 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Critical Conversations where we talk about hot topic issues related to American Muslims and other targeted communities. Today we will talk about Bridge for Unity, an interracial dialogue project that seeks to build understanding across racial divides. To help us understand the various dimensions of this project we are joined today by Dr. Paula Green who is leading the facilitation and is a co-organizer with Deborah Snow. Dr. Green is also the founder of Karuna Center for Peacebuilding and Professor Emerita at the School for International Training. We are also joined today by Professor Shabazz, Professor Demetria Ruzio Shabazz who is a participant in the project and is also a lecturer of African American Studies at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. She is also the president of the Board of Amherst Media. Thank you both so much for joining us today. Pleasure. So Dr. Green let me begin with you. We were sitting here last year talking about Hands Across the Hills which was another dialogue project that you led between conservatives from Lecher County, Kentucky and progressives from Leverett, Massachusetts. That project still continues but you're right now in the middle of another project around race. What compelled you to talk about and focus on race for this particular dialogue series? Well in one sense we all should be talking about race all the time. That's part of our obligation. It's part of my obligation as a white person who benefits from whiteness in the society and it's part of the responsibility of all of us who live in this country. So that's the background for that. The specifics are that through the Hands Across the Hills dialogue program, Deborah Snow, a friend from Montague, watched what we were doing, was very attracted to the dialogue model and had connections in Buford County, South Carolina with both black and white communities and she got the idea that we take the model and apply it to race. So she was the one who instigated specifically that we do this particular event but the thought behind it has been something that I've thought about for a long time and worked on for a long time. And could you talk about how the project is structured and which communities are part of the dialogue? Yes, Deborah had the partnership with Buford County, South Carolina and that was perfect for us. So we have partners in Buford County, South Carolina and three of them from Charleston, South Carolina. The Massachusetts people are all from Western Mass and we span from Springfield, Holyoke, Amherst, Northampton, way up to Shelburne Falls. So we span the whole valley. Both of the groups are predominantly European-descended Americans and African-descended Americans. We also have two indigenous people in the Massachusetts group, one from Mexico and one from Wisconsin. Additionally, I want to keep Kentucky in the loop because it's important for them and their education and important for us. So I invited a few of the members who participated last time who were European Americans to bring some African Americans and join the group also. So it's actually a three-way dialogue with three very different experiences of being African American, being white American and being indigenous American. Sure. And then the Massachusetts-based group that meets on a regular basis? We meet monthly. We started to meet monthly in the beginning when we formed our relationships and we've continued to have our own dialogue every single month, focusing on our own relationships, deepening our relationships, struggling to understand more about each other, to build our trust with each other. And we did that before South Carolina, then we sort of came back and continued it again. And the model is intensive and immersive, both the three days that we have with each other and the time that we have each month. The South Carolina and Kentucky groups were coming to meet with us the last weekend in June. There'll be a public event in Springfield that I hope people will come to. Excellent. Well, thank you so much. And Professor Shabazz, before you became a participant in the dialogue, you were initially quite skeptical about joining this group and about the project itself. Could you talk us a little bit about what was behind that skepticism? Well, to begin, even during the process, I'm skeptical. And initially, what was part of my skepticism just in joining the process was that I have, with a colleague in communication, also taught dialogue. And what I think is both challenging and powerful about it is that sometimes you're talking to the choir. So these are folks who have already bought into, you know, that we need to talk about race. We need to talk about our differences. We need to bridge the gap. And so you're not reaching necessarily another demographic group. And that's a real difficulty. What is hopeful about dialogue, however, is that in having those conversations amongst folks that we say have bought in or are part of the choir, that they will then utilize those skills, hopefully, that they have learned and talked to family members, talked to their own communities. And so I think in participating with Bridge for Unity and other types of dialogue practices around race and around our differences that it enables us to utilize, learn those skills that we actually take for granted that we think, oh, well, I know how to talk. But there's an actual, you know, skill, there's a knowledge base that we don't necessarily teach in college classes in our high schools, etc., to learn how to talk across these differences and across racial lines. Sure. And you talked about, you know, that most of the people within the group were progressives. And that was your, you know, the basis of your skepticism. But just because somebody is willing to talk or engage in dialogue does not necessarily mean that their education is entirely complete. Exactly. As the kids say, you know, we believe that we're all woke. And what do we do with that knowledge? You know, we realize that there are problems in the world, that there are problems in terms of race. I mean, we just need to look at once again, we have, you know, killing of young black men or shooting of young black people. And we have to ask ourselves why, you know, our police forces and why they have these biases. Right. And again, I feel that talking to other liberals, let's say, or other folks who feel they've reached this kind of plateau of knowledge is really important because we have to critique that and say, what do we do next? What are the next steps? We realize these biases are there. We realize these problems are there that the biases then affect action. What do we do next? And I think that's a real critical part of our conversation that we, a lot of the people of color, but I have to say a lot of the whites within the group as well, are asking what happens after this dialogue. And that is exactly my next question as well. Like, you know, if, given all the structural disparities, given all the institutional racism that currently exists, is there a value in dialogue in and of itself? Or it's just an empty exercise if it does not lead to collective action, especially by participants who are engaged in the dialogue process? How would you respond to that? No, there's definitely a value in dialogue in and of itself. Like I said, we don't necessarily come with the tools. We assume we do because we can talk and we can speak. We come with the tools and how to listen to one another and how to listen to one another where I really hear your story and understand your pain and your joys. You know, what is that like to live in your skin, to live in who you are? I come as a woman that looks like myself, but identifies as an African-American woman from the south, living in the northeast. You know, it has its own particularities within that narrative. And I think it's really important that we learn how to listen to one another's stories in that way, intently, intentionally. And then maybe it won't be the same person in front of you, but there might be an instance where you have a choice to make in terms of bias, you know, institutional otherwise. And what are you going to do with that? So you can definitely, there's a moment in which these dialogues, once again, we humanize one another, but I think it takes it the next step. And there's a lot of intentionality within that process. So, yes, there's a value in dialogue training, but there's also the value of pushing us further, challenging us to say what happens next. Great. And Professor and Dr. Green, how would you respond to that? Well, I would say that dialogue is a tool. It's a tool in peace building. It's a tool in bridging divides. It's a tool in community members understanding each other. And it's not an end in itself. It's a process. And this group has come together with the stated purpose of dismantling racism, at least in our own communities. And we're going there. But I think the fact that we're going there together is what matters, because if we can do this kind of bridging work together and develop in the coming years a project that will do our bit in dismantling racism together as a mixed group, we're setting a model for what we would like people to do in this country, how people can be responsible and how they can do this together. And I think without the dialogue that wouldn't have happened. So, I see that it's a tool and it's a process that we're engaged in. And this is our first year. And when we reconvene again in September, it will be our second year and we'll be figuring out what's our focus, what's our activity and how do we do it together. Excellent. And we'll talk about the collective action that will sort of hopefully come out of this. But I do want to sort of talk about why is race such a difficult issue to talk about? Well, I want to say before we get that one more thing in terms of what Dee said, that I agree with that what we hope is that people take this to their workplaces, their homes and their communities, and either facilitate formal dialogues on their own, because they have a model now to see the skills or the informal conversations that need to happen. The whistleblowing, the stopping, the calling people out, finding ways to do that, finding ways to stand up against racism, every place they see it in their communities and families. And without the tools and skills, it's very hard to do that. People either get angry and attack or they withdraw. And we're wanting to model a third way of dialogue. And with that, it's, you know, we don't have the language anymore to even talk about race. So as you go into, you know, why is race and racism so entrenched within our culture, we've lost in many ways the ability to talk again across those differences because we've lost the language, which is a tool. And so I think it's really important again to participate in the process because racism, I mean, the foundation of our country is built, unfortunately, on those differences. And, you know, black people being formally enslaved, black, you know, Africans, three quarters of a person, you know. So our country is built on that basis. And we have a lot of work to do. So then why is race such a difficult thing to talk about? Well, it feels to me like everyone's afraid of saying the wrong thing. It's people are sensitive and can get hurt. And we don't people don't always know that they're saying something that's appropriate or maybe out of context or or harmful to others. And that's a struggle. And part of that comes as D said, we don't even know each other anymore. We live in separate communities. There's not a lot of cross fertilization in terms of our social lives and our family lives. And so that's another way in which we've lost the conversation and lost the language. And we're out to repair that. And this is tiny, but we're out to set a model. We're educators, DNI are educators. So basically what we want to do is to use this as a model to push it to learn for ourselves and then to push it out into the community and to say to people, this is essential. We have to do this. We cannot get to know each other. We cannot be sensitive to have what it feels to be in someone else's shoes unless we build a real either relationship, which we can do in dialogue. It's very intimate and very honest. And just every conversation. And really, you know, as educators, every course should include some conversation around race. I teach about film and television and popular culture. And my courses always really include intersectionality, whether it's about race, sex, class, gender. And so my students understand at the beginning within my syllabus, this is what you're going to talk about. So get ready. And as we do that, I applaud their courage. Because what we're doing within Bridge for Unity is not easy. And people have to be, they really have to be brave. They have to be courageous. I feel people of color have done this for hundreds of years. And we've had to put on, you know, our armor, so to speak, and prepare daily for everyday, you know, acts of racism, large or small. And so we're asking within Bridge for Unity for people of privilege to come in and kind of wade in those waters with us and take a risk and see hopefully the transformational nature of having these conversations. But it is a risk. And you do have to have a little bit of courage to step into that. And I think it's rewarded on the other end. My, you know, the saying within activism is, of course, my freedom, my emancipation is bound up in yours. And I think we see now within this nation that certainly our emancipation is going to be bound up in everyone's freedom. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think what I would point that you both touched upon is so critical is not having the language to sort of speak about these issues and perhaps having them be taught at the college level or even earlier so that when, you know, young minds are being socialized into these things, they know how to have that conversation. And the intimidation that you said some participants feel in having this conversation around race and saying the wrong thing, that would not arise if people were sort of equipped with the right kind of language and the right kind of approach to sort of engage around these issues. It may still arise. But in a more ideal world, we live together, be in school together, be exposed to each other from the get-go. And we should start teaching these skills and conflict resolution skills to little children and teach them all the way through school. And we've missed the boat on that one. And I think it makes us very stilted as adults in trying to come to these conversations because we're bewildered. And people can't even talk on their families, whether it's about race or politics or class or whatever. We don't talk to anybody about these issues. And I think D is right that it takes a lot of courage for all of us. Every month we're there. We show up. We meet together. We're forming bonds. We're coming to care for each other. That's really very, it's a great privilege for me. It's a great privilege personally to do this. And we trust one another. And the thing is, I don't want us to be disillusioned that we're not going to feel uncomfortable. There's a level of discomfort that we have to just get used to. Particularly if we want to solve these problems that are facing us today within this nation. Whether it has to do with class, whether it has to do with gender, sexual orientation, or particularly race that has been long-standing. We have to get used to the discomfort and say we're going to again be courageous and try to figure it out in a way that hopefully won't increase conflict. And discomfort in the context of this particular dialogue group. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like what does that look like and where is that existing? Like that level of discomfort? Where is that tension that continues to exist despite the fact that you've all been meeting for quite a while now? Well, we don't know each other's life stories. We're just learning each other's life stories. We don't know what people have done, how they've been hurt, how they've experienced it, how they've been raised in terms of the values around race, how they've been traumatized. I think for African American people they don't know the history of the white people in the group either in terms of what the European American people have done in this area, what their experience is. So we're starting in kind of an interpersonally blank slate in terms of getting to know each other and having to build relationships and build trust. And I feel like we started last September, maybe something like that. And so it's almost a year. It's different now than it was. It's more trusting. It's more honest. And it's more difficult because we're telling more truth. Right. Delving deeper. We're delving deeper. It's intense. And when we have the South Carolinas and the Kentuckians here, we'll have three days all day to be doing this and delving even more deeply and then looking there at what are the differences and the similarities and what are our experiences and how do we take this nation forward? How do we take ourselves forward? And to be honest and to be truthful, those, when you talk about the difficulty and the discomfort, that's when it comes in. But, you know, you have to build some trust that will get through this together, which is really important. And how did that work for you? I mean, given your initial skepticism and how has the trust that has developed allowed you to perhaps open up a bit more and, you know, what were some of the techniques used to build that trust, whether formal or informal? So there's different ones. And maybe you can speak to the techniques because we did some different exercises within South Carolina. One that I recall that I thought was really helpful in opening up a lot of discussion. And there were the cards that we utilized and there were cards that were developed by another group that does dialogue training. But I thought they were really helpful in getting things going because you sit together and there's this level of politeness because we're taught to be polite to one another and some things are just rude to discuss. And so the cards enabled us to get past that. And some of the things that were on the cards, there were cards that were given to people of color. And then there were cards that were given to people who identified as white. And those cards differed in terms of their questions. So, you know, I'm trying to remember one of the questions on the card. And I can't right now. But do you remember one of the questions? So, but they were they were about differences. So, you know, maybe it had to do with why are you so afraid of black men or something, you know, something that kind of cuts to the core. Because again, we're trying to break through, you know, being polite to one another. So, politically incorrect prompts that would allow you to then just speak your heart. That express a level of honesty, not for everybody. That doesn't mean that that because we're basically just choosing these randomly. But some of the things that might come up in discussions across racial lines, let's say. And it gave people a chance to say, what do you want to say to each other? And what do you want to ask of each other? Right. You know, it was kind of permission, which the whole dialogue process does, whether without the hard exercise. What is it you need to say? Exactly. How do you want to be seen? How do you want to see others? What are the silent questions that you haven't asked? What are the emotions that are arising for you at the moment? And talking about them and surfacing them, which is why it's an exercise for the brave. It really is. It does require a lot of courage. And so, you know, Paula, in terms of you engaging and you had a mixed group of people, and but we often hear from, you know, our African-American members of the African-American community that they are tired of educating white folk around issues of racism, around issues of race, and that they need to educate themselves around these issues before they engage. Did you encounter some of that within the group dynamics? Well, first of all, to say that there's always an African-American co-facilitator with me, whether it's in South Carolina, whether it's here in Western Mass, so that there's two of us planning the questions, teasing them out, revealing them, wondering what are we going to do next? What's their right direction? Where do we go? So it's not just my perspective, which would not be a good thing at all. And what I found was that people were ready to go very deep in this group. They ready for the hard questions. They didn't want to sit around and make small talk. This is not why we're there. When I went to South Carolina, I thought, well, I have three days and I could spend the whole first day doing sort of simple exercises to get people ready. And I thought, no, I'm going to plunge right in because we don't have the time. And the very first question was, what were your experiences of race as you grew up? What do you remember from your childhoods and your early adult life? And that was true for whites, blacks, and indigenous people. We had people in mixed groups, mixed parts of the country, and mixed races. And it took hours to talk about that. So once it starts to surface, there's all kinds of things that people can ask each other. And those were small groups of four that's pretty safe and a good place to kind of test out your your wings of asking questions and responding to others. Sure. And what about you, Dmitriya? Did you did you have that sense of, you know, why am I here educating this larger community about, you know, but, you know, you have to understand as a black person in America, or I think a person of color in America that sits, you know, literally at tables with where you're the racial minority most often, that we're used to that dynamic that, okay, once again, this is going to be a moment in which I have to make a choice. And I think it is a choice. Do I share some of myself that will basically help these folks, you know, learn more about me and about my racialized experience. And there were certainly those moments. The hope and I think what I experienced at least in my small groups was that I also was able to learn and learn kind of the individualized experience of the folks who participated in Bridge for Unity, as well as them learning about me. And that in it of itself was extremely helpful because what I learned is that here we have maybe some class dynamics or how this person experienced growing up in a rural area that was very similar to my parents perhaps, you know, or my own working class background. And I could identify with that and how they were shaped as this human being. You know, so I think that it's reciprocal, but we don't often get to feel that as a person of color because there may be 10 folks literally at that table and there may be only one of us. And so it is, we get exhausted. But I think having these opportunities in smaller groups where again, folks are willing to take the risk and to share that in and of itself will help us learn. And to once again say that our liberation is tied up in yours and refuel us because we need to nurture that as folks here in the United States wanting to make this nation better. People of color, yes, we're exhausted. But I think now more than ever, this nation needs us. But we have to be appreciated for what we're giving back in terms of education, you know, talking about just kind of spiritual renewal and the intelligence that we have brought since being brought to these shores that it's needed. And so we're going to have to work together. But we need co-conspirators, I like to say, it's not necessarily the allies that I think we assume that through dialogue, we're building this allyship. We need folks who are co-conspirators and what I mean by that, they are willing to do the work to organize, right, to really work in terms of changing institutional biases and racism, but as well socially and economically. So I think, you know, we have to think of it that way that the hard work is really recruiting co-conspirators and this noble cause, so to speak. And so speaking of dismantling racism and institutional racism, Paula, I mean, what do you hope will result from this experience? Well, I want to say in terms of what Dia was saying, we're in this together. We can't do this alone. Either race can do it alone. That what has to happen to change the institutional and structural racism in this country requires all of us and all of our hands. And for me, the fact that we're doing this together is the only way to really do it. Because we don't know each other otherwise. We can't speak for each other otherwise. And there's no bridging without someone at the other end of the bridge. Absolutely. So we're meeting and we're meeting in the middle of the bridge here and doing what we have to do. So what I hope is going to come for this, I'm hoping that we're focused right now on June because we've got a very big group coming and we've got a lot of planning to do and we want three very successful days with our South Carolina and Kentucky partners and then we'll have a summer break. And my hope is that in the fall that we'll be looking at what do we do together? How do we take this out into the world? And D and Shabas have both talked about our own community and how much is needed right here in the valley. And there's plenty to do here and that's probably where we'll start because that's a good place and the reparations talk last month stimulated more questions. We want to work on that. So we don't know what the issue is, but my hope is that our passions and our caring about each other is going to take us into a very strong action come next year. It's unpredictable what it's going to be. And I also want that for South Carolina and for Kentucky. In Kentucky they've never had a Morton Luther King Day because there's very few black people and they're terrified to be out. They're afraid they're going to lose their jobs or their housing. They're doing one now. They're planning for it because they had this experience with us. So we're wanting to plant seeds in all three states where we are. Great. Well thank you both so much for your insights. Unfortunately we've run out of time, otherwise we could have talked all day. So thank you both so much. Until next time, this is your host, Mahlaka Sundan.