's been organized around that is make sense from a theoretical perspective But I wouldn't think they could cut it outside of the line I mean, I hear what you're saying but eventually we would need to accept that So so I guess my we don't need to worry about The council accepting this at this point In other words, so what I'm getting at is if we today said let's cross out the last four words Or last five words whatever it is The council Could adopt that could say it next your next meeting. Yeah, it makes sense. We'll adopt that as the new vision change What I'm hearing is you don't have to go through that process So where are we are we in agreement about crossing out from with the field? I'm wondering if there needs to be a little more description of it. I do agree with it I mean I sit in in a small urban community, but I I don't want to do that either I just I guess I'm just not sure if that's enough well with the From the branding that's in there Yeah to describe it I mean, maybe we just we come back next time and we look at what was written and we well I think she was saying that that language is going to be included in the plan Oh, so why so I think that you know, this is just this piece But I think that the message or what we're trying to communicate is going to come across in that language is included And I think you're we're talking about putting that right up at the beginning of the plan So hopefully that's going to kind of set the tone and then they'll get to this section And this is about that vibrancy piece, but I mean the community feel part will already kind of right established So is that part going to be in the intro but not in this section Right, so I'm wondering if we do need to have something reflect back to that. You know, I mean with Maybe it's our sense of community you know as Just referencing because it's it's So I was gonna read it, but where are they gonna where they gonna You know, can we get that go back to it? I mean get it in there and then because I think there's so many parts It's hard to really see it all until we read it all. Yep. Yeah, everybody It sounds like doesn't think small town's the right small town feels right thing It doesn't sound like we know what the right thing is yet. So we can just like asterisk that I Think she said you're not alone Mike, but I'm not sure She agrees with everybody well, I don't necessarily like the words small town But I feel like that's an important part of This well because I feel like it's better better some other way to say it petite community I Don't I think because I think of when I start looking at other different cities and they're like big cities You could I sort of want the idea of What this place is in a way because I don't want you to go to this and not think it you think it's a big big city You know what that's why I think the small town is nice because it sort of gives an idea Population in size and everything like that But I don't think it's it's it's a city so it could just be a small urban center or small urban community You know, it's something that Yeah, I mean I guess sort of gives a feel of what it is right size-wise, right? I think There is there's what we are and there's also what we aspire to be true and that matters a lot in these plans, so This saying specifically the word small You know, we have aspirations in this plan that are not small aspirations. We have big aspirations to answer But I think that Just based on what Seth said before with the survey that went out that one of the things that attracts people to a new ski It makes them proud to be in the news ski is that sense of of knowing your neighbors and knowing Knowing your officials that work here and like that whole small-town thing. I think I Feel like that's important to even though we have big aspirations, right? I think I agree with that totally. I just think that that's not necessarily the exclusive domain of a small town I think that that can be also the domain of a well-functioning City Yeah, great good like infrastructure and programs. Yeah, there's a name the word neighbor neighbor neighborhood neighborly something like that Hit what we're talking about I don't think so because Like for me that feels like a Williston or like, you know, like the town's made up of neighborhoods I'm saying not neighborhood but like neighborly Well, maybe the what what Jesse read to us. Maybe we need to come back to take a look at that and Figure out How we can say it I think so so just as a as a clarifying question How critical is it for you all that we? tie this To the existing economic vitality vision and I'm wondering if that's where part of this hang-up is coming that because it's It is the stated vision as it says right to your vision that if we call it. This is the economic vitality section But instead of having that same vision we're just keeping the connection with economic vitality and then coming up with a new statement that talks about What where we're trying to go in the future with this plan This from when it was hanging here. Is that like verbatim? What was yeah, okay? Yes So is that maybe a direction we could go in that way We're not trying to wordsmith this vision statement to make it fit what we're trying to do and instead we can this is the economic vitality section and What we're trying to do with this section moving forward in in the master plan is X and that's what we describe here to try to capture some of these ideas as well Maybe yeah, yeah But not lose sight of what we've already got but try to pull in some of those other elements So it's not as directly tied to the existing vision That's there. I like that. I do would you as you're saying that I'm wondering would you stick the in the introduction to the municipal plan stick the vision statements Right there and then we've Then they're in there right and so they don't have to necessarily be right. We could do that That's all the chew on for the next meeting. Yeah, I mean, I think if that's the case either way this question needs to be solved Right. Yeah, is that vision statement the right vision statement as stated or does it need to? But I think This is helpful conversation. We'll sort of you know rework it give it a little bit more of an intro of This section that could maybe help and then what we can kind of circle back to that Okay Yeah, so I don't have any particular questions or anything in this section One thing I do want to point out is when you're when you're reading through this Probably what feels like is missing is some sort of Kind of more generic based demographics of the city like that's kind of like it's a big part about who you are Particularly who you are from an economic perspective? But just layout wise I didn't put them here because I'm anticipating the sort of more broad general Demographics will be in the introduction There's also Housing is hugely tied to the economic Vitality, but again that will have its whole other chapter. So a lot of the pieces will be there too So these are really like, you know, you're kind of standard economic pieces of information What kind of businesses aren't in the city that kind of stuff? I Didn't have any particular questions for you. I don't know if anybody has any questions or Thoughts about what's in there again? This is very text heavy. The intent is to not for it to not be that way There's Suggestions about how much can you square footage we would need to accommodate future growth, but I'm curious like how much Sprint footage do we have currently in commercial and industrial and retail and how much vacancy? I feel like that could be spelled out here somewhere because I don't really have a sense of like Are we fall? Are we at capacity? We have additional unused Industrial or commercial cities? Yeah, like where are we at? Like is it it would kind of be an indicator? How desirable is when you ski to locate your business? Are we at 90%? Capacity currently. Yep Great. Do we even have anything studies that have done that? I think some of a good amount of that is in the economic development plan and if not we can we could pull that together And that's easy like graphically representing things like that. Yeah Anything else in this section? Always welcome. I like you here One of the things that's gonna happen Hopefully we have One of the things that's going to happen during that time And hopefully is that the tip will expire so an opportunity you have in this plan is to talk about High-level goals and guidance for the end of that debt Do people understand what that means if one of the tip expires the Revenue that's now going to pay off the meanest move that will come into the general fund So then we'll have essentially new money to do something with we can return that to the taxpayers We can invest that we can grow programs. We can do other things So it is mentioned here under goals something objective 3dc It's To objective 3 and then see But it is you don't have to put it in here, but it would be it's going to happen during the life of this plant So if there are things that you want to Provide guidance on You could do that Issue not getting too far a little weeds. You know what I mean Because I don't think we want to say the tip money Should go back to the taxpayers because there's a lot of things Do you know how much that will be in today's dollars? they installers with property tax revenues and pilot revenues and other Other revenues in the district. It's about 1.2 million So higher general fund budget is about 6.8 million That's just the municipal that's what was the back in the municipal So starting in 2025 2024 is the last year And I'm not not saying like to be very prescriptive about it I'm saying value statement about use the opportunity of the development realized to the district to Invest in the community to invest in the resident something high-level around a little Morse essentially taking C and putting a few more sentences around it. Why does it say? higher types of plan for revenue generating activities so that's part of what I was mentioning before the The city being more financially sustainable right now were very leveraged to solely property tax So lots of other communities use other diversified revenue streams just so to think about that Those potential revenue streams that we could employ why did it why is that on the same bullet is the tip Because this was essentially this is what I was saying at the beginning that this was essentially that the statement made in that plan around city financial health Not about the financial health of our business sector So they just grouped under one sentence, and I think we have an opportunity in this plan to That that to expand that Okay, so bring in another Costco and get that One point something to bring in close history against every year What's that my streets can handle it We'll put it up and the Gilbert can come in through I You're already gonna get 1.2 million without that's right Okay, that's Issues that right from the Yeah, most all of this is great From the So the only thing that's not from the economic development plan is on the bottom of page 12 and that's because very Specifically the state needs us to talk about these designations. And so that's why those are there Wait now Now then the word documents of page 12 might not be the same thing Page 11 sorry Is the state Haven't they cut out tiffs? There's like six more something can be they saw the light Well, it's a very different structure That are in the process of All right, and then the next section I Don't know this is the sort of goals objectives actions I'm not quite sure that we're going to sort of stick with this as it is right now But Any thoughts about it? I mean, I think there were some suggestions earlier. Maybe sticking up the goal level Maybe going to the objective level or they're just in looking at this first section Is that are there any thoughts on that? Does those two levels feel like the right levels or maybe just goals? Seems like just In first place, I would say goals, you know, you mentioned like renaming it implementation. Yeah, I mean, but I wouldn't even go We've been moving away from actually having Implementation level specifics. Yeah, so just having a goal section doing our best on Making close the vision, right like that vision is not the right term, but sort of that step down But it's not to you in the weeds, but it gives us the opportunity to sort of Start saying what we want to see happen in the city without being so pressure for sure. I like the objective level because I feel like people are so wrong that like It doesn't like it's it's good to have To show some of the diversity of ideas that can be contained within the goal But I do agree that it's way too in the weeds at the next level down I think the jet is here or two in the weeds, but we could There's an objective statement and then there's point a whatever so I think like the statement of the objective Might be okay without the explanatory both points, but isn't that it? Scriptive we can have objectives right, but I think you could create new well objectives Maybe simplifying these so that they're not as prescriptive perhaps. Yeah, I look at one Yeah, I think some of the objectives are more in general than others for sure to generalize them Yeah But I agree. I initially thought just goals, but I think it makes sense to have broad objectives in there, too And we wouldn't necessarily need to Stack them like they are here where it's a goal and then several objectives It could just be here's our list of goals and then here's some objectives that we're trying to meet through those goals so that it's They're not as tied together directly as they are here Being nested underneath the objectives being nested underneath the goal specifically so And you never have more than three objectives per goal, right if we did I think it's hard to remember more than three things That's it we put the objectives Yeah Done Do you want more input like as we go as we look at each of these objectives or do you want to just You know the sense so the next time We see what you've come up with it Because I'm just go I'm just reading through these quickly and you know There are some that seem to be a little bit too specific Yep There's pros and cons to the specificity, right? We were talking about some of the cons before which is that It makes us seem like We have to execute on all of them and that is something you know It's complicated that so it gives a sense of accountability Which to some degree can be a good thing, right? The other thing though that is a big pro of specificity Not too much specificity because some of these haven't been examined in a great in a great level of detail But like we talked before when we started this process of this document being an opportunity to get Grants and other types of funding for particular projects and seeing that something is a priority directly in your municipal plan provides backing to be able to Show that something is a city-wide agreed upon Goal and desire initiative that can help us possibly get money to do some of the things we really want to do So I do think there are occasions when we want to be specific about something we want because that might be our opportunity But might it still be I guess if it's not covered in another plan, then yes It probably should go in but maybe it's general enough that it can guide you to those other plans that would give that a specific You know Jesse do you have a sense of like how valuable something in a plan is to getting getting opportunities But if it refers to another plan I don't know. I mean, this is the this is like the legal Document revision so like this. This is what has to pass through The public review to some some degree. I mean it's a public process and not every other document that exists And that's really is so I feel like stronger in here. Yeah, so there's There's different ways to go about doing this And it's a matter of really whether we are Incorporating other those all of those other plans by reference into this or whether they are truly separate documents a Benefit of incorporate by reference is they then have the same power Power that's what it has as the this document itself The Thing that can get a little bit tricky about that is those other plans will be amended over time Not necessarily always in lockstep with this master plan So you can have things a little bit out of whack, but It's not it's not the end of the world But if you wanted to Give that other stuff a little bit of standing you could that we could do and incorporate by reference, which is fairly simple I think obviously the things that are incredibly important Maybe you would just include and then things that are somewhat important are referenced Yeah, my sense is just reference it because If it's got the same power and even if it does change it's going to change based on the community's Theory the community's vision at that point. So it allows flexibility From what we're saying today six years down the road. I think that's a positive Like one of the areas where I was thinking we might want a little more specificity or isn't mentioned Really at all in here right now is we have a mainstream revitalization Project happening which probably is something that could be mentioned different sections of this plan, but in our idealized form of that You know and zoning addresses some of that, but like that's kind of an area We've specifically highlighted To make it happen. Yeah, and I think we want to encourage certain and business economic growth in that area And I wonder if it's worth some kind of call out specifically to that I think Main Street East Allen Street, so the gateways Yeah, the gateways and downtown Yeah, and it's interesting so the you know one kind of Critical component of a master plan is the sort of land use concept so a lot of those pieces kind of come in from a land use perspective and It's not like the land use piece doesn't fit Perfectly well into any one of these sections. So it's a good part. Maybe it's something that comes right in the intro in terms of like Some of those sort of broad defining geographic places and things that are sort of geographically setting the stage for Some of the priorities and concepts that you see sort of developed later on in each of the chapters so Perfect timing So I don't know I don't think Unless anybody has any specific thoughts or feelings about any particular goal or objective statement I think I can I've got plenty to work with and I can sort of move forward and come back next time with Some things reworked so so will we look at those things reworked so we can discuss at the next yeah And then you'll also be getting the first Jersey of the next chapter to I think it's municipal infrastructure. Yeah, and if we have thoughts or comments prior to that point Should we just send them to you send it to me? Yeah, I'll feed them through to Regina. Okay, and that way I can compile them So that we're not violating open-meeting law Doing a group talk and I can go by those that everybody can see what the comments were as well Okay, any else on economic vitality from anyone all right Review master plan schedule. Yes. So this was just real quick I didn't I did not provide the schedule to you all but as we've talked a little bit already and As Regina noted at the beginning tonight. We're kind of We've changed the order around a bit, but so next on the next meeting on July 26th, we will continue discussion on economic vitality and be introduced to the municipal infrastructure section so we're going to be You know splitting that meeting so we want to make sure we some time to do both and we'll try to get the new draft of Economic vitality out to you all we'll try to get both drafts out to you all in enough time to Review it before the meeting so we can have some good discussion and finish up Hopefully finish up economic vitality To move on to to the next to the next section and that's kind of the process We'll use going forward over the next several meetings. We'll finish one section introduce the next back and forth so Just to let you know that's what's coming up on the 26th And just to ask that there's You know We're saying we've tried to finish up with each chapter on the second meeting But also we will be sort of returning back to them all at the end as one solid piece So we might have a lot of things that sort of are sitting on the back burner Just because we it's just too hard to know without really getting it Comprehensively so don't feel the pressure that at the end of next meeting It's the last time you're gonna have any opportunity to look at this again and do some changes. Yeah That's a really great point I could have a really good dream about the word Okay, you'll review the public outreach Yeah, the only thing I wanted to note on this was that the I guess at the last meeting I was not Here because I didn't work here yet, but we it sounds like there was discussion on the poster which I have Final versions of that for you all to take and distribute so that that's ready to go based that includes the comments that you all discussed as far as I know And we did some initial outreach this week already With press release. I think there's a front porch forum post and things like that Regina has drafted a a post as well that we can use We did not send it out because it was we sent the other information already earlier this week But we have it ready to go that we can send next week or the week after whenever Kind of kicking off the process and letting folks know about where the materials are The email account has been set up the generic email has been set up to direct information to me Which I believe is on the posters as well and we're going to be hosting all the information on the city's website with some tangential referencing from the CCRPC's website as well, so I don't think there was anything specific That I will need to talk about other than just to give you guys the posters tonight We talked about I'm not sure how many were printed, but I have a stack over here It looks like they were going to be posted around town in places So you can take them wherever you want and we can do that too But they're for you to take if you if you want otherwise, we will take care of getting them out and about Where you where can you legally post things? I've never post I'm like you can't put him on a power fall, right? Like the community center So No, go ahead. So we will post them at our official posting stations We'll post them up here. We'll post in my senior center OCC the library in the school We often post things that scale on their bulletin board as well But if there are other places that you frequent if you want to put them up at your church or Rba or at other kind of public places at chicks market things like that That's why we want to you bring you a few more of their places in your neighborhood So your social circles that we don't necessarily think of in the official posting way Do you know in those like park boards that they have bulletin boards, can you post stuff or do you have to get a key? I didn't know if we could go down there. I Don't know. I just remember seeing like maps and stuff on there, but I don't know if there's We can certainly have Alicia run them around in parts And again, we talked about farmers market The first one yeah, the first one is August 5th and and Regina and I talked a little bit about this as well When we met the other day about whether or not we'll have enough material yet to even To present at the farmers market So we might need to think about what we would want to do if we want to keep those dates as far as Getting input from from the community on other topics, maybe upcoming topics things like that But so let's still kind of up in the air at this point I think but those are dates that we've got the dates right now. It's August 5th August 26th September 9th September 23rd are for one more time August 5th 25th 26 September 9 and September 23 First one could introduce you I think that's yeah Yeah And One of those dates might have changed so I can look I can look back to that So yeah, essentially what I'm saying is I'm happy to go It is very beneficial for there to be somebody like the planning Commission member there who's actually from the community to help sort of talk talk through stuff and We definitely did that for the form-based code project and it was you know, it's pretty great You know, it's a different kind of interaction. You're getting people for like two minutes. Maybe five minutes. So it's a you know, I don't necessarily think We have anything to get feedback on right now as as Eric was saying so it's a little bit more just like FYI This is happening kind of thing So I don't know how urgent it needs to happen before September or something so I don't know what up to you folks on on what you think On how quickly you kind of want to do that Okay Discuss August 6th City Council meeting. Yes. So this was something that was brought to my attention on Monday There's a joint meeting scheduled with the Planning Commission City Council and the Housing Committee Commission On August 6th. So just wanted to make you all aware of that to get that on your calendars and I'll let Jesse So Reminder the Housing Commission is looking has was stood out about nine months ago And it's looking at our rental and home ownership housing stock and trying to establish targets for that The council is very interested especially along the gateways especially on Main Street as we think about revitalizing Main Street Making sure we don't lose the opportunity of maintaining our affordability along the gateways and so looking at zoning updates Based on those targets established by the Housing Commission So there was some discussion about the Housing Commission and the Planning Commission Sorry at the Housing Commission and the City Council About wanting your three groups because you each own parts of that work to be on the same page and have the same Conversation so at the August 6 council meeting the Housing Commission will be presenting There where they are with this effort and some policy tools IE zoning changes that they would like you all to consider to incentivize the targets They're establishing so it's going to quickly come to you as were as zoning work to be done So to that end we felt like it would be Beneficial for all three commission or the council the two commissions to be in the same room Having this conversation, so we're cordially invited to the city council meeting on August 6 It also happens to be the same meeting as the public hearing on the pool on vote So yeah Is there a way to anyway, I cannot be here That's a big Council the council has been very concerned about this related to Main Street So they really want to hear the status update from the Housing Commission It's a broadcast meeting so you can watch the conversation and I certainly will be there Yeah, yes He doesn't say he's not fit enough to say no So we can report back and it's not there's nothing there you don't need to respond You will not be doing Discussion debating work You will be hearing what the work the housing commission has done to set targets and then any direction the council provides to Task the housing commission or the planning commission was looking at either targets or an ordinance adoption I'm assuming you could ask questions if we were there I Was just curious how we could So I'll call in It'll be interesting that the zoning Will be interesting in terms of Us fitting it into our Yeah Okay, so that's not a that's not I Regina just asked a good question with Several of you being out for the sixth. Are you also going to be out for the ninth? The ninth of August which is which is a I'll be just getting in Just like palace today Just want to make sure we'll have enough folks to have a discussion Okay, thank you anything else if not looking for a motion to adjourn Second all favor Yeah