 Everybody back here to the Siegel talks at the Monteney Siegel Theto Center, the Graduate Center CUNY, the City University of New York in Manhattan. And while slowly spring is approaching and while slowly around the world and some countries, the life is taking first steps to get back to normal. We in New York are still under lockdown. It's still the epicenter here and the city is closed. We can't get out. I know in France it was a D-Day they called it yesterday where you can go out for the first time. I think with masks stores are opening. You can go and buy clothes, but you can't touch the clothes. You can try them on and only one or two people in the store. So it gives us a little hint of what's happening. We heard from South Africa yesterday. We heard last week from Romania, from complicated situations in Hungary and others. So now today we are turning to the Ukraine. We have with us a significant and important playwright, Natalia Boryshbid, who has been at the Siegel, whose work has been shown at the Royal Court and many, many other places. She was also a good friend of the late Elise Dongsson, who was a good friend of the Siegel Center, who we miss very much, who passed away unexpectedly. And with us also we have Alice Terekov, a translator who is joining us from Brussels to do that good friend of Natalia. So thank you both for coming. It is a time where we need to listen to voices of artists, where we need to hear really, really hear what they are saying. Perhaps these existences we all have now, where there's a fixed reality outside and uncertainty in science, where we spend time with ourselves, is a time perhaps we can listen a little bit more. That questions were very basis of our existence, also of our work and what we do. Ukraine is very much in the international news for many years now, but when it comes to corona and everything, it's also what we hear, messages are very confusing. So what is going on in Ukraine, Natalia, can you tell us a little bit? Now the situation, sorry, the situation in Ukraine is not stable for the last six years, because the war started in 1940, and it is still going on. So Natasha would like to comment first on the general situation, which is for the last six years is quite unstable and complex, because in 2014 the war that was provoked by Russian Federation has started and it has been going on ever since. We have changed the political situation very much, last year we won the election of the president in exchange for the Ukrainian position, and therefore today the situation has deteriorated, and this is exactly why in the world, so little is said about Ukraine, because the situation has started to unfold back. So the political situation has changed about a year ago when the president and new president was elected, who is kind of less pro-Ukrainian, and in a way the general direction has been kind of turning back. That's why Ukraine is kind of less talked about or less urgent in the news. So coronavirus has sort of landed in Ukraine on a bizarre soil, on a not very kind of, yeah basically in a way dealing with it, it has been some kind of a relief. What do you mean by a pause? A pause between war, some kind of active actions, some kind of struggle, and I will say it later. When she meant relief, she was more referring to certain pause, pause in fighting, pause in the war activities, pause in some kind of activity that was so unsettled before. So she was actively spreading the rumor, the fact that it is very difficult to check, that Putin was going to make some kind of action before the elections, which was supposed to take place on April 22 in Russia. He was planning a massive nuclear attack on Ukraine. And that's why for Ukrainians in some sense it is a temporary salvation, so that everything becomes a pause. But prior to elections in Russia on the 22nd of April, Putin had in mind a very big attack, potentially a nuclear attack or just a massive attack on Ukraine. All this corona stuff has kind of paused the elections and also paused those plans, whether they were rumors or not. So for six years you have war in your own country? So corona virus is for you, as you say, perhaps even more kind of a break or a relief, where everything is pausing, when things come to an halt that perhaps could get worse. That is, yes, in some sense corona is a little less scary, it turned out, well, probably, than war. But it doesn't mean, of course, that we don't get sick, people don't die. It doesn't mean that thousands and thousands of people, millions, probably remained unemployed. It's all, of course, sad. But the general mood is that we have a break. So in a way, yes, to what you've said, and it's kind of, the virus scenario is kind of a deviation, a better option in a way. It doesn't mean it's a good option. It doesn't mean that people are not suffering, people are not dying, and thousands or maybe millions by now people are made redundant and have no work and no means to earn. So it's not a good scenario, but in a way it's kind of a better one compared to what it could have potentially been. So all war activities in the occupied territories that has all stopped? Well, at least they are not on pause, something is happening all the time, people are dying there, but there is no deterioration of the situation, there is no, as it were, of the offensive. So in a way it's not completely paused, there are things happening there all the time. But at least there is no attack, it doesn't advance, it doesn't get worse. What things happen there at the moment? And what is happening there at all? What is happening there now? This is a vial of the current conflict on both sides. The conditional border is located in the military unit, which, from time to time, makes exits and such attacks. People are dying. So basically, the situation is kind of a war situation, but it's soft in a way. And there is military forces on both sides of a so-called border, and they kind of cross the border into each other's territories on a regular basis and kind of make some activities. Exchange fire? Yes, there are cases, yes. But it's more of an everyday soft version. The government in Ukraine also is not decisive when it came to corona. Can you tell us a little bit about your government, and if you trust what they do? How does the government react? Yes, there is a feeling that they are not decisive enough, and what is the attitude towards the government and what it does. Do they trust him? It's always different, there is no single opinion. There are a lot of dissatisfaction with the fact that the quarantine method is so long, that it is so big that there are so many unlimited restrictions, there are prohibitions, everything else. But my feeling is that, in fact, it's all ... I don't really like our government, but it seems to me that they did a lot of things right. That is, they overestimated themselves. They closed a few things, of course. And thanks to this, there were not so many terrible consequences in the country as in other countries. So, basically, there is no, of course, shared opinion that everybody shares. There is not one opinion. But basically, there are lots of people saying unhappy about all the restrictions and all the things closed and you can't go for a walk and this and that, and it's been going on for too long, so they're not happy about that. But in a way, even though Natasha is saying that she's not an admirer of the government in general at the moment, though she believes that they've acted wisely in a way that they acted in a strict way, they kind of overdone it maybe a bit, maybe, but all the restrictions and this overdoing it as a reaction probably led to the situation getting as bad as in some places in the world. There is still opinions, you know, rumors going on and people believing that there is no actual virus. It doesn't actually exist and it's all some conspiracy special services in America included or somewhere else. But this also exists as a fallout for how long have you been under lockdown in Kiev? For two months. For two months. So how is the situation for theater artists in the Ukraine at the moment? Well, of course, all the theaters are closed. Just a few days ago, the rehearsals were allowed. State theaters, the artists continue to get salaries and in general, it's not scary for them, but independent theaters, of course, are dying, literally dying because they can't pay the rent, they are actors, well, in general, it's a disaster. So, I mean, theaters are closed. And a few days ago, there was some kind of allowance in terms of rehearsing. So rehearsals are possible now under certain conditions. In state theaters, the staff is actors and all artists are getting paid regularly. But of course, all the independent scene is in big trouble because independent theaters can't pay rent, they're not earning anything, so it's basically a disaster in many other places in the world. Not everyone can watch theater from the screen, that is, not everyone accepts it. And of course, lots of theaters were sharing those performances they've got on the video, but not everybody can connect to a performance on a laptop screen. So, but they were doing it. Under what conditions are rehearsals allowed at the moment? So basically, Natasha is saying, because I am not in rehearsals, I don't have a personal experience, she is not in rehearsals. So, she basically doubts that the mechanism is somehow written down in detail anywhere at all. So, I mean, she supposes that the actors and everybody should be wearing masks and, you know, have antiseptics and I don't know, whatever. Social distancing and all that, but she doesn't have any experience and also doesn't know whether they follow or not, or where are those instructions, maybe they've been sent. How does it feel for Natalia to be a playwright in a country where there was a war going on in its own territory for over five, six years, and now being at home for two months, not being able to go out, how does it feel? What are your feelings like a playwright who lives in a country where there was a war and sits at home for two months? What are your personal feelings? Well, for a playwright, it's probably a situation of grace, in the sense that there is something to write about, and of course, a wound that doesn't heal, it contributes to the search for a new piece. But a strange feeling, yes, with this two-month break, as if you were running somewhere all the time, running, running, running, and you couldn't even stop and think about what was going on, but suddenly you were stopped, and somewhere else they were running somewhere, and suddenly, all the time, even some difficult things, I thought about it tomorrow, but also the war, I thought about it tomorrow, and this tomorrow came during quarantine. Let's translate a little bit. Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you. So basically for a playwright, in a way, it's a brilliant situation with no distractions and everything, and also the wound that is not healing, the inside wound, the trauma that is not healing itself, is kind of a constant source of things to write about, to create new plays and new writing, but you write with these two months in space. The feeling is that I've been running, we've all been running, running, running, and now we've been stopped, but the legs are still running, and there were tough subjects, i.e. war, etc., that you were kind of postponing in terms of meditating on or thinking about, and it's like, okay, I'm going to think about it tomorrow, but now is tomorrow. Now is the time, there's no excuse to postpone. So basically during these peaceful two months, the biggest realizations or meditations on the past few years have been happening, and in this pause you look outside and there's beautiful spring, beautiful weather, and everything is kind of still and not moving, and this is kind of the beauty of the end of the world sort of situation. So what you say in the meditations, what goes through your mind when you say, now you are thinking about all you are supposed to think about, what do you think about? When you say that there's nothing to postpone and you need to think about serious things, what thoughts do you have? Probably, well, about the future, first of all, what will be for me and my family, and what will be generally for humanity. Probably about myself and my family, of course, think more about my country. So probably it's mostly about the future, what's it going to be like after this, and my future as well as my family's future, as well as the future of humanity, but mostly my future and the future of my family probably, yes, and my country. Also, there is this new fear that is developing that after the pandemic, I don't want to, I probably won't say that for the first time now, but if you go through it, it's like before some storm. I hope I'm wrong. Also, there is this new fear that is developing that after this quarantine is over and it will be over at some point. Something horrific is going to follow. Something is going to start that is being postponed now. I never probably verbalized this before this moment, but hopefully I'm wrong in this expectation of some horror following this peaceful and lack of action and quietness. I really hope that I am mistaken in my expectations. So you hinted that your fear that Russia will launch a military strike and use this preparation, this pause for preparation. You talked about an open wound that normally is there for writing. What is that open wound for you? What does it mean? I've never thought that I'm going to live through wartime and that war is going to be a subject of my creative writing, that this is what I'm going to be writing about. So that ongoing war is something that is so overpowering that it is hard for you to even imagine different subjects? Of course there are other subjects and when it's been going on for a while, life goes on and people get distracted and people forget a little bit and it's talked less about. So there are other subjects that pop up, of course. So basically there is a certain use. You kind of get used to the situation of the war going on and in a way it informs your writing in some way, but a bit less dramatic, less tragic. But these two months of a pause, they sort of bring back the fears and bring back the sharpness of realisation of what's going on. So basically the war is not restricted by its location in Ukraine. If you look further into the world, there are a lot of conflicts, there are a lot of troubles of all sorts. And in a way you kind of lose ground from underneath your feet more and more. So all of these things they're not just about these worries and these fears, they're not just located in Ukraine and Ukrainian people. It's basically what occupies the minds of all thinking people at the moment. When did you become, when did you think about becoming a writer? And do you think in the face of war and violence, do you think what is the place of a theater writer, of a theater artist or theater itself? Do you mean when she was even planning to become a writer? Yeah. When did you think about becoming a writer? And if you remember that feeling of a place of a writer in the world and a place of a theater writer, a theater artist, a person who writes for a theater now, who is his place? Well, it's between those people who started, who are now, of course, a great prophet, two different people. But I, to be honest, I was brought into this sphere in life, into the theater, and I went into this process without thinking at all. I didn't even remember anything, to be honest, what I was thinking about at the theater. So basically there is such a huge distance between that person and this person right now. I was kind of led by life and I was led into this sphere of life, of theater, and in a way I was quite irresponsible and just kind of unthoughtful when I walked onto this territory. I remember that I quickly understood enough that it was a good means for me to understand some of the issues that are tormenting me, my problems, my injuries, and I just didn't know that such a volume, well, from the age, there was just a volume of these problems, injuries, experiences, compared to when I was 20 years old. Again, there was no war, there were not many things that exist now. Well, understanding is still there. So basically at some point I realized that a theater play, a script, is a very good way for me personally to deal with my own issues, questions, problematic and traumatic experiences, that it's kind of my very efficient tool. And with time and with time going on and with age as well, these things acquired volume. So compared to what I was when I was 20 and with those issues and problematics, I mean, there was no war at that time. Now there is, it's just everything acquired volume. And the understanding and realization, the understanding is grown. Well, I guess I started to take more of myself. If I used to be egocentric, then now I'm probably, since, well, I guess I'm also self-explanatory, and since I got used to working with documentary materials, with material stories, then all the last years it's learning, communication with a huge number of people, with a heavy weight. I probably would say that I now take on more onto myself and kind of take on bigger subjects into my writing. If before I would probably say I was more egocentric and was kind of dealing with my own things more than anything else. But, you know, there is a limit to that. There is a limit. And for the last few years, I've been working a lot with people in terms of documentary theater. And so it's now more and more studying and researching lives of people that are full of hardships and of all sorts, full of troubles. So it's kind of broader. What is the role of theater artists in the Ukraine, in society? What is the status of theater in the Ukraine? Well, until recently, theater in Ukraine was quite conservative, not modern. The process, probably, is the same war, as strange as it is, the theatrical situation is much better. So there were a lot of young artists. So basically up to a certain point in the past theater in general, in Ukraine was quite conventional, quite conservative, sort of old fashioned and opposite to contemporary sort of thing. And in a way, the air that was brought in by the war and the change was kind of a good one. Lots of artists, lots of young artists with new things appeared. So where is your place in there? What do you think is the theater important in Ukraine? What is your hope that the theater will be doing? What is the name of the theater? What is your hope? What should the theater be? What is your hope for the role of theater in the future? And what should they do? What are their responsibilities? Well, their responsibility is to be in the present day and reflect, to analyze everything that is happening in the modern world, to ask the most difficult questions to the public, to the audience. So probably the responsibility of theater artists at the moment is to stay in the now, in the current moment, have the courage to do so and to have the courage to keep on reflecting on what is going on, to keep on asking uncomfortable questions, asking themselves, asking society, you know, the audiences. Well, as any art, theater should also expand its knowledge and not entertain, or repeat some old story. As any art theater is there to give a way of expending consciousness or a way of thinking as opposed to entertaining or providing a distraction. So it's a way of expanding the thinking and the consciousness. Is there anything changing in your mind for those two months that you have time to think? Do you think your work in theater will change? For those two months, how did your consciousness and feelings change? How do you think it will change what you did before? I was in different states for these two months. From the first state it was quite hysterical, it seemed that now I have time to do everything and I will write a few pieces. Instead of that, I was doing other things. During these two months I have been in different states of myself. I experienced different stages. The first one was a kind of hysterical one and very agitated. Now everything is paused. I'm going to keep up with everything that I've been postponing. I'm going to write a lot. I'm going to finish everything that has been unfinished. Here is the time. It was a very fun time to spend with friends who came to Taycum, who were also in quarantine. We had such a narrow circle. It all resembled the characters of Chekhov who had absolutely nothing to do. They carried themselves on different fields. Then there was also a stage of a fun stage of having fun with friends who were not seeing anybody who were in lockdown but would secretly somehow make their way and we would spend time together. It was very comparable to those characters in Chekhov's plays that had nothing really to do or to work on. They were spending time at each other's country houses and doing nothing much. Last week there was a moment of enlightenment and tension I would say. And it's been recently this other stage that is more of some kind of enlightenment or some kind of things got clearer and more thoughtful and more kind of grounded and thoughtful. That's what I think. To be honest, I think people don't really change after quarantine. I don't see any big changes in their personality. People forget everything and they go through fear. It seems to me that the experience of working and interacting with personal contact is the real discovery of that time. And when I'm in this more thoughtful situation, I don't see any bigger and calmer state of processing things. This is what I've come to so far. Which is basically that people won't really change after this lockdown is over. People are very forgetful about what's happening that will completely transform what follows after. People are forgetful and experiences and worries and fears pass and they are memories. They become memories. But this type of communication is so intense recently. Everybody will share that and everybody will remember that. In general, the idea to pause at least a few years to relax nature is a good idea. The main thing is that it is not easy to think that time will come in time. Generally, this idea of a pause for everyone is quite a positive idea. Maybe we need to think of something that would be a regular thing every now and then. We organize this huge pause for the world to have a little rest from us and our activities. Ideally it wouldn't be organized by the illness but more organized by us, more initiated by people and organized as a reoccurring, as a regular thing. How do you organize your day and do you have time to write? Do you write? Yes, I do. I live in Kyiv and I live in Kyiv and now I live in Kyiv with my family and I have more responsibilities on the one hand. On the other hand, I don't need to run or go anywhere. I just need to have the opportunity to write and work in a very nice office with a massage. I'm normally based in Kyiv but right now I'm away from the city in my country house with all my family. I now have more like domestic responsibilities and things to do and organize but at the same time I have less things to run to go to drive to. I don't have to drive anywhere. I'm just based here, I have all my meetings and I kind of have more time and a very nice view onto the garden and yeah, there is space to work. The only difference is that my family is also at home. If they used to go to school for work now they are at home and need a lot of attention. I think that this is a situation that doesn't complicate everything. The only complication for me as a writer is that compared to normal life there is a difference because all my family is constantly around and goes nowhere and needs my attention much more not to say all the time that everybody is experiencing the same so for a writer it's a bit of a difficulty to deal with. So you are in a way in confinement but you are missing the solitude you need to write. Yes, very much. So do you write for two or three hours or what? I don't know how to organize my work that's why I write only when I need to give up something I wait for some text from me. Now I write first of all I wait for the song and I dance every day near the computer to continue. So basically I'm quite bad with organizing my own work schedule or discipline and I mainly write when there is a deadline and somebody is really waiting for me to send something and so currently there is a Royal Court Theatre in London that is waiting for me to come up with a script and I do regularly dance around my laptop to produce something and to keep on my work on that. There is a problem that the song was also written by Alice Thompson but the time has changed for the past two years from the moment we came up with the project that for me it is not so relevant it is a big problem. The big difficulty here is that this idea was born when Alice Thompson was still alive two years ago and the situation has changed so much that the urgency of the subject or the whole idea is a bit less relevant for me now so that's a challenge in terms of writing that. Does writing give you something in these times to hold on or would you rather not write at all and experience the moment and wait till it's over? What you are writing gives you some kind of a soil or would you rather not write and just relive it and then start working again? Yes I have a feeling that I would rather relive everything and then reflect a little and then start working. There is indeed some kind of a feeling inside that this kind of a feeling lost and kind of not having a ground to say yes that I do want I wish I could sort of just live through it and process it and digest and then go back to active writing But when I don't do anything I have a feeling that I am wasting time and I can't afford to waste time but when I'm not doing anything following this desire and this logic I feel like I'm losing precious time so I start doing something and this is the vicious circle that never allows me to stop working and process things so every point is triggering itself One of the messages we heard from many writers is that it's okay not to write it's okay to experience it and to make sense out of later not to always be busy and to see also what is happening so in progress do you read a lot then or how do you keep your mind busy or is your mind also taking a pause I read a little I listen to music that my husband plays in general I like it I really like to be in nature and spend time on walks in the garden and I spend a lot of time digging gardens, planting some plants so that I don't get distracted and we watch a lot of movies I do not read that much at the moment I listen to music that my husband plays which the majority of it I like what I am really enjoying at the moment is nature and having this contact with nature so I love walks I love being in the garden I love doing something in the vegetable garden planting something and really fascinated by this it's really bizarre because I am so inexperienced in this in my past I have never had time to do any of these things in the garden and with plants so the way life slows down we see plants grow we see things we normally don't pay so much attention to and this is one of the things that we take walks work in nature cook take care of us and our loved ones and our family do you think that theatre and performance will help to process this moment do you think that theatre is a medium that at the moment works in your country for the society to work through social problems, political problems, personal problems or is it television shows or movie theatres how is the mood in the Ukraine in the theatre what is the activity of the theatre how do you think it will help or now actively helps the society through all these processes to work through and support and now and the future friend do you mean now or in the future after, yeah in the future, yeah will it help to survive it all I hope as a part of this process I will participate in this and support some initiatives I think people will miss work and I hope that something will change I really believe so that theatre will be active and useful in processing whatever we are experiencing right now and me as a tiny little part of this huge mechanism I will support initiatives that would be coming up I'm sure and I believe that people will be artists will be so hungry after all this time when they were deprived of the opportunity of being together and creating together that they will be really up for collaborating and working and making things better but on the other hand we were forced to finance it and the government didn't pay much for the theatre so we can't get any grants so we can't imagine what I said but at the same time I remember all the financial cuts because the government has cut a lot of finances so there are not that many grants we can apply for and in a way everything that I have just said I'm not quite sure what are the practicalities of all these things that we would be so up for doing after Olimpia Dukak is a great actress from America who ran a theatre of her own she said the reasons why she got into theatre have nothing to do with the reason why she is still doing theatre and perhaps that's good and bad on both sides are you finding a new reason, will you find a new reason to be in theatre, will you be reinforced in your choice to create theatre will you think that perhaps in that war times you are in that theatre is not able to really help shape, bring change I would probably understand I see less and less reason for myself to work in theatre I have been working in films lately I have been inspired in Ukraine because the situation with the theatre is not simple our theatre world is very small and I don't know where to go next, what direction to develop that's why I don't do a lot of things for myself I see less and less reasoning for myself personally in terms of development in theatre unfortunately in Ukraine I am more and more engaged in working with films scripts and I am more and more inspired by that field generally the situation with theatre is quite complex for many reasons here I don't really see clearly a future for myself in there I wouldn't bet that I have lots in the future we really thank you so much for taking the time to give us an update on the atmosphere from the Ukraine that for 5-6 years lives through war where corona time is a happy break with some kind of relief for most of the world it gives us an idea of what you all go through really thank you for sharing and giving us a hint how it must be for you to create and to work and others thank you for translating and one can feel how serious the situation is I hope that your prophecy is not realising for the Ukraine or for all of us many artists comment that the climate change will be the big thing this might be just a little early rehearsal a gentle one and that what mankind is facing as problems will be more severe and come back and that we will have to change and we will find ways to do that together to participate as Peter Seller said and to be engaged and also to prepare for the time afterwards tomorrow we have a guest from Palestine and Pidan Zaidan will talk to us about the situation there we will hear from Brazil we will talk about the situation also in a country that is facing so many problems and on top of it Edouard Elvismouma and Ermin Yolo from Cameroon will give us an update from how they experience this moment we all do experience it very very differently and today we got a slice of a reality from Ukraine, from Kiev and from her country house so really thank you for sharing and serious about this situation we all in, we all share and we do care about you and everybody who was here in the program, the work you do for the theater and I do hope that it will be a more optimistic time also coming especially for the Ukraine and that their solutions will be found and perhaps this pause might help you said it came to a stop I don't know what lies in front of us thank you all for listening again to our listeners I know how much is out there, how much you all do and how much we have taken up with our daily lives where in a way as Natalia said we are never alone but we also not in the company we are normally are it's a strange situation with many beautiful moments but also complicated ones for everybody complicated, complicated ways of living for many people on the on earth and I think theater has always been on the side of life and has been at the forefront anticipates perhaps also possible solutions and so thank you for giving an insight thanks to Hallround for hosting us out of Emerson College in Boston and the Segal team, Andy Jacqui and Sanyang and I hope to see you again we'll be back to the Segal Theatre and the World Court Commission will work out well and there will be opening nights in Kiev with the work of yours and the community will get together so thank you all and stay safe and stay tuned into us and I hope to hear and see you all again bye bye