 Even Philip Katz, I am a marriage and family therapist here in Hawaii. Welcome to Shrink Wrap, Hawaii. And I have another marriage and family, a licensed marriage and family therapists. We're all called licensed as of the last legislature. And her name is Melinda Timmons. Welcome Melinda. Thank you, Steve. So, she's in private practice right here in Honolulu, and you've been since 2007. Is that right? Mm-hmm. No, that's 2010. Sorry about that. Oh, okay. You get about 2010, 2011. You said seven years. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. So, where are you from? I am from Seattle, Washington. I've been here since I was 20, so a really long time. Three years. Not. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, you were talking to me before, in the green room as they call it, about the way technology is influencing relationships here in Hawaii, and you told me a beautiful story, a personal story that sort of very well captured the essence of this. Could you tell us that? Okay. So, I was telling Steve, I was telling you, that I was married since I was 20. For the last 20 years or so, well, I was married about 26 years from the age of 20, which took me into my 40s. And then I got divorced, and I was just kind of working and doing my job and working super hard to finish raising my kids, the last one even. And I was dared by my 80-something-year-old father to get out there in the world and start dating. He said, look, I'm in my late 80s, you could have a super long life, you should get out there. So, on a dare, I did get out there online, because the therapist that I was working with at the time, because I'm a therapist, we like to do our own work, you know, dared me too. And he said, okay, not just any old dating thing, but you need to do this online. So, as a dare, I tried it for one month, and I found it to be this whole new world. Because you don't date anymore the same way. It's all about instant messaging, it's about texting, it's not about phone calls or waiting for the phone call, it's about technology. And thus, also, a lot about control. Who has the control? Whoever sent the last message? You know? Whoever sent the last message? Yeah. So, how is that different? How is that different? I mean, you know, when I was a young woman in the late 80s, you just meet people at work, at school, whatever, you know? Live in person. Yeah, live in person. And then there you are, like, sifting through for me, you know, over a thousand different kinds of things online, and trying to figure out who might be telling the truth, might be, you know, actually the age that they say they are, or actually available, you know? So you sift through that enough to go meet someone for coffee or something, and then you have to say, okay, well, you're 60, you're not 40, you know? So yeah, it's just kind of interesting doing that. And then once you're actually seeing someone, or even after one day, then the texting begins. Even in my age bracket, in the 40-somethings, and it's not like a phone call, it's like a text, oh, nice to see you, it was really nice to see you, and then there's, you know, day after day a little text back and forth, and banter, and then they fall off the face of the earth. And so this became a little bit of a professional curiosity for me, in terms of technology, texting, relationships, also including social networking, kind of interesting. What's lost in the text message that you don't get with a live person? I think a lot. So unless you are like my psycholinguist friend who studies this, the psychology of language, a lot, a lot. You can lose body language, you can lose intonation of your voice, like right now you're nodding your head, and we have eye contact, and I can see that you're agreeing with me. We were texting back and forth, maybe you would leave out that affirmation that you're nodding. How do you do that in a text? Not, oh, I'm hearing you, so I'm pretty good at that, because our language pretty much is communication, and usually most therapists were pretty good at translating that to the written form. I mean, we figure out emojis pretty quick because we're emotion space, but other people out there are not so quick to learn this stuff. So I got curious when I was actually dating out there, and I got more curious with my clients too. My 30, 40, 50-something clients who are struggling in relationship, whether it's with a partner, potential partner, just the dating game, or even family, kids, daughters, sons, it can be a big struggle. So I know our audience is dying to know how to work out for you. Strangely, because I actually met somebody, and I never even paid for the service. I was just committed to doing it the free month, the one month of the match.com thing, and lo and behold, I met somebody, and turns out he's in technology, in the field of technology, so he loves to keep things like messaging and texting and so forth, but yeah, I met him there, and that was it. So the communication worked. Well, it worked because he's really, really good at it. So for the most part, he's quite good at it, and because he was honest, and he went that extra mile, you know, like he took days off to meet me consecutively. So do you still text each other a lot? We do. We text each other a lot, and he's in also a facility where he works where he cannot answer his personal phone or anything, so it's going to be email. We can email each other. We can email each other. We can't take a phone in there, but we can email. So yeah, it continues on, the messaging relationship. So with us, it works, but initially I had to figure out a lot of things. I mean, as much as I like language and communication, you know, I talked to my friend Dr. Amy Shaffer, who's a psycho linguist quite a bit, about psychology and language, and I learned things from her, but I didn't know, like, you know, that a period can be too final, say, when you're texting someone, so there's a lot of talk about leaving off the period because it can be... Well, the ellipsis is so overused. I mean, this ellipsis is leaving a lot of room for, you know, it's very vague. How do you figure that out, you know? And it's very overused. Smiley faces are overused. So just skip it. No, no period or comma? Skip the period and maybe figure out how to do something pictorial or with your language. How can I make this interesting for this person? And so that's where the control comes in, because in the past, you know, we meet people live, whether it's in a restaurant or at work or whatever, we have this mode of communication where we have eye contact, body language I can even smell, you know, you smell okay, you know, yeah, yeah, there's a lot, you know, and whether or not someone's leaning forward, and in that texting language, how do you do that? Yeah, that does so much. When you did that, you know, it just changes everything, right? Yeah, it does. Oh, she likes me. Yeah, absolutely. You don't get that in texting or even in... She's interesting. You don't get an email. You don't get that. Right. But usually in emails, that's a format where we tend to take more time. Typically, we may need... Yeah, you can work on it and massage it before you send it out. Right. But I think that's important to realize too, that especially in relationships, like dating relationships, people are massaging. They are...if they're paying attention, the good ones, they are paying attention to, okay, how much time do I let lapse before I get back to her? Or to him? Oh, so it's kind of like the old dating thing in that way. Maybe I should wait until Wednesday or Tuesday or something. Yeah, well, and a lot of guys blow up that way too. Right, so that become...you know, it came into my practice. So I'm actually... Right, yeah, I find that in my practice. You do too. Yeah. Oh, what I get in my practice all the time is, I got to show you what he wrote. Now, look at this conversation and then they give me like pages and pages. Oh, no, I get that too. Look at what he said. Do you read it? No. Do you have them read it? Can you give me a synopsis, please? You know, I mean, because you know, you don't want to take it the whole session, but sometimes I do read it if it's really impacting them. Because it seems really important to them. Yeah. Like I can't believe what he said. Read this. Yeah, I do. Sometimes I do. And then whole arguments happen through text. Yes. And the trouble with that is if you say things that are very hurtful, things you didn't mean, they're there forever. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So when I was starting to date my boyfriend, sometimes I would just say, hey, look at me. You know, exclamation. But now we know each other well enough. We've been together long enough that I can see that if he's leaving out punctuation or emojis or whatever, okay, he's busy probably doing something for me or my kids typically. You know, it's not something anymore where I get anxious about it, but I used to. And my clients, I can tell that they're very anxious, you know, especially the ones at 30s, 40s, 50s. And I don't mean early 30s because that's kind of, there's a cutoff there. My own kids are late teens into their 20s and a stepdaughter who's 31 and they get it. They get this language. They're all very, very facile with it. It's the people in their late 30s I find and onward. They're like, what? I understand this. Can you, can you help me? I don't get it, you know? And so we actually practice sometimes in office, okay, how can I get a response from this woman? You know, how can I do that? And so an individual might say, hey, what are you doing Sunday night? I'd like to get together. And she'll say I'm busy. And then he'll text back, okay, oh, that doesn't work. So in office, then we practice a little bit even texting live, you know, like not saying, hey, my therapist is here, whatever, but he'll say, so, you know, what are you doing Sunday night? And now that's interesting. Is that honest? Is it honest? If you don't say, hey, I'm here. No, I think that's face saving. I mean, you know, shame, shame saving. Yeah, just a little practice. So, and I'll have... But there's a real person on the other side. Yeah, but I'll have just a brief one. And he'll say, well, she says that she's busy or she doesn't know. And I'll say, hey, why don't you ask her when she would like to get together? When is a good day? And you really want to spend some time with her. So you'll help, you'll help him propose a text. Just briefly, yeah. It reminds me of, what's that play with the guy with the big nose who can't get a date? Yeah, somebody write. Cyrano de Bruyne. Cyrano, right? Shakespeare. You know? And what's that line? It's like, speak for yourself so and so. Yeah. Yeah, with his writing poetry for the other one and all this stuff. Yeah. I think the deal is, is that some people do not glom onto this mode of communication. Yeah. And they need a little help. And that's helpful. You know, if you're a therapist that's taken time, and as a 40-something, I had to take time to really learn about it, to study, to learn, to be able to help people. I've communicated with my own kids via text ever since my oldest daughter was in college because she would not answer my calls. Right. So that was helpful. I get couples in where, actually, they're having Facebook dramas. You know, married adult couples that will post things about one another maybe when they're pissed. It just happened to me. Angry at one another. Yeah. Very, you know, embarrassing stuff about each other. Yeah. And how do you deal with that? And then family, see, and friends. And then they'll hate on the other partner because then now they knew. And that's just a big no-no. Right, right. I have a client who was just involved in a new relationship. She's in love. She went traveling. She met a guy. She's all excited about it. And then her mother, who lives thousands of miles away, contacted this guy who thought this guy would be perfect for her daughter. So she gives the guy her daughter's phone number and he sends her this long text saying, your mother gave me blah, blah, blah. This is who I am. Yada, yada, yada. And now the woman looks at it. What do I do? It's like, I'm involved with this guy and should I not reply? Should I tell him I'm involved? What if the thing I'm involved with now doesn't work? Should I save it as a backup? What should I say to the guy? Oh, my goodness. So completely triangulating in. Triangulating electronically. Electronically. Yeah, so big... When do I send a picture? Big family disasters have happened that way through social media. And also adult couples unfriending one another when they're angry. Let's hold it for after the break. Hi, I'm Donna Blanchard. I'm the host of Center Stage, which is on Wednesdays at 2 o'clock here on Think Tech. On Center Stage, I talk with artists about not only what they do and how they do it, but the meat of the conversation for me is why they do it. Why we go through this. A lot of us are not making our livings doing this. And a lot of us would do this with our last dying breath if we had that choice. And that's what I love to talk to people about. I hope you enjoy watching it. And I hope you get inspired because there's an artist inside G2. Join us on Center Stage at 2 o'clock on Wednesdays. Bye. Aloha. This is Reg Baker with Business in Hawaii. We're a show that broadcasts every Thursday at 2 o'clock. We would love to hear from you. And you can reach us in several different ways. We have a hotline that you can call in at 415-871-2474 or you can email us at ThinkTechHawaii.com or you can tweet us at ThinkTechHI. Looking forward to hearing from you and seeing you on our next show. Aloha. Welcome back. I am still Stephen Katz and this is still Melinda Timmins, licensed marriage and family therapist. So nice to have somebody in the same business. So you were saying something about a family where there was some issue about somebody got angry? More than one family where there would be a couple and maybe even married couples that will unfriend each other on Facebook or other family members, maybe a child or a sister and then it's public. So when you unfriend somebody, the person knows it. The person knows. It's like a slap in the face. Yes, yes. And it's in this age of technology it's very painful even to people and maybe you don't signify that to the rest of your family or your friend group but that individual knows and then maybe they retaliate. Yeah. And then maybe there is nasty things said or even a picture that has some nuances of negativity. So I, this is part of therapy now. Yeah, I had a couple where somebody posted a picture and all you see is an arm around the shoulder and there's this whole debate in the family. Is that a guy's arm? Whose arm is that? Is that his arm? That's not his arm. He's got a ring. Yeah. Really? What's the ring? Yeah. And then I remember when my daughter was a little younger she was seeing somebody online. So they're messaging? Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. And I really had trouble with that because she would talk about it as if they were dating and when she, they broke up she was distraught. And I really had a hard time being empathetic. It's like you've never spent a minute with this guy in the presence of this other person. You've never touched him. What are you so upset about? It's like, oh, I'm like a dinosaur. Yeah. Well, in one way I see that, you know, historically there were huge love relationships. They were just letters back and forth if you think, you know, 100 years ago or whatever and beyond. And there's the notion of picture brides coming here to Hawaii. That was more probably functional as opposed to a love relationship. But there were love letter relationships. They were a lot slower. A lot slower. And I think people fell in love via the word, the written word. But if you think about it, what we know about today oxytocin, which is the brain chemical we all emit during physical contact. So where is that? So if you're, say, Oh, so the oxytocin doesn't happen from something you're reading? No. Yeah. I mean, it's about physical contact, you know, sexual pheromones, hormones, all of that stuff. So, okay, how does that work with these long distance texts, not just texting, but online relationships? I imagine they're probably shocked at times. You know, if they finally get together physically and there's no, like, chemistry. Yeah. You know. They send pictures, so... I think it's the same. Can we just, like, emit those pheromones, like, across the wires or the internet? Wow. You can figure that one out. We don't be like ants. We just forget about, like, dating altogether. We can just get online and go for it. Very safe sex. Yeah, safe, safe, safe, safe sex. So the other subject that I was curious about was you work with kids. Kids. Kids. Absolutely. Foreign up. And you mentioned something about tantrums. Yeah. I mean, I think tantrums are relevant, whether they're four years old or 40 or 60. It's simply... So grown-ups can have tantrums. Absolutely. Frustration, anger, feeling out of control. And then it can come out in behavior. It looks a little different, hopefully, with grown-ups and children. Though sometimes not, if we think of someone really losing it and maybe they hit a wall or maybe they start yelling if they're an adult, right? Right. Sure, I have clients who punch walls. They're out of control, right? Yeah. They're feeling out of control and they want some control. They're essentially seeking attention. And if it's not dangerous, let's say a typical relationship scenario with an adult might be... maybe the partner is starting to slam doors or cabinets, or they're huffing or something and they're walking out, very what we would call passive-aggressive behavior, right? Not so passive. It's aggressive. It's aggressive. Yeah. But it's not coming out and actually having... They're not hitting the other person. Right, or having the conversation, loudly, say. Okay. But they're doing all of these other things. Right. I would recommend, just like I would with a four-year-old to the parents, that you, hey, when you're done with that, let me know. But that can enrage, especially if it's an adult you're talking to. Right. It's like, don't talk to me like that. You have... Don't tell me to go to the other room. I'm not a three-year-old. Don't, you know. But if you engage with them, does it not perpetuate the behavior? Right, so how do you get out of it? I mean, I typically... If it's an adult, I typically recommend that they go ahead and leave the space. And that's if they're the quiet partner, the one that's not having the fit, the temper tantrum. Right, we call the temperate. The temperate, yeah. The intense. Yeah, yeah. So I typically recommend they go ahead and leave the space. Right, so I work with a couple like that. Yeah. And the temperate needs to take a break. So he says, I need to take a break. I'm going to go take a walk around the block. I'll be back in a half an hour. She says, no, you can't take a break. You can't leave. If you want, you can go sit in the other room for a while, but you can't leave the house. Control. Because for her, maybe she's got issues of abandonment. So leaving the house is for him, is like leaving her forever. So that's about therapy and about negotiating, right? Well, she doesn't see it that way. She says, if you want to be with me, you can't do that. And at the same time, her behavior is abusive to him. Right. Yeah. And she can't help it. Right? It's this, I hate you don't leave me thing. Right? Very kind of borderline. And how, you know, and if you would blame her, you know, if you're the therapist in session and you turn around and say, how do you think it makes him feel when you yell at him? Oh, so you're blaming me. It's my fault. Right? Yeah. I mean, he wouldn't answer the phone. Well, let's not get away from the subject. It's his problem. Why wouldn't he answer the phone? Well, if there's traits of personality disorder, they're typically not going to help you. You're telling me I have personality disorder? No, I'm not. I'm talking to Steve right now. I would never say that to a client. I wouldn't go there with a client. So what do you do with a client? Yeah. So I have this couple in my office. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily bring up borderline traits or personality disorder traits. I would negotiate what could feel comfortable to both of them to take a break and then also educate them about the fact that for most of us, we're going to feel like our heart is going to beat faster. We're going to have all kinds of biological symptoms and feel really uncomfortable if our partner is yelling and having a tantrum. Right. Right. But you can't tell her she's having a tantrum because she'll get really defensive. Not in the initial. You know, that comes from a lot of insight and relationship building, rapport building. And maybe eventually we can actually call it what it is. And I think that's typically an aha moment if someone is capable of insight. If they know that they're having a tantrum, then they, ah, okay. You know, that can be helpful. Then you can teach them skills. And those are the best clients of all to work with. The ones that are exciting that can actually, you know, turn a corner if they can develop some insight around that. Takes a long time. Yeah, it can. Yeah. And then the poor temperate. If they can hang in there long enough. Yeah, and I always wonder why are they there? That fascinates. Typically when it's got to that point. It's not like she suddenly got that way. Codependency. I mean, to me, yeah. Yeah. So what does the calm one get out of it? Needed. Feeling needed. Typically maybe they can. Right. Because she can't stand it if he leaves her. Care for that person maybe they'll get better. They'll change. Maybe they'll have a turn. Once in a while it happens. It's very important for that person to feel needed. Yeah, I think so. She needs me to be here even though she's abusive or vice versa. And I am talking about psychologically abusive. I never recommend that anyone physically stay in. But I also think it's important that people that are experiencing those kind of tantrums and their relationship be allowed to take leave of that. You know? Right. Even for an hour or two, you know, like, wow, this is not cool for me. It's not comfortable for me. Yeah. Even in our relationships in our family, you know, maybe someone's a mom or dad, it's very typical that someone will have a parent and an adult who has a parent that... Oh, sure. That's how they learned it. Yeah, totally. And part of the learning process is saying, hey, I am not comfortable with that, you know, mom, I'm going to come back later. Don't leave. You can't leave. Yeah, I want to spend time with you, mommy, I'm feeling good. Okay? Yeah, this is a really hard conversation, so I'm going to let me know when you're feeling better and then we can talk. But you always said that and you never come back and we never get to talk about it. I always come back, mom. I'll always come back for you. So a lot of good therapy is good language. Teaching people and coaching people with good language. Yeah, and I see what you're doing is you're trying to create trust. Mm-hmm. And that's a big deal. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, there's some couples you have to wonder, like, what's keeping them together? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a question I ask. I mean, that's one of my more solution-focused questions. Right. So what's kept you in for this long, you know? Right. Oh, but when she's sweet, she's so sweet and the sex is so good. Yeah, I get all kinds of responses and with really great couples that are really sometimes they are very touching, like one of my couples says, you know, she's the only person that I could be with for 24 hours and not get bored. Right. I could be on the desert island and be fine for days on it, weeks on in with this person. I will not get bored. And that's cool to hear. So they like the drama. Well, I mean, I think they're hanging in because they're that stimulated by one another intellectually and work on other things. Which brings me to another question. The whole is there such a thing? You know, people say that we're soulmates. We were meant to be together. This is the only person for me. What do you think? Me. I don't know about that. I mean, I think there could be, for example, I'm very straight person, but I have a couple of friends that I consider, you know, girlfriends that I consider soulmates. I'm an only child that always be my kind of my heart sisters. Is that important? You mentioned that you're an only child. Yeah. Is that something that you always ask your clients like where they are and the sibling I want to know stuff. I want to know that stuff. How does that impact you? Like being an only child? Mostly, you know, out here in Hawaii kind of raising my family. My closest girlfriends became my sisters, my children's aunties and still are today. Ah, that's wonderful. I think women do that excuse me for, you know, generalizing. Yes. Women, the girlfriend thing is something I've always been jealous of as a guy that it's really hard for guys to be that close. That close, yeah. And maintain it despite maybe continence separating you or whatever. I once mentioned that to a woman and she said, duh, like you know any men that you know. But you know, these don't fit. You want them? Gesturing, one of my kids over there, one of my closest friends, one of those soulmates, you know, who's her godmom, her elected godmom, not a Christian godmom, but someone she said, okay, that's the person I want to take care of me when you're not around. Goes and fetches her from college because my daughter, my youngest daughter is in college on the mainland and she'll fetch her for Thanksgiving. She'll go up to her if she's having a bad semester or whatever. I mean, you can't replace that and I don't have sisters. I mean, I hate to stop you, but we've got to wrap it up. The time has flown by and thank you, Melinda Timmins. Thank you for having me. Have a great practice and I hope you join us again sometime. Yeah. Bye-bye.