 two, one, we're live. Welcome everybody back here to Segal Talks at the Martini Segal Theatre Center, the Graduate Center CUNY City University in Manhattan and it's for us week 14 of our series where we talk to theater artists and thinkers and curators from around the world but also from the Americas to find out what is going on in their minds and how are they experiencing this. I'm president at the time of Corona, the time of civil unrest on the streets, the time killings happen and demonstrations up there, statues are tumbling and it is a time where we all look deep inside ourselves and try to find out what is essential, who are we, where are we going to and where are we coming from, it's a hard time, it's devastating time for so many, officially over 46 million Americans registered for unemployment, I think it's down, registered now to under 20 million but still it's shocking, the developments in America where health insurance is so closely tied to your job, you lose your health insurance when you don't have a job, unthinkable in all other industrial nations, it is a truly a time of danger of health risk for all communities but especially those who have been on the fringes, who have been disenfranchised for such a long, long time and we don't know what will happen, it might be a summer of unrest, we have a government we don't trust, we have workplaces we don't trust, temperatures are rising outside in the streets, we are confined in small spaces and after two or three months we all are human beings react and differently to things, so what will this all be in the middle of this? We have our artists with us today, we have Ebony Noel-Golden from New York City and Kami Izanmi, we'll talk a little bit more about them later on, thank you so much for joining us but let me make a few very brief remarks, we now have worldwide over 10 million infections, people think it's 10 times higher, though there are 100 million cases, most probably 2.6 million infections in the US and 130,000 people have died, half a million people died globally, it's unprecedented numbers and in states in the US which is doing so terribly, it's led so terribly and not prepared of all, over all these decades, states like Texas, Florida and Arizona are experiencing such terrible outbreaks, even Pence all of a sudden now wears a mask and says masks are important and we're getting more and more information about the virus, people now developing hallucinations when they have the virus and also it comes back, it now looks like immunity might only last three or four months, more and more young people are showing up also in hospitals, not only they are the ones who are spreading them, it's things half of the people are between 22 and 40 and so we all don't know what will happen, US company Gilead now published today the price for antiviral drug, Remdesivir, they say it's between $2,300 and $3,100 for a five-day cure, it's an already existing drugs, economists say because it already existed, it costs actually $5 per pill, so it's shocking also I think in the face of that crisis that we have that the system is charging thousands and thousands of dollars saying oh we prevent so much more damage because if people would get really sick it would cost more, it just also shows what is so wrong and Broadway as we know when dark on March 12th and just decided today announced that it will stay dark to the rest of the year, most probably to early spring that means all of New York City's theater artists, technicians, light designers, sound designers, ushers are out of work, it's devastating and we do not really know where this will go, we don't see Broadway theater by the way doing the work what Ebony and Kemi are doing, they don't produce mass, they don't engage with their neighborhoods, they just close down and wait till they can make money again, we all love Broadway and they are a great source of employment and what they do but where is the social conscious of that great industry in New York City with five, six billion I think revenue a year, I don't know exactly the numbers. European Union will close still its borders, it will open for 12, 14 states which have a very good record, the United States will not be in it, Americans will not be able to visit because of the disastrous politics here that led to such high infections, I think only 16 infections per 100,000 people is okay for the European Union and Trump closed them down when he had just you know 800 or 1000 infection in the US without talking to anybody overnight and I think the US now as retaliation or whatever is perhaps also on the list but maybe for good reasons the US is 60 a day up to 100 per 100,000 people so it is almost 60, 70, 600, 700 percent higher than a safe number, a thousand thousands of people are still infected in Africa every every day, Brazil in Iran the numbers are terrible, India is producing a hospital out of cardboard with 10,000 beds, they don't really know what to do and if we come to New York City are we gonna talk today about New York City with these two great artists and community organizers, curators and cultural producers, New York City is looking for its soul there was a Spiegel magazine report about if New York is opening slowly last Monday 300,000 people went back to work, businesses, bars, barbershops reopened about 5,000 restaurants and they stuck to the playbook New York City, compared to Florida and Texas and it's working out last Thursday there were only 18 infections in New York City it was a thousand two hundred in the high days of it so it went down to 18 but still it's a devastating moment for the city we all love the New York City marathon is canceled 66 million tourists came last year how many will really come and will New York City really be what what it was and and the soul of New York City when it comes to what makes this city so different so exciting so great it's highly connected to Ebony and Kami in their work Kami who worked at the workers art center and is part of the great laundromat project which says it's taking change being an agent of change in your own community to have a joyful justice to make art build community create change in Harlem in the South Bronx and in Bed-Stuy project they're trying to shifting the world into a better place it was created by Risa Wilson and to gather community to organize it and to write its own own history it's a brilliant organization up to a million dollar if I understand why they have distributed for creative arts project that really create help and create the community and and we wonder well how they are doing now and Ebony who is here with us she's an artist scholar and a cultural strategist originally from Texas which has hit so hard and I hope your family and friends are safe she is in Harlem and she creates site-specific ceremonies life art installations creative collaborations and arts experiments that explore the radically image and visible strategies for collective black liberation and she founded Betty's daughter's arts collaborative and also the Jupiter performance studio which serves as a hub for the study of diasporic black performance traditions so both of them in a way are very close to what we do and we need some input some help some ideas and I think both of you found something also some that's very New York so I apologize from a lengthy introduction but it's a Monday and I think it's good to give an update also to the readers of the world so both of you thank you and since I see that Kemi you have your microphone on Ebony not Kemi how are you and where are you at the moment good afternoon to you and to Ebony thank you so much for joining and to everyone listening so I'm Kemi and I am tuning in from Lenape and Conarcy land now known as Flatbush in Brooklyn I'm on the sixth floor of my apartment building and I can hear birds which is a beautiful thing this afternoon and to your point yes I am the executive director of the Laundromat project and we make art we build community and we create change all things that we're still able to do in this moment and in fact becomes even more important to do but also to figure out how to do it in new ways particularly without being able to be in live physical space with one another has definitely been an interesting challenge to to navigate and we are a black rooted organization founded by a black woman majority blackboard run by a black woman in this case and we're POC centered so we really are interested in the spectrum of people of color and their contributions to this incredible city into the cultural sphere of this city and one of the first things we did when COVID became a reality for all of us was to really turn to our artists and ask how are you doing what are you doing what's going on and like we've heard from so many others surveys etc they at all you know most people's economic livelihoods were deeply affected in this moment and many of them had precarious gig economy type jobs be it a teaching artist or or some other kind of gig many of them were laid off people have those who've stayed in the city have you know struggled to do so as either they and or roommates have you know lost jobs etc so that's a real real real reality our staff is majority people of color 10 of the 12 and that's including two interns and people's families have been deeply affected by this and particularly folks of color in this city right so we it's it maps to the statistics in that way so we all know people who have been affected and in some cases at least for me a couple of layers out not my immediate family but I do know people have passed away so it's been an incredibly challenging time to hold space as a community of folks for the staff and as a community of folks for the LP which that build community part of our mission is really central to the way we do work and some of the ways that we've sought to respond is to keep doing the work and to do it more deeply and to ask questions and to listen and to be in community be it digital it's our fellowship program moved online we worked with our we work with about 10 artists who want to learn how to do this work more deeply they all engage quite deeply with ebony who is our cultural organizing consultant and has done that work with us for since 2013 or 2012 actually 2012 we also worked with our artists and residents to pivot their projects all of which are in process in really beautiful and deep ways and I can talk about that later if it makes sense and lastly we just for this moment we started a creative action fund so many commissions to artists to create work in this moment and really recognizing that what we could do and the gift we felt we could give and the way we could show up in this moment was to actually acknowledge and value the folks our community as creators so we had an incredible Ramadan concert by at the end of Ramadan by Zayn Alon we've had beautiful meditation pieces by Bianca Monet today we have at Terrence Trio is debuting an online exhibition called the language of intimacy again very much focused in this moment that was actually not a requirement they did not have to respond to COVID but many of them did because it was artists respond to life and respond to the moment and show us ourselves right so they kind of stepped up into that moment so we were able to support 27 artists across 22 projects and that's one of the things I'm most proud of in this moment is being able to show up for our artists in that way and continuing to be in deep conversation with our staff about how to show up for them and we've thought a variety of ways to do that we've been able to keep our full staff at full pay for this entire period and for C being able to do that through the end of the year so I'll stop there good afternoon everyone I'm so glad to be here thank you for inviting me Frank and Kimmy I am in the neighborhood of Harlem situated on traditional linen Lenape land and I've been in New York for about 13 years I'm very grateful to be able to say that I'm doing well I'm doing well I took the call to stay home very seriously and I've done that and I'm doing that and I'm listening to myself and listening to my my body my spirit and my community in terms of what I should be doing and how I can be a help and a collaborator with folks who I'm accountable to and so my work um in a lot of ways because it's so community rooted and community is always different every day um I find that from moment to moment I am having to navigate the changes in and what's happening in community and that I think has always been the case and in this moment um I'm learning very deeply about the muscle that I have developed if you will to be able to say okay there is a rupture happening here and what I would venture to say and I'm sure this has been said multiple times in multiple venues that yes there are ruptures happening now and there have been ruptures happening in the past and there will be ruptures happening in the future and the reality is this in my in my mind and in my sensibility is that um the people who decide how they will gather whether that's virtually the people who decide what needs to happen in terms of rapid response whether that's mutual aid or rapidly getting artists um money to make work or continue making their work whatever it is these are out there say ancient practices um that some of us have had to lean into or lean on but for for others of us it's a standard it is a standard and so I think this moment for me personally and for the work that I am called to do is a moment of a breakthrough of understanding that I the way that some of us work the way that we make art make theater make community make change is authentic to where we come from and authentic to who we are and it's never been wrong it's actually been the best strategy and sometimes that strategy isn't what's lifted up as the best sometimes it's at the shiniest sometimes you can't explain it you know but it is what people are going back to in a lot of ways it's kind of like okay folks need food who has food get the food to the people um and it's not a lot of paperwork or you know back and forth it really is what do people need who has who where the resources get the resources to the people and it's interesting because in this moment you know um actually right now um I am on the precipice as a as a as a as an artist on so many things right I'm celebrating a year anniversary of a large processional work that happened in partnership with the national black theater and a year ago and I'm on the precipice of making new work here in Harlem but also in weeksville um or in central brooklyn and um there are a lot of expectations when you are an independent artist when you've been commissioned if you will to make a work and these commissions are are supposed to happen you know that's the expectation and I think there's been something that has evolved and emerged for everyone in our field around humanity around what it means to produce and to make theater and to make work that is rooted in a community ethic and it's you know rooted in people being whole and human and not being producers of products and you know for others consumption and so you know when all of when everything when this rupture happened um I knew that I was I would have I would have to respond in some way but I knew I didn't have to respond immediately so I just sat down I sat down and um and that is also because you know I run a company a business that is also needs to be in rhythm with arts and culture communities and organizations if my clients or collaborators are not ready to move then who am I to say move who am I to say have the meeting who am I to say let's make a rehearsal right and so all of this listening all of this waiting and being patient and being responsive and not reactionary is what I I mean I think I would want to do it that way even even though um it was it's challenging I don't actually don't but I actually don't know any other way to do it right um and so what this time for me has been about and I know theaters happen in buildings I know theater happens in buildings dance happens in buildings but for for me and for the folks I'm collaborating with this has been a very um a beautiful breakthrough because I'm able to collaborate with people who I would not be able to get to New York my collaborators on the works that I'm building right now are literally all over the world and they we figure out the time some difference and we get on this this this interweb and we do the things and I am reminded and I will I will say it as often as possible as loud as possible that theater is about people theater is about storytelling theater happened before buildings existed in in regards to you know you must make theater inside a structure we all know that but there's an economy around that that actually goes against you know a capitalist framework so what are my friends doing what are we doing we're making theater and dance in our living rooms we're making theater and dance in our in our parks we're making theater and dance on on the in the virtual space and what I am learning um I just had a virtual um salon yesterday an open studio of sorts that is um showed some deep listening that I've been doing around a project that I'm building and what I'm learning in this very real current moment is that as long as we people are here theater will happen well it will happen and if the theater needs to be on zoom then we will zoom the theater we will do it we are we are resilient but we're also creative that we're artists we always are finding a way to do the most with the most or the most with the least anything in between and so I'm I will I will go back to what I was saying at the beginning of my my check in um my goodness I'm doing well because because the people I'm collaborating with did not give up we were we rested we waited we were afraid but we did not give up and in that not giving up the people who have the coins to support our independent processional theater they did not give up so what are we doing we're figuring it out as we go we're making the road as we walk it I think that's the same and flying the plane while building it and um but isn't that always where production starts we never know I mean I never know how it's all going to come together but I definitely think leaning into the challenge and the uncertainty um and building a practice that is in relationship to that is where I am and where my community is and we are making some of I'll have to say I'll say this and then I'll move back I'm actually so excited about this work we're making we're not rushing into the studio we're not burning resources every penny is accounted for in a very significant way every penny I you know when I'm I'm the I'm the kind of intermediary between the commission you know commissioning organizations and the people who are making the work and I know that that money is going to pay someone's rent to make sure someone's child can eat to make sure someone can make their own art and that that you know in this moment I'm I feel like the art is a conduit for people being able to live fully and to live with dignity um and whether it was this moment or some other moment I would want that to be the case for my role in um in practice I hear that so deeply if you don't uh uh ebony because it does feel like my instinct certainly as a person but also the the instinct of uh well LP the laundromat as an organism right um was to lean more deeply into the work because we had been doing the work so once we realized there was a matter of shifting tools not the work but just like oh we'll have we won't be meeting at the new school to you know or downtown arts or wherever we're going to be meeting on zoom but we're still going to be in community do the work lean on one another make space because it was and continues to be a really difficult time so to allow grace uh for each other um to allow space for each other to to shift and pivot and and step back and step uh uh you know move back move forward etc it was leaning more deeply into ourselves rather than making any significant shifts and one of the things that I felt so deeply in this moment um that became clear for each of us whether we wanted it to or not um particularly as arts institutions was our deepest values were immediately on display based on how we reacted and who we thought needed to carry the weight of the moment um so ebony thank you for continuing to just talk about people and our recognition was really clear that we were talking about specific people that we could name we could name their children we can name their mom at home that they take grandma they're taking care of etc so we couldn't start a conversation with from a place of scarcity and loss we could be afraid but we did have to keep going forward and to figure it out and to do it in a way that centered people and needs emotional uh psychic um economic social etc and to lead from there and to lead with always with the idea of people was never abstract who we were talking about be at our artists or our staff or our board or our community members it was literally just no abstraction to hide from uh or to hide within and it wasn't our instinct to do it anyway but um but it also just I don't even know how we would have navigated this uh in abstraction as opposed to very specific folks and recognizing that culture only had a more um important role to play in this moment and that people wanted to turn to to their creative mojo um as one of the assets and one of the healing tools and one of the uh justice and liberation tools that they had at their disposal and had had for generations so being able to lean more deeply into ourselves and the real thing has been other folks recognizing their lack of muscle in that area and hopefully the need to build that muscle and that's been certainly in the invitation the demand the admonishment um etc over the last few weeks as for those who didn't have that muscle and needed to build it out more that the the demand has been well now is the time there's there's no time to dally um and that's been an interesting um uh thing to witness and also to be navigating ourselves from a very different place what does new york city mean for both of you what needs to change oh my goodness frank that is a huge question what needs to change okay well i'll i'll start but this could be a litany right and i won't i won't go into a litany but i'll just talk about from the perspective that you know kimmy and i are mentioning about what does it mean to live in a people-centered city what do human beings need to thrive not just survive but to thrive and we know these things right we know these things and we know the the socio-economic and the political reasons why some people are doing just fine in this moment and some are not so what do we need we need universal health care what do we need we need affordable housing what do we need we need we need schools that are equitable and you know prepare young ones to live their best lives in the present and into the future what do we need we need a food system that that doesn't work against our holistic well-being what do we need we need spaces where we can um express the fullest capacity of our lives creatively you know um we need um a city a new york city that um that is actively working to um stop the killings of black trans women we what do we need a lot of things we need a lot of things and i mean i i could go on and on but um you know new york city it's tough it this is a tough place and um it's also a place where people come to dream and to vision and to you know to be something they could be in any other place in the world you know and i do think we need vision we need space to dream we need um space to fulfill our dreams not just dream but then be able to activate those dreams um yeah i think i think these things that we need are not just about what new york city needs but it is what new york city needs too um we also you know we need to pay artists more we you know there's a there's a whole litany a whole road i can go down around what people get paid and there's a lot of of of in our in our industry of theater in particular and dance a lot of folks are pushing for visibility and transparency around pay um and that is that is really a big deal right now you know and um and so i mean yeah yes um kimmy what does new york city need you covered a large swath of it and i really appreciate you for that um because in the end it's it needs to be a city where people um can stay can thrive can be the best version of themselves and particularly our black indigenous and other folks of color um to one of the many things and we know this now that um uh covid uh made clear to others um to all of us including those of us who had the privilege of not having to know this previously was how much we're actually dependent on people of color and how much we're dependent on low income folks and how much we're dependent on each other to keep the city going and if we really value that as we have learned we should and need to value in this moment how do we respond to that now and how do we respond to that when covid is over um to your point around issues of pay um how do we uh create housing that allows people to live here with dignity how do we take care of transit the number one question anyone has about reopening is like how am i going to get to work new york it's it's not unusual to have a 45 minute to an hour hour and a half commute one way uh speaking as someone who had one of those uh 75 minute commutes um that's a really long distance to go and to be worried about it the entire 75 minute distance and to have to go or to be forced to go one of the things i discovered in this moment i i do know how to ride a bike i like to say um however i've never ridden it on a city street um but in this moment like everybody else i'm like trying to figure out what are some of the options well i live in a neighborhood that doesn't have city bike and most of my staff live in neighbors that do not have city bike which is our bike share program that was brought on by um in the bloomberg era and very deeply from the beginning not equitably distributed in the city was not treated as a public resource it was treated as a special resource um and special resources of that nature don't make it into black and poc and indigenous communities in this city um and just as a very practical example like that's unless i decide to buy a bike and my staff members decide to buy a bike we actually can't use that in this time and that would be a really incredible thing to have at our disposal to be able i only work three miles from the um lp's uh future space in in central brooklyn three miles that's not far i would learn how to i forgot how to navigate a city street uh for three miles but i i can't do it through the the uh asset that is meant to be a citywide asset for everyone so those kinds of fissures and the ways that we decide who deserves the commons who gets to participate in public goods things that are ostensibly meant to be public goods but that really aren't universal health care um etc these things being tied to jobs well most so many of us in new york and particularly along income and um racial lines um are tied to jobs that don't have health care or um that have very precariously placed health care so again if you were furloughed or lost your job right away that's no longer something that's accessible to you so that sense of precarity being built in is the thing that needs to disappear there's so much freedom that i can imagine for us on the other side of universal uh health care equitable uh transit um affordable housing um schooling that does not treat us um as disposable and as criminals if you're you know in a high school the wrong high school in new york city or if you go to our public universities are an incredible beautiful assets cuny and suny systems but they are so incredibly under resourced and they're the most diverse uh entities and you know this right um in this city and it seems like the more diverse you are the less access you have to resources so if we could flip that we would be very much on our way um to a to a city that allows folks to thrive and cultural workers are part of the world right so that's something that we're not separate working class folks and and cultural workers have a lot in common uh when it comes to all of these issues um and we have uh education bills to go with it school loans oh my goodness can we talk about abolishing school loans uh i think yes 100 percent indeed indeed um i think you know i'm just as i listened to kimmy we you know this has been coming this has been said a lot over the course of this you know this time of rupture and breakthrough um we just need to burn up what the old the old normal was and and start to really lean into vision about what what do we what how do we want to live you know and i know that this isn't a simple i'm saying it as if like yeah let's not do that and now do this i know it's not easy but if if i'm going to be in righteous struggle around how to live in this city and frankly anywhere in the world i want to do so in a way that is in deeply deeply thinking about what people need to thrive you know i'm not saying it's easy you know there's a whole in this moment there are a lot of people you know saying very vocally we need to abolish the police system we need you know how do we go from that to not having police i don't have that in my in my body as a as a response but a lot of people are figuring out how to reduce harm in communities how to increase care in communities how to reconfigure because we know you know that we can if if we want to if we really want to if we want to think about how to really build whole safe caring loving communities that is a righteous struggle that i would like to be in and i feel like in some ways you know that is a tie to everything that i do um and i would like it to be even more rigorously tied to everything that i do um since since we both of you also and we you know work in the theater and performance world and one could say theater began was the greeks and it showed that there was fate and you couldn't escape there were the gods things were decided this is what's going to happen it was not in your hand often even christian beliefs were in a way like this then slowly you know through money and others the individual came out the servant was on the middle of the stage after the kings and shakes they were on the stages and individual voices came up and said no what i think is our significance and then there were realism you're re-portrait the world as it is and and then slowly was brecht and others said well it's no longer enough to portrait the world as it is milo route that this on the program we have to actually change it so um and the next step in a way is you know a break a call for action brecht had mother courage we said just look what she did and then you make up your own mind you know it doesn't work what she's doing be better but the next step and i say both of you are part of that new world or the future of it the next step in a way is to engage with the community with the people and they are in the center of it there's the german company remedy protocol that also works and that way with the experts of the everyday or the documentary theater movement where you interview people so what you guys do is actually say no i'm not the writer who wants to have his play the director says you say let's look at community how do we empower people they are in the center i saw the project the lp puts together people who have ideas you support them and you connect and many people around the world say of all our talks whether it's indonesia or belgium whether it was south africa or whether was hong kong they say this is now at the center and what you guys do i think is actually part of anticipating a future where the even the artist is perhaps no longer as much known people said kemi did it all eboniva but these people are the people of the neighbors are in there what is missing as you also said from the broadway world do they engage with me town do they do projects with the people who live there who are in the meat packing district or um health's kitchen i don't think so and support the small theaters around so tell us a bit about what you felt in that community why do you do that and what works what could people also listeners from other countries what could they learn what do you do why do you do it and what works i'll uh jump kemi go ahead uh so we think of ourselves always as part of a larger community i was referring to people earlier and art workers are you know very connected to working class folks and people engage in various kinds of struggle um that affects their lives also as art workers and for the laundromat project as an institution um as a black and poc institution it's similar for us we really think about this as how are we engaged within a collective community how can we do work and and support other organizations and or uh art workers in a way that says if it's good for me if it's going to be good for me it has to be good for you too right like that sense of we're in this together um is very central to our work and our ethos and a lot of that comes from listening deeply um from being present um in the sense of you can't know if you're not there right um and in that in this moment there looks different than it might have looked six months ago again which would have been very physically based um but checking in talking going to town halls uh looking at social media and where people are listening to reading and listening to ancestors as well as you know trying to be the ancestors we want to be for somebody else um that sense of um time being very circular and that sense of uh when we're we don't get one one of us does not get to thrive unless all of us are thriving something that ebony said earlier that really um uh spoke to me is this idea that so and that you were also just saying in fact this idea that so much of what we already know to do or so much of what we're discovering needs to be done right now has already been done by a lot of different communities who have to do it and or and I'm again talking about smaller uh arts organizations community-based arts organization BIPOC organizations and the people within them that make them thrive so Black Indigenous and POC communities have had to depend on one another have had to um thrive as a group of folks um because there was no way to kind of do that alone for long um and uh being being in a moment when that kind of way of approaching the work and the doing and the being um how to be in the world um uh and having that lifted up in this moment as one of the possibilities is kind of like it's already there one of the artists we have worked with is uh Lisania Cruz and she on her Instagram over every every week or so she posts like themes that she posted last week she posted like here ways that we hold up care already these are the ways that we already practice being in a community of care so to the example of like what do we do it what would the city look like what would society look like if we if we centered people and care and the care of people um she kind of started pointing out this is what already exists here's how mutual aid societies are working here's how artists supporting one another here are sussus which is you know people putting money together to be able to to um fund their big dreams here's how this sense of being in community as a verb community is something that's active something that you do already exists in so many communities and it's about saying it we already value this how how can we lift up what's already happening and say this is something you could do to whoever the you is um and be valued when we're asked to teach the work in a more active way to be valued by you know being paid and having that be valued in scene and not just taken right so how do we um uh do this in a non-extractive way because we're already doing it then have been doing it and hold ourselves in deep legacy one of the things I would love ebony to talk about because I feel like there's something I really learned from her is the sense of how legacy functions um how that sense of ancestral being a continuing plane and um and we think about that organizationally from every anyone from you know the Harlem uh uh Renaissance but also the studio museum and the block arts movement and Philips Wheatley and and a lot of the people who are part of the LP come from all over the globe I I'm Nigerian-American except we're pulling on a lot of different traditions in that sense of being grounded um is also really important yeah ebony could you talk about legacy before we just one question could you give one or two or three examples of projects where you say these ones be commissioned and they stand for this for our viewers our listeners what are what are longer my point we say this actually exemplifies specifically what we do yeah theaters could learn all around the world say because they could do the same they could have a camey in as part of their style and then ebony I would love to hear about ongoing project but yeah maybe some absolutely I'll give you one because I know the time of the essence so meal to heal is a project that we're supporting right now um and it is by two artists who are Filipino-American Xenia Diente and Jacqueline Reyes um and just as an example of caring Xenia had been an artist fellow in 2012 and we support a lot of our artists over and over again in new ways and forms we stick with them over time as opposed to just being a one-time thing and you know in theater that might be you know people tend to you know maybe commission a project or you know different plays over years right so that same ethos of we value you we think there's something beautiful here we want to go on a journey with you as a creative person so Xenia came back at this year and became one of our artists and residents and brought along Jacqueline who had been a volunteer in the past with the LP and they were interested in partnering with small businesses Filipino businesses and Woodside um and other parts of that part of Queen's Elmer's Woodside Jackson Heights but there's a particular part of Woodside that is known as Little Manila um and so very much a hub of Filipino businesses and this is a neighborhood that has tens of thousands of Filipino-Americans it is a Xenia herself grew up in this neighborhood and they were planning to build a series of partnerships with small businesses and artists leading up to Filipino-American month in October when they would do a festival well COVID landed and literally before the end of March so our last day in the office was March 9th and before the end of March they had already figured out a pivot for their project um partially grounded in the fact that like so many Filipino families um they could each trace including their mothers women working as nurses in this country because there's actually been a structured pipeline of Filipino women coming to the United States to be nurses and and all of the economics that might imply right about what they're doing to care for their families back in the Philippines as well as the communities they've built right here so they immediately got in contact with the Filipino Filipino-American organization NathCon is the acronym I don't remember all the words um and started saying let's look and they were in that part of Queens again Elmer's Hospital is right down the street from where Xenia lives and we all know almost those of us in New York and elsewhere probably know that almost Elmer's Hospital emerged very early on in COVID as uh kind of emblem because people were dying there and etc like um so they were right down the street and one and knowing that there were a number of Filipino Americans working at the hospital as well as neighborhood nursing homes other community care centers so also knowing that the Filipino-American businesses that they had planned to partner with suddenly had no business or severely reduced business so they immediately set up a GoFundMe to raise money then they took that money paid it to a variety of Filipino-American businesses particularly restaurants in Little Manila area they took those meals once a week and fed them to Filipino-American health workers and whoever else was in their unit but they did research to see which nursing homes or particular units had high numbers of Filipino health workers be their nurses and orderlies doctors etc took these incredible meals and gave them to the health workers who were working so hard in the middle of this pandemic and this was April when we were peeking um and fed them once a week as a way of saying thank you in the meantime Jacqueline who's an incredible graphic designer and actually works for the United Nations um she designed a beautiful mural and was able to install it just two weeks ago outside one of these restaurants she painted it in her bedroom uh 24 feet not it's you know it's it's a really big one it's the it is the first Filipino mural in the neighborhood that is known for its Filipino businesses and residents but they have never been able to do this and apparently from reading news articles and talking to them there had been conversation about this forever but now there's this permanent mural outside this restaurant that wishes you welcome in Tagalog right so that's that's a way that was about centering people centering care bringing in art bringing in culture bringing in the tools that artists had around community care and setting up essentially a mutual aid system that fed itself they are continuing to partner with small businesses and artists and they're still working towards um a variety of projects and things that will be part of the Filipino-American history month in October but they were able to still take this project and move it around in a way that this moment needed it to move um in response so that's one example Ebony you have time yeah yeah so um I want to make sure I'm I'm responding to the question like what are some ways in which um can you repeat the question Frank I want to make sure I'm clear well your your work which I see is artwork your tour your work you know first of all your project where you say you are so excited about at the moment I would like to hear more about but why do you do it and what works best in your long experience for over 10 15 years working in it for all for everybody who's looking at how can we do that how what advice do you have and um think of some examples because people don't know haven't done they think we produce a play by a playwright and then you come and pay money and you go home which is great and I see it or it performances the big house as Hansi Slema said but it has many rooms this is one but you are opening a new patio you're opening a new addition so I want to know from you what do you do what works yeah and I will I will say that what I'm doing isn't new to Kimmy's point I'm in a tradition of making work that is ancient and um and I I heard I heard your kind of trajectory and lineage of theater and I I come from a whole different school of thought and practice where theater is ceremony and theater is ritual and you know theater is everyday life and sometimes we put that on stage but it happens every day so there's a deep sense of storytelling and what stories are used for to tell the news to talk about how people got to where they are to talk about how people have changed and to talk about people's connection to the land and so on and so forth and that's an ancient practice um and I think you know you mentioned Broadway um and Broadway is not my default I think Broadway has its place and a space and a lot of you know stories that are told there we need to hear and that's not my default so there is a way in which you think about the intersection of culture institution and theater company or whatever and that is for me coming through places like the ensemble theater in Houston Texas um the National Black Theater here in Harlem, Billie Holiday Theater in Brooklyn and I could go on and on so there is I think rooted in um uh uh diasporic black aesthetic or diasporic African aesthetic this idea that theater is supposed to do something theater is supposed to do something beyond the show and um there is a there are a whole uh you know I guess a whole um cadre of people who say if you need all of those things if you need theater to be a social justice institution if you need theater to be social services then you need something other than theater and I think those people should go and and and go on and do what that is but in my communities the theater in a lot of ways like the the spiritual community or the church is the hub is the center of so many things so many things that happen there right and that to me and it's also an intergenerational thread so you go to the theater when you are a child you go to the theater when you are an elder and there is something about the stories that are become the rituals that happen every year but then there's also the new voices that are coming in I am not unique in the work that I do and um I am more so a student and a practitioner than someone who's figured some things out what I will say as a as a student in practice and a practitioner is what we've been saying here um the the kind of I would say the European constructions of the playwright and the choreographer and the dramaturge and and all of these people um and that you do your one thing in a silo and then you come back and you're in service of the product um that doesn't seem to serve my community's well that doesn't seem to serve um the the well-being of the institutions that are supporting the work but the well-being of the people um most often in my communities you can I could I could actually say hey I want you to come in and be a dancer and that person is actually better at building constructions and set pieces and and the ability to be able to move around and do things that are not on your resume is definitely I would say a dismantling of this kind of hierarchical notion of what theater is supposed to be well there are folks for 50 years there organizations for 50 years that have been saying you come here to heal you come here to eat you come here to learn you come here to get inspired you come here when you can't go anywhere else and that's my default that's my default theater as a place of visioning theater is a place of connecting theater as a place of remembering of storytelling and story gathering of responding and being and most often being relevant to what the people need now relevant to what the people need now I think you know um my work in particular is is collaborative and so I might be the one that gets the commission but I am not a one woman show as soon as I get whatever the commission is I am immediately thinking about even maybe sometimes even before um because I will find a way to make the work that I my communities are asking me to make regardless of if I get a commission or not and so but right now I'm I'm on an incline and I'm I'm getting resources and so what does that mean that means there's a politics um a politic around who I bring into the room um and and people watch that people watch and it's not there's some there's some expectations that oh ebony is a black woman so they're going to be black women women in the room yes you're right but there are also going to be people who in the room who often don't get an opportunity to um you know to be their fullest selves in their creative capacity and I think there's something that we can all learn and I am learning about what it means for a theater community to accept folks where they are and to say while while for at one moment the goal may be a show there are all of these touch points along the way that allow you to be fully embodying yourself and that means for me that theater is not just an artistic practice but it's an organizing practice it's a practice that's in relationship to what we need to amplify in the world and what we need to dismantle in the world and am I going to dismantle everything because I have resources to make a make a play or make a show or make a processional uh no but every time we have an opportunity to gather to talk about what needs to change and what should change and how can we be more ourselves in the space and there's a rigor in that there is a definite rigor it is hard it is hard to hold space and say we know there's a show that has to happen but I actually care about how you're how you're feeling right now I think it's I don't think it's um different from what Kimmy has to do like there there are responsibilities there are report backs and there is accountability that's involved and how do we be more human in that process it means that sometimes you know some people are not ready they're ready to do do the five six seven eight they're ready for the play but when I say as I've been saying is we are not making a play we're making a ceremony and this is going to call on parts of yourself that have nothing to do with you being an artist uh some folks head for the hills this is that's too much vulnerability it's too much intimacy um and and actually for me I'm looking for vulnerability and intimacy and to learn how more how to be more vulnerable and intimate um through my art making it is a way that I can learn how to be more vulnerable and intimate in my just regular life and so what am I saying here I'm saying that there's a there's space for it all there's space to be able to go to see a show and have a good time you know I one of my best Broadway experiences was going to see Fela I was like oh my goodness this is what I wanted to see my entire life I've never seen this in my entire life and then there is space to say come to Weeksville Heritage Center where we are going to be thinking through and unpacking what sovereignty and agency and liberation looks like by remembering and remixing the hit that our legacy um there's space for it all there's space for it all I am not interested in and this is a question that I've actually been asked a lot here recently I am not interested in battling Broadway I'm not interested in trying to make Broadway do something I'm interested in doing my own work I'm interested in doing the work that I have been called to do that I've been mentored and trained to do that I know I'm here to do I am not here to fight Broadway no matter what's going on on Broadway and I'm sure there's a lot that needs to change I am not fighting Broadway I am working in my corner with my crew building the stories and the practices and learning how to be a better human myself instead of you know a fight a reactionary fight and so I'll just say finally you know there's something about collaborating with organizations that are not theaters to make theater and right now because I'm in a moment you know where I'm able to look very deeply in two directions a project that I'm building with theaters and a project that I'm building that is that is with an heritage center is what the archive has to offer us Weeksville Heritage Center has such a vast archive and the approach to bringing a story to life through an archive that I would not have any access to in any other way is written that archive is about how community is built I am learning so much in this moment because the archivist there have taken an interest in my art project to learn wait wait wait so how does a community actually get built from just grassland and swamp and trees um that's something that I think is a is a good way to use my time and so that's where I am yeah yeah I know that that is good advice we at the seagull of course are closer to the experimental theater the downtown world the global theater that has no no real space in in new york city the melting pot that perhaps never really melted and um but I think the the contributions you make but tell us a bit maybe you're coming closer than the project you say I'm so excited about you tell us a bit what are you doing at the moment what is it right now we just wrapped up our first um phase one of devising it was amazing yesterday I'll just say yesterday okay so tell us a bit what are you doing what American art is doing at the moment so that's important to hear well I don't know all American artists are doing but what I am doing is gathering people from around the globe to meet on zoom to activate weeksville's archive and build a story that is both in the tradition and the legacy of weeksville but where there is a portal that open opens and we're able to see and tell stories and build stories that are based in a practice of building a black liberation colony I don't have a script I'm actually not a playwright and so the idea is that we come together and we we use the archive to imagine possibilities that's what my theater is right now imagining possibilities and so literally for I don't know two or three 29 hour processes it was like let's read this piece of the the legacy let's read this piece of the archive and then write a poem about it or imagine a scene about it and we actually don't have to be in the same room to develop stories that we want to share when we can be in the same room and so what we have now is a whole a score of the entire piece and a score of all of the cultural events and community engagements that we are going to do to help activate a contemporary conversation around reparations which is a major theme at weeksville right now what is reparations how can we remember it and how can we build it now and so yesterday um we had a virtual salon a digital liberation salon where my my friends from all over the place came together and we did short duets and longer conversations and a work in progress showing that's based on what we've been doing for most of the spring and into the summer what I think artists um I want to I'll give one give one um nugget of um advice or an invitation if you will um for artists to listen to themselves and understand that just because everyone is spiraling you don't have to spiral um just because everyone is making statements and doing the things you don't have to that this is a moment of a radical breakthrough and for me understanding the the chaos of that is I'm getting through it by remembering that many of my my community members and my elders and my ancestors have been through many ruptures and breakdowns and breakthroughs and I'm here because of them all and so it's it's scary but it was scary before march you know and so the idea I think it will be to listen deeply to yourself and listen deeply to the people you are accountable to and make art from that space I know people have gigs and contracts and jobs and all of that um but in the midst of doing all of that where are you my invitation is to find and continue to be intimately connected to you individually and you your people that's that's very very very significant advice to you know listen to find who you are and in yourself and and you connect to people and I like your idea when you said earlier not to you do a show but I'm interested how do you feel you know that's quite quite a quite a concept quite something sounds so simple but something very significant and and and to say to have to say I don't do plays or should I do ceremonies I'm a big believer in ceremonies and rituals and so this is some it's a most significant contribution so what are you guys listening to at the moment or reading is there something where you say this in this time of cobalt this has been important to me who's inspiring you I definitely speaking of fella there's fella has certainly shown up on the on the spotify list but also listening to a lot of staple singers a lot of aretha um I played black parade by Beyonce about 15 times on repeat while my husband was out running uh this weekend um and uh really trying to it is this sense of wanting to ground myself and the things that have given me um joy and respite since I was a child my father who's Nigerian aretha is one of his favorite singers so I've been listening to aretha since I probably since before I was born so for me she's always a touchstone and always brings me back to a sense of myself and and books or writers or ideas uh yeah that you suggest uh yeah um I'm gonna turn it over to ebony and I'll run through my through my head okay so music music is the the the main thing for me right now yeah right now I am listening to a lot of uh experimental and spiritual jazz um definitely like um Coltrane Alice Coltrane the loneliest muck Charles Mingus like I'm I'm in the jazz the jazz opens up my brain opens up my my sight my inner sight I'm also listening to a lot of like 70s funk um so you can you can often find me listening to earth wind and fire um I'm really here for the 70s funk music um I am reading a lot of archival a lot of archival work I'm reading um a lot of work by Dr. Alexis Pauline Gums um who's um a big inspiration for me and a friend um I'm reading and I'm always rereading this experiments in the jazz aesthetic um by Dr. Joanie um Omeo Shun Joanie L. Jones and Sharon Bridgeforth um because there that work is it reminds me of what theater and the tradition that I am leaning into is about um this book this book I've talked about yesterday as well workings of the spirit by Houston a baker it's a book that's about African-American women writers and again in that idea of the literary ceremony and how poetry and narrative and essay and um writing for the stage as well is a part of a tradition and a continuum of bringing forth the reality that you want to live in. Yeah um all of that definitely like I said earlier the music has played a really big part I've been reading a lot about um and listening podcasts etc um doing a lot of deep thinking around kind of reparations the black uh radical imagination by Dr. Kelly freedom dreams the yellow house by Sarah Broome thinking about issues again the sense of groundiness and and uh how to situate ourselves in space um one of the books that I'm very excited to read and just uh ordered is about lift every voice and sing by Monnie Perry which is um the known as the black American uh anthem national anthem and it was something that I was introduced to in my teens when I went to Florida A&M University historically black college and it's a song that it means a lot to me and being able to kind of dive into that from a historical perspective um as well as many other perspectives that Dr. Henry uh Dr. Perry offers is something very much excited about I've been looking at a lot of arts and reminding myself about what what I love about uh Kermay Wiens and Lorna Simpson and Glenn Ligon as well as all the incredible um LP artists that I get to be uh connected with and learn from some of my deepest learnings by far um happens from laundromat project artists and what they care about what they push me to pay attention to or to think about or to see um in a way that uh might be different than I might have seen it for myself um so that's I I have tried to approach this moment which none of us asked for but here we are given um as a gift as a portal as our Dr. Roy offered to us um into a time of incredibly deep listening and thinking and um reorienting um uh but just listening and looking and thinking and and listening again like it just keeps coming back to this idea of uh being grounded in listening with my eyes and my ears and my tactility like listening as a full body experience and what advice let's say for a young artist someone who comes to the LP and maybe doesn't get the project right in or ebony someone comes to you and uh is starting out what advice do you have to two artists for the moment now maybe also for our viewers you know how to deal with the moment but what advice what do you give to someone seriously who might be struggling and making sense creating meaning out of this at least in our lifetime unprecedented situation confusion um yes Kim no no please ebony um in this moment there is space for confusion in this moment there is space to not know what to do Kimi spoke about grace earlier grace is hard it is it's challenging it's challenging there's so much at stake and there's so much that's important but grace is I think super critical so and I'll make it I'll make it brief I know we're getting to time or past time um but what I will say is that you if you if you if you're trying and you make a mistake right accept that you are learning accept that you're in process and accept that other people may not accept your mistake right um but be very comfortable with discomfort be very comfortable with moving beyond your growing edges as as we we talk about often and what's outside of that is everything and so my advice is to gracefully fail and ask questions and um and stop and listen respond not react and as long as we are here we are in this experiment call lap I echo all of that 100% and uh yeah that idea of of self grace um is so important and I would say um some of what I offer young folks and I talk to them often and just today someone emailed um is to listen to what to themselves about what helps them thrive and lean into that because that's something I think some of us suffer for longer than we need to by trying to make ourselves fit in where it doesn't make sense for us and being able to um lean into creation and to create the life that we want is a real is an actual option and I think some of us just need permission to hear that that's okay and people told me that early um and and late some some lessons happened quicker than other lessons um so that feels important and to continue to make me and those of my generation and other generations uncomfortable um and to let us learn from them as well I think is incredibly important and I think we are living that in this moment in a really profound and visible way um we a lot of the uh movements and the letters and the you know uprisings in the streets etc are being led by young people who are telling us that they do not want to inherit what we are offering um and it is our duty to listen and to learn and to be in conversation um there are some things that do deserve uh uh to to see another day perhaps so that's going to happen in conversation with them about what those things are that we want to save from the world that used to be and take with us into the world that's coming and and they don't have to accept what what we have we think that is and I'm thrilled and frightened and uncomfortable and scared and back to thrilled and inspired and moved by what they have to teach us so I definitely think of it as a a polyphonic moment uh with many voices and many different directions and being able to kind of hold the space for that as um someone who's been in this field for you know a long time I think is one of the most important things we can do is to create the space for particularly for younger voices to show us what the way is forward yeah it's significant and important the both of you said and it's I will go back and then listen to it again but this is um this is very very very valuable advice and thought about listeners the whole body of work is behind what both of them just said through the actions and their results so it's something very very significant that will to be taken very serious really both of you thank you thank you for taking the time you went a bit over over our time but you know Melanie Joseph who said Frank you have to talk to Cami and Ebony you have so Melanie Joseph I'm the founder and she's right you know and your your contribution to the city is what makes the city the city and if people ask like this magazine the speaker what is the soul of New York City will it come back on or no it's always been there and there's people like you and through your work who who who make a city a city because as you said it's not just the building that concrete and there's stones by the people inside and and so really congratulation your work and there's a lot a lot to learn and to take that very very serious how you approach art and community and what you create as a way of saying this if you do it also in your own life in your own building in your own neighborhood what you learn through art this will save you this will change you this will make it a better word or as you said earlier on that shifting the world towards a better place and art has always been doing that artists have been on the right side the complex struggle for history and the history of freedom and liberties they have been on the right side of social progress and they are also now and we really need to listen listen to them so thank you both of you really from the bottom of my heart yeah our listeners tomorrow thank you no really I know how busy both of you are and that means a lot to me that you made this happen and tomorrow we're going to hear from Kosovo the National Theater of Kosovo has been destroyed three four weeks ago because of real estate ideas so Jason Netsurai will will talk about this he came here with this one of his lgbt plays to La Mama where he went through villages small little towns and had discussions he's been trying to change his country he's going to come with Giannina Carabunario see once he suggested to come he said I want to come with her so it's interesting he invited someone from Romania and she will talk about her situation and there Wednesday we have Frideric Aytuati from France from France who will talk about her work about environment about brecht about radical listening and also lifelong learning and engagement and what theater can do she works with Bruno Latour the philosopher Iman Aoun from Palestine who runs the Ashtar theater in the Palestine territories and he will tell about how incredibly hard it is already to do work there building communities what she does but what has it do we now and the time of COVID to be to be there and then we have two artists from Jamaica English speaking Caribbean we mostly also French speaking but we have a Sakina dear and even the Walters from Jamaica who will tell us an update what it means for them the reality of COVID how to create theater what they do for their community what the community wants for them and also what can we learn what can we learn from places like them like we learned so much when we had the talk with Rwanda you know because these people also didn't have space didn't have money didn't have support all that would be experiencing but they created something that worked and and so as you guys are doing something that is significant important and that works and it will be even more important because it's a model for something that will become an anticipation of the future so thank you really really again that means a lot to me and and to hear you and for engaging and thanks to HowlRound for hosting us VJ and Sia and Travis and to the Seagull team and the Insangyang and to our audience who really for taking the time to listen it's important that we listen to Ebony and Kenny and their experiences and it's also really meaningful to our lives we really adapt it because it's all about you who's the spectator the community member because this is ultimately where change comes from and then some action that come out of it so and we learn through the experience of the artists like the ones we have today so it's a great compliment to have you with us and here and I hope everybody will stay safe and stay tuned in wear a mask it is important and and I hope you all will be with us tomorrow and New York City is a really really great great city it's a dangerous moment it's a tough moment it might take years or a decade to rebuild but it's been through a lot but it will be a better place and because of the people who are inside thank the guys like you so thank you all and see you soon thank you thank you thank you really really thank you