 The final item of business today is the member's business debate on motion number 15202, in the name of Alec Rowley, on RMT strike over Caledonian sleeper concerns. Mr Bail will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would be grateful if those members who wish to speak in the debate could press the request to speak buttons now, please. I call on Alec Rowley to open the debate. Seven minutes, please, Mr Rowley. Thank you, Presiding Officer. When I read that the RMT members working on the Caledonian sleeper were going to go and strike, I was interested to see what the problem was. Someone who worked and lived in London and used the sleeper fairly regularly, I'm very aware of the importance of the sleeper service for Scotland, for people in Scotland accessing to and fro London and, indeed, for the Scottish economy. So it was we interested that I wanted to find out what exactly was going on. To the credit of the workers on the sleeper, they clearly were raising issues that I have to say I was quite astonished by. I was astounded. This major means of transport and vital artery of Scottish infrastructure had been left to operate with numerous defects which have failed to be addressed by the new operator Serco. Looking into this further, I found that working conditions for RMT workers, for the workers on the Caledonian sleeper, they were of serious concern. The health and welfare of workers should be the utmost priority of every employer, and there is never a justifiable excuse for letting these concerns take a backseat. RMT have identified more than 200 faults with rolling stock operated by Serco. This includes smoke detectors being disconnected, toilets being inoperable, lighting and heating systems not working, lack of hot water in some coaches, air conditioning problems throughout the summer and a multitude of other serious defects in these carriages. The result of that is difficult working conditions and a failure to provide acceptable levels of public services for passengers from the rail operator. The total Scottish Government expenditure on tender on the sleeper and ScotRail contracts was over £13.5 million, money that could have been reinvested into passenger fares and services. I echo the sentiments of the RMT general secretary, Mick Cash, when he says and I quote, that this is yet another example of Serco when in public service contracts and failing to deliver for the taxpayer passengers and staff. If the Scottish Government is committed to this process, then serious consideration must be given to address the issues arising from it. It would be extremely useful for the Scottish Government to commit to raising the RMT's safety concerns at its next franchise performance meeting with Serco, Caledonia Sleeper, later this month. In the spirit of being helpful, is Mr Rowley aware that through ACAS there has been quite constructive talks just yesterday between the RMT and Serco that I think have progressed a number of matters that I'm sure will feature Mr Rowley's contribution? I'm certainly aware that discussions were due to take place again yesterday with ACAS. I certainly hope that we can reach a point where a further strike would be avoided, because all credit, as I said at the start to the workers on these services, they are losing money by taking strike action in order to highlight what should be a concern for the public right across Scotland. It should be a major concern for the Government. It is important that those talks continue. I welcome and I have not been made aware of the latest talks, but I welcome if those talks are making progress. That is why it is important to have this discussion in this debate, so the company knows that this Parliament is concerned about the problems that are arising. It is important to raise the concerns that RMT has repeatedly expressed over the inclusion of an indemnity clause in real franchising agreements, claiming that they merely serve to undermine industrial relations. The Scottish Government should be committed to addressing the concerns of a recognised trade union and the negative impacts that the terms of a public franchise agreement are having on its members. The means by which the franchise agreement currently operates does not incite meaningful negotiations when matters of dispute arise. If the Scottish Government insists on awarding public contracts to private train operating companies, more must be done to alleviate the tensions that are being caused by poor terms and conditions that allow operators to benefit through not engaging fully in the industrial relations process. At this stage, I feel that it is absolutely necessary for the Scottish Government to meet with RMT officials in order to fully examine the serious concerns that they have and to work together to find a way forward. Even with the progress that has been made, I think that that meeting with RMT representatives of the workers on the Caledonian sleeper would be important. A crucial public service in the form of the Caledonian sleeper is suffering through poor operation. The Scottish Government should feel obliged to do all that it can to find resolution to those issues and work with the RMT in Serco in order to alleviate industrial relations problems. The sleeper is a historic asset to the UK, operating since the 1870s to connect London and Scotland. It is shameful to read the faults and the inefficiencies being experienced today in such a service. We should be proud of our history of rail invention and development. It is in the UK that the first ever railway journey took place. Our design and technological advancements were exported all over the world. The steam engine invented in Scotland. The steam locomotive invented in England. We have a shared history of globally recognised success in the field of rail transportation. The Caledonian sleeper embodies that shared connection, a join-in rail between London and Scotland. It is important that we take seriously the concerns that have been raised. It is important that, as parliamentarians and in this Parliament, we say that we want to see the very best service. I am aware that there is investment that is planned to take place over the next 18 months to two years. What is absolutely clear is that the current state in which these carriages are running is not acceptable and we cannot wait 18 months to two years. Neither in terms of the condition of the workers nor, indeed, the service that has been offered. Hopefully, we will hear from the minister the day that he also takes these matters seriously and that we are going to actually get action to address them. We now turn to the open debate speeches of around four minutes or so. I call on Chick Brody to be followed by John Finnie. I welcome the debate that was brought by Alex Rowley tonight. Let me stand up front by my overarching interest. I am not just our customers but, of course, the employees, the company and, importantly, our reputation for national efficiency and service and transport. If you would indulge me, Presiding Officer, allow me to look at the history of where we have been, where we are and, as important, the future of where we are going. There was no doubt, Presiding Officer, that the sleeper service had to be upgraded. The cross-party infrastructure committee is far back as its sixth report in October 2012 emphasised the renewal of the passenger rail franchise was essential. The sleeper service, of course, was a part of that and we welcomed the commitment of both the UK and the Scottish Governments to upgrade the sleeper service. In 2012, the Scottish Government announced that the service would be franchised, as we know, to run for 15 years from mid-2015. Importantly, it was stated that a total of £100 million would be invested in new and additional rolling stock, and part of the franchise was that the franchisee would commit to replacing the Mark II and Mark III rolling stock by 2018. That, of course, will, as we know, take time. However, we cannot again say that it was absolutely right of the staff to highlight concerns of guests facing defects, whether they were 200 defects or 160 defects, but those two events that I have just mentioned, the replacement of the rolling stock and the current situation coincide to suggest that there was a lack of investment. New capital investment and regular maintenance should have been a feature earlier on, hence the need for an upgrade. I believe that, while those defects have been raised, there was no infringement of health and safety rules. Of course, due diligence of the condition of the vehicles was required and, indeed, improvement in the condition of the invitation to tender. That said, the question is what was the response to the problems by the company. In my many years of management, I had always tried to be responsive to employee issues favourably raised rather than to endure action that ultimately affects and affected the employees, the company and its customers. Rather that both the employee presenters and the company sit down or sat down either separately or, as we heard, sat down with ACAS yesterday, which I believe, I hope, has achieved a solution or at least a process of going forward. Not just to itemise the issues but to agree a programme of resolution. My understanding is that this has happened or is happening and certainly will happen. I have no doubt that, due to employee involvement and, I hope, to management openness, the releasing of carriages for reliability improvement work, the additional 12 ASTOM employees and posts to support fleet maintenance, deployment of fitters to cover train departures at T stations, additional focus on the Mark 2 lounge cars, the oldest vehicles indeed in the fleet. I am also advised that replacement higher-end vehicles for the Mark 2 lounge cars, the oldest vehicles in the fleet, has been covered to ensure resilience. On that basis, I am sure that until new vehicles are in place, and I am sure that we all wish that that could be tomorrow, by working the issues together, resolving them, focusing on addressing the issues such as air conditioning, fire alarms and so on. We can build on the PPM and right-time marginal-improved performance, because there has been an improvement in performance in period 8 in 2015 on a year-on-year basis comparison. We can induce greater sleeper performance in the interests of increased passenger traffic, as Alex Rowley indicated, he wished to see happen also. I congratulate Alex Rowley on bringing this important motion here tonight. Can I make two declarations? Can I declare my membership to the RMT parliamentary group? I am very privileged to be part of that. Can I declare that my office is based in the iconically named Highland Railhouse, and our immediate neighbour's bar 1 is the Caledonian Sleeper? Indeed, I, with relative frequency, meet Mr Peter Strach in the managing director, and I'm very happy to go on the record of saying that he's a very straight-talking and engaging guy who's certainly resolved a couple of issues that I've taken to him. I know it was a conscious decision to base in the Highlands in absolutely commended procurement policy. Excuse me, Peter tells me he's a railwoman, and that's through and through. He worked for formerly for British Rail. I see on the internet he says that he's leading the circuit team responsible for transforming the sleeper service into an outstanding hospitality service that is emblematic of the best of Scotland. What the managing director knows is that the transformation that I want is for the entire rail network to be viewed as a public asset serving the public. I understand that that's what the majority of the public want, too. We know that in relation to the east coast service, for instance, which will twice under private franchise, it was a success when run by the state. You and I might have seen that as a model to be rolled out across the various franchises. Of course, Mr Cameron saw that as an opportunity to make further profit for his friends. There are break clauses in all those contracts, and I hope that at some point they're utilised. In the meantime, I want the service to be a success. Like many, I have no regard for the work and practices, but I certainly want the service to be a success. That's going to be a challenge because of the rolling stock. I'm grateful for our empty, as I'm sure other members are for the briefing. The briefing highlights the extent of public money that is connected with private rail. Due to railworks that are taking place in my native lahabar in the very near future, the sleeper is going to be going to open. That's not just an opportunity to provide a service to the west island, it's an opportunity to perhaps have a different service apply. It's an opportunity for our Gail and Niles. As many have said, it's an iconic journey. I'm trying to envisage this iconic journey, this emblematic of the best of Scotland, if, for instance, I can't go to the toilet. If the air quality is poor and air quality is a very important issue, if there are staff going about carrying boiling water and what assistance has been done of that, if there's a pungent smell from the toilets, the catalogue of faults should be something that is addressed in a matter of urgency. Certainly, Cerco has been commended for engaging in talks some months ago, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'm delighted that ACAS are involved there. Those seem to be fundamental things. I wouldn't have thought that anyone would take issue with the resolution of those matters. They seem to be absolutely fundamental to any public service, let alone one that we're putting as emblematic. The issue of indemnity and the suggestion that this encourages the train operating companies not to engage meaningfully, I think that there is some substance to that. Again, people may very well be concerned at the role that that plays in industrial relations. What I want to do is commend the role of the RMT. I think that health and safety, the safety of workers at the work, the safety of the public who are served, absolutely should be front and centre of everything that we do. I hope that Cerco will take the opportunity to recognise the importance of health and safety in train operations. I hope that it will engage meaningfully in talks. I hope that the Scottish Government will play their part in that, because there is public money connected with that, and I'm sure that the minister wouldn't want that to not be properly dispersed. I hope that the matters are fully addressed. It's important to say that these concerns have been legitimately addressed and raised, and they should be legitimately addressed. Thank you very much. Many thanks. I now call on Alec Johnston to be followed by Malcolm Chisholm. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I may begin by thanking Alex Rowley for bringing this matter before Parliament this evening. The Caledonian sleeper service is seen perhaps by some who think they live in the jet age as a relic of a bygone time. The fact is that many people rely on it, especially in the north of Scotland, to give them a service that can take them to London overnight and bring them home in the same way. For that reason, this service, regardless of how traditional it may be in its appearance, is vital in the peripheral areas of Scotland. It's important therefore that we recognise that this service must be preserved, and that should be one of our priorities. To this end, the UK Government preemptively offered £50 million for the refurbishment of the service with the condition that the Scottish Government would match that funding. As a result, there's £100 million waiting to be spent on the refurbishment of these trains and the replacement of some rolling stock. That's money that we need to get spent as quickly as possible. The schedule does allow us to do that in reasonable time, but it is important that the quality of the service is increased. The nature of the service is such that it is important to many, but the problems that have been outlined by Alec Rowley in his motion and during his speech this evening tell us that the service is not operating as it should. For that reason, we should all be concerned. However, what does concern me is that this has resulted in industrial action because I believe that that indicates somewhere in this process a failure of process. I believe that the franchise agreement puts it very squarely in the responsibility of the Scottish Government to ensure that enforcement is taking place and that the standards that were discussed when the franchise agreement was eventually agreed are held to. If those standards are not being maintained, then it is the Scottish Government's responsibility, in my view, to properly police that agreement. If we are at the stage where that has been exhausted, then industrial action can be understood if perhaps not justified from my standpoint. We have heard earlier, in an intervention from the Minister, that discussions have taken place and that some progress has already been made. I look forward perhaps in the Minister's closing speech to hearing more about that, but I still believe that it is the Government's job, not the trade union's job, to ensure that enforcement takes place. The other thing that worries me about strike action is the effect that it may have on the service. This service will always be marginal. That is why so much Government support goes into ensuring that it continues. Over the years, quite often, rumours have circulated that the service will be terminated and that has never happened because Government understands the significance and importance of that service. The problems that we have heard about tonight will inevitably discourage passengers from using the service, but I would suggest that strike action, perhaps unnecessary strike action, will inevitably discourage passengers from using the service. John Finnie? I am grateful for the member for mentioning the problems. Would the member agree that it is a failed year to resolve fundamental issues such as toilets not working air conditioning that will dissuade people rather than discussion about the resolution of those problems? Indeed, but I believe that the Government should have the whip hand in ensuring that that work is done and done quickly. Surely, it is within the terms of the franchise agreement. Perhaps the minister will tell us that financial penalties can be imposed on the franchise for failure to maintain those standards. To complete the remark that I was in the process of making when I took the intervention, I am concerned that, given those problems and the effect that this might have on the willingness of people to use the service, that strike action, delays or removal of services on certain days may simply have a similar on-going effect. I want this service to survive. I want it to be of high quality and I do not want passengers to find themselves standing on the platform without a train for any reason. That is why I want this resolved, but I do not think that strike action is the way ahead. Thank you, Malcolm Chisholm. I would like to congratulate Alex Kerr for introducing this debate, shining a spotlight on the gross failures of Serco and giving us an opportunity to express solidarity with the employees and, indeed, the travelling public since some of the defects on board are potentially dangerous to them as well as to the staff. As we have heard, the franchise was awarded in 2014 with a commitment to replace rolling stock by 2018, but with two years to go until this deadline is met, we have seen relations deteriorate and conditions for employees and, indeed, customers get worse. In response to media questioning on December 22, the day of the strike action, Peter Strachan, managing director of Caledonian Sleeper said, I quote, "...both Serco and, more importantly, over 1,000 of our paying passengers are being hugely inconvenienced by this wholly unnecessary action by the RMT in the run-up to Christmas." I would advance the suggestion that perhaps a greater inconvenience to the paying passenger would be to travel in below-par accommodation where their safety is potentially put at risk and where the staff who serve them are intensely unhappy about the situation. RMT representatives expressed frustration at the apparent resistance to addressing the key issues highlighted in the motion, issues that are significant in terms of the long-term ability of Serco to provide a value-for-money service. It is for this reason that the members backed industrial action by nine-to-one in the ballot. The decision made to award this contract to Serco was clearly unfortunate when management this far has been so poor. As Mike Cash, the general secretary of RMT, pointed out, and I quote again, "...our members have been unhappy with Serco's management of the iconic service from Scotland to London since the very early days of them taking on this 15-year franchise." That is yet another example of Serco winning public sector contracts and failing to deliver for the taxpayer passengers and staff. I myself used to use this service, the London Edinburgh bit, when I was an MP and perhaps the extended route into the Highlands is one of the most iconic routes that exists in the country. It is certainly a service that we can be proud of and for it to be operated by a controversial outsourcing giant and for the standards to have slipped so early in their tenu is a very serious problem that speaks volumes. There are other issues, apart from Serco itself. For example, in April of last year, the general secretary of the Transport Saladys Staff Association, Manuel Cortez, described the separate tender for ScotRail and the Caledonian sleeper as, and I quote, "...market fundamentalism of the highest order." He stated that every knowledgeable commentator argues that the biggest problem facing our industry is fragmentation. That is leading on to wider problems, obviously, about the railways, which I accept are more within the province of the UK Government than the Scottish Government. Christian Wolmer acknowledged as one of the UK's leading commentators on transport matters that again quoting, "...fragmentation is the problem, not the solution." He stated then that the only one way back to a rational cheap railway is to bring all the disparate parts together under unified control that cannot be done without reintegrating the track and the trains. End of quote. "...fragmentation leads to inefficiency and ultimately higher costs for people and the kind of lower standards attested to by the RMT." As action for rail, the campaign to put people before profit on railways argues that privatisation of railways has led to fragment, a fragmented and dysfunctional system. I'm very glad that the Labour Party at UK level has policies to address that issue. In conclusion, I hope that in future, Serco representatives will approach discussions with workers more constructively than they have in the past and with a mind to ensuring that standards are restored and maintained. My second hope is that the lessons provided both here and in previous contracts will serve as cautionary tales for future procurement decisions. Having no choice should not be a viable reason for awarding a franchise. I hope that in future the Government will provide evidence that all alternatives have been fully and properly explored and that they will consider other factors above immediate costs. Let's learn the lessons for the future, but also let's do everything we can to hasten resolution of the immediate problems. Many thanks. I now invite Derek Mackay to respond to the debate. Minister, seven minutes or so please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I congratulate Alec Rowley in raising the debate, which has allowed some discussion around very important and significant matters. I think that every member would be entitled to expect me to interrogate on hearing a number of the points, which I certainly have done. If I can reflect on the comments made on the concerns raised by Alec Rowley, I think that I have had a close look at those that you have mentioned, the members mentioned and others. There is a degree of satisfaction in the reports that I have had back. In that, for all members, I say that the discussions between the RMT and CERCO have been reported to me as making progress in issues and disputing. I think that all members have welcomed on that, but it will be for the RMT and indeed CERCO to say what their perspectives are on that progress. I think that Chick Brody has very helpfully given us the nature of the franchise that the Scottish Government has concluded to show how that can progress some of the issues. Fundamentally, the new rolling stock will make such a difference to a number of those items if the concerns have to be taken at face value, which of course we do. John Finnie carried out a very careful balancing act that I watch him do. There was a degree of respect for some of the management that you have close relations with, if for no other reason, proximity to the head office and the RMT. I know your fundamental beliefs in terms of that socialist green utopia with publicly run transport services. That is not in the current remit of how we can award contracts, but there are changes to the legislation who would have thought those changes would be coming in in a time of a Conservative Government in the UK, but there will be future options as to how real franchises could be awarded if there is that legislative change. In terms of the indemnity issues, I should say that there are conditions attached in the franchise agreement. To cover Alex Johnson's point, there are conditions to performance as well, and there are performance breaches. Of course there are penalties that are triggered in much wider studies. John Finnie. I am grateful for the minister for accepting an intervention on that point. The indemnity issue that I raised is not one that is unique to this occasion. That is a long-standing concern and an understandable concern that the RMT has had at this time. I am grateful to the minister for the concern that the RMT has had that this has made train operating companies less inclined to engage. Let me make it perfectly clear if there are any disputes. I expect operators to engage fully comprehensively to have proper dialogue and to arrive at a resolution. Ministers have to be convinced in terms of some of the conditions around franchisees' non-performance in terms of conditions that have been made to try and resolve matters so that there is certainly much to this issue of conditions that are not taken as red. I have covered the issue of penalties and, to Malcolm Chisholm, I just want to say again that I think that you should be very careful on talking about issues of putting public safety at risk. If there were health and safety issues the ORR would have something to say about it whilst recognising that there are concerns and points that have been addressed and I think that there is a programme to address much of that. We should be very careful with the language and sleeper. I respect that there has been an impact on the travelling public at a critical time over the winter period. I would want to cover some issues of performance and improvement because no one takes the issue lightly and we all want to avoid any future strike action. The reality is that the vehicles that are being used are up to 40 years old. Some of these issues aren't new in terms of the faults and the ageing nature of the rolling stock. Of course investment is long overdue but the way we have conducted the franchise will allow that investment to take place which is a benefit for the staff and the travelling public and has to be welcome as well as other benefits in the franchise such as the produce that is used the bedding and the linen and some other branding opportunities as well. Greater local benefit and benefit to Scotland is a consequence of the franchise but I recognise that faults are frustrating for passengers and staff who have to manage those conditions. We want the best possible service to reduce any sense of aggregation and agreement to grievance to the services that are provided. In terms of reviewing the maintenance plan I believe that that has been done I believe that the maintenance plan is credible and achievable and rectifying a number of the faults that have been identified but of course the big solution will be delivered. In terms of the disturbances on Christmas day and Boxing day again I think that has caused great inconvenience and hopefully will avoid that going into the future and that the work with ACAS will hopefully bring the parties closer together and I would encourage people to continue talking. In a recent parliamentary question I look specifically and answered on performance and cancellation rates against the previous year and it is significant to say that there have been a lot of negatives about the Caledonian sleeper stated but when we look at performance specifically in the last full rail period before the strike both public performance measure and right time arrival rates were actually better marginally than those in the corresponding period of the previous year to go back to that question around performance and on a pro-rata basis there were also less service cancellations than in the previous reporting year and those important facts to state when talking about the Caledonian sleeper service and in some respects it had performed better in the winter period than maybe some would have expected considering the weather issues that will face this winter. I say since March staff have benefited from a 3% pay rise in uniforms and are focused on training development I only say that because it is their attitude to customer service that has been so highly praised by guests and the travelling public across a range of media and a point which I know that Serco will reflect upon and recognise that appreciation of the value and quality that the staff add to the service they are the ambassadors for this iconic Scottish service I have touched upon the local benefit that the Scottish food and drink menus, the new bedding that has been part of the overhaul but it is the new rolling stock that I think will make the difference that new fleet of 75 dedicated sleeper carriages to be delivered by 2018 construction of which has already started and the new bespoke high quality train fleet will be offering that service that was unique to the Serco bid I have to say in terms of the franchise in preference to continuing to rely on the older stock that new overhaul those new trains I think will make a very strong difference to the quality of service that is provided but of course I am not resting on my laurels as I say I have interrogated the concerns that have been raised with me to be assured that there is a maintenance plan in place commitments around addressing the concerns of the trade unions the quality of staff is appreciated and that is why I have to continue to urge the trade unions and the operator to divert any future strike action to improve the quality of service that is paid for by the public and subsidised by the taxpayer to get the best but I do believe that the arrival of new trains will make the difference until that point comes and we have to work together in the spirit that members have done so in this chamber to ensure that progress is made thank you very much thank you minister that concludes Alex Rowley's debate our empty strike over Caledonian sleeper concerns thank you thank you