 Welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookie Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, what part do the creative arts have to play in the catch-up curriculum? And I'm in conversation with Helen Pitchford. Hi, I'm Helen. I'm a playing creative arts therapist. I work mainly with secondary pupils across the West Midlands. But I also do some primary work and some adult work as well. And I'd quite like to do group work if I can, especially with families. And the question that we were going to discuss today, although we'll see where our conversation takes us, but was what part of the creative arts have to play in the catch-up curriculum? And there's kind of there's loads to unpack there. But I'm particularly interested because you're doing this more creative kind of work with slightly older children and lots of people I've spoken to have had great ideas about what we do with little ones. But I'm interested in what does this look like for our secondary school aged kids? So yeah, it'd be lovely to hear your kind of initial take on that. Yeah, absolutely. And it's really it's nice to be asked about that because I think a lot of the focus, a lot of the time is on the little ones. And I'm not taking anything away from that because they're essential. You know, that age group is crucial. But what I find in my line of work, you have so many kind of multi sensory things that are worked and used with little ones, you know, from infants into primary. And sadly, it gets to secondary and the curriculum changes quite quickly. And they're expected to almost be young adults in some places and in some schools. And I think people forget in terms of their development, child development, they're still children, they're still developing, their brains are still developing. And for me, in my role, I still take a lot of things with me that I would people would ordinarily look at and think, Oh, my word, I wouldn't use that for the teenager. Gosh, they'd look at me like screw their faces up and like to call for that. But I don't find it works like that. I find again, people forget that a lot of the young people I work with they have this brick wall, they have this facade and people can be scared to go behind that. But actually, they're just vulnerable children. They're scared to children and make, you know, in teenage bodies. And they still like to do the things that some of the younger children do, but you can change the format of that to make it more age appropriate. So a lot of the young people I work with, they love painting and drawing really sensory creative things. And what I tend to find, sadly, again, a lot of schools at the moment they haven't always got the resources or the focus is very much on maths, English science, the key curriculum and all the creative arts, whether it be drama and, you know, the art lessons, music, all of those things. The kind of the focus is taken away a bit because it's very much about exams and getting those exam results. And for young people to learn, they've got to feel safe. That is the priority for them to learn. They've got to feel safe and to enable them to feel safe. They need to be doing sensory creative things to support that. And obviously, it's, you know, slightly more complex than that. But once you've got that young person and you're on a level with them and you do creative things with them to see them relax and to see that brick wall come down, it's just beautiful because they become different people and they will talk to you on a level with you that you don't get ordinarily. They respect you and they understand that you genuinely want to listen to them. You want to listen, you want to connect to them. So in secondary, I feel very, very privileged to be working in that area. A lot of people are frightened to work with teenagers. And to me, the ones that sometimes people find the toughest to work with are my favourites. They're the ones I'm like, yeah, come on, man, give them to me. I want to work with them. Why is that? I think because, you know, the saying goes, hurt people, hurt people. And I think it's very easy for some people to kind of... I suppose we look at adults and our, you know, fight-flight response, really. That's what I'm thinking about. We're all human beings. We all get triggered. And when you're in an environment, if I'm putting myself in the place of a teacher, perhaps, and they're challenged by a young person, they're challenging that teacher because deep down they're vulnerable, they're scared. But it doesn't come across like that. And it can come across as rude, you know, intolerant. They don't want to learn. They don't want to engage. And it's nothing to do with that. There's always a hidden story behind that. And I think that's when I feel quite privileged because I, in my role, get to see that side. And some of the best teachers I get to work alongside and work with are those that are willing to kind of... They see that. They take that on board and realise, yes, I've got my own responses, my own gut instincts to things. Things are going to trigger your own responses to get angry or frustrated. But sometimes when you take a step back and think, actually, they want to connect with you, what they're trying to do is have that connection with you. And what they're trying to do is communicate how they're really feeling. And if you give them time and patience, they're kind of testing those boundaries and they will come back to you. And you can build a relationship with young people. How do you go about kind of beginning to kind of break down that wall and create an acceptability around these different ways of working with them? So you said that many people wouldn't think to go in with the pain or play with older kids. So presumably you've got to build up a bit of trust and make this feel OK. How do you do that? Definitely. Well, I think consistency is really important to have that consistency all the time and for them to know, no matter what happens, you're always going to be there for them. So I think in terms of if we were looking at a teaching role, I'd be looking, it wouldn't matter what lesson I'm teaching, I'd be looking at making things more creative and more practical within those lessons. And I think, I mean, if you think of an adult, when we go and do training, there's nothing worse if you know you're on training for a day or a week and you're sat in front of a PowerPoint presentation for the whole day and thinking, oh, my gosh, and you just know at some point your brain's going to switch off. But if you've got that teacher that's always there for them, that's willing to listen and no matter what behaviours they throw at you, you're like, OK, it's OK. I'm going to stay here. I'm not going anywhere. And the activities you kind of bring, like I'll give you an example. I know somebody like in geography had quite a difficult class in geography. And they brought in lots of practical elements to help support the young people and make it more multi-sensory. So get the play-dohing, get the plasticine, making volcanoes, rivers, you know, all those kind of things, have a practical lesson. And as soon as you do stuff like that and yes, don't get me wrong, you will get young people, oh, this is for babies. I don't want to do this or this is for little ones. Again, that's their barrier. They're looking cool in front of their peers. They want to be part of that peer group. You know, it's not good to be the outcast or the outgroup. They want to be part of that community. And if you can bring in those elements bit by bit, week by week, lesson by lesson and show that consistency and that support, they will be there. They will listen and they will see a different side to you. And they will see it as well. And I think this is really important. I think sometimes a curriculum, unfortunately, there's so much pressure on teachers now to get it right and get children through exams. All that creativeness they brought in when they started their teacher training and they really wanted to bring those elements in. In some respects, it's knocked out to them and they've got so much pressure and they think, oh, I've got to do this. I've got to deliver it in this way. But once they get to know their pupils and they're in the class, there are things you can bring in those elements that those young people will trust you. They will learn to trust you and they say, actually, you're not quite like some of the other teachers. You are, you're human. That's what they need to see sometimes, that human side. I think that's really, really important. And do you think these kind of ideas, and so you're talking about kind of literally interweaving this kind of practical and more kind of play and imaginative sort of approach, sort of through everything, like a bit of a golden thread. But obviously in your kind of work, you think about using it specifically to kind of overcome sort of challenge and difficulty. And do you think that there's something here for everyone or is it more helpful to some kids than others? Or yeah, who's it for? I think everybody, I really do. I, how I came into this career, I changed career. I'm 14 now, I changed career when I was 27 and I completely retrained. And I actually, how I started off, I went to work at my old secondary school as a TA and started to do my psychology degree with the Open University. That's how it started. Wow. I had the best foundation I could possibly have to come into this line of work now, because I worked in an inclusion unit with young people who got learning difficulties, lots of challenging things going on at home, some had parents in prison, lots and lots and lots of barriers facing them for their learning. They were constantly in flight mode before they'd even come into school. I thought it was a miracle that they even made it in. So my outlook from the start was very much, and that was as a newbie, someone completely new to the profession was, wow, they've got this going on at home and they still turn up for school. It's fantastic, because it was a safe haven for them. They had teachers and support staff that really cared about them. And then for their learning, this is the thing for me, at the time when I started learning in this area, I was learning so much about how a multi-century approach was important. Not really at the time, the psychology behind that I knew from doing my degree, but that wasn't really in the training, which was really interesting. Now I know as a therapist why we do the sensory things and that's happening to the emotional brain and calming the reptilian brain and all those things I know now from further training. But I saw just right back at the very, very start to engage the young people I worked with at that time, anything sensory we brought into the lessons, they thrived because it's accessible to them and it's working on the autonomic nervous system. It's those calming reassurance and those sensory areas. And then sometimes we'd have pupils come in that bizarrely it's the typical thing in inclusion units. They've been naughty in class, sent out of class to come to the inclusion unit because they're naughty. And I think why these pupils just turned up at the door to have someone, oh, Mrs. sent me out, okay. And they'd come in and they'd see what we were doing some of the activities and they'd join in. And we'd only have them for a little bit because they shouldn't have been sent to us in the first place, but to see them thrive on that and to see them, oh, we haven't done this so I've not looked at it like this and get to do the practical elements was really important for them. And then kind of to fast forward really in all my lines of work when I've worked with young people because I went on to work in housing and work with young homeless people and support them. And I've worked for the youth offending service as well. I think we forget that any young person, it doesn't matter, and this is adults as well. This is really, really relevant for adults. And I think we forget this somehow in society at the moment, I think we've lost it well, not lost, but maybe the importance has disappeared on looking after ourselves. What are those practical, natural, down-to-earth activities that we did as children that we love to do, all the fun that we had? And as we go into teenage and adult years, the emphasis is kind of, gotta leave school and get a job. You need to make money, you need to get a house. And it's all those practical things and we lose that. And it's no surprise when we look at mental health and how that's deteriorating people, the pressures on people every day. And in the Western society, it's very much we work, work, work. And downtime is kind of, there's that hidden, I suppose, how to describe it. It's almost frowned upon sometimes. If you're having a rest, feel guilty. Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I should be getting up and I should be doing some work. Oh, I've got a mountain of ironing to do. I should be doing that. And again, it's connecting with ourselves. It's telling ourselves that we're safe. We're okay. We respect ourselves and we need some downtime. And that's why I'd say, going back to your question, in terms of these activities for all pupils, it's relevant for all, it's relevant for everybody. And again, going a bit psychological now, but thinking about in terms of learning and how we learn, the cognitive brain, engage in the cognitive brain, we can't do that unless we feel safe. And we remember so much more as well in terms of psychology, if we can add sensory elements to it. And in terms of therapy, therapeutic story writing, therapeutic stories are so powerful, a powerful power of metaphor, enlighten up all those areas within the brain. And the effect that they have in therapy is very, very powerful. And that is exactly the same in schools with doing exams and tests in ways that we can memorise things. We remember them so much more if we can add colour, sound, all those different sensory elements to it to help retain that information. Rather than, like I said, beginning sitting in front of that PowerPoint presentation and expected to just sit and take a look. And I'm interested at the moment as well, thinking about how we support this current generation of children in the next stage of their schooling because they have faced different challenges than their predecessors. And whilst I think we need to be careful, don't we, not to assume that everyone's experienced some kind of massive trauma. Actually, we have collectively all experienced something that we would never expected to have experienced. And many of our youngsters have had things like losing that kind of sense of identity and purpose because their exams have suddenly been snatched away and that kind of thing. And I wondered what your thoughts were in terms of how can we as a kind of slightly more universal approach to support youngsters who perhaps aren't deeply concerning to us, but who've experienced some kind of challenging and different stuff? What does that look like? Absolutely, and this is what's so crucial. And the point you made there as well is absolutely spot on the fact that people might look at me as a therapist and say, yes, but not all children have experienced that. What about some people want to be in school, they want to learn and for them having that stability is what they need. I totally agree, I don't disagree with that at all. I think what we need to be aware of, exactly what you said is that what's been happening over the past four, five months is so out of the ordinary for everybody. And on a subconscious level, whether we're aware of it or not, it does trigger a fight-flight response because all those norms have disappeared. So we're taking in everything around as even the fact for children going to the shops, wearing masks, all those types of things, not being able to see their friends, some people thinking of some children that they've been in families where they've had to self-isolate and for longer than other periods for the children. So every young person really needs to feel, again, my priorities for them to feel safe within school. And how does that look in school? What can we do to make those young people feel safe? And I think it's really important as staff for them to reflect on themselves. How are they as adults? How are they feeling? Tapping with themselves. And we can, something as simple as just being listened to. And it sounds, I know it might sound really, really basic, but if you ask young people sometimes what they want or what went wrong, what went wrong in school, nobody listened to me. And you might speak to the adult in that situation and they'll say, we've given you time and time again, we have listened to you, we've done this, we've done that. But it's not the same. It's not the same as having that connection and that's what they want, that connection. And I think in some schools, they've been doing a lot of restorative justice approach over the past few years. So building up conversations with young people, those are cause. And I really think we can bring that into schools from September onwards. So it might be in the morning if people are gonna be in their bubbles. We can just start off a check-in with everybody. That's really a simple thing to do. Just go around the class and have a little check-in if people want to speak. If they don't want to speak, perhaps they can't, because they don't feel safe enough. Is there an activity they could do as a form, as a bubble? Something really simple, where they're not even focusing on the coronavirus or things like that, but they can do a little activity where they're allowed to do some mindfulness drawing for five or 10 minutes. I know some teachers that do that in forms now, it's absolutely brilliant. They, in the morning, while they're doing the register. And again, I'm talking teens and primary here. They'll have like the little mindfulness, like the little doodle sheets that you can get with patterns and different things. And they'll say to young people, you want to come and help yourself. You want to do that for five or 10 minutes. Something so simple as that, that people might think, oh, that's ridiculous. That's not gonna have any effect. It's like, trust me, it really, really will. It's just that moment to take that time out, to help again engage the brain, ground that young person and make them feel safe. Little things like that work for everybody. And also one thing I was thinking about as well, like in a lot of, I recommend to a lot of teachers, and it is slightly more difficult in secondary, but form tutors can do this. It's like have a little sensory bag, with little things as well, like sensory toys and things. What kind of things would be in a sensory bag? I've got one here. Oh, yeah, I'm pretty prepared. This is my little bag. I granted it's fully colourful and as a therapist, this is my look out. And this is a very, anyone listening, this is a very bright bag with all different coloured spots all over it. Yeah, my little spot bag. And again, I'm very aware, there would be some teachers that would look at this and go, oh, that had never worked with my teenagers. Oh my God, trust me, it will. Yes, you won't know what with, first of all, I might be thinking, oh, you know, they might say something, oh, what's that? I'm not a baby, blah, blah, blah. As soon as they see what's inside the bag, this changes everything. So I get some things out of the bag and describe. So for teenagers, I have like a Rubik's Cube. This is something actually I just freebie when I worked for the youth fending service and went to a conference and I got, this has had so much wear and it's so, like, so popular. And for some of the teenagers I work with, people would say that maybe more challenging, I think that's the word I'll use. Put one of these in their hands and you've lost them. It's like having a mobile phone, it switches off. And often, again, you'll get teachers say, oh, they're not listening to me, they're playing with that thing again. No, no, they're taking it on board. They might be not acknowledging you or not giving you eye contact, which a lot of adults seem to think it's so important to have eye contact. It's not, they're listening, they're taking things on board, it's fine. Just trust the process, very thorough thing. Yeah, things in there, sensory things in there. So we're thinking about, I have bubbles, again, associated primary school kids. I love bubbles. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? Focusing the breathing. Imagine you've got a class of teenagers, they love these things. Yes, it can cause a bit of disruption sometimes. So think about maybe when you want to be using this. Perhaps not in the middle of the class, I don't know, but get them to focus to blow the bubbles and balance it. You know, what the teenagers tend to do more so than primary. I noticed with this one, you can blow, it's got lots of different holes to blow, lots of bubbles at once. And they like to catch them. And again, they're calming the brain, they're focusing just on those things in that moment. And you can do it as a class activity, like popping them. I've got, is it this one? I've got like a prickly, spiky green, kind of plastic ball with light that lights up as well. A lot of my young people with anxiety like this and whether it be anxiety demonstrated where they're silent and don't say anything, or whether it be through anger and aggression. This, because I think it's a spike, you can really get some sensory activity from doing that. It's really important. I've got like a little teddy with a little heart. This is a little IKEA thing. I don't know if I should be promoting IKEA, but that's where that is from. Just yeah, and like this again, a little squidgy. This is like a centipede or something, a little squidgy centipede. And again, some people love this field, some people can't stand it. And that's the thing, every young person will be different. They don't have to have learning difficulties or special needs or anything like that. Even adults, when I love working with parents and they'll pick up a bag and have a look and they go, oh, I don't like that. I don't like the spirit. And we have a laugh and bring some fun and some joy to it. And just, I think every class should have that, have one of these. Yeah, it's back up really. And so I recommend that. Obviously in terms of COVID at the moment, there's a lot of things about disinfecting and how we're gonna get around that. And I do understand that. So that is something to take into account. But there's no reason why you couldn't have something like that in class with a few different things or each young person have something for themselves as well. Yeah, I was gonna say, I've worked with young people before and they've created like their own self-sooth kind of box or happy box and put the things in them for themselves. But they're brilliant. They're the best I think as well because you're really incorporating, again, you're sending a really powerful message to that young person. I trust you. I believe in what you're doing. I know that you've got the skills to support yourself. You can do this. And I think this is something really important as well that we send the message that every young person has got the ability, exactly what you're saying there. You know, the self-soothes, the empowerment to do what they want to do. And sometimes they have that knocked down to them or because they compare themselves to other students that might be very academic. They think because they're not academic that they're stupid or dumb. And that's one of the things that kind of riles me very much because that's where I think with the creative arts is so important. And sport, this is something I was thinking about before I came onto the podcast. There are so many subjects in school and I like technology, cooking, think all the baking and the dough and all the different things. And I think, well, I was gonna say something in really old-fashioned. They're like woodwork and things. I don't call them that cool, I say they. But all those subjects are so, so important in school. They're so important for young people, for their self-esteem and to show that they can do whatever they put their mind to. There's all, every young person has got their own niche, every young person. Yeah, and it's just showing them that we trust them. And a lot of those kinds of activities you were talking about there, which sadly feel like the ones that are getting squeezed out rather than expanded into at the moment. But those are kind of activities where essentially you're creating something, aren't they? Where you end up with a kind of tangible product. And how important is that? Is it good for kids to be making, creating, doing something with a tangible outcome? Or is the process more important or does it depend? I think all of that is so important. So the process is really important. I think sometimes we focus too much on the outcome. And this worries me in schools because everybody works at different paces and we're very outcome-focused in not just education but in work and government guidelines. Everything's very outcome-focused. The process is so, so important. Excuse me, to get that young person just to have a go at something that maybe they thought they couldn't do. And it doesn't matter, say they're making something it, like it's some kind of craft or something and they don't finish it. The focus shouldn't be that, oh dear, well like little Johnny's not finished it. He's not working hard enough. That's rubbish. They've got stuck into something that maybe they would never have done before if you hadn't supported them. And this is the beauty, I think, of working in education as well to support those young people. You've got a gift. Even if you've had the stuff knocked out of you as a teacher because of all the pressure, you really have a gift to support those young people and instill that they have the power to do whatever they want to do. They really, really do. You can make such a difference with just those kind, calming words, joking, whatever your banter is. It's every teacher's got their own unique skill. And yes, in terms of the process, if they get to the end of them, say I don't know, even in baking, cooking, whatever it is, if they finish the end and they make something, that's brilliant. But again, I think there's so much sometimes focus on the end. It's not looking perfect and a lot of young people, this is the thing now it's to them, it's got to look perfect. There's so much anxiety around that it's got to, it doesn't gotta throw it, get rid of it. And in therapy, I kind of walk people through that process that they do what they need to do. If they don't finish it, they don't finish it because that's where they need to be in that moment. And that's exactly the same in education. All children at different levels, they're at different stages in their process and for them to just be getting stuck in and having to go at something is really, really powerful, really, really meaningful. And we shouldn't dismiss that, I shouldn't dismiss it at all. It's quite a different set of skills as well, isn't it? That perhaps we don't always sort of tap into. I found that personally, when I was patient at the Maudsley a couple of years ago, while I was in recovery from eating disorder, then one of the most powerful things for me there was pottery. So I had regular pottery and at the beginning, I was really not up for this because I'd not done any art for years and years and years and I was terrified, to be quite honest. And I'd had the stuffing knocked out of me and it was really hard. But the lady who ran it, the occupational therapist, was A, just a really inspiring artist, but B, she just allowed you to create. And it was about the process. And actually I created some really fun stuff, but a really interesting thing that happened for me during the process was that when I first arrived, like the room was full of other people's pottery that they'd finished and never come to go. And I said, why would they not come and get it? And she said, oh, people aren't so worried about what they end up with. It's more about the doing. And I remember at the time thinking, well, I won't be like that because it will be about what I make. And hopefully I'll make something I'm proud of, perhaps. And that was very much what I thought. And actually in the end, I've left dozens of pieces behind that I never went back for because they didn't matter. It didn't matter at all. And what you said there is just so beautiful because that is exactly it. And that in life is, that's life, working through our process. That's exactly the same in life. It's not just a therapy thing. That's we learn things in life. We go back to things in later life. Things evolve, things change and absolutely. I mean, clay is such a powerful medium to use. And I see that so much what you said in with my young people. When I'm doing group workshops, if I'm working with young person I've only recently met, they're terrified sometimes to do anything and they will sit there for a while and won't do it. They won't touch it because they've been told they're rubbish or it's, oh, you're rubbish at that. What's that look like? And I try as much as possible to get the message across. You are not in an art lesson now. This is not about technique. This is about you and your process and you doing something for yourself. And once they learn to trust me and after a few times, some of the things that they create, wow, they're actually fantastic. And some of the art that some of my teenagers have produced and I said, do you do art in school? No, I wasn't allowed. And I said, why? I've got kicked out for messing about. I said, okay. And they're fantastic. And I kind of, well, I shouldn't really do this but try and plant the seed to say, listen, in later life, if you want to go back to art, go back to art because actually what you've created is something very, very beautiful. You might not realize it. And some of the stuff that comes out can be quite dark. And again, it's because it's felt. What's on the paper is that felt sense, like with the clay, what's happening with the clays connecting internally on an unconscious level. We're working through those processes. And that's so important. It's so important to just be able to do something correct. Doesn't matter what it looks like. And I think as well, I can teach in mode, it's very much you kind of train to support that young person through and show them pointers. So maybe you could just say in art, shade a bit more here or do a bit more there. My perspective, and I know I'm coming from a therapy perspective, but in terms of health and wellbeing, it's not about that. It's about just getting stuck in, having a go and working through your own process. Yeah, it's really powerful. And does it matter if what you create, whether it's finished or not, whether it makes sense to you? Sometimes you might look at something that, say, I created, and you might take something very different on board from it than I did. And as a therapist, I guess you might go, oh, there's more to explore here or, yeah. What's going on there? I love that because when you do your therapy training, you're always taught it's the, whoever you're working with, the client you're working with, it's part of their process. And I always say that you shouldn't be interpreting too much because it is that person's process. You can never 100% know what the person's feeling or thinking. And in therapy, yes, you can learn techniques and tools to kind of support that person, to kind of work through it and release what they need to release. But I'll see things in therapy and I'll look at it. And I think, it's kind of like that gut instinct, that connection, I kind of look at it and I think there's something more going on here. I get used to seeing shapes and different things that kind of different shapes, different colors, how things are proportioned, where they've put different things like that. And as a therapist, you'll pick up on that, but you wouldn't, you shouldn't really be pointing them out. It should be for that person to work through their process. And what I would strongly say in terms if we're thinking about education and supporting people and doing creative things, you don't need to say at the end of it, oh, look, you've done that there. Oh, look, that's there. You know, leave it. If the young person wants to talk to you about it, that's brilliant, that's great, that's fine, but it doesn't need to be done. It's okay. Yeah, it's really important to follow the lead of the young person, follow the lead of the client. What do they want? What's that connection? And trust in your gut instinct. What's your gut instinct? I've been in schools where I've worked with the young person in therapy and the young persons want to show the teacher what they've done. And what I will always say to them is, if you want to do that, that's fine. And I'll support you in doing that. We'll go and see Mrs. So-and-so or Mr. So-and-so. Just bear in mind, they might not understand what we've been doing. So they might pass comment on what you've done. And that does happen. And it's just, oh, I went, I remember going to see an assistant head once with the young person, what they created. And what they created was in relation to a film that they'd seen. And this film was very powerful to them. And the assistant head didn't need to know why it was powerful or what meaning it had. But this young person's so proud of what they'd made because there'd be no judgment in that therapy that they wanted to go and take and show. And I had my fingers crossed thinking, please, please, please do not point out what's gone wrong or what doesn't, you know, in your opinion. And luckily he was very good. And kind of praised the young person. And yeah, just kind of praised him. Congratulated him for what he'd done. And didn't, you know, say anything too. But sometimes you'll go and see teachers and they're like, oh, that's great. But you know, you could have done a bit of extra there. And I'm thinking, no, please don't say that. Please don't say that. I wouldn't say that in therapy, you know, I wouldn't do that at all. It's about the young person recognising those feelings, their own process, being proud of their achievements and not needing, you know, to get through life. We all like a bit of recognition. But to be able to trust yourself and your own achievements and be proud of what you've done yourself, that's the most important thing. And it's a privilege to be there to support them. And how do we marry that up with enabling a child to feel kind of genuinely heard? Because you talked about how many young people felt that they didn't get listened to. And I feel that there's something about the way, perhaps when someone has created something or been involved in something that where they've gone on a bit of a journey, I guess, that the way we respond there would very much either make them feel heard or not, depending on kind of how we respond. Yes. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think all too often, I think in terms of, again, not necessarily education could be different things, but there's always that power dynamic between the adult and the young person very much so. And I think sometimes in education, there's perhaps a bit of fear from, you know, the adult in that situation that we must be too friendly. We must be too familiar. We mustn't be, you know, we've got to keep our barriers. And that's very, very true. You know, barriers are really important. They let the young people know where they are and they're safe. But also they don't want to see a robot. They want to see a human being. So that's something really important to keep on board. And when you're connecting with those young people, you can be human. You can be human. You can have that, you can have that banter and that connection with them. And it's about really tuning into that young person. What are they doing? What are they trying to say to you? You know, that young person that might stay behind in class, be the last person to pack away in class every lesson. What are they doing there? What's going on there? And in that mindset, you might think, oh, God, I've got to get to my next lesson or I've got to quickly go and get a cup of coffee before I'm teaching next. Because, you know, I'm gasping for a drink and things like that. But it's little things like that that sometimes I think we miss out on because we've got so much going on in our own worlds that it's noticing those key things that the young people are trying to communicate to us. Sometimes things that they get told off for, you know, like a young person I had once used to get told off for how slow he was taking his pencil case out of his bag and doing things. And there were some learning difficulties around that. However, for him, it was more about that connection for someone to notice him. That's what it was more about. To notice, this is me, this is what I'm doing, this is a connection. So for some of the teachers, it was, oh, gosh, every lesson he takes ages to get his pencil case out. We can't start the lesson until, you know, so and so has done this. And I used to say, maybe, you know, if you had a chat with him or all of you spoke to him about it, well, no, he's just being blah, blah, blah. You know, it was the usual thing, kind of derogatory thing. And I think, you know, I kind of reflect on that and say to them, just reflect on what that young person's doing, how they're trying to connect with you. That's what it is. It's a connection. They're trying to connect with you. They're not deliberately trying to be, you know, naughty in class and kicking up a fuss. They might be really anxious about that lesson. And that's what they're trying to communicate. I'm really scared. I'm sat in this lesson. I'm really anxious. If I'm as slow as possible, then the lesson won't start for ages. I don't have to do as much work. And this is the thing. So it's little things like that that would de-escalate a situation that we tune into and kind of flip things to listen to that young person in a different way. Listening's not just about, you know, that verbal communication. It's very much about noticing the body language, noticing the behavior patterns, noticing what's going on with their work, what are they struggling with with their work? Are there topics that they can't engage in? Why can't they engage in those topics? What's happening for that young person? All these little things are like little markers, really. I think we should be looking out for to allow those young people to feel, listen, listen to and heard, really. So being more curious always seems to come up at the moment is, you know, being curious. And honestly, the response you get from that young person just from being curious, yeah, just from being curious, people sometimes I think they feel a bit concerned that they're overstepping the mark or they don't want to pry, or sometimes you get, that's not my job. That's the job for the social worker. I'm a teacher. Yeah, you're a teacher. And those young people are looking up to you. You're a role model for them. They're learning to mirror behaviors with other people. Your behavior is absolutely crucial. And how you connect with them as an adult is important how they'll reflect their behaviors in society and connect with other adults. It's really important role models for young people. One of the things I'm expecting to get asked about a lot in the autumn term is people working in schools who aren't trained like yourself but who will be running either individual or small group interventions for young people who perhaps have been bereaved or have faced other sort of specific sort of challenges during this time and are finding it harder to settle. And whilst lots of the ideas that we've talked about so far, I think this is universal and all of our young people will thrive from that. Do you have any advice or ideas or maybe some suggestions of activities and things that might work well for particular kind of small group intervention? Definitely. Things that the focus isn't directly on what's going on at the moment. So they can talk through, well, not talk, I shouldn't say talk, communicate through other means. So things like puppetry, puppet work is great. I do an exercise with my teenagers that's very, very telling the stuff that comes through that is brilliant. And again, what I would just urge on the side of caution is for those, you know, elsters and TAs that might be doing this work pastoral staff not to worry too much on what might come out with that because often it's that alter ego that's coming out in puppetry or clay or different things. And so just to give an example, talking about puppets, you know, I do an exercise in therapy but this is something that can be, doesn't have to be therapy. You know, what I would do, the skills I would use is slightly different to what I would show a model in group work for TAs and things. Getting young people to create puppets, talking to those puppets, you know? It can be out, I do paper bag puppets basically. So I get paper bags, brand paper bags. And this is something that we were taught as part of our therapy process. And we had certain skills added to that but it doesn't have to be like that, you know? Things like making spoon puppets, stick puppets, anything, getting loads of creative art materials around and saving people. Right, tell you what today. We're gonna, let's create, I know a lot of people do superheroes and look at superheroes and what powers would they have and things. But often I'll just say, I want you to create a puppet, can be anything, don't overthink it, just create someone, give them a name, have a think about where they live, what they do. And then we're gonna get together as a group and we're gonna talk through our puppets. And when you do that with teenagers and believe me, some of the teenagers I work with, they're in gangs. I don't want people thinking, oh, I never get my teenager to do that, trust me. When you get them together, if they feel safe and they feel listened to, they will do this exercise because they bounce off each other. And again, it's like those mirror neurons reflecting and copying the pages. And the communication that will come out then is brilliant because for some young people that have difficulties communicating verbally, it's amazing that when they've got a puppet or they've got something for them, the communication that can come through that is something else. So an exercise, I did this exercise with two young people specifically once who've been excluded from education. And the conversation that came out of that exercise from them going, okay, if we have to kind of thing was beautiful, like, you know, well, some people might think it's beautiful, but they reflected on the education system and how it's impacted on them and how one young person felt he'd been kind of spat out, come out the other side. And he wouldn't have been able to have that conversation if he hadn't felt safe and had the medium to be able to do that and communicate that. It's the same in mask work. You can ask people to make masks and talk through those masks. If you want to, you know, if you've got small groups, this works great with small groups as well, and to take it in turns to listen to each other, show listening skills as well, turn taking. It's really powerful to have those kind of exercises, practical exercises that you can do as a group, paint into music, you know, if you've got half an hour, three quarters of an hour, put some music on, or having a selection of different tracks, it could be something that, you know, the young people like listening to, it could be sad music, it could be happy, anything. And ask them to kind of paint different whatever you play and whatever your communicator's like. Right, we're going to play 10 minutes for this and I want you to draw using crayons for this. Right, I'm going to do 10 minutes for this and I want you to use the paints for this. And things like that, but again, talking about the process, they're using that process, they're communicating on the paper. And for those staff that are supporting them, the most powerful thing they can do is to hold space for them, be there. They don't have to be therapists at all. Making someone feel safe and connected is one of the most powerful things you can do. And to allow those young people the freedom to do that without getting marked and what it looks like without getting criticized and what these things look like to be listened to without being told, oh, you shouldn't be saying that. No, we don't, you know, we don't use language like that at all. Well, that's a bit rude, I don't think we should be saying that. To just allow them to be there for that time there within those groups is really, really powerful. So for those staff, I have to say, like a big shout out, they do an incredible job. And I think in a lot of schools now, sadly, there's a lot of pressure on them and they're not therapists. And it's, their self-care is really, really important. And I want to stress that to schools, you know, in the senior leadership teams to think about your TAs, think about your else's, think about those pastoral staff, what they have to hear on a daily basis. They need that support. They need time out themselves. They need to have that restorative approach where you can have team meetings there, have supervision if needs be. And when I talk about supervision, you know, obviously in therapy we have clinical supervision. In a school that might be peer supervision. So it might be another professional, another TA having, you know, 20 minutes, half an hour to just have a cup of coffee with someone else and have that time out. It's really, really powerful to support their self-care, their emotional wellbeing. And then to be able to go back into that room and support those young people. And I, you know, I think sometimes there's so much pressure, we haven't got enough time into the day to do that. You'll get much more out of your ass if you show them that respect, that you respect what they're doing, then you give them that time to do that. There are allowances that can be made. Yes, it's difficult in the time constraints we have at the moment, but it's essential. Our staff are going to burn out and they're not going to be there to be able to support the young people. How would you, if you were working with a school and they've got, you know, some staff who fulfill that kind of role, how would you be prioritising their time in the autumn? Because there isn't enough hours in the day and there will be lots of young people needing help. Who should we be working with most? Absolutely. Well, that's a crucial question, really important question, because my fear is sometimes that the children that are in class that are behaving really well, that are quiet, that academically they seem to be doing really well or get left behind as well. And very much in our school system at the moment, we do, well, it works both ways actually, because I've worked with young people that their behaviour is so bad, they get forgotten as well, because it's just seen as bad behaviour. It's not seen that actually this is a very vulnerable child, very hurting child that is reacting this way. Prioritising time, it's going to be hard, but this is where I truly, truly believe and I know some people might think, you know, it's a pipe dream, it can't be done. This is where we should be using the bubbles to our advantage when the children are going back and they're gonna be in these bubbles. This is where we need to be allocating time out, even if it's for half an hour, like even if it was half an hour once a week, I know of a school up in the Northeast that every Monday morning, they start school later. I think the pupils come in at 9.30 instead of 9. And they have bubbles of staff that would get together and they have a restorative approach where they all check in to see how they feel with it, you know, feel what's working for them, what isn't, and they do that every single Monday. And it works for them, you know, they can do that. And that's a big school. They've got a lot of pupils, and that supports their young people in turn because their staff are feeling better and supported. And so in the bubbles, thinking about the bubbles, how do we prioritize our young people? We should be thinking that every young person is a priority. I really do think that and that we should be treating people, acknowledging that every young person may need help, they may need support, and to be open and accessible for them. And then when we've got young people that, you know, they might need extra support, they might have a tragedy in their life, you know, specific learning difficulties, and some of the most vulnerable young children, I would then look at having like group sessions for those young people, if you can, even if it's once a week, having a lunchtime club. You know, there's a lot of schools doing lunchtime clubs. And again, it's using those bubbles to advantage, I would say, if you're going to have young people in the same class all day, or in the same room all day, or they move around to not very many rooms, they're going to be going out of their mind as are the teachers, climbing the walls. So we're going to be needing activities in those classrooms for time out. And this is where I would really recommend things like having board games in there, children to have time out at lunchtime, break time, have practical things in there, pens, paper, if people want to doodle, have things like, you know, the mindfulness, coloring books, things like that, allowing people to have time out if they want to listen to music. If that's a possibility, can they do that? Is it possible to have, you know, something like drums, musical instruments, anything like that? People can be as creative as they want or make it as simple as possible. I think let's not underestimate what resources we have, what we're able to use. It doesn't have to be big, extravagant things with lots of money that schools haven't got the money to do that. That's not realistic. We have to use what resources we've got at the moment. Yeah, and, you know, if it's possible for the after school clubs as well, things like, I don't know if schools will be doing that in September. I'm hearing differently in some different schools at the moment, what time school is going to be finishing. But again, can we do something there where people want to stay behind and have that extra support? Can they go and see someone to talk to? Is there someone they can check in with at break time, lunchtime, those types of things? And I'm not sure if that's answered the question. It is quite a big thing to answer, but... No, that's it. It's huge, and I'm not sure that there is a kind of one-size-fits-all solution, but it sounds like from what you're saying that you're thinking that we need to be thinking about every child and make sure no one gets left behind. Yeah, absolutely. I think I hear quite a lot that, you know, you'll get a young person and say, oh, they've been absolutely fine. You're seven, you're eight, you're nine. Didn't hear a pee-pee to them. And then you're 10, they've exploded and the hormones have kicked in. But actually, when I see them in therapy, and you and Pick What's Happening, actually, there was a hell of a lot happening for that young person way before it just wasn't spotted because they're behaving so well. Because sometimes through fear, they're sat there in fear because they don't feel safe. And it gets to a point that they can't hold that in anymore. And as they get older, then it doesn't explode. It's one of the things I teach people often is that sometimes when we create a safer environment for our young people, we see their behavior apparently worsen before things improve and that we shouldn't be disheartened by that. But I always know that when I'm teaching that, there might be 90% of the room who's coming with me in 10% going, well, I'm not doing that then. Absolutely, I totally, totally agree, exactly. It's, you get sometimes, it's so funny because in therapy, when someone's referred to therapy, it's kind of people think, oh, it's the magic wand. They forget the process. Like any adult going through life, it's a process. And let's, yeah, when we're thinking about the brain, we know more about the brain than we did before in neuroscience and looking at thinking and when people get into their 20s, the brain isn't kind of settling down and having those things fixed until then. So you'll get people referred to therapy and they'll say, oh, well, I thought his behavior would be getting better, not worse. And I'm saying, well, this young person, just remember for the first time in their life they're having someone that might be listening to them or allowing them to be who they need to be and you're releasing that process. So yes, unfortunately, sometimes you'll see things in school. And yeah, yeah, absolutely right. I think it is teaching staff as well. I think, oh, we've been doing this and this has been happening and always been a bit more cheeky or it's a bit more confident. I'm saying he all the time, that's, you know, it works both ways, he, she, but. And I said, yeah, because they're finding their feet they're finding their voice and just ride with it, just go with it. Your reaction is so crucial. How you react to that person when they react like that to you will be the difference to how whether it escalates or de-escalates. And this is really important to remember. Yeah, yeah, absolutely right. You'll get the majority of stuff that might be, yeah, we can do that. Yeah, let's do that. And you might get that small minority. No, no, no, that's, you know, and that's understandable. And sometimes that's about their own process where they are in life and what's going on for them right now and that they can't cope with that and they might be under too much pressure. So there's a lot of compassion out there for teaching stuff at the moment. And I know very easy for them. Oh, it's easy for me to say you're the therapist coming into school. We're the ones that are with them like 24 seven doing this. And yeah, that's very true. That's very, very true. But also, you know, I also get to hear things that perhaps that no one else has ever heard before and those safeguarding things and stuff like that. And we work as a team. It's really important as this minority agency approach we are all really significant in that young person's life. We all have an impact on that young person's life. Doesn't matter who you are, you're really, really important. Every role is really, really important. And it can be the make or break of a young person how they're treated. It really can be. How do you know in your work when you've succeeded? Oh, that's really tough. I don't kind of look at it like that. I don't think. Because now I don't think I look at it like that. I think I really truly believe that, well, it depends. It depends whether you've got a long-term client or a short-term client, I suppose, and what their needs are. For me, if someone comes to therapy and they're able to engage in so many weeks of therapy, that's a success in itself. It's a success for some young people, excuse me, some young people to get through the door for the first time. That's terrifying as an adult. I think we forget that as adults sometimes, you know, when we refer young people to therapy or to a counsellor, or you're expecting a young person to sit in a room with someone they've never met, and especially in counselling, we think about counselling and, you know, we'll refer them for counselling. That's what they need, they need to counsell in. And I think, well, have you asked that young person what they actually want? Do they feel comfortable doing that? And they might go and sit in that room and not feel very comfortable with that adult. That adult might trigger things for them. You know, they might remind them of people in their life that have done harm to them. And I think it's really important to have that connection to be able to try and have that conversation with a young person if possible. Do they want actually referring for therapy? Do they want that? And in terms of successes, it's often seen as a failure if they don't engage in therapy or engage in counselling or whatever. I think the beauty of therapy is they don't, children and young people and adults, they don't have to talk if they don't want to, because the whole therapy is working on a somatic process, exactly how you discussed about the clay. It's releasing those emotions through those mediums, through those artistic mediums, through movement, through dance, through all those rhythmic things, those rhythmic patterns that have an impact on the emotions and soothing and calming the brain. It's really, really important. So we don't often get to see what would be classed as kind of a success, so to speak, because you might plant the seed for a young person who's 12 or 13, and they're not ready to engage in the process until they get into adulthood, but they'll look back, and I say this to teachers and TAs all the time, you might think you've been unsuccessful with the young person, because they failed their exam, they failed their test, they won't turn up for the class anymore. It's not that at all. They're not there in their process. This is life, life's so much bigger than that. It might be, though, they'll get to 26 and look back and remember you, remember you as that person that trusted them and believed in them, and then they want to get help, and then they want to get support. So a success for me is something, honestly, is something as simple as walking through that door. It's hard to measure success. I think, again, with outcomes, you'll know yourself, so many things in psychology and therapy, and we have outcome measures, and we have to do questionnaires and have these schools gone down, have they gone up? What does this measure? But ultimately, the measure is in that young person and do they feel safe? That would probably be the most realistic, I think, measure of success. Does that young person feel safe enough to engage with you? Do they feel safe? Yes, as a success, you supported them and you made them feel safe. You might be the first person that's made them feel safe in their life, and they don't have to have had any significant trauma for that either. I'm just talking about young people going to school, getting anxious, getting nervous about things. To learn they need to feel safe, that's the priority, and have that connection with somebody. That's the number one thing we can all be thinking about really as we return in the autumn as well, is how do we create that feeling of safety? It's something I find myself coming back to a lot at the moment as well. Definitely. I hear from teachers that when we went into lockdown, teachers feel like they're letting young people down because they didn't know how to answer their questions, because no one knew what was going to happen at the start of lockdown. I was going to school weeks before, and they couldn't answer questions. They were concerned that if they told young people things, they might be reprimanded by senior staff, different things like that. My advice at the time was, be as honest as you can. We don't know. We don't know the answers. We haven't got the answers. All we know at the moment is, at the time we've been taught, wash your hands, try and look after yourselves, and think about your emotional well-being. All these little messages were being sent out there, but I just try to be as honest as possible and say to my clients at the moment, you don't know what's going to happen. I carry my hand around with me. I wash my hands where appropriate, and don't stop having those conversations with people. Don't stop connecting with people. Those are going to be, those relationships are what's going to get you through. So for all those staff going back in September, thinking, oh, I can't do this. I'm not creative. I can't do that. Honestly, a smile speaks volumes to a young person. You're sending a message, you feel safe. And if you're not feeling safe yourself, it's okay to, don't feel that you can't say to a young person, oh well, I'm feeling about how to sort myself today, but we've got to get through it. We can do this together. It's okay to do that. People see, you know, young people see through the masks. They see through the false, you know, exterior sometimes. And we all, you know, every one of us puts on a mask. And I put on a mask if I'm not feeling great, you know, I think I leave the house and like, come on, we can do this today. But there have been times I've had to say to young people, please bear with me. I'm just having a bit of a tough day. I am here for you. Well, you know, we're going to get through it. And then things have worked out. It's been great. I just thought, it's not light to me. Yes. It's honesty. I think there's quite a lot to be said for being a little more authentic. And obviously we have to tread that line really carefully when we're working with young people and they need to know that they are safe. And sometimes them feeling safe looks like us, you know, holding it together, doesn't it? But, yeah. What thought would you like to leave people with? What would you like to close with? I would just like to say, trust in your own ability. Every single one of you, even if we're all uncertain about what we're coming back to in September, what things are going to look like. And it's going to be continual change. And we're going to somehow have to roll with that change. But self-care priority and just build those connections. If the one thing you can do with the young person is make them feel safe through just that connection and just being there to support them. Honestly, that will mean the will to that young person. Plant that seed, that's what I'd like to say. Plant that seed for that young person. And just because you don't see the outcome in the here and now doesn't mean you failed. Just trust the process that things will work out and be how they're meant to be.