 There's always been a little of that, right? Like I'm Keto, I'm Paley, all right. But now it's, oh, you eat meat, you hate the earth, you want to kill everybody. You're immoral if you eat a particular way. So that's been politicized. Jim's now, I don't know if you guys are seeing all the articles, because they're starting, the machine's starting now, they're calling it toxic masculinity. It's fat-shaming. It's fat-shaming, the white supremacist roots of fitness, it's one of the most unaccepting places as a gym, which is the biggest lie I've ever heard about. I've never been a place more accepting the gym in my entire life, if you're obese. It's by far the most accepting place you could be. So, and I see that, we're seeing the pieces coming out. It's fat-shaming, you want to lose weight, it's because you're fat-shaming yourself. So, that's the political machine behind it. There's this real opportunity for this phenomenon we call hyperlocality, that the problem is this sort of decentralized amorphous, we can't wrap our head around, the solution is your garage, the solution is your friends coming to your house to lift weights and democratize that. And to really empower people and families and those localities, you know, because we're friends, what my life demand is, it means you can swing over to my house at 8.30, we can bench or run the block or carry stuff. That is how we dig ourselves out of this. It's not, if we keep waiting for the magic, government, ferry, institution level, problem, state level, it's too far away, it's too complicated. No, there's nothing they can do. The only thing, because I've talked at length about this under the podcast, the only thing that I think government could do that could possibly help, and this is just, if you look at the data, people that live in cities that were built before the automobile became a part of our lives, people tend to be leaner, lighter, healthier, because it's, you know, you guys live in the city. Yeah, you know, owning a car in an old city is just, it doesn't make sense, you walk everywhere. So really, the only thing I think they could do is just change the way that they create towns, so move away from the suburban. This is how we, we call it environmental constraint. Yeah. And you're nailing it. Yeah, that's the only thing. Everything else isn't gonna happen. That's super optimistic, though. I just don't think that's, I don't see us going that direction. No, I don't think we would either. There's scooters on every block now, you know what I'm saying? That's like, I just, I think we're moving the opposite direction. And I think what we've proven as a species is that we need to push it to the most fucked up level before we come back the other direction. And the scary part is we may not be there yet. Yeah. Like all of us think we are because we're in our little bubble of health and fitness. If we're waiting to hit the bottom, we're not there yet. Yeah, we're not. No. For us, we think so because we understand this is important in our lives and our family's lives, and we see how extreme the outside is, but everybody else don't see it that way. Everybody else ain't paying attention yet like that. Yeah, the other thing is that our space hasn't done a really good job of communicating the value of a healthy lifestyle because we continue to focus on the aesthetics. It continues to be sold by how you look. And that's such a small, you guys know this, you guys know this better than almost anybody. If I were to ask you the top five reasons why you continue to exercise and eat right, I bet you the way you look doesn't make the top five. You've been doing it for a long time after you do it for years and years and years. I had to abandon the fact that I won't have that happen. I win Instagram, I'm not gonna win Instagram. It's like I gave up on that long time. But you get what I mean. Oh yeah. You 100% get what I mean. So, and when I trained clients, I truly became successful as a trainer when I was able to teach them how to learn all the other values. And then they really became consistent. If it was all about the scale and how you looked, you know, if we keep selling it that way, it's not gonna work. No, most people just wanna be able to like move their body through space and be out of pain. I mean, that would like top most people's list that I know. Mental health, vitality. The reason you're right, the reason people are interested in nutrition is we can say body composition, but that's not true, it's weight loss. What I'm doing, I've always done, and suddenly it's not working. But for most people it's not even body composition. It's like they don't just wanna feel gross. They're not seeking the aesthetic that we in the fitness business think people want. They're not seeking like the shredded abs and the booty. They just wanna feel not gross and feel good and be able to do the things they wanna do. You know, not like have abs, they don't care. Most people don't care. I think agree with that. But do you think that's the reason? I mean, it's so easy for us cause you know, surgery, injury, we're like, you need it a certain way. We need micronutrients on board. You've gotta get all these things. If we're talking about fueling, like we talked to people about fueling. You know, how do you fuel for this world championship or this event? But the real reason that we have so many conversations with people is calorie loss. How do I restrict calories? Yeah, well, if you, so... Don't you think it starts though with the place they're coming from? Like even, like you made the point about feeling not gross. I think at the root, that's even the wrong place to come from, right? Instead of it being like, I wanna take care of myself because I love myself. It's because I've allowed myself to get so gross. I just don't wanna be gross. And so we... It's still a negative. Right, still a negative. And so even if that's enough to get you started in the right direction, if you don't evolve past that, you'll eventually... Our hypothesis oftentimes is, you think you're working really hard, you're not. You're just actually working medium hard, but you're underrested, you're sleep is crap, you don't eat, you're a stress case, you don't move your body. And so you actually feel like you're maxed out. And so oftentimes as we're working with some really good, fancy teams, one of our propositions to your point is that we're like, actually, let's point positive. You can work harder, you can handle higher volumes, you can do more work and adapt to that stress more effectively, which means that's a competitive advantage. It's not like, don't do this because you may get some disease in the future. It's do this because you'll feel better and be back at your family in fact, right? Like you're not blown out at five o'clock, falling asleep on the weekends, you have energy to play with your kids. Yeah, the big problem is we've taken the formula and we twisted it, right? So the reason why we consider someone to look good is because evolutionarily it meant something and it meant they were healthy. What we've done is we've taken the side effect of health and made that the primary effect. I wanna look good, this is how I want my body to look. This is how I wanna appear when in reality you'll get there if you just become healthy. That's the side effect of good health. That's not the primary effect. It's like we're hitting our head against the wall and we're taking ibuprofen to stop the headache. You can stop the headache if you just stop banging your head against the wall. So the way that we communicate it in our space is not helping because we continue to focus on the side effect, look good, have sculpted arms, whatever, but the reality is, look, you'll get that. That'll all happen if you just get healthy. Oh, and by the way, you'll get that and it'll stay with you forever because if you chase that side effect, eventually you lose that whatever side effect is and you'll lose your health. You'll have none of it. So that's what that's okay. So that's the marketing side, right? The side that is, you know, pushing sex and which I don't think that that moms forever in but then there's even I think a problem with the people that have good information and over communicating. And like our space turning this into a pissing contest, you know, of who's smarter, who science is more active. And it's like, I think we're battling amongst each other and speaking to our peers. Meanwhile, we're losing the majority that's like, they just need some basic information to move them in the right direction. And here we all are as the leaders in the space fighting over whose dogma is more right. It's like, man, that's, we're losing so many people that way. You know what's interesting, one of the most effective things I ever said that I still say now in the show that I figured out as a trainer after 10 years, okay? How to get people to train with the right intensity to how to get people to train properly. I'm talking about the average person, right? So not high level athletes is I would, I realized that strength training is a skill. And so I said, you know what? Just go to the gym and practice getting better at the skill of squatting, practice getting better at the skill of pressing and rowing. Don't worry about hammering your legs. Don't worry about blasting your shoulders. Just get good at these skills. And lo and behold, my clients were training with the proper intensity. Their form was always good. They were always focused on getting better at the skill. And their bodies responded phenomenally versus the whole, you know, you got to feel it here, make yourself sore, get blasted, get sore, you know, get sweaty or whatever. That small little thing right there made such a big difference. Nobody communicates it that way. You guys are smiling because you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, we're like, we're like, yup. Yeah, that's the key right there. So we are more and more, two things. I think one is that we appreciate that the glacial pace is the breakneck pace. It is so hard to make change. Second is we want to own, what is our part of the confusion? What part did we create? How are we contributing to this chaos? And then how do we get with our friends to sort of say, okay, okay, okay. You know, not mutually assured destruction, but like we've got to reach back. You know, I was just talking to someone the other day about, I mean, do you really want to jam back in at the trough? Like, we're all in the trough. Like, here's this fitness pie, right? And I'm like, there's all these open fields and there's just gold bars laying on the ground. Why don't we bring people in? How do we do that? And how do we take fitness and not just abandon the experiment? Because it has been 15 years. You guys, eight years in, think about how the thing that you said was just so reasonable. Strength training is a skill. Why don't we treat this as a skill? A really durable and transient skill. You know, the first time I realized what you just said. So we were all part of 24 fitness during its heyday of growth, late 90s, early 2000s, right? They kind of were the, you know, there were other companies, I think that started writing. They were the first one to reach a billion dollars. Yeah, but they were the first ones to really show how you build a business, I guess, around fitness. So we were around that. And I remember looking at statistics of members. There was like a, you know, the kind of members you would get. And they would, the average member would sign up at one place and then they'd go to another place. And so you didn't have to fighting for the same members, just like chunk of the population that never worked out and never went to gyms. And then a company, and you guys remember this company came out, it was the circuit training one for women only. Curves. Curves comes out, okay? Pneumatic shitty equipment. There's like six pieces of equipment in a circle. And curves comes out and explodes. Now it obviously tanked because a bunch of non-fitness people ended up buying the franchises and we didn't have to go into the business, but they exploded. And I remember seeing that and going, you know what they did? They just tapped into people that all of us couldn't touch. They literally tapped into a percentage of the population that wasn't interested, that wasn't being communicated to you, that felt uncomfortable for whatever reason. And then curves comes out and says, hey, you know, come in here, we're cool. Planet Fitness is the same thing. It's super accessible. Planet Fitness is the same thing. You can feel comfortable in here. It did. Yeah. So whatever they're doing wrong, fine. But one thing they did right, is they got- I mean, going back to your trough analogy, that's the biggest problem in our space. I mean, we saw that when we came in. We looked at the leaders in our space and in the podcasting and social media. They're all communicating to their peers. And we all look back at the 20 years of training clients and we go like, none of my clients would even be drawn to any of that information or want to listen to any of that stuff. It's like, we're so worried about what my peers are going to think about, you know, how I communicate something like, oh, he's not very smart or anything. So we're so concerned about what the rest of us, so they're all in this room, think of each other, versus really trying to go help the people that aren't even motivated to get out and take a fucking walk, you know what I'm saying? I mean, we've done such a good job of making our little, you know what I always like to say, it's like, we're all in this little vertical and we've made each other way better. I mean, walk in the door and it's like, your gym looks like our gym and we all have a cold plunge and a sauna and take the right supplements. And, you know, we're always like, adapting our training to whatever the latest thing is. And we're jacked and we're tan. And, you know, like, we've done it all. And I even look back when I was a college athlete and professional athlete and I'm like, man, if I knew then what I knew, what I know now and could have applied that to my like 22 year old body, like man, sky would have been the limit. So I mean, you know, and Kelly's also working with the Cal women's water polo team right now. And it's cool to watch him work with the program and be able to apply all this sophistication in a program where I was a rower Cal, not a water polo player, but to think, man, if we could have all that information and apply it to these, you know, 18 to 24 year olds, but I mean, what we see, we live in this like little suburban community in Marin County and the people in that community, I would describe as like professionals raising kids and they all share that they wanna be healthy. But like, we've completely lost them. Like they are like, what are you guys even talking about? What like, I've heard of the liver king. What is going on over here? Like, who should I be following? Huberman told me not to drink coffee for 90 minutes. What do I do? Like that though, you know, we've left those people completely behind. You're so right. Now, just to say, just to make, so we're not just super negative, there are some positive, I have to say, there are some positive, I just read an article, some of the largest gym chains in America are changing how the footprint of their gyms are looking now. They're investing less in the cardio areas and putting more and more in the free weight areas, which is phenomenal. You guys know, I mean, gyms, when I was running gyms, like all the money went to the cardio, they're a little tiny free weight area, one squat rack and a 40,000 square foot gym had dust on it. Now they're investing more in free weight area and women, for the first time, we're seeing them lift weights at rates that are starting in some places to match the men. Now, when I started working in gyms, you didn't see a single woman in the free weight area. Now you're starting to see women lift weights. So those are two positives, I want to say. So not to be the turd in the punch bowl, but, you know, back to her point though, all that is, is the market is responding to the small percentage of people that already come to gyms. The people that all come to the gyms and work out are saying, hey, we want more squat racks. Hey, we want a functional area now. That's a change. And it's still, we're still missing the fucking 90%. We're getting there, we'll get there. Yeah, the slow blade penetrates the shield, right? Like, it takes a minute to see all that. You know, we still feel like I've spoken on every con and except Antarctica and it turns out. Is that true? Yeah. Wow. Everyone knows what a push-up is. Yeah. Everyone. I was in Russia before they invaded Ukraine. Like the three months before I went out to work with some strength coaches, this incredible strength coach community, credible and everyone, we could brag about deadlifting. We had this universal language of food, nutrition, of recovery, of, you know, of training. And that's a universal language. It's the only, like math is not a universal language. You know, science is not universal language. We like pretend that is. The universal language is strength training. And I can make certain assumptions about you all because of the way you eat and the way you train. And it gives us real commonality. And I think sports, it's really interesting. Sports, we have a complicated relationship with professional sports because we fetishize professional sports. We take those bodies, we break them, we throw them on the pile, right? Everyone gets billions of dollars. It's super weird. But we're seeing that the top, like this last year we worked with, the last couple of years, we've worked with English national soccer team, pretty good soccer team. Those players now are doing all the things we're talking about because it means millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars to them. And guess what? Because they do it, the kids underneath them do it. They all blacks do a certain thing. That's a good point. We work with the all blacks. All of a sudden we see all the local rugby clubs, all of them do this. So it is a way for us to be sneaky and filter down. It's just gonna, we're gonna miss a lot of people. Yeah. Positive changes for sure. I'm not that old, but I remember when strength training wasn't even recommended for certain sports. Made you stiff, that's what they said. Made you muscle bound, right? Muscle bound, yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. Now find me a single sport that doesn't utilize strength training. You can't, you can't find it. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just like going back to the value of sports and especially with children. Like what I've noticed is the biggest deficit I've ever seen in kids enrolling for sports, you know, post-pandemic or even like going into pandemic. For me, that to me is a signal that we really put a lot more effort into the emphasis on like getting kids to move and really building that at that level for us to make any kind of movement and change going forward. There used to be this whole idea, and so talking about government and like coming in of like presidential sort of standards and like this was like a whole cultural kind of movement of like, hey, we all need to like pay attention to this and like have some kind of standardization here for, you know, kids to learn about how to move and how to like apply fitness in their life. And I just feel like that's just been removed from the culture. They did remove that, didn't they? It's not an emphasis. Like it's just really not something that is talked about very much. Yeah, they changed the standards for things like the mile and pull-ups and push-ups. Well, in so many schools, don't even have PE at all. No. Separate apart from the president's physical fitness test, which I used to crush the flexed arm. By the way, do you guys remember that? I do. You've seen three-tell me, right? That's it. I was like, flex arming! But anyway, but yeah, I mean, there's not even PE in California public schools, unless the parents pay for it. And fitness isn't even their word. Like what is it that's required for a healthy population? The presidential physical fitness test came about because the president at the time was like, holy crap, we're not ready to go to war. And we had this looming war with the Russians. So we better do something. So I think we can expand that and just say, all kids have to go to school. Then aren't we responsible for teaching fundamentals to kids in those places, how to eat, how to cook, how to like self-serve. Well, this is what I love about your guys is, you know, expanding the vital signs concept. I think that's a brilliant approach to teaching the younger generation, like it's more than just, you know, coming in and getting more attention to it. Yeah, and I think that's a big area that we're missing. So. All right, today's workout program giveaway, maps anabolic. Here's how you can win that program. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it here on YouTube. Also subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you do all those things and you win, we'll let you know in the comment section. Also, there's only two days left for the time crunch maps program bundle. Here's what that bundle includes. Maps 15 minutes, maps anywhere, maps prime, and the ebook for performance. All of them together in this bundle, discounted over $200 off. So the total price, the total price for all of this is only $99.99. If you're interested, act now. Again, there's only two days left. Just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, here comes the show. Let's talk about how you guys have expanded what you know, the quote unquote vital signs are that the doctor normally checks when he comes. Talk about what motivated you, your latest book and kind of what it's about. I'll start on the vital signs thing. I mean, we, I think, saw in the pandemic that everybody we knew was not just tracking their blood pressure, but all these other high tech metrics like SEO2, and they were able to track all these more technical things with trackers and respiration rate and tracking their whoop to see if they were about to get COVID. And we thought to ourselves like, man, why don't we have some objective measures of movement and health that everybody can track that are easy to understand? Why don't those exist? Like why can't we just make an objective measure of can you get up and down off the ground? Or I think by and large, when it comes to nutrition and this is a third rail, we could spend an hour just talking about nutrition. But people know they should eat some fruits and vegetables and probably know they should eat some protein. But no one's ever said, this is how much you should eat. Like eat this much and you'll feel healthy. And so I think we just started, the pandemic really sort of brought that part of the book into focus for us. And we were like, people could really just use an objective measure and something to just keep an eye on. Like if you see your blood pressure as 120 over 80, that's not necessarily good blood pressure, but it's not bad blood pressure. But if it goes up to 130, then you think to yourself, that's something I should keep an eye on. And that's kind of the mentality that we're hoping to instill in people is like, hey, this is something to keep an eye on. And I have some basic objective measure and I can work from there and sort of scale up and scale down depending on where I land. You mentioned getting up off the floor without help or like they'll show now a metric of like grip strength. Group strength, yeah. Those single, a lot of people don't know this. Those single tests right there are better predictors of all cause mortality than almost any other single metric. So you go get blood pressure, you get blood lipids, you could get this, that, the other, or they could test your grip strength, which is great proxy for overall body strength or just can you get up off the floor? And no one just has big grip strength without actually doing something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why people, yeah. I have to say that because people. I'm crushing it and that's slurpy. Yeah. I say that because people are like, what's so special about the grip? It just usually tells you if you're strong. That's right. And if they can, with that right there, they can predict your all cause mortality better than almost any other single metric. What a cheap, easy, simple way to test your health. Now I'm not saying it's the only metric. And red, yellow, green, right? Like not, you need to freak out and reorganize, but now you're like, oh, I don't need to worry about that. Hey, I've checked that in, you know. Blood pressure, you get measured at the grocery store if you want, you know, you stick your arm in the cuffs. I mean, as a kid, I check my blood pressure like six times a week. For fun. Yeah, cause they had that like arm thing you would put your arm into. Remember that? Oh, yeah, let's go, I'm gonna crush you. So, you know, here we are suddenly saying, okay, we believe that sports, because remember, this is where we're sort of coming from, sports, high performance environments. We've always said that those places felt like laboratories for us. That's how we can know what we know. And that we can actually see people under the most stress and the nerliest conditions and how can we tweak that? And once again, sports shows us about nutrition. Like I think a lot of this whole food nutrition people coming back around has come out of athletes and teams and, you know, sports stars eating better and influencing backwards. I think that we can't diminish that enough. But if that's really the truth, then we should be able to say, hey, look, what are the best practices and how do we apply that in your crazy life? Because these athletes, you know, I just got a text from a superstar who's sleep deprived in Portugal, trying to get his clock turned around so he can win another world championship. Right, that's this morning. He's like, what else can I do? You know, like, and wow, I think I can take those lessons from this guy and be like, hey, I know you have to be on a red-eye, but I want you to come back intact to your family. So where are the places where we can lean in to some of these things? And actually apply those lessons to the rest of us. That makes sport the greatest living laboratory of a common language on the planet. That's a great, that's a wonderful way of explaining that. So let's stick to that for a second. So a lot of people don't realize they're jet lagged every Monday because they, they wake up and go to bed. They wake up and go to bed at the same time, then come Friday night and say, I'm gonna go to bed late, I'll sleep in. I'll go to bed late, sleep in. Monday comes around, they're jet lagged. They don't realize why people have such a tough time waking up on Monday. What are some of those things they can do that can help them, you know, bounce back? That's like, that just blew my mind, the jet lag on Monday reference. I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna steal that. I'm gonna have to steal that. Like that's so good. At least three times. Yeah, like that's amazing. Appreciate these goals. So I was like, I was like, whoa, I've never heard that and that's the best way of putting it. Yeah, so besides going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, which would be the old, I mean, that's what you're, that's the best thing to do. What are some things someone can do come Monday when? How about flip this on its head and start to say, what are the things that we know to be true about feeling the best and more importantly, expression of the best, not this subjective. Like we believe in this idea that if athletes feel better, they tend to perform better, right? You know, like, I believe that I feel better, right? That, you know, I have a good relationship. Even if it's placebo, it doesn't matter. Or belief effects, not even placebo. And so we can start with that and we can also say, well, what are the objective measures? You know, like supple leopard is a good example of range of motion, not really debatable. Like everyone agrees that your shoulder should do a certain amount of things. And then the expression of that was biomotor output. The reason we gave a crap about your range of motion is that we thought you could bench more and squat more and run more and play more, right? That's the expression. So what are the behaviors that allow you to have these objective measures outcome? And it turns out that when you do that, you end up backing into the exact same things that we're talking about. What can I do? Did you get more or less than seven hours of sleep? So seven hours of sleep, for example, is this objective measure that means that's survival. If you're just trying to deal that survival and seven hours we find to be that line in the sand, if you're trying to change your body composition, grow, learn, build muscle, that's eight hours. And what we've learned from all these tracking devices that you might need to be in bed for nine hours to get eight hours of sleep. So what you can do with first mode is it doesn't matter what crazy thing you're doing on the weekend, can you protect this window of first principles? And those first principles are well, did you eat fruits and vegetables? Did you move your body? And what we find is that idea on the weekend waking up jet lagged, that's having kids. That's a deadline. That's gonna happen to you a lot. And it turns out you're super durable and can buffer that. You're just gonna suck at work. You're gonna suck in your family. And you can buffer that for a few times. The key here is running the best you can every day with these key principles. And it turns out you'll have enough kind of capacity to be in a better situation on Monday. So that if you decide to have a drink, good for you, it's your weekend. It's totally your thing with your rested. But know that's gonna mess up your sleep. What do you think the threshold of that is? Where does it become chronic and bad for you? And where is it okay? Allowing that kind of stress, right? The kids or the, I didn't get very good sleep. So I next day I hop up. There's obviously amount of that that is in our friend Dr. Andy Galpin talks about this. There's some benefits to being able to be resilient enough to handle that. Oh, I only had four nights of sleep. Yet I still got up, I did the things. At what point do you tip over to where that's so bad and negative and chronic? I mean, there's gotta be a part of it that's okay or tolerable. And then there's gotta be a line where it becomes. Yeah, I mean, I would just say I don't know if we have a way to quantify that, but I think one of the lenses through which we wrote this book is like we are, we're not the fitness people who are spending four hours on the weekend, meal prepping, and getting up and spending three hours journaling and taking care of ourselves. Like we have kids, like our mornings revolve around getting up early and getting kids off to school. And we spend the vast majority of our day sitting in front of a computer. We have to travel a lot for work. So we get crunched from a sleep standpoint. And so we really tried to write this book from that lens of like, hey, we're not over here just taking care of our bodies 24 hours a day. Like we're actually in it like you guys are. And we're trying to figure out what strategies can actually work in a time crunch life. And so I don't know if I'd be able to quantify like when it's tipped too far. But I mean, I think the way we've approached it in our life is realizing that we are gonna have those stressors. I think if you have a newborn like the first year of your kid's life, like all bets are off, like you just do literally whatever you can in that first year of your kid's life and like good luck to you, you know, just work around the edges. Like when our kids were little, Kelly invented this workout called the 10, 10, 10 at 10. And it was 10 squats, air squats, 10 push-ups, 10 pull-ups for 10 minutes at 10 p.m. Because that was what we were able to fit in with like two little kids in our house, right? Like, you know, but, but I mean, I think what we're trying to teach people is to say, okay, everybody's gonna go through these periods of travel and stress and there are ways to minimize, to minimize it in the moment. And then when you get back home and you can control your environment more, like that's when you have to be extra on controlling your environment, which is why we created this whole 24-hour duty cycle concept. You know, when you're home, you can control the things you can control. When you're traveling, you can control the things you can control, but those things are different. What are some of the biggest things that you guys have seen with some, cause you guys have trained some incredible athletes and like you guys really made a great example of how it's such a great lens to look through how we could apply things to the general population. Cause you're dealing with people where you can make small tweaks and you can see performance outputs, objective performance outputs. We can see input and outputs. Right. So what are some of the, like when you get a high level athlete, first off, they're not coming to you, never having been trained, never having worked with anybody. They're already high level. So it's harder for people who don't know this trainers, some of the hardest people to train or work with are people at that level because I mean, you're already kicking ass. Like, okay, what else can I do? Right. It's just like the little dial turns. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like, number one, don't screw them up. Right. And number two, is there commonalities or are they all so unique? Yeah. What are some of the big things that you guys have seen? You know, it was work, we're invited in sometimes to help with a certain specific problem. Like English national soccer team, their strength, the Asian coach, Dr. Ben Rosenblatt is a G. He is just a super bad ass, very sophisticated, but he wanted better solutions for the athletes to care for themselves when they're away from the club. So we helped them with that piece, right? And then there's a million other conversations that help to support. But oftentimes I think what we're always missing is we're looking, show me the one thing. What's the supplement I take? What's the one thing? By the way, quick side story, the number one thing that like causes Kelly to lose his mind and people ask him this question all the time, is there like Kelly Starrett? What is the one stretch that I should do? Give me the magic stretch. And like it's like, I just sit there as like a viewer of his, like, and he literally like red starts to come up. You gotta have like a terrible generic answer. And then he's like with his head starts like, he starts doing like a side twitch, you know? And like he's trying to figure out how we can like both be nice and then like crush the person. So anyway, sorry. What's the best fat burning food? Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. I think that's a trainer though. That was the worst. What is the best exercise for your body? Number one exercise. What is the one thing I can do? It's difficult for us always thinking in this systems approach. So, you know, what's less important or more important, your sleep or your nutrition or quality of your movement or your belief or the team that you're with or the people are like, which one of those things you wanna write off, you know? So as we come in, we're always taking this systems approach. And what you can actually see in the book, for example, is that we sort of divide things. We have some movement behaviors that we think we should be putting on your radar. Your ability to flex your hip, AKA get up and out of the ground or squat. Your ability to extend your hip, like lunge or walk or run. These are fundamental things that maybe you can't know how they impact how your back hurts or potentially how your knees hurt after you run or stand. And so we need to put them on people's radars first. This is important because you're gonna use these things. So as we come in and try to untangle these things, we do also have these conversations about making sure that we're covering the basis, the basics, and that might be fueling. You know, we have, I've worked into enough teams where I'm like, hey, this is super sophisticated, but that athlete didn't eat breakfast. And then she trained in the weight room for an hour, had 30 minutes to get to the pool, did two hours of elite training and still hasn't eaten a calorie. So who cares? What are we talking about? This is all bullshit until that athlete eats. So now we get to the question is, well, why doesn't the athlete? Does she not know she needs to eat? And it turns out, well, when she ate what you gave her, it made her feel sick and she didn't perform very well. Okay, so now what's the next step? Well, what is it you can eat? Can you drink something? Could like, can we have a snack of a little thing? What we have to do is really always come into and understand the person in their environment. And then we can start to see, that means this thing where we're all talking or I'm working with a coach or I get this individualized training, even at a teacher classroom level, if we can teach 18 to 24 kids, that person could still be talking about lunch and all these other things. We need to understand at that person in their environment level, what is the greatest limitation? How do you guys balance with athletes? Cause you're so, I mean, you're right. I mean, all these things play such a big role. And then also you're missing hip extension and you can't put your arm over that. You guys are, I mean, there's so many things play a role in high performance. How do you balance belief and for lack of a better term, superstition? And I say that because athletes can be some of the most, like I have to wear these socks. I have to do this this way. This is the meal I eat before big game. It's ritualistic. How do you, yeah, ritualistic. How do you balance that with like, okay, I know you're six piece nugget and Skittles before your game is what you always eat and always makes you perform well, but actually it's not. But if I change that, now you're gonna think you're gonna do worse, which maybe will make it worse. It may become a prophecy. How do you balance that out working with people at this level? I remember working with a professional team and this pitcher, I think it was the twins. This pitcher just had some success chewing gum. And it became this thing and people were sending gum and like he threw gum. And I was like, I've seen this before with the sniper, right? With Kylie shooting well. He said gum in his mouth. Well, it turned out when he put a piece of gum in his mouth, set his jaw in a different position, changed all his mechanics, he relaxed. Really? Yeah, he threw better. And I'm like, yeah, he's been stuffed courage, he wanted his mouthpiece. That's what that's about, right? Like it literally does a lot to put the jaw into a more functional position. The key is that guy believes that this gum does that. That's not a living factor for me. So the quirkiness that gets you into the mindset, that's cool. So what we've tried to do with our professional teams is we never take things away. We expand. Oh, I see. So if you're eating, and I think it was Cressy who said this once, Eric Cressy once, he's like, look, my kids are getting fruits and vegetables and eating enough protein, that pizza is not a problem. Right, right. Cookie is not the limiting factor. If a cookie is the thing that allows you to come home at night and be intact and like survive, that is not the limiting factor. Yes, if you're trying to change by composition or compete in a certain way. But when we start to cover basics, and a basic was we were working with an elite army group called Delta Force and they have a problem with sleep because they do a lot of things at night. Sure. The rest of the world works during the day. There's always, and I don't know if you know, but that's kind of a high stress environment. Right? It might be a little bit. Might be a little bit. Can't always control what you're eating. You can't always get your meal prepped meal. Right, you're eating. And so what they found was, hey, how do we expand? So if guys had sleep disc problems or dysfunctional sleep, the first thing they did was give them 12 to 15,000 steps. So that's their sophisticated, we have access to all the technology in the world. Let's make sure that you're covering the basics. And the basics is let's give you more non-exercise activity to decongest, to accumulate enough fatigue during the day that you actually fall asleep, independent of training. Interesting. You know what's funny about what you just said? You're probably gonna go there too. You know we figured that out with clients? Yes. All of us independently. Even if you're trying to lose 50 to 100 pounds, I stopped looking at diets and taking away and instead, add. What'd you add? So I look at the diet. So if I have somebody who, let's say is, 100 pounds overweight. And I look and I go, well, she's under-consuming protein. She's not getting enough healthy fats. She's not getting like, I look at that and I go, instead of me saying no more McDonald's, I go, this is what I want you to add into your diet every day. It worked better. Unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that weird? That's exactly what we were trying to do with this book is like turn it into being about expansion and not restriction. Psychologically. Psychologically because I think that, again, when we talk about this population that's not in our vertical, like all that they think they've been told is like restrict, restrict food, restrict everything, restrict fun. You know what I mean? I think this often means for people like, you know, most people I know still want to be able to like go out to a restaurant with their friends or have a glass of wine every so often. And if you're like, stop doing all that, that's the only path to being healthy. They're just gonna be like, peace out. I'm not interested. You know why I like talking with people like you guys because you worked with people in the real world for so long that it's not just about what the data and the science says. You've learned how to work with the most important factor which is human, psychology and behavior. Which so. The most important factor. Let's circle that and highlight it and say that any intervention you have going forward, if you're listening to this, has to be done through the lens of behavior modification and behavior change. That is the thing. And if you're not looking at, if you're thinking just as another set on the, you know, or some velocity, you're missing it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we were robots, it would work great. You just put it somewhere. Give me the pellet. I'll eat the pellet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The mush, just eat the mush and you'll be fine. So back to the athletes. What's the thing that you see, not the magic bullet or anything like that, but what's the most common challenge that you see with athletes where you go, okay, this is something that we can almost reliably see among all these people. Typically, is it sleep? Is it diet? I mean, I'm guessing here. Are there commonalities that you tend to see? I mean, you know, we do see a lot in diet, especially with young professional athletes. I mean, I think because the body is so durable that young athletes really can get away with, you know, they don't see body composition issues and often don't see performance issues, right? And when you're, you know, you're a professional athlete making millions of dollars and you're between the age of 18 and 22, like you are not thinking about whether you can get up and down off the ground when you're 75, like that is not part of your calculus. And let me give you an example to highlight this. Working with Arsenal and they started delivering meals to their 19 and 20 year old millionaires. Because they realized if they just, if they just left them home, if they just left them home to like order DoorDash, they would order pizza and french fries for dinner. But if they actually just had a meal delivered to them that included a nice mix of protein and vegetables, they would eat it and they just wouldn't eat all that other junk. They just needed to make it that simple for those professional athletes. And we've seen that across so many professional teams. Was that successful? Was it successful? Yeah, it's successful. I'm gonna spill some tea here. I'll just spill the tea. The Niners is a team we work with and they are an incredible organization and really trying to take better care of their athletes and really asking really difficult questions. Their staff is really extraordinary. And in this last off season, they hired a full time chef at the facility for all of their players to come and get their meals year round at the training facility. So you're thinking to yourself, this is super cool because now I can feed the athletes and I can keep an eye on them, right? But how about this for a performance hack? All the best teams and organizations we know eat together at least once a week. Because it's such a big culture builder. And when they eat together once a day, it really changes things, gives us a chance. So watch any of the Amazon Prime documentaries about soccer. How many meals do they eat together? Breakfast, lunch, dinner. And what you end up doing there is you end up getting all of these ancillary benefits. I feel less social isolation. You and I can have difficult conversations. You brought something up, I think, is really important. I'm not a huge fan of periodization, necessarily. Like there are gonna be times in your life. And here's why. Don't get killed by all the Olympia players. That was a TikTok clip right there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna clip that. Oh boy. Kelly, sorry, it says periodization doesn't work. Yeah, just cut that out. Just cut that one piece out. If I can control all the variables really in this clean environment, front squad, clean snatch, I can tell you what drugs to take, right? Control thing that I can really manipulate this volume and intensity. Go ahead and jump on an airplane. Go ahead and get sick or have a, periodization's gonna happen for you. You go into a wedding, how dare you go be a member of your society? That's forced periodization. So we see that there's gonna be, for the average person, there's gonna be enough sort of variability in what's going on in their life that we just come right back into the base. So I wanna tell you guys, I love this. So what's becoming popular a little bit in our space are workouts designed for women that are organized based on their cycle. Okay, so oh, you know, when you're ovulating these hormones are high, these hormones are low. This is when your intensity is at this particular, when you're in men's this, then you train this way, when you're out, then you, and so women are writing, oh my God, this is working so great for me. I feel amazing because it's, it's training according to my hormones. And I'm like, actually, no, it's working because for the first time in your training career, you're actually training with higher and lower intensities, whereas before you're always hammering yourself, it's nothing to do with you. Right, right, right, before you were just running. Yeah, yeah. Just like doing cardio. And if you hear this, hang on a second, before you just freak out and say that there's no science there, we know that there are times you're gonna be able to generate more force or less force, comma, go ahead and play a professional sport, let me know how precious you are. Cause we're playing on Sunday no matter what. Talk to my major league soccer women and they're gonna be like, yeah, it doesn't matter. I may be back off some intensity on those days or I didn't great, but I'm still gotta show up and good to go no matter what, whatever my size is. Now my point with that is that, not that it didn't play a role, but when you take everything, your sleep, your diet, your stress, like when I train clients, okay, I'll factor that in, but I'm gonna ask you how you feel. Cause you might just feel great. You might feel bad. You might have had bad sleep. You might be stressed out. How dare you make yourself feel bad? How dare you actually try to feel your feelings? Yeah, exactly. Stuart McMillan is the CEO and head coach for Altus Track and Field and he and Dan Faff are two of the greatest Track and Field coaches ever. And Stu is one of my mentors, best friends, his colleague, and I learned so much. One of their assessments is how the athlete walks into the track. Do they hop over the fence or do they walk around the fence? The fence is like a foot and a half high. And I bet he doesn't let them know either. He just walks around the fence. No, he just observes. That's awesome. Exactly what you're saying is so important. How do you feel today? I'm feel a little smoked. You know, we were, Juliette is a three-time world champion, whitewater paddler. I used to do a lot of racing. We would get to a big rapid, a big classified rapid and we made this decision. We're gonna see how we feel when we get there. Always like, are you gonna run the rapid? Are you gonna run the shit today? And we would say to ourselves, let's decide when we get there because you could be having a crap day. You get there and you've already decided but you feel great. And you've already decided or you could be thinking today's the day I'm doing it and then you get there and you suck and you're like, you know. So we started making the decision, how do I feel when I get there? And a lot of the subjective training, I've talked to Mike Bergner who is like my Olympic lifting sensei and he has had athletes PR on like heavy squats and he's an Olympic lifting coach at the end of a session. They're the most smoked. It doesn't make sense, but all the frying pans hot, let's cook. And so the thing you said, how do I feel today? Let me start moving and start to get to know myself and then I'll make some differences. How do you navigate around HRV training? You know, in terms of like this new technology that people are paying attention to and like, are you playing this with athletes? Is it valuable? Is it just something that's kind of like data points that you're interpreting? Well, I would say for us, the most revolutionary thing that's happened in our own training is once we turn 40, we actually were able to tap into this thing we've been talking about, which is feelings and more than any other device or anything we actually have been able to ask ourselves now that we're old and mature is, what is my desire to train? And then we actually work our, we work our don't based on how we feel. You know why? Because it matters. It matters. And if we lack, because we're both very motivated trainers, we love to work out and we always want to move. So we really have tried to listen to that voice that's saying, I don't actually feel that well. And on those days, we just walk. You know, you'll see we're both wearing an aura ring. I went through a long phase of wearing a whoop. The story that we do love to tell about the whoop is we work with this professional cyclist who's local named Kate Courtney. She's a mountain biker, world champion. And the morning that she won one of her world championships. And a complete athlete. Like one of the most complete athletes of ever. She is total complete amazing athlete. And she's like an example, by the way, of everything that's positive that's happened in the health and fitness business and in terms of like optimization and you know, making professional athletes better like she is the epitome of that. But she woke up on the morning of her world championship and she had like a 12 in terms of her recovery score on her whoop, like deep red, like the worst red you can get. And she actually had the wherewithal to be like, that's actually incorrect. That's not how I feel. I feel great. She went out, destroyed everybody, won a world championship that day. And then she called whoop and said, hey, your algorithm is wrong. And whoop was like, no, it's not. And she's like, yes it is. And then they went back and like did their secret squirrel stuff. And they're like, you're right, the algorithm was wrong. So let me ask you this because, so this is huge, right? Because how you subjectively feel definitely matters regardless of data points. Cause they're all important data points matter too. But so does how you- Well, even regardless of if it's true or not. Yeah, subjectively. Because of the feelings. Right, so but now here's the challenge. The challenge, especially I would say with athletes probably, I'm sure you see this with athletes as well, is that they don't know how they feel necessarily because athletes tend to be like, well, I'm gonna run through this wall no matter what. Now the average person just is so disconnected from their body. I don't know if that's true. I would think the opposite. I would think your athletes are really more in tune, no? We're seeing a generation of athletes for sure and people who are getting more in tune. So like the early Omega wave came out was like the first HRV. And I experimented this. I'm training to- Can I tell the story? I'm training from Molokai, which is like this open ocean channel racing. It's like a big 50K open ocean. That's what I'm training for. Remember, I'm a middle-aged bro. I'm like, I'm not gonna be fast. Okay, so we have like a- I just want to set the table. We have like a six-year-old and the three-year-old this time. And so you guys know, like the mornings are kind of crazy. And you know, we both work so we've got to get our kids fed and lunched and dressed. And you know, they're still at that phase where like we have to tie their shoe. You know, it's like high maintenance mornings. You know, there's no like- Not for me. Taking care of Kelly and Juliette mornings. So Kelly gets this like early iteration HR heart rate variability device. And the way that it worked is he had to wake up, be up and standing around for 15 minutes. And then he had to go back and lay in bed for 30 minutes and attach all these like nodes to his body. Twice in a minute. He attached all these nodes to his body and then just go lay there quietly. And if like anyone disrupted him, it would mess up his data. And finally, I was like, I was like, that thing's going in the garbage. Like you need to show up as a dad. I'd be like, don't talk to me. Here's we setting the data. He's like, no, Georgia, I can't tie your shoe. I'm dragging my heart rate very- So I mean, we were like, that thing's out. So I mean, obviously it's evolved so much to the point where you can just have this like passive ring on your hand. But you know, I mean, I think the things that we use it for is sleep. Like we really do think these seven and eight hour minimums are like, that's a real deal. And so we, you know, people, one of the things like the most important things that we've learned from tracking our stuff is that you actually need to be laying in bed for a full hour longer than you're actually trying to get sleep, right? Because we lose and everybody naturally loses almost an hour of sleep just by waking up and getting up to go to the bathroom. And these little wake cycles that we're not even aware of as we've woken up. And so that was, that really transformed our own behavior because we realized if we wanna get at hours of sleep, we need to be laying there for nine hours. So that was a big, you know, that was a big piece of data we got thanks to having a device like this and super helpful. But what we say to people is like, you know, they're like, oh yeah, I'm getting at hours of sleep and we're like, prove it, cause you can. You know, it's really accessible now. Like show us, are you getting at hours of sleep? Especially when, you know, we came out of, remember originally a physical therapist, right? Which is sort of this arcane study of pain and low level exercise. That's really what physical therapy is. It's like a lot of banded. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that. And I think physical therapy has immense possibility but currently it's not living up to what I think what we're seeing is really good coaches and performance coaches can just have just taken over a big chunk of physical therapy. But one of the things that where we're seeing is I started caring about sleep and chronic pain and persistent pain and I started seeing this association because I noticed in high performance that if you didn't sleep, you didn't do really well. You started to outpace me in the gym because you were getting an extra half hour an hour of sleep. So we started to see that that mattered in terms of this objective measurement of output that we really start to see trends. Remember, the scientific method, Sir Francis Bacon is induction through large data sets. That's what it is. It's pattern recognition across huge amounts of data. And suddenly we're having access to these different data sets. So we get interested in sleep because we notice that our athletes don't do well if they don't sleep, no shit, right? That the research is that, man, kids who get less sleep, by the way, we still have this wrong, kids who get less sleep are more prone to injury. And guess what? We see that around finals that the injury rates spike in high school kids when they get one an hour of sleep, right? So on and on and on. So we are suddenly like, well, if it's good for the goose, it's probably good for this other thing which is attached to the human being. And this subjective feeling that you have is very much attached to what's happening. So we can suddenly start to become interested in some of these other aspects, whether it's changing your body composition or winning a world championship or getting out of pain. We find that this is sort of a double door that opens both ways. Yeah, so sleep's such a big deal. First off, it's considered cruel and unusual punishment to, in war. Are you saying have a baby? No, yeah, that's a habit. That's what we said when we had a baby. We were like, we're like, this is actual torture by the Geneva Convention. Yes, no, it's terrible. That'll drive you, I mean, literally, I think three or four days of no sleep, like some majority of people will start to get mental insanity symptoms and stuff. But I think it's probably a big deal because if you lack sleep for most of human evolution, for most of the time humans have been on earth, it meant you probably couldn't find food or it probably meant you weren't safe. So it's like one of the loudest stress signals you could possibly send your body. And when your body is stressed, what it does is it tries to protect itself. How does it protect itself? Lower my caloric needs, so muscle's gone. We know this, hormones change, you're not anabolic. You lose vitality because, God forbid, you procreate, you're not gonna be able to support anything. That's right. You're gonna store more body fat. That's a wonderful way to ensure ourselves against this potential stress. But you're assuming that all three of those things are important. Those are important to most people. I'm selling why you probably need to get more stuff. So what you're saying, I love what you said, by the way, is if you want eight hours of sleep, you should probably schedule nine hours. So go to bed and then wake up nine hours later and you'll get the eight hours more likely. There's so many people who are like, I sleep eight hours, I want to bed at 10 and I woke up at six. We're like, no, you didn't. You slept seven hours, just at once. I would add something to that and I'm curious if you guys would too is, because I think it's so interesting how our society has built this whole, I mean, there's books that have sold millions of dollars around morning routines. Nobody talks about- Night routines. Night routines. Yet, ironically, we all know that sleep is one of the most important things, but yet we haven't made that popular. We haven't made it a thing to consistently go to bed at the same time or maybe turn off your tech or not stare at your phone inside your bed. Yeah, I mean, we mentioned it earlier, but we really are such fans of this 24-hour duty cycle and we are fans of a morning routine, but maybe not in the way that most tech bros are morning routine. We think that's a great time to control some really simple things like DOE breakfast and does it involve protein and micronutrients? That's kind of what a morning routine is for us. Leave the house having some good nutrients on board. It's kind of like awesome, you won the morning routine, but man, we talk so much in our book about the evening is such an important time to control your life. And we know from data that people are watching three hours a night of TV, like on average, this is everybody, this is across cohorts, across classes, this is everybody, Mando's back on, so everybody's watching TV. And so we've really tried to create this, so many of the practices that we include in this book are things that you can literally do on your living room floor while you're watching Netflix at night. And same thing with prepping up for sleep, I mean a lot of the mobilizations that we prescribe for people are actually really down regulatory. They actually really are, in addition to having all these other sort of benefits in terms of your movement, they really actually kind of are one other tool and a toolkit to just kind of bring yourself down. Dive into that a little bit. So up regulatory would be, I'm getting my CNS fired up, I'm getting my energy levels up. Down regulatory is I'm taking my body, calming it down, relaxing. How do you, like what is doing what? What do you mean by down regulatory, stuff before bed? Can you give us some examples? Yeah, I mean, what we've seen is this, I mean, and I'll let Kelly answer that, but I think we've seen just every, and we're not excluded from it. We love coffee, but what we've seen in our regular populations and in professional athletes is just this depressant simulant cycle, right? People are waking up and having 25 cups of coffee and then at night they're either drinking, smoking weed or taking an ambient to go to bed. Hit the brakes. Yeah, to hit the brakes. And so, I'll let you talk a little bit more about the down regulation. I think the depressant simulant cycle is really important because, what we want to reframe this is, is that no aspect of your system, no body system works by itself. So sleep is not just a thing that happens. It's a thing that gets planned for and set up during the day. We already talked about walking more, moving more, create enough non-exercise activity, load, it's called sleep stress. And then that puts you into a more of a likelihood of going to bed. But you can get all fancy with your glasses and do all of that. But it turns out, for example, one of the big problems that we find is that people are going for that late afternoon caffeine bump. It's a big issue. And why they do it? Because they feel like ass at four o'clock. Like, I've got to go home and make dinner and full laundry and be a person. And all of a sudden, I hit that. And we know that late caffeine, even if you're a fast caffeine metabolizer, it's going to affect the quality of your sleep. I find it after noon. Yeah, I've got to break before noon. Yeah, I'm like one or two o'clock and even that's question. Yeah, that's flirting with it, I feel like, yeah. You guys have OCS? We'll tell you what OCS is later. We call it old cat syndrome. You have this old cat and it's just starting to fall off and go wrong with him. And we're like, oh, it's nothing wrong. He's just got old cat syndrome. So, Jillette, she's like, OCS, is that your problem? So, if suddenly we can start to organize behaviors during the day, I can make decisions about what's going on in my life that will impact my sleep. Am I going to have a drink? Because I know that that drink is going to mess up my sleep. But I can make that decision and be like, I'm a big boy, I'm going to make that decision. It's not going to be hidden from me and it's not going to be the only way I can hit the brakes. So, here's an example. We were working with someone in our neighborhood who got some blood work, which is oftentimes the way that middle-aged people come to their senses about what they've been doing isn't working because that blood is really what's going on and underneath the hood, right? You can't cheat your physiology. And some signs and symptoms, prediabetic and some really altered blood, lipids, blood sugars, the whole thing. So, the first question we asked is not diet, but like, tell us about your day. You know, how do you cope? What's your day look like? I'm super stressed. You know, well, how do you deal with the stress? I drink a bottle of wine a night and sometimes two. I'm like, okay, tell me more about that. Well, if I don't drink this wine, I can't go to sleep. And if I can't go to sleep, I'm wrecked tomorrow. So what we've given is this person the only strategy available to them, which is here, you need to drink. That's hitting the brakes. So we can't even understand what's going on with her choices and her blood work until we understand what's happening with the blood panel, until we really understand why are you so stressed and why don't you have any of these other tools? So one of the things we found is we were working with athletes trying to reduce the session cost is what we call it. It was if you have a big, heavy training day or training load or competition day, we're trying to diminish its effect on your performance the next day. We know there's gonna be some degraded performance. We do something really heavy or go long. We know the next day, we're probably not gonna get the same ghost signal, right? But there are a whole bunch of behaviors we can put in there, nutrient timing, hydration, sleep, done regulation that diminish that session cost. So a weekend could be a good session cost. Like what's the cost of your weekend? Monday morning you pay for that session. So how do we look so we can take that and strip it out of it? So one of the things we found was we're working with athletes on recovery or tissue position or pain. When we started shifting soft tissue mobilization or any of those practices or isometrics or whatever you're going for some of those classic recovery techniques, in the evening we saw adherents go through the roof because athletes were like, oh yeah, I didn't wanna lay down at the gym. I didn't wanna lay down in my class. I didn't have time. I didn't wanna impact my workout. And I didn't wanna take away. That's right. I didn't wanna take away from the thing I love by rolling, we're like, yeah, don't do that. Why don't you do this in the evening? And what we found is that our athletes fell asleep faster and slayed asleep longer and they started to create a routine. And then we were like, well, if the roller's right next to the couch, then you're already sitting there like, oh, look, roller. And you didn't have to make another decision. There's that behavior that you were talking about early on. So that's how we can begin to think. And suddenly you're like, well, there's a whole constellation of things I do unconsciously or consciously, I'm not gonna have that caffeine after four that gets me to where I go. But we've seen that this, as Juliet said, wine, coffee, four hour energy, ambient, that's real. And we, Adderall and Ambien, used to be the dirtiest secrets in pro sports. You know, the amount of Adderall that some of our pictures were taking in the World Series was insane, like 30 milligrams of Adderall, which is 10, 10, 10. And you know how you sleep after three milligrams of Adderall? Not that well. Two Ambien. And then after you're taking two Ambien, you know how you wake up in the morning? Adderall. And so we get caught in this cycle and even our Tour de France cyclists would come off tour and have to unscrew themselves from all the sleeping pills they were taking. That's what professional athletes may be doing, but I mean, you just take that down to like parents in our neighborhood, right? And they're doing effectively the same thing with caffeine and, you know, wine or weed, right? Like it's, you know, it's super common. So I love your, so what I found for myself, I'd love your opinion on this. So I found that if I do static stretching at night, so static stretching has got some value, not a ton. Oh, tons of value. Well, but I noticed that because static stretching essentially tells the CNS to chill, right? If you do it right, let's the muscle lengthen. Easy to do. Right. So I noticed if I do that at night, I sleep way better. So that would be an example of kind of what you guys are talking about. And the adherence was higher because I'm watching TV, get on the floor, do some static stretching. This feels real good actually. Yeah. And I mean, that's something we are literally obsessed with is like, how can we help people not have to make one more heroic decision to do something in their day? Because that's what we've seen in our sort of like regular person population. Like people maybe have that one hour where they want to work out and that hour is sacred to them and the rest of their day is like chaos. And they literally cannot be really, they cannot summon more willpower or motivation to like do extra things. And I think that's one of the reasons we've left people behind is that I think we've trained people to think if they're going to do anything for the health and fitness, it has to happen in like a one hour block, like a class, right? And so if you're going to, you know, work on your flexibility or mobility, well, if you haven't like driven to your stretch class and gone to your stretch class for an hour and so people think, well, there's nothing I can do, right? And so we're trying to really help people say, hey, look, if you make it super easy for yourself to like pepper your whole living room with a bunch of easy tools to, you know, make it easier on that night when you just can't make one more decision to actually sit there and do a little stretching, have a mat there, have some mobility tools nearby, like not heroic, just sit on the floor and roll your quads for 10 minutes. Like, you know, if you do that for 10 minutes a night, that's 70 minutes a week that you've done a little soft tissue work on your body. If you aggregate over a year, like think about how impactful that could be. I would even argue, and I would love your guys opinion on this, I would even argue that doing it spread out that way in small doses, besides the adherence, which is a huge, I don't want to describe, that's huge. A subpar workout done consistently will outperform a excellent workout done inconsistently, right? But let's just say that that's controlled for it. Herence is great on both ends. I've noticed with myself and with clients that breaking things up into small doses seems to produce better results anyway. And I've experimented this with myself where rather than doing 20 sets in one workout, if I have all day, I'll do five sets, two hours later doing the five sets, two hours later doing the five sets. At the end of the day, same total volume, but I felt much better and I saw better adaptations. Are you noticing anything like that with athletes where you're giving them small doses of training? Yeah, yeah. And some of it I think falls into the line of when are you gonna get this done? So what is the best effect? Well, I need to understand how stiff are you? What are your time demands? What's your training look? There's a lot of features before I say this is better. But what we see is you probably increased your total volume, your frequency, your exposure. And theoretically, when we're talking about soft tissue or positions, we're more closely conjoining what's actually happening. Where you're like, end of the day, I'm like, what hurts? What's stiff? Oh, I see. What feels worked. And now I can do that. Ultimately, one of the best models we've seen, again, coming back to Alta's track and field, is that the treatment table is right next to the track. So the athlete sprints, world-class sprinter, right? Gold medalist sprinter, and then they come right next to the track. How'd you feel? And then we can do some inputs, and then we go do it again. And that's what we're trying to do, ultimately, is look at everyone's day and say, well, let's tune up and tune down. And something that Juliet kind of keeps hitting, but maybe hasn't, we haven't pulled out yet, is we have this real opportunity for people to sort of get this 24-hour cycle in and play a physical practice game that isn't training. Because you may not have the time to go to your class today. You may only need a resistance train three times a week as a middle-aged guy. But if I did all of these other things during the day, I actually have a pretty good set of inputs. I ate a mount. I worked on my range of motion. I walked. I slept. I dealt with my creaky knee. You know what I mean? There's so much that can happen that's independent of this exercise or this resistance training. That means if your day gets away from you or you're gnarly and you're traveling and you don't have the resources, you can still have so much input to care and feed for your body that has nothing to do with exercise. So that when it's time to get back online, you can. So this isn't about the performance side of the little doses, but yesterday we had a day. Little doses, hashtag little doses. But I mean, I'm a huge fan of little doses obsessed with walking. I think that's the way to get walking into your life as little doses. But we had a day yesterday, for example, where we, this isn't just like, we didn't choose not to have time. Like we just never had time to train at all during the day and even really move that much just the way our schedule worked out. But we got home and one of the things we really value as parents is actually cooking dinner and sitting down at dinner with our kids. So it's like something that we sort of blocked that time out and like this is what we do. But we both didn't feel like we had enough time to move. So we literally brought some kettlebells into the kitchen and like every 10 minutes we each did 10 kettlebell swings. You know, it took us like an hour or so to cook dinner. Then you could dishes. And then like we do some dishes. So I mean, we just do little like move, you know, we just figured out ways to add movement. Can I tell you how we've applied that? Let me tell you the coolest workout you can do. You ready? You front squat and then you throw knives. That's my 14 year olds favorite workout currently. Can we go out and throw knives in front of us? That sounds so epic. That sounds awesome. I'm like, okay, that sounds really cool. You know how I try to sell the mini walks? It was such a big hack. All of us in here are all married with kids is that became one of the best times for me and my wife to connect. Yes. You be, if you're married with kids and you got stuff going on, like, let's be honest, how often do you and your wife not talk about business, not talk about the kids and just actually disconnect and be with each other? Like, whoa, what a great hack. I can go do this 10, 15 minute walk, put my phone, leave my phone and I got this one-on-one time with my wife. What it did for our relationship. Forget what it did for the health, which we all know the benefits of that. But what it did for our relationship, which is also part of that sphere that I don't think we talk about enough too is our relationship with our spouse, our relationship with our family, our friends. Like, what a way to kind of double-hack that, right? Oh, it's the best. Like, we have this whole, we can walk from our house to the end of the block and it's like, it takes 17 minutes and we do it often after dinner and we'll do it all whether, like rain, shine, you know, if it's raining, we just get an umbrella. The two of us walk, no phones. We have a chance to kind of decompress, check in on how we're gonna do- I'm trying to control my postprandial glycosuria. Whatever it is, whatever it is. And then, you know, it's 1,750 steps because I measured it one time. So if I'm like just trying to get over the hump of collecting enough steps for the day, I'm like, sweet, check two boxes. Like, important disconnected connection with my main number one person and I walk more. Yeah, I got, I got, that's how I got clients to do 30 minutes of walking a day is instead of saying walk for 30 minutes. I can't hate you 10 minutes after breakfast lunch. Yeah. And they did it every single time. And you can sell it however you want. We're gonna help you control your blister. Oh, I'm in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want you to go spend 10 minutes with your wife. Oh, I'm in. You know, I always think about our friend, Mark Bell, who you guys know, you know, he was 330 pounds, you know, world champion power lifter and decided he wanted to change his body. And the first thing he did was take these little 10 minute walks. May I don't know if you guys remember, he's now training for the Boston Marathon. So those 10 minute walks seem a long time ago, but that was 10 years ago he started doing that. You know, and now he weighs like 230 pounds and he literally just started small by taking these little 10 minutes. You know, and when he started, he could barely walk 10 minutes and he would do like three 10 minute walks a day. And so I'm a huge fan of 10 minute walks. Let me tell you something that you care about. So we worked on like this notion of just sedentary behaviors at work. Like we really tried to take a swing of that. We were doing Google talks around sit at the desk and just trying to reshape our environment, right? We worked at our daughter's schools and we flipped it into the first all standing moving school in the world. Juliet realized that if she just stood and perched at her desk, didn't sit in a traditional desk, but just changed her environment, she burned 100,000 calories a year. That's what 23 marathons. Something like that. I about weigh J star by like a hundred pounds. So I just was like, okay, let's add 70,000 calories on there. Do you know how much ice cream 170,000 calories? I mean, talk about expansion you guys. Dude, that means I get to eat 170,000 calories of ice cream. Because Kelly does love cookies. And I don't have to do shit to account for that. That's just in the balance. And I love this idea of getting something for nothing. I want beginner gains all day long. I want to be like, oh, I did this and my skin got better. Like, I don't care what the mechanism is. Give me the results and I'll stick with it for it. You know why I like walking and why I hate running is because not because running is bad and walking is right necessarily, but because the average person has forgot how to run. They forgot they lost the skill how to run. Everybody stops running around 11 years old, 12 years old. They just stop. And then 30, they're like, I'm gonna start running again. And nobody goes, I need to relearn how to run. They just go run hard and hurt themselves. But everybody's still, and I say still because I think we're getting to Wally pretty soon, like the cartoon, the anime shit, but still the average person knows how to walk. They at least know how to walk. That's why I like it so much because you can walk and you're probably not gonna hurt yourself. But if I tell you to run, it's gonna take us a year to skitch and relearn how to run. And you just did something that's so savvy is that you invited everyone and who doesn't identify as a runner to move their bodies. And, you know, one of the things that we're always trying to tell people is like, you look, there are these processes in your body that you cannot ignore. And one of them is your lymphatic system. Your lymphatic system is the sewage system for your body. And you make about four to six liters of lymph every day. And that lymphatic system is carrying all the broken down proteins, all the dead cells, all the turnover that happens all the time. That's why we're eating a certain way, right? And if you don't contract your muscles, that sewage stays in your system and doesn't get pumped out through the lymphatic system, which is bootstrapped into your movement system. So look at what we've done already just in this like elite talk about walking. We've given you a reason to burn more calories, talk to your loved one, fall asleep, de-congress, clear your lymphatics. Like, holy crap, it's almost like you are designed. Get a little sun on your body. That's right. So you went outside, you saw your neighbors. You created a civil society. What's up? You're a dick. But I still saw you. And if I had to see you on my wall, I would shoot a day. Right? I didn't pay for the fence. I saw you lurking the window the other night. That's right. So I think what we can really start to say is what are our first principles? Now we can have the next conversation of how much walking is enough, right? And I think we use this analogy just throughout Wally, which is what we feel. Yeah, we've been obsessed with that vision. There was a local place that I used to have killer whales in captivity. Do you remember Tillicum? Yeah. Right, the killer whale, Blackfish. Well, one of our friends has this great concept, Katie Bowman, and I call this the Bowman's orca. She points out that when you put orcas in captivity, their fins fold over, folded fin syndrome. They're like, oh, it's folded fin. And what ends up happening is you've changed the fundamental behaviors of the orca. The orca doesn't fight, a fight, hunt, swim, play. It doesn't do orca shit. It just kind of hangs out the surface. And so that orca fin isn't loaded regularly for decades. It's not loaded. So the collagen starts to break down. Wow. And because it's spending all this time at the surface, it's always subjected to a greater gravitational load because it's not swimming deep and doing its deep hunts. So you change the behavior, you change the loading. What do you get? Weak feet, poor Achilles. You don't load the tissues. If you want to have a strong body, you have to eccentrically load, concentrically load, isometrically load. That's what your body is built for. Walking is the easiest way to start to load your bones and tissues. Well, and for those people who don't think that walking is rad enough, put on a heavy backpack. We're such huge fans of rucking and do it as often as we can. So I'm like, hey, if you want to upgrade your walking, then put 30 pounds on your back and go. But along those lines, I think we've done it to service. I did this as a trainer. This was a big mistake I made, which I was a fitness guy, right? So when I talked to a potential client, what do you do for exercise? I walk and scoff, walk. That's not a workout. Like what a terrible message I was telling clients. You got that from somewhere. Just keep in mind, we all came from tradition. And we got to break this cycle. Yeah, and so, I mean, walking is, in my opinion, one of the most valuable forms of activity for two reasons. It's accessible to most people. You don't need equipment. You go outside, do your thing, whatever. And most people can do it. You don't need to learn a skill to do it. You're probably not gonna hurt yourself. And it's relatively easy so people can adhere to it. And that makes it so valuable. I can't think of another form of exercise that hits those things. Well, you know, society loves inclusiveness. So it's like one of the most inclusive things you can do. It is, it is. So we're being as inclusive as you can. Talk about the walking school bus. So progressive. So one of the, cause I'm sort of obsessed with kids' health like you guys are, cause we have kids and we sort of see the writing on the wall in terms of what's going on, you know, writ large in our country. But, you know, when we had little kids, when Georgia was in first grade, we were doing the thing that most parents are doing, which is packing our kids in the car and driving to the drop-off lane. We live, I mean, if you guys ever spent any time in the drop-off lane. It's like, I hate coming spilling out, the stress. Yeah, the drop-off lane is like the saddest place on earth. Like it's so sad, like you, and volunteering at the drop-off lane is like the single worst job you can have. You have to open people's gross cars and, you know, kids are crying and parents are yelling. It's like the worst experience ever, the drop-off lane. So, but we were in that, we were, you know, getting up, rushing, sitting in traffic, getting our kids in the drop-off lane, having like this sort of negative experience, like, you know, basically kicking our kid out the car door and driving off with the door still open. And then meanwhile, we had started talking to adults about maybe trying to move more during their workday and maybe consider having a standing desk and trying to incorporate more movement in their life. And we're like, well, we're literally like packing our kids in the car, driving them a mile and a half to school, sitting in the drop-off lane, like, we're, you know, and so we, so I had done some research and found this idea of the walking school bus. And one of the reasons, so in the 70s, something like 75% of kids, 70s and 80s, like when I was a kid, 75% of kids walked or biked to school. And that was the norm. And now it's like 15% of kids. So it's a complete flip. But interestingly, kids haven't moved farther away from their local school, especially in elementary school. And really those kidnapper van windows went away too. Yeah, it's like, we still live the same distance by and large as we did from our at least elementary school, right? So we've had this wholesale change in behavior. And one of the things is that people are afraid of their kid walking to school by themselves. So the walking school bus idea is that, you know, we just, we said to people in our school district, like Kelly and I will be standing on this corner at 7.50 in the morning, five days a week, rain or shine. So if you want to leave your kid here to walk with us, we'll make sure they make it to school safely. Great idea. And we did that for 10 years at our elementary school. Really? And it's a mile and a half. So, and, you know, we, by the way, were able to do that and still be at our office by 9 a.m. because there were people who were like, oh, I have a job. I can't do that. I'm like, well, I have a job too, actually. And I still make it to my work. That's okay. We'll take your kid. But one, you know, one sort of health benefit is Kelly and I, that they're back, we would get back from walking to school by 8.20 in the morning and we would already have accumulated like 5,500 steps. We love that. Our kids had gotten some steps, but forget about all the fitness stuff. Like we had this really special time as a family to connect and talk and again, disconnected and we would pick flowers and look at worms in the gutter. That dad came up to me and was like, dude, changed my life, lost 30 pounds. Doing what? What'd you do? Like, tell me. He's like, walk my kid to school. Yeah. And then it had this like crazy community benefit because parents first would just drop their kids off with us, but then they're like, hey, that looks kind of fun. So then the parents would park their car at the corner and join us. And so we've created community and made all these friends and got kids moving. And, you know, we, we, the way that we could walk, we entered the school from the backside of the school through this like beautiful field with flowers and we completely avoided the chaos of the drop off lane. And we knew it was good for our kids. We knew we were setting up our kids to start their school day, like feeling alert and ready to learn. But forget about our kids. Like we felt so much better. Like we weren't jumping in the car and getting kids in car seats and chucking them out the drop off lane. And just for, like just for us, the way to start the day was, it was dramatic. So there's a lot of things I love about that. That's amazing. I just read a meta analysis and had a realization about two weeks ago. I'd love your guys's opinion on this. There was a, I don't know if you guys saw this. The, they did this huge meta analysis on exercise and depression and anxiety. And now they're considering exercise as a potential, finally, first line treatment for, this is like, this is the medical community. They're considering as a first line treatment now for depression and anxiety. Cause they're seeing that it's as effective or more effective than talk therapy and medications. What's raining with those things? There's this guy who wrote this book, John Rady. He's from Harvard. He wrote a book called Spark. And he's like exercise is miracle grow for the brain. Yeah. So, so I saw this meta analysis and I've already known this as well. But I see this and like, wow, they're considering this as a thing. Simultaneously, the thought popped into my head that anxiety and depression are at all time highs among adolescents and teenagers. And we're blaming social media. We're blaming the internet. But could it just simply be that they're just not moving because they're not, they're not moving. Also, yeah. And what can we control? I mean, if you tried to rip the hand, the phone out of your. Oh yeah. Along those lines and what you said that I wanted to add that I think is so important because we get to sell a lot because we're all fathers and we have people that are obviously interested in health and fitness and they see these problems with their kids and they're always wanting to ask, you know, what should we do? Or what should we tell them to do or whatever? The most powerful thing about what you guys did was you did it. You did it. You led by example. And that kids learn that way. It's not telling, I can see a ton of parents being like, oh, I'm gonna drop my fucking kid off like a mile and a half away from school now and tell them to go walk. The powerful thing was mom and dad getting out and doing that and leading by example. And that's the same thing when it goes to getting your kids to eat better, to exercise. Oh yeah, you want your kid to get healthier, you get the parents to help you. Yeah, you have to do it with them. That's right. Yeah, and you know, the behavior change in our family was pretty minor. We literally had to wake up 10 minutes earlier to make this walk happen. That's all. That was it. We had to, we did actually have a talk. We're like, okay, we now have to set our alarm for like 640 instead of 650 or whatever the time was. 10 minutes, that was the only thing we really had to modify as a family. We still did everything else in the same and we did it together. So we're talking, it's interesting, you bring this really up. We're talking about all the things that we think we want you to do so that you can be 100 years old and functional and durable and take the hits. You're gonna have injury, you're gonna have trauma, you're gonna have stress. How do we create capacity to handle those things and still roll? So we're talking about all these things and simultaneously I'm like, okay, now plumb to your kids. You saw that big study that just came out about obesity in children, right? And it turns out also 56% of those kids didn't eat a vegetable last week and 35% of those kids didn't eat a fruit last week. So I can't say that not eating fruits and vegetables caused this, but isn't it weird that we have this obesity epidemic and we don't eat food? So what's really interesting about all the things we're talking about here, just a plumb to your kids. Do your kids sleep? Your kids growing? How much movement they had? We did this project with Nike a million years ago. Remember the fuel band? I helped kill the fuel band, you're welcome. I went up there and I was like, I don't think this is doing what you think it's doing. They gave us a whole bunch of fuel bands and I was like, cool, kids, here's some fuel bands. And what we saw was that our kids were walking two or 3000 steps a day, they weren't moving. And it was rainy, it was less. So what we found, and we even just, right before the pandemic, we're doing a big piece of research with Cal Berkeley about this and what we're seeing is that we haven't created an environment where the person, the child has to do the right things without even knowing it, right? Because they get dropped off, because there's not PE, because we're asking them to sit and focus, because they go home, because they have shitty food choices, they don't even have an agency. So we really have to use these thumbs and start to shape the decisions we're making and that is the best use of a local school government, right, thinking at that level. One story I want to tell you guys, it drove me bonkers as a mom, like I sat in 50 PTA meetings and this like still to this day, slays me that I was able to make no change in this. But at our- I need to try to delift something heavy, I'm like, tell me that story. At our kid's school, and I don't know if this is the same for your kid's school, at least elementary school, when it was raining, they were kept inside for recess. And this drove me insane. And I think part of it is I grew up in Colorado in a snowy climate and we actually would put on, at recess, we would put back on all of our snow gear that we'd walked to school in in the snow and we would go outside and play in the snow. And it just drove, you know, and this is all based on some like societal myth that you get a cold from being cold or that you get a cold from being wet. And a lot of this was, and what was interesting to me is this seemed so straightforward. I was like, the kids need to go outside rain or shine, like let the kids play outside. Kids like to play in rain, but there actually was a lot of parent pushback. Parents were actually worried their kids were gonna get a cold or they were actually worried it was dangerous for them to play in the rain. And I was like, I finally just threw my arms up after 10 years, I was like, you know, but it's little things like that, right? We've been brainwashed for so many decades around that. That's actually a small argument in our house because my wife has been brainwashed by her family and their parents' parents that like, I'm always like pushing my kid out barefoot in the dirt. Getting dirty, man. She's like, oh my God! Come at me when you're really cold. Oh yeah. And I'm like, yeah, we want him to be able to acclimate to all these different types of environment. If you keep him in the 70 degree temperature house year around all the time, the Suzy has to be out in 55 one day. He is gonna get sick. When Caroline was born, she's our 14 year old 5'10 super goalie, right? She's a mutant and she was a preemie. And Juliet at UCSF, pretty good hospital and we're being discharged. She said, we're three weeks in the NICU with that kid. And Juliet has done this heroic job getting our kid breastfeed and have that kid have access to breast milk. And as they push us out the door, the kid's breastfeeding, they're like, give your kid these vitamins. And I was like, what? And they were like, yeah, you gotta, these vitamins are crucial. And I was like, look at me in the eye and tell me breast milk is incomplete nutrition for humans. I was like, I dare you. And they all got all twitchy. And I was like, what's the real problem? And they were like, well, I was like, what's the real problem? Women in San Francisco weren't exposed to sunlight. Yeah. No vitamin D in the milk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, wait a minute. So I'm like, so if I get my kid in the sun, I don't have to give her these nasty ass vitamins. And they were like, yes, but that won't happen. So it's easier to give your kid statins now and these drugs are gonna strip. Like at some point you start to see the madness of what's going on. If there's a solution, be outside, let's get some sunlight on your eyes. It's really crucial that we start to think differently in society about this. And I do think that you, as you pointed out, these vital signs are a simple way to put them on people's radar. And then we'll see how it goes in 10 years. I mean, maybe this is all horseshit. Can we go through some more of these vital signs? What are some more that you've identified that are... There's 10, right? Yeah, there's 10. You know, we talked about a lot of the movement ones, hip extension, getting up and down off the floor, being able to put your shoulders over your head. One of the ones we haven't talked about that I am focused on is balance. Balance is one of those things that like, again, who's got time for that? Like, who's seriously like, you're gonna be like, oh, hey, Julia, you guys wanna meet me up? You wanna meet up at a balance class tonight at 7 p.m. You're gonna be like, yeah, no, thank you. I'm gonna be watching the Mandalorian, like, no, thank you, right? But for me, it first came onto my radar screen. My mom is now 77, but when she was about 67, so 10 years ago, I realized that she could no longer ride a bike that she had lost. And she, by the way, is fit and healthy and works out and she used to come to our CrossFit gym. And so she's like doing the things, right? But she hadn't really ever done anything where she practiced her balance. And she actually lost enough of a balance that at 67, she didn't feel comfortable riding a bike anymore. Like just on a street, you know, not mountain biking. Just on a bike, she just felt a little too timorous on a bike. And so for me, that was a sort of important moment because I was probably at that point in like my late 30s. And I, and that was sort of a light bulb moment for me where I was like, hey, if you wanna be able to do things when you're older, you actually have to practice those things. And balance is one of those things. But again, as a busy working mom, I'm not gonna go to a balance class. And I'm not gonna spend a bunch of time working on my balance. And so we think it's critical. We also know that people have to prioritize certain things in their life. And so we've just tried to figure out ways to add balance into our lives. And one of the things we love is our friend, Chris Hinshaw created this thing called the old man balance test. Have you guys seen this or tried it? So he first of all created this to like have a test that he could win against his own children. Like that was sort of the locus of it. He was like, what can I do? How can I fresh my own kids at something? And so he created the old man balance test. And the idea is that you have your shoes and socks with your shoes untied on the floor and you stand on one leg. And on one leg, you reach down and pick up your sock and put it on. And you reach down and put on your shoe and tie your shoe and put it on without ever putting that particular foot down. And then you switch sides. Well, so this is now how I put on my shoes and socks every single day. Oh, it's an exercise. Yeah, you gotta put your shoes on anyway. I have to do that anyway. So it's just something that I do in my normal life. And it's also fun. And it is, you know, like you guys should all go home and have your kids do it and, you know, your spouses do it. And it's like, it's also just a fun test to do. Smash yourself in the gym next morning, get up out of bed. And Kelly, a lot of the tests in this book, I think bring up for me often sort of being, bringing awareness to what Kelly calls session costs. And that's like sort of a technical term. But what I've noticed is when I've, when I'm low on sleep, if I haven't eaten well, if I've been traveling, if I haven't been able to do enough soft tissue work, I see in the morning the session costs of those poor behaviors in trying to do the old man balance test when I put my shoes on, right? So if I'm like on my stuff and you know, I've been working on everything, I feel good, I'm well rested. It's like the old man balance test is like a breeze for me. And you know, if I've gotten like six and a half hours of sleep and traveling, I tried to do it the other day, we were in LA traveling, tried to do it in the hotel room. And like, I almost- Should not look like a one run max deadlift. Yeah. And it almost fell over. Oh! You know, one of the things that we're obsessed with is trying to have this through line of things that are important from a beginner or someone who's just interested in turning their health around all the way to my Olympians. And if you work with any coach on the planet, we're gonna talk about your feet eventually. We're gonna get to your feet, your feet are weak. You're all wearing flat shoes, flat shoe, flat shoe, flat shoe. Why'd you choose those flat shoes? Cause they look good on camera? No, because you like figured it out. Well, it's an andor, it's an andor. You can't, you can't look cute. And also, but the idea is that we found that working on foot strength and balance in our elite athletes ended up improving their performance. You know, we work with this really good surfer and he's obsessed with his feet. And it turns out his feet are his money. It's where he connects the ocean to his soul through his feet. And we have seen that when we improve ankle range of motion and, you know, even perception of people's feet, their performance goes, but when are you gonna do it when it goes away? And what's interesting is that we have two tests in the book, this old man balance test, which is a dynamic balance test, anyone can do. We also have a simple one called- I mean, anyone can do, but you know, I challenge people to do it. Standing one leg eyes closed. And as soon as we take that visual field away, you need to just stand on one foot for 20 seconds. Don't put your foot down. And as soon as I take your vision away, you can see why you're more likely to fall at night and why people fall in snowstorms in Norway and why people fall in crowds when we take that visual system away. And it's a reminder that, hey, maybe I need to spend more time on one leg. And all of a sudden you're like, oh shit, the yogis. If you're going to a yoga class, you spend like two hours on one foot. You know what's cool about this is it reminds me that our bodies are like efficiency machines. So it will not, your body will never be, never do what it doesn't think it needs to. It'll get rid of anything it thinks it has no use for because it costs energy to maintain that. And your body's always trying to become more efficient. So the minute you stop practicing anything, you'll start, your body will start to unlearn it and get rid of it. And it doesn't just happen. People think it happens into the body. Like, oh, I lose muscle. Lose it out. Your brain actually starts to make those disconnections and gets rid of things so that you now become more efficient, right? Cause you only need to do this. We're going to get you good at just doing this. I remember the first time when we interviewed Joe DeFranco, great coach and trainer. And he's like, yeah, everybody should be doing explosive movements. I'm like, what about old people? He's like, well, I mean, you modify it. It goes, but the second you stop doing it, you'll stop being able to do it. Move fast. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's why I want to jump off it. It's not saying when you stop jumping, you start dying. Yes. And then I thought about all the clients that had over the age of 50 and they couldn't even jump in place. We start seeing this on injury and surgery. Cause we see a lot of surgeries, ACLs, ankles, knees, hips, right? Like, and we're starting to be of an age where our friends who paid these prices as professional athletes, you know, who are now starting to be creeping to 50, they're starting to get a lot of things replaced. Like we just didn't do a good job by them. We learned a lot from them. But when we work with people who've had these surgeries, any surgery, even a young person, the first thing that I show them, I'm like, look at your difference between standing on your surgical leg and your non-surgical leg. And they're like, holy crap. And I'm like, what are we talking about? You're talking about going back to your sport or running and you can't stand on one leg. And now I'm like, okay, let's hop on one leg. And it is a clear red flag. So if you're listening to this and you know someone in your family's had surgery, have them stand on one leg and be shocked at how we have failed them. Yeah, you know what I like about what you guys are saying too is that you, if you incorporate, and we did this as trainers, and you guys just did this with that old man balanced exercise. If you could practice things during normal routines, washing the dishes, non-invasive kind of move, non-invasive, brushing your teeth, hiding the reps. That is the most effective way to make something work because if you put your shoes on every day, which you probably do, you just do that. Well, guess what you're doing? You're doing your balanced exercise. You don't need to do anything. You gotta do nothing. And it's an everyday type of thing. I love that. You know, I pissed off my wife's family when we had my son because I wouldn't let him wear shoes for like the first two years of his life. So dangerous. I mean, walking on gravel and all of that. And everybody just, raining outside, it didn't matter. Fuck, no shoes on my son. My son will not have shoes on him. Meanwhile, you could have been like, here's the American Academy of Pediatrics who says the best shoe you should wear is no shoe. No shoe. Bam. Science. By the way, that wasn't like that for a long time. For a long time. They were telling parents to put hard-sold shoes on this. And that's a good place to start for the listener. And I remember this for me. Actually, this wasn't until maybe eight, nine years ago when I had a PT break me down and we were actually assessing my squat. And I'm like, and I already been a trainer for over 10 years. So I feel like I kind of know my shit. And he's like, get your feet. Make my feet. I was even thinking to look in that direction, broke that down and then I went on this kick. And I mean, completely changed my squat, got rid of my bursitis and my hips and it all came from. And I started with just one. Every time I came to the house now, I took my shoes off, got barefoot. So why do I need to wear shoes in my house? Anyways, keep my carpets cleaner that way. Get barefoot right away. Walk out on the grass. Do those 10 minute walks we talk about. I would do barefoot. Yeah. I started with that and then started to build it into my training sessions and made a world of a difference just by learning to get reconnected to these feet that have what 7,000 nerve endings in it. Then we put these massive casts on. How simple is it as a practice that it can be so background in your life but so impactful to literally just take your shoes off and barefoot in your house? You know how I sell this to people? Cause you'll tell people, I don't know what are you talking about? I'll say, imagine if ever since you were a child, you always wore gloves. Yeah, snow gloves. So you can still handle things but you didn't feel and touch them. So that's what we do to our feet. Even just putting socks on. You're not all the connections that go from the brain to the feet, they're all numb down and nullified almost because you just even you're just wearing socks. And then when I say it like that, people kind of get like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Just walk around barefoot. There's a big chunk of your brain that is wired for your foot. Yeah. The sensory motor cortex is what's called but you can see the old drawings of the homunculus. Like your genitals take a massive part of your brain, lips and face, massive part of your brain, hands. Like your kneecaps, nothing. Like your elbow, it's nothing but your feet is almost as much real estate as your hands. So that's pretty shocking. And when you start to think, well, why is it that my feet are so sensitive? Well, you need to really be able to walk around the environment, get up and down off the ground, hunt, reproduce, bring resources back. That's all driven through the feet and you're really bringing up a good point. And one that we can take a step further, one of the rationales where we're seeing these increases in so much pain for people is that it's a lack of input into the body that we're just not getting cold, hot, walking on surfaces, feeling what's going on and our brain starts to potentially sometimes starts to interpret what's the signals we're getting from our body as differently. And you can relate to this if you've ever had something hurt and then you lay down at night and then your shoulder really starts to hurt at night. Like, what's going on? What is it wrong with this bed? It's because you're not moving anymore and the only input you're getting is that shoulder. We have a poor relationship with inputs and outputs and feeling things. So like exercise, I used to say, I'd say this on the show all the time. You know, you get a new client, they do an exercise. I remember I had this one lady first of your training, she's doing tricep press down. She'd like go to the bar, wait, you know, slammed. I'm like, what happened? She's like, I think it hurt myself. And I had her explain what was going on. I'm like, oh, you felt your tricep burn, it was burning. You just don't have a relationship with pain where you understand. Or discomfort, discomfort, uncomfort. Right, so you can't develop a full proper relationship because you don't have these inputs. So it's like you cover your body and you don't allow your body to feel anything. You have an incomplete relationship. So you can't possibly be in your body without those inputs. We have the same issue for sport. We have the same issue with nutrition. Our body has all these great things, feedback when you eat something that your body doesn't agree with, yet we've learned to totally ignore that. Just regard that. Yeah, it does right through it. Going all the way back to what we talked about earlier, how we said that we would, even with a fat loss client, we would add to the diet. And part of that process, would you would add these things you know their body needed, whether it be fiber or more protein or whatever water or whatever it may be that you knew as a coach that they were lacking. And then the next step is getting the feet, asking them, how did you feel today? Oh, how did you feel last night when you guys have become so reasonable? Yeah. What's your feeling talk, you guys? Very in touch. But I mean, we have to retrain them how to become aware. Like, it's mind-blowing how many clients I've had that have like, eat these foods and think that they're, that it's okay. And then they have explosive diarrhea, like. But they don't make the connection. Yeah, they don't make, they have no idea. They just think, oh, it's one of those bad days that I'm shitting like this. It's like, or maybe it was the food that you ate like two hours before shooting. We really have done a poor job of helping people interpret what's going on with their body. 100%. And to take it a step further, I'll give the silver bullet, even though I know that there really isn't one, but as close as you can get to the obesity epidemic, is people are eating foods that are designed to make you overeat. So they just don't have any connection to what satiety is supposed to feel like. And now we've got really good studies that show that people eat a five to 600 more calories a day when they eat these hyper-palatable, heavily processed foods. But isn't a banana have too much sugar? Yeah, that's why you're obese, you eat too many bananas. Yeah, yeah. You know, we, one of the things that we're fans of is this thing called, from our friend, Isi Sankowski. She kind of came up with this idea called the 800 gram challenge. 800 grams of fruits and vegetables every day. So we have this clear metric. And speaking of science, there was a study that came out, this is what it's based on, that people who ate 800 grams of fruits and vegetables lived longer and had fewer chronic diseases and all cause mortality, right? But it was really the first time that someone ever said, this is the amount. Like not just some. Yeah, I eat fruits and vegetables. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I left, I squatted last month, you know? So what we see is that when people do that, they get more fiber, right? They get more micronutrients, they're high satiety, they feel full. And all of a sudden I'm like, you dude, did you eat a pound of cherries? That's 230 calories. I mean like, eat a second pound. They start to naturally push out the pop tart, the Doritos of that because they're focused on, this is why this strategy is so powerful for other coaches that are listening, it's like teaching them to go after foods that benefit them. And instead of telling them they can't have something, what naturally happens is they end up restricting from those in order to hit those targets. And then you play that psychological game of, I'm not telling you you can't do those things. I'm just telling you, go do this for me and then see how you- Eat an entire melon. I mean we've had- And eat two chicken breasts. And then you'd be like, let me see how much room there is for that bag, I guess, right? Five or six people we're working directly with at our publishing company for this book and they would all not describe themselves as athletes. Or people who are into diet culture. They're not into diet culture, but they, even the word they use, they said, hey, we've been following your recommendations in the nutrition chapter, the vitals, protein and micronutrient vital signs in this chapter. And they're like, wow, it's the first time I've been following a diet that feels expansive. And exactly what you're saying, they're like, wow, we just are finding ourselves not wanting to eat all this crap food. Also not feeling that 4 p.m. slump as much, right? Because they've fed themselves- Or not eating this way where I'm like, I can't eat with my kids because I'm out of my eating window. Yeah. It really changes all of these relationships. Or I actually can go out to dinner. I just need to be mindful of making sure that I eat some protein and vegetables in that dinner. You know what's funny is, if you look at like the bro science that's out there and now the way that the bros explain it, it's all wrong, but there's sometimes there's truth in what they advocate for, like drinking a gallon of water, do you know bodybuilders? Drink a gallon of water every day. When I get my clients to drink a gallon of water every day, they wouldn't drink soda. They wouldn't drink other calorie containing foods. And they'd get up and move more to pee more. And this is just, I noticed with the trackers and so they're like, what's this magic about a gallon of water? That you're not doing other stuff. And you're moving more. That's all it is. You know, all of these things are interesting that we're talking about, but if you came to me to talk about chronic pain or persistent pain, because your back hurts, it's limiting, these are all the things that we talk about. You know, I mean, this is the basis. And one of the things that we kind of are all tiptoeing around is how do we measure inputs and outputs? And we want to take pain off the output table. Pain is a request for change. Pain is your brain interpreting what's going on with your body. And if you wanna be more sensitive to pain, be sleep deprived, be highly inflamed, go drink a bunch of alcohol, be a stress case, I guarantee your brain is gonna be more twitchy. Let me, okay, so let's go into that for a second because I used to train a lot of doctors and surgeons at one point, I had a gym next to hospital and one of the doctors I had was a pain specialist. And we got into the conversation around treating pain. And he said, it's one of the most difficult things to treat because there's this objective physiological thing that's happening, but then there's also this perception, there's subjective perception of pain. And he explained it how he would have one person in an MRI look identical to the other person, one person's like, oh my God, this hurts so bad, this other person doesn't. Or when they operate on a kid, for example, and the kid's not supposed to know, they don't know they're supposed to be in bed and hurt and they wanna jump out of bed and go play, whereas you give that to an adult and like give me all the pain meds, whatever. So he says, this perception of pain is something that we lack working on and treating, but we should focus on because it makes such a big difference. And you just mentioned that with lack of sleep. Lack of sleep, you're more sensitive to the pain. Maybe the physiological whatever was wrong with your back is still there, but you just perceive it worse. Your perception is heightened. The two things that we hand anyone who's in chronic pain is we control your sleep and we get you to walk more. We need more movement, non-threatening input into the body. Those are the first two places. And if you're in bad back pain because everyone here has sweeted their back before, that might be 30, 30 second loops around your kitchen island, that's what you got today, right? Tomorrow's gonna be 31 and then we're gonna go to two laps in a row. But we really have to start untangling that and start to appreciate that for us, we said biomotor output was the thing. That's the thing we could hang our hats on in supple effort. You have full range of motion and you won a world championship because you could go faster, move more weight. And so this pain piece, we're trying to get people to appreciate pain does not mean damage. Pain does not mean injury. Pain is a request for change. Clearly if you got a fever and there's a bone sticking out of your legs, something's up. If you can't- That would be an injury. That would be an injury. You can- When you make the case that chronic pain is always weakness, right? Isn't that like really what that is? Could be. When is chronic pain not an example? Versus acute, right? Yeah, I'm not talking about acute injuries. Whenever someone has chronic pain. We're gonna see detrain. We're gonna see down regulation of the system. 100%. Weakness somewhere, right? Weakness somewhere. Breathing, nutrition, sleep. But the thing gets starts to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm in pain, can't sleep. Can't sleep, don't move. Don't move, eat more crap. Positive feedback loop. Right, it is really a feedback loop. And if we can start to change that relationship and start to expose people to uncover for your son is walking around on gnarly surfaces and it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh. Like that's fine, you know? The, your family's experience, your genetics, all of those things matter. If I dropped into Juliet's brain while she was rowing or suffering, I would perish, right? Cause like Juliet can out-suffer anyone. That's her secret super skill. It's my only athletic talent. My little man called self would be like, ah, I'm drowning in this pain. You know, for her, she's like, it's Tuesday at four o'clock. I can handle that. And so we really do start to say, hey, we need some inputs into this system so we can start to un-wally ourselves. Who did you write the book for? Who's your avatar? Man, I mean, I think it's for exercises and non-exercisors. I mean, you know, obviously that means everybody. But what we saw working with professional athletes and high performers is that those, those people maybe got like three or five out of the 10 vital signs. They had some blind spots. They had some things going for them that's still quite a few blind spots. And then, you know, the other population are sort of this avatar of the like, you know, person who cares about their health, but is really time crunched in their life or at least perceives themselves to be time crunched and feels fire hosed and overwhelmed by information from the fitness business. And is it sure, like which way is up? And so, so in, you know, it is for people who care about their health. I mean, this book was not written for the Die Hard Couch Potato. That's that book is not. We can't move you. Yeah, we don't know how to reach into that audience. But for people who care about their health, who are sort of interested, curious about longevity, who, you know, want to feel better in their bodies. And for those people, we want to prove that the last decade, particularly in sports and science and sports science and performance actually mattered. Yeah, all this hacking we've been doing on ourselves, like we wanted to say, hey, we've actually learned some things that we can translate to other people. Let's, let's talk about some of this because we have done, I think, a really good job of laying the foundation of like the big rocks, right? No one really, I mean, we've mentioned the Oro Ring and Whoop and some of these cool tools. But for the most part, I think we've really laid down the foundation of like the shit that really moves the needle, what matters most first before we start stacking on all these cool toys. But I would love to hear because you guys are both athletes at the core, worked with all kinds of professional athletes. So I imagine you've probably messed with damn near every red light, cold plunge, sauna, whoop, every toy that's out there. What are some of the ones you like and why? Like what, like I know you, I know you guys are big fans of Ryan and the cold plunge. We have the same cold plunge here. It's been actually life changing for me. Oh, I love it. Yeah, so it's been a big thing for me. So what are some things that you guys have have toyed around with that you guys that really like as far as some of the tools and hacks on top of what we've laid already as far as the foundation? I mean, I think for me, I would share what you said about the plunge. The, but for me, it would be the combination would be the sauna and the plunge. I mean, those, those two things in combination and one of the side benefits of the sauna in particular and the plunge is that we've turned it into like a community function. So, you know, talking about that time with your wife where you, you know, have this unencumbered, unconnected time to connect with other people. You know, we invite people over to sit with us on the sauna and the saunas become like part of almost every dinner party we have. Like most people who come to dinner, we're like, hey, show up at four o'clock for dinner on Saturday. We're gonna drown you in the pool. We're gonna drown you in the ice. And then we're gonna sit in this sauna and we're gonna go back and forth between the plunge and the sauna. And, you know, man, we've had some of the best connections and conversations with our friends and family and with each other just sitting in the sauna. So, and that's not to mention all of the reasons we know from science why both those things are really good for us. But those two things I would say have been, you know, the most fun. We've been the most consistent in doing them and incorporating them into our lives. And just like it's been a net positive by the plunge and the sauna. I tend to be a little more of a Luddite sometimes around some of this tech. It's fun to see it, you know, how useful is it? And I always ask the question, does it scale? How, you know, does it work with one person right? Do I need 40 of these Tendo units? Cause I have a bunch of kids. So suddenly some technology is great but it's less effective. I think for me the bedrock to being a hundred years old and rad asleep that is the thing that I protect against, worry about, Sesson. And there's this thing called, our friends made by SleepMeak called a duck pro it used to be called a chili pad. Oh yeah, we got that. Okay. Yeah, we talked about one of the hacks that is like, change our life and love like same marriage. My wife is at 85 degrees. I'm at 55 degrees. So we don't have to fight. That's exactly how it is in our house. So it's made our marriage better and my sleep better. You can see suddenly we've given people as a filter to sort of understand all of these things. Is this, you know, like people ask like, what do you think about, what's the best protein? I'm like, well, it's the whole food. And if you can't get whole food, then let's add a protein shake in there. So you hit your protein minimums. And so suddenly people are like, oh, okay. It's, you know, it doesn't matter what protein I have. I'm just like, yeah, I want to get you up to this minimum. So when you start to view it through those lenses then suddenly like my eye mask for me is really important. I've trained myself to sleep on the eye mask because like my flashing toothbrush light will like wake me up in the night or my daughter's leaving a TV on or something that, you know, wakes me up. But that eye mask is, it's one of those pieces, but it's all filtered around. How do I get a better result from the sleep? Yeah, I have one of those. Can I tell you guys a quick story about the chili pad? Princess masks. Oh yes. Can I tell you guys a quick story about the chili pad? So, you know, there's that section in between like his and hers. And it's, we call it the DMZ like between North and South Korea, right? It's like the DMZ. Demilitarized. Yeah, so that's like the DMZ. And we have this, I think we've mentioned it a few times cause he's really impactful in our life, but we have this 15 year old geriatric cat who's just like, he's like a mad old man all the time. But one of the things we're convinced he does on purpose is he gets up on our doc pros. For the nose. And every so often he turns up our doc pros to 115 degrees in the middle of the night. He can turn it up with his paw. He can turn it up with his paw. Hey, stands on it. And so that's the only time you'll find me over in the DMZ is that like sometimes the act of reaching over to turn it back down is too much. So it's just easier to move into the DMZ. But otherwise we're like in our own little universe of the chili pads. That's the sex zone for our house. It's the only place where sex is happening. It happened over in Norway. It happened over there, yeah. Jamaica, it's way too fucking hot. That's the sex zone right there. I think, you know, how are we helping people identify, you know, what is successful? How do you win health? I think it's a good question, right? Because that's how we're playing this game. You know, you're just gonna win, you win fitness. And that's how we've kind of presented it. Three tips, you took your shirt off, you had the bro, all your, you know, the thirst trap, you know, and then you just retire and you walk away, you know? So I think, you know, things should be tracking in your blood panel. You know, you should be feeling better. You should be able to do the things you wanna do. And these objective measurements in the book really do give you ways to have clear lines of above and below. And they're pretty reasonable, but I think that's really the question is, how do we know what's working? Well, we have established some benchmarks for you, but also what's important to you? And are you better able to do the things you care about? That's really quality. That's ultimately how we sell nutrition to people, right? They're like, wow, I was able to do more work and my body composition changed. What is it you were saying? You know, give me more of that. Well, and our feeling on all this technology and tools is we love them and we're users of them, but our sort of general view out into the public is like, do the basics first. Like, hey, maybe wait to spend your hard-earned money on a doc pro or chili pad until you've at least tried to get eight hours of sleep. Like, are you laying in bed for nine hours to get eight hours of sleep? Like, let's do the basics first. And then once you've checked the box on the basics, like then it's a time when you can go explore some of this more complicated, you know, optimizing fitness stuff. I wanna call on everyone who, if you're listening to Mind Pump, you're interested in all of this. This is your jam. It's a hobby, you're a dilettante, you're interested, you'll listen to this, you'll listen to your guests and then track them down. But you are an important node in your family because you have family members who are overweight or on blood pressure medicine. And the only person they're gonna listen to is you. They're not getting, the physician is not set up for it. The physician has six to eight minutes to help someone untangle a common problem, right? That's incomplete. And so we think that if we can sort of deputize our fitness health performance friends to say, hey, look, this is for the neighbor, this book is for my auntie, this is for the person who I work with, I think we can really start to sort of leverage the potential of all of this experiment that we've all been part of. Totally agree. I love that all the tech things that enhance the core things that we talk about, which is also why I brought that up and I love the way you answered it because what you didn't do is you didn't spout off the science that's connected to recovery from like, heat shock proteins and everything else. And it's like, there's a movement right now. I don't know if you guys see it in our community, in this fitness community right now because of course the cold plunge has taken off in the last couple of years, it's getting huge and now it's become very trendy. Now there's the counter message of like, well, the science says that when it comes to recovery and muscle- You're not gonna build as much muscle. Yeah, you won't build as much muscle. And so it's like, stop. First of all, you guys are- Model H, bro, stop. Yeah, you're arguing over the wrong things. You deadlifted 225. Yeah, and so I love the way you guys even communicate those tools is if it's enhancing my sleep, if it's enhancing my relationship with my spouse, if it's enhancing the way I make better choice around food, my foot, I mean, those are the stuff that I love. And then, and you have to decide for yourself, is this over-complicating my fitness journey or is it enhancing it and improving it? And if it's hitting on those core things that we talked about the first hour and a half, like to me, like that's those things are valuable. Here's why I think you guys have written so valuable. It's because you're both really obviously very, very smart people, but for a long time you've worked with everyday regular people. So you know what the books and the literature says, but you know what works in real life and how to apply it. And if you don't have both of those, it just doesn't work. So really appreciate you guys coming on the show. Do a good job with that. Thank you guys so much for having us. It was so fun hanging out with you guys. Absolutely, great conversation. Yeah, good nerds. Yeah, good stuff. Likewise. Although I think we did a very good job. I mean, I don't think that we talked over, we didn't argue and debate studies. I mean, sometimes I feel like that's what our space loves to do, you know, is they love to get into debate of- Those are artifacts of scholarship. That's a feature, but it's not the only feature. It's not the only important feature. 100%. Thanks again guys. Thank you guys so much. Today we're going to teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, chest was up there with the- Yeah, it was for me for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique.